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[email protected] fullworkingstuff@yahoo.com is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

The best kind of sound system: none. 3rd balcony, not close.
Sounded completely awesome. So happy to hear music not going through
electronics. They just function at a level beyond my comprehension.
I have no idea what planet they're from. How can they play like that
without their heads exploding?

No electronic tuners, either. They tuned by ear after every song.
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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

" writes:

The best kind of sound system: none. 3rd balcony, not close.
Sounded completely awesome. So happy to hear music not going through
electronics. They just function at a level beyond my comprehension.
I have no idea what planet they're from. How can they play like that
without their heads exploding?


No electronic tuners, either. They tuned by ear after every song.


I saw Nickel Creek here a few years back. PA too loud, as usual. But at the 3rd or
fourth encore, Chris and the band did something usual. They invited the remaining
house - about 200 people - to come down close to the stage, and then they asked that
the PA be shut down. They did two more tunes huddled around at the edge of the
apron (this was in a 2800 seat house). Oh my! What an experience. It was on par with
hearing Isaac Stern, Leontine Price, et al, live, but in the modern bluegrass genre.

So consider yourself very lucky to have heard that genius level of playing truly
live, with nothing between you and the player except air. Then you strive to make
your recordings have the same impact. You might process the hell out of it, or you
might not -- but at least you now know what the greatest of the great playing
*really* feels and sounds like. (And you're right - head exploding is a risk!!!)
Congrats! (Sorry I missed it. Darn.)

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Frank Stearns wrote:

I saw Nickel Creek here a few years back. PA too loud, as usual. But at the 3rd or
fourth encore, Chris and the band did something usual. They invited the remaining
house - about 200 people - to come down close to the stage, and then they asked that
the PA be shut down. They did two more tunes huddled around at the edge of the
apron (this was in a 2800 seat house).


35 or 40 years ago, I saw Benny Goodman at Constitution Hall in
Washington. He came out on stage, walked up to the one microphone in
front of the band and said "Is this mic on?" When the audience responded
that it was, he said "Please turn it off, and leave it off for the rest
of the show." No problem at all hearing the band, and everything was
well balanced.

I've seen Flatt & Scruggs, Bill Monroe, The Stanley Brothers, Doc
Watson, Del McCoury, even Merle Travis without a sound system.
But you just can't make a living any more playing to houses small and
quiet enough to work without amplification if you're a pop act. Nickel
Creek made their nickel on the 2800 who came to see them, and working
barefoot for the last 200 stragglers was a nice bonus.

Edgar Meyer and Chris Thiele do essentially a classical act, and that's
still performed without amplification much of the time. When you have
drums and amplified instruments on stage, though, it's darn near
impossible to for a band to balance themselves because it's just too
loud too hear well enough to play as a group.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Mike Rivers wrote:

Edgar Meyer and Chris Thiele do essentially a classical act, and that's
still performed without amplification much of the time. When you have
drums and amplified instruments on stage, though, it's darn near
impossible to for a band to balance themselves because it's just too
loud too hear well enough to play as a group.


So, the solution is to use a PA system to make it even louder!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...

Edgar Meyer and Chris Thiele do essentially a classical act, and that's
still performed without amplification much of the time. When you have
drums and amplified instruments on stage, though, it's darn near
impossible to for a band to balance themselves because it's just too loud
too hear well enough to play as a group.


IME its the acoustic drums that make it so difficult to balance the group.

Amplified instruments can be turned down, but quiet drummers are hard to
find.




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George's Pro Sound Company George's Pro Sound Company is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night


"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...
" writes:

The best kind of sound system: none. 3rd balcony, not close.
Sounded completely awesome. So happy to hear music not going through
electronics. They just function at a level beyond my comprehension.
I have no idea what planet they're from. How can they play like that
without their heads exploding?


No electronic tuners, either. They tuned by ear after every song.


I saw Nickel Creek here a few years back. PA too loud, as usual. But at
the 3rd or
fourth encore, Chris and the band did something usual. They invited the
remaining
house - about 200 people - to come down close to the stage, and then they
asked that
the PA be shut down. They did two more tunes huddled around at the edge of
the
apron (this was in a 2800 seat house). Oh my! What an experience. It was
on par with
hearing Isaac Stern, Leontine Price, et al, live, but in the modern
bluegrass genre.

So consider yourself very lucky to have heard that genius level of playing
truly
live, with nothing between you and the player except air. Then you strive
to make
your recordings have the same impact. You might process the hell out of
it, or you
might not -- but at least you now know what the greatest of the great
playing
*really* feels and sounds like. (And you're right - head exploding is a
risk!!!)
Congrats! (Sorry I missed it. Darn.)

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

and some of us labor to do that with a sound system
reinforce, not over produce
I have even accomplished it a few times
once with a sitar/tabla show that brought tears to ones eyes from the beauty
of it

it can be done, but it's a lot of work with lots of really expensive stuff

BTW I am so jealous of every one that went to that show
I saw Edgar,Douglas and barrenburg,(hop,skip,and wobble tour) it stands out
as a show above all other shows
George
..


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

"George's Pro Sound Company" writes:

and some of us labor to do that with a sound system
reinforce, not over produce
I have even accomplished it a few times
once with a sitar/tabla show that brought tears to ones eyes from the beauty
of it


it can be done, but it's a lot of work with lots of really expensive stuff


You know, I'm glad you brought this up.

You're right - it can be done up the limits of the physics and the state of the art;
the trick is a painstaking balance and tuning of the system by someone with
musical/good hi-fi studio ears who can still hear above 5 Khz and who has musical
sensitivity along with knowing when it sounds like a cruddy PA and when it sounds
right, like real music, and going that extra mile to get there, just like for a very
hifi record. And it takes continuous anal attention to system health details from
microphones to speaker boxes to support all the other hard work.

Beyond good hardware the keys seems to be rational volumes, tonal (and compensating
EQ) awareness of phase issues from multiple mics on stage and multiple, co-mingled
"sound pools" from mains, monitors, on stage sources, and the room itself. Whadda
soup!! But sometimes it can taste pretty good if all the "spice" is balanced just
right.

In fact, a Big Secret here of why some live recordings sound so engaging is the
capture of that spice. Call me crazy, but in my location work with amplified shows I
embrace stage bleed (within reason), though some of my clients grumble when they
can't autotune so easily because of it. g

My general thanks to you that you seem to be aware and can tune & mix PA
appropriately.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Arny Krueger wrote:

Amplified instruments can be turned down, but quiet drummers are hard to
find.


It's difficult to find an electric guitarist who will turn down and keep
it turned down. Mostly because the drummer won't turn down.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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George's Pro Sound Company George's Pro Sound Company is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

Amplified instruments can be turned down, but quiet drummers are hard to
find.


It's difficult to find an electric guitarist who will turn down and keep
it turned down. Mostly because the drummer won't turn down.

one of the reasons I don't play out much, everyone is a expert at turning up
the PA system
I get arguments over how to do sound from the guy who cut the carton his 15
inch pyle speaker was shipped in and mounted his speaker in the cardboard,
it was pretty free from resonances though :-)


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drichard drichard is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Hi,

I've seen Chris Thile something like 10 times in Nickel Creek, Punch
Brothers, and Mutual Admiration Society. On two different occasions,
like you, I saw Nickel Creek do an encore without amplification. It
really was a wonderful experience. Last year Punch Brothers did an
encore all grouped around a single mic, which was also quite
impressive.

I haven't heard Edgar Meyer, but Chris does seem like he is from
another planet. He has an ability to comprehend complex musical pieces
and (while playing with energy, joy and intensity) literally toy with
the melody, harmony, and rhythm in a completely pleasing manner. An
astounding musician.

If want to be amazed, or if you just want to feel humbled as a
musician, go back and listen to the album he made when he was 12 or 13
years old. The title is "Leading Off", and the musicianship is
astounding.

Dean


On Oct 30, 11:33*am, Frank Stearns
wrote:
" writes:
The best kind of sound system: *none. * 3rd balcony, not close.
Sounded completely awesome. * So happy to hear music not going through
electronics. *They just function at a level beyond my comprehension.
I have no idea what planet they're from. *How can they play like that
without their heads exploding?
No electronic tuners, either. *They tuned by ear after every song.


I saw Nickel Creek here a few years back. PA too loud, as usual. But at the 3rd or
fourth encore, Chris and the band did something usual. They invited the remaining
house - about 200 people - to come down close to the stage, and then they asked that
the PA be shut down. They did two more tunes huddled around at the edge of the
apron (this was in a 2800 seat house). Oh my! What an experience. It was on par with
hearing Isaac Stern, Leontine Price, et al, live, but in the modern bluegrass genre.

So consider yourself very lucky to have heard that genius level of playing truly
live, with nothing between you and the player except air. Then you strive to make
your recordings have the same impact. You might process the hell out of it, or you
might not -- but at least you now know what the greatest of the great playing
*really* feels and sounds like. (And you're right - head exploding is a risk!!!)
Congrats! (Sorry I missed it. Darn.)

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--
*.




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Paul Stamler Paul Stamler is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

"drichard" wrote in message
...

If want to be amazed, or if you just want to feel humbled as a
musician, go back and listen to the album he made when he was 12 or 13
years old. The title is "Leading Off", and the musicianship is
astounding.

I had the pleasure of running sound for him once back then. He was a
delightful person then, and from everything I've heard remains one.

Peace,
Paul


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Glenn Carlson wrote:

Bottom line, real talent doesn't need the tricks, unless of course it is a
huge room and then the laws of physics come into play.


Unfortunately, it's not about the laws of physics, it's about the laws
of economics. An unknown Amy Grant might be willing to play in a church
with just her guitar and a pianist, but "real talent" (that is, those
with the talent and backing to make large amounts of money with their
music performances) can't afford to play acoustic gigs for a couple of
hundred people. Not unless they can set up small gigs with high enough
ticket prices so that they can maintain their standard of living. If
they need to walk away from a gig with $100,000 and want to play for 200
people, tickets need to be $500. I know some people will pay that. Maybe
they should try. Who should we book first?

The sad part is that we have so very little real talent these days.
I've been listening to the local radio station for the past 2 hours while
taking care of work and every song sounds like an updated 50
s tune with c am f g and back again only with a croaker vocal.....
It's terrible.


We have a lot of good talent these days, though some of it has been
around for many years and is still going. You're just listening to the
wrong radio stations. But it's easy to find a lot of manufactured pop
that doesn't have a lot of staying power but can be a good live show if
you protect your ears.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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George's Pro Sound Company George's Pro Sound Company is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
Glenn Carlson wrote:

Bottom line, real talent doesn't need the tricks, unless of course it is
a
huge room and then the laws of physics come into play.


Unfortunately, it's not about the laws of physics, it's about the laws of
economics. An unknown Amy Grant might be willing to play in a church with
just her guitar and a pianist, but "real talent" (that is, those with the
talent and backing to make large amounts of money with their music
performances) can't afford to play acoustic gigs for a couple of hundred
people. Not unless they can set up small gigs with high enough ticket
prices so that they can maintain their standard of living. If they need to
walk away from a gig with $100,000 and want to play for 200 people,
tickets need to be $500. I know some people will pay that. Maybe they
should try. Who should we book first?


on the last tour Simon and Garfunkle were playing 5-8000seat venues and
people were paying 20$ PER SONG, each and every one of the 8000
and I dare say they got more than their moneys worth

also some shows just can not be pulled off standing on the stage edge , the
huge audience generates its own huge energy, I saw Springsteen perform solo
acoustic without a PA, I was NOWHERE near the concerts he played in the 70's
with the E streeters

a sound system is just a tool to use when trying to reach a audience
it can be used to great ends, or it can be carelessly deployed and run with
complete disregard for the end result, The Rolling Stones for example, worst
PA sound I have ever heard I was 4 songs into the show before I recognized
a single word, same venue Pink Floyd comes in with the division bell and I
feel as though I am wearing high end headphones

done wrong , as it is all too often, the pa interferes with the concert
done right and there is no other experience that matches
George


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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

drichard wrote:

I haven't heard Edgar Meyer, but Chris does seem like he is from
another planet. He has an ability to comprehend complex musical pieces
and (while playing with energy, joy and intensity) literally toy with
the melody, harmony, and rhythm in a completely pleasing manner. An
astounding musician.


You need to hear Edgar...

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar
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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:


Edgar Meyer and Chris Thiele do essentially a classical act, and
that's still performed without amplification much of the time. When
you have drums and amplified instruments on stage, though, it's darn
near impossible to for a band to balance themselves because it's
just too loud too hear well enough to play as a group.


So, the solution is to use a PA system to make it even louder!


Nah ... a small practice type drum kit has excellent mileage. And using
gentler implements to bash them there drums and cymbals with. It's kinda
like piano accompanying .... they good keyboard operators have enugh control
of what they do to keep the lid open for good sound. Not playing lead
instrument is a very special kind of stardom much cherished by other
musicians.

--scott


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Peter Larsen wrote:

Nah ... a small practice type drum kit has excellent mileage. And using
gentler implements to bash them there drums and cymbals with.


This is completely changing the sound and role of the drums. Some groups
can accommodate this, others can't, and some just plain don't wanna.
It's not just something you can tell them to do and they do it.

If we could do that, we could tell people to sing in tune and we
wouldn't have to tune vocals to keep up with the Britneys.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Saw Chris Thile and Edgar Meyer at Carnegie Hall last night

Mike Rivers wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

Nah ... a small practice type drum kit has excellent mileage. And using
gentler implements to bash them there drums and cymbals with.


This is completely changing the sound and role of the drums. Some groups
can accommodate this, others can't, and some just plain don't wanna.
It's not just something you can tell them to do and they do it.


I think it's the other way around. The small practice-type kit is the
way trap sets used to be, before there was PA. What has happened is
that the availability of PA has changed the sound and role of the drums.

If we could do that, we could tell people to sing in tune and we
wouldn't have to tune vocals to keep up with the Britneys.


I do that all the time. Sometimes it is futile but I keep trying anyway.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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