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robertjwarren robertjwarren is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?

Thanks

Jud Warren
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

In article ,
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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robertjwarren robertjwarren is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Thanks...running Windows XP

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running.
--scott

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robertjwarren robertjwarren is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

So how is USB converted to ethernet?

Thanks

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running.
--scott

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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

robertjwarren writes:

So how is USB converted to ethernet?


Share them?

--RY


Thanks

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files)
wirelessly over my network. How have any of you set this up?


USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running.
--scott


--
% Randy Yates % "She tells me that she likes me very much,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % but when I try to touch, she makes it
%%% 919-577-9882 % all too clear."
%%%% % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


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Jay Ts Jay Ts is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Scott Dorsey wrote:
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


I wrote a book on it: Using Samba (2nd edition), O'Reilly Media.

USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running. --scott


Correct. If your network is all Windows, just use Windows Networking.
Find the drive's icon, right-click, and make it into a share. Assuming
your network is set up sanely, the share should show up in the Network
Neighborhood on other Windows systems on the LAN.

If you have Linux/Unix and/or Mac OS X systems on the network, you
can run Samba on them to emulate Windows Networking for file and
printer sharing, and use them as file servers. There are also
tools in the Samba suite that allow Linux/Unix/OSX systems to act
as clients when the files are hosted by any OS.

If your network has no Windows systems on it, then you might find
it easier to share the files using NFS (Network File System).

Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php
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Laurence Payne[_2_] Laurence Payne[_2_] is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 01:14:35 GMT, robertjwarren
wrote:

So how is USB converted to ethernet?


Everyone's assuming you'll have them attached to a networked computer,
which makes the job so trivial it hardly seemed worth asking the
question :-)

There are stand-alone boxes that host a printer and connect it to a
network. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar (or even the
same box) would host one or more drives. Anyone know?
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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Jay Ts writes:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
robertjwarren wrote:
I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


I wrote a book on it: Using Samba (2nd edition), O'Reilly Media.

USB drives are just like any other disk drives. You can serve them out
remotely with SMB or nfs or what have you. Which one is easiest depends
on what operating system you're running. --scott


Correct. If your network is all Windows, just use Windows Networking.
Find the drive's icon, right-click, and make it into a share. Assuming
your network is set up sanely, the share should show up in the Network
Neighborhood on other Windows systems on the LAN.

If you have Linux/Unix and/or Mac OS X systems on the network, you
can run Samba on them to emulate Windows Networking for file and
printer sharing, and use them as file servers. There are also
tools in the Samba suite that allow Linux/Unix/OSX systems to act
as clients when the files are hosted by any OS.

If your network has no Windows systems on it, then you might find
it easier to share the files using NFS (Network File System).


I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my wife's (both
Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the faint-of-heart. Even
for me, it was a bit painful to setup.

By the way, Jay, it's a "Bb" clarinet...
--
% Randy Yates % "The dreamer, the unwoken fool -
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % in dreams, no pain will kiss the brow..."
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Eldorado Overture', *Eldorado*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
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Nick Brown Nick Brown is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 01:14:35 GMT, robertjwarren
wrote:

So how is USB converted to ethernet?

Thanks


The Linksys NSLU2 used to be a fairly popular choice for doing that;
seems it's now been replaced by the NAS200.

You can have a couple of drives fitted internally, and/or a couple of
external drives attached via USB ports, then you'd connect it via an
ethernet cable to your existing wireless access point.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/networ...ksys-NAS200/p1

-Nick
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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robertjwarren wrote:
So how is USB converted to ethernet?


It isn't, really. When you connect the drive to a computer on the
network, it becomes just like any other drive on the network. If you set
it up for sharing, you can access it from other computers on the network
whether they're wireless or wired. But the drive has to be connected to
a computer on the network.

There are drives (drive enclosures, really, with a drive pre-installed)
that have an Ethernet port and an IP address. You can (in theory - I
don't have have one so I've never tried it) connect it to a port on your
network router and access it from any other computer on the network via
its IP address.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Laurence Payne wrote:

There are stand-alone boxes that host a printer and connect it to a
network. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar (or even the
same box) would host one or more drives. Anyone know?


Yes, this is called "Network Attached Storage" and there are a number of
dedicated pieces of hardware that do nothing but high volume disk service.
For the most part, this stuff is not cheap because the only time you'd
really want to do something like this is when you have high bandwidth
requirements.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Jay Ts Jay Ts is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Randy Yates wrote:
Jay Ts writes:
If your network has no Windows systems on it, then you might find it
easier to share the files using NFS (Network File System).


I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my wife's (both
Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the faint-of-heart. Even
for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Depends ... I think it's probably a lot easier using Yast on OpenSUSE,
which is what I'm running nowadays. (I wouldn't know because I just
type in a couple of text files, restart the daemons, and it works.)

With either NFS or Samba, there are many "gotchas" involved. (It's
networking, not exactly the simplest technology ever developed!)

Aside from the "gotchas", NFS is actually a lot simpler to manage
than Samba, which has hundreds of configuration options, many
different authentication schemes, and swims in the dark, murky,
proprietary, closed and undocumented waters of Windows Networking.

Anyway, the easiest way to get the OP up and running is to plug
2 Windows systems into a router (all with default settings) and
set up the share with a few mouse clicks. Sad, I know, but that's
life.

By the way, Jay, it's a "Bb" clarinet...


B-flat, I know. I can even make a few squacky sounds with it on
a good day! I'd include the proper "flat" symbol, but I don't want
to count on websites to support Unicode characters. In actually, it's
"Clarinet B" which follows "Clarinet A", which is no longer online. ;-)

Jay Ts
http://jayts.imagekind.com
http://jayts.redbubble.com
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php
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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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Jay Ts writes:

Randy Yates wrote:
Jay Ts writes:
If your network has no Windows systems on it, then you might find it
easier to share the files using NFS (Network File System).


I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my wife's (both
Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the faint-of-heart. Even
for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Depends ... I think it's probably a lot easier using Yast on OpenSUSE,
which is what I'm running nowadays. (I wouldn't know because I just
type in a couple of text files, restart the daemons, and it works.)

With either NFS or Samba, there are many "gotchas" involved. (It's
networking, not exactly the simplest technology ever developed!)

Aside from the "gotchas", NFS is actually a lot simpler to manage
than Samba, which has hundreds of configuration options, many
different authentication schemes, and swims in the dark, murky,
proprietary, closed and undocumented waters of Windows Networking.


I concede that point. I didn't mean to imply that Samba was easier than
NFS, just that NFS itself isn't all that easy. I haven't seen or used
Yast - sounds like a wonderful tool.

I definitely agree about Samba - I tried setting up Samba on a Fedora
machine that was part of a Windows network two years ago. I failed - it
never worked! It was really, really confusing - perhaps I'll buy your
book if I need to do that in the future.

Anyway, the easiest way to get the OP up and running is to plug
2 Windows systems into a router (all with default settings) and
set up the share with a few mouse clicks. Sad, I know, but that's
life.


OK, so Microsoft got one or two things right... I'm STILL sticking
with linux to cover the other 4817.

By the way, Jay, it's a "Bb" clarinet...


B-flat, I know. I can even make a few squacky sounds with it on
a good day! I'd include the proper "flat" symbol, but I don't want
to count on websites to support Unicode characters. In actually, it's
"Clarinet B" which follows "Clarinet A", which is no longer
online. ;-)


Ahh - now I see your method.
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
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Andre Majorel Andre Majorel is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

On 2008-10-25, Randy Yates wrote:

I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my
wife's (both Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the
faint-of-heart. Even for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Configuring Samba was not significantly easier for me than
configuring NFS.

Samba is worth knowing for one thing, though : SMB/CIFS is much
simpler to route through a firewall than NFS. Not that it's
always a good idea to do so, but that's another story.

--
André Majorel URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not
the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists -- Abbie Hoffman.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Andre Majorel wrote:
On 2008-10-25, Randy Yates wrote:

I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my
wife's (both Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the
faint-of-heart. Even for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Configuring Samba was not significantly easier for me than
configuring NFS.


They both are pretty easy. You start the server and client daemons, then
you tell the server what filesystems to serve out. Then you tell the client
what filesystems to mount.

If you're using the automounter for either one, or you are using some sort
of sophisticated security like kerberos, it can become a little bit
cumbersome, but neither one should be all that big a deal. The configuration
files are pretty well-documented and are human-readable.

Samba is worth knowing for one thing, though : SMB/CIFS is much
simpler to route through a firewall than NFS. Not that it's
always a good idea to do so, but that's another story.


It is a really, really bad idea to run NFS or SMB over a WAN with any degree
of latency. There are protocols like AFS and DFS that are designed for that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Andre Majorel wrote:
On 2008-10-25, Randy Yates wrote:

I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my
wife's (both Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the
faint-of-heart. Even for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Configuring Samba was not significantly easier for me than
configuring NFS.


They both are pretty easy.


Easy for whom? A certified IT administrator? Yeah, MAYBE.

You start the server and client daemons, t


Huh? There IS no client daemon. Rather, you mount the remote filesystem
using either the mount command or the /etc/fstab table. If you use the
/etc/fstab method (which is the most common), you must make decisions on
the mount options, the dump option, and the filesystem check.

The mount options include access permisions, read block sizes, write
block sizes, port number, hard mounting options, and a myriad of other
options too long to go into here.

On the server side, there really isn't just one "server" involved in
serving NFS files but three: rpc.mountd, nfsd, and rpc.rquotad.

Then you decide the actual paths you want to service out, who can
use them, and what permissions they can use them with, in the
/etc/exports file.

And I haven't even gotten into problems that can happen with NFS, such
as when the user id on one computer doesn't match the user id on
another.

Oh yeah... REAL SIMPLE.
--
% Randy Yates % "She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % on, and she's also a telephone."
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Randy Yates wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Easy for whom? A certified IT administrator? Yeah, MAYBE.

You start the server and client daemons, t


Huh? There IS no client daemon. Rather, you mount the remote filesystem
using either the mount command or the /etc/fstab table. If you use the
/etc/fstab method (which is the most common), you must make decisions on
the mount options, the dump option, and the filesystem check.


With SMB you get the client daemon, with NFS you don't, and everything is
built into the kernal.

Thing is, the machines are shipped with everything built into the kernal,
you don't need to add this stuff as a layered product anymore or
anything.

And yes, you can mount by hand from the terminal or you can put it in
/etc/fstab or /etc/dfstab and let the OS do it on boot time. Or you
can use the automounter and have the automounter mount them automatically
only when they are needed (which is the most convenient thing to do as
long as you don't mind a little latency the first time you access a remote
file).

The mount options include access permisions, read block sizes, write
block sizes, port number, hard mounting options, and a myriad of other
options too long to go into here.


Yup, and today you can just leave them all set to the defaults. Back in
the ages of Version 2 NFS, you often had to fiddle with that stuff, and
making SGI products talk to anybody else's NFS implementation was a major
exercise in frustration (aided by the SGI development guys on the phone
telling you how much better their NFS implementation was and how all your
problems are Sun's fault).

It's not like that any more! You just use the defaults and it works!

On the server side, there really isn't just one "server" involved in
serving NFS files but three: rpc.mountd, nfsd, and rpc.rquotad.


You don't really need quotad if you aren't running quotas. And depending
on your implementation you might need lockd. And back in the old days
you'd usually have to turn the portmapper on because it wasn't running by
default.

These days you just turn everything on when you configure the system
and it all just works. With NetBSD, the default rc scripts look for
the relevant configuration files and start up nfs if they notice that
you are sharing anything. It's all seamless (until it breaks).

Then you decide the actual paths you want to service out, who can
use them, and what permissions they can use them with, in the
/etc/exports file.


Yup.

And I haven't even gotten into problems that can happen with NFS, such
as when the user id on one computer doesn't match the user id on
another.

Oh yeah... REAL SIMPLE.


If you think this is bad, try using SMB with remote authentication!
Honestly, NFS has a lot of stuff going on underneath, but most people
don't need to see that, and the default configurations all work pretty
well unless you're trying to talk to something weird. There was a day
when people setting up NFS had to spend a lot of time worrying about
block sizes and rebuilding the kernal, but not any more.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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[...]
If you think this is bad, try using SMB with remote authentication!
Honestly, NFS has a lot of stuff going on underneath, but most people
don't need to see that, and the default configurations all work pretty
well unless you're trying to talk to something weird. There was a day
when people setting up NFS had to spend a lot of time worrying about
block sizes and rebuilding the kernal, but not any more.


Well, I think your "simple" has to be taken in the context of a
person well-versed in unix. For a person like the OP, this is
light-years out of reach.
--
% Randy Yates % "She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % on, and she's also a telephone."
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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philicorda writes:

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:40:57 -0400, Randy Yates wrote:

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Andre Majorel wrote:
On 2008-10-25, Randy Yates wrote:

I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my wife's
(both Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the
faint-of-heart. Even for me, it was a bit painful to setup.

Configuring Samba was not significantly easier for me than configuring
NFS.

They both are pretty easy.


Easy for whom? A certified IT administrator? Yeah, MAYBE.


Ubuntu is somewhat easier.
You right click on a folder and select 'Sharing Options'.
If you don't have NFS or SMB installed, then it grabs them from the net.

Then a dialog box opens and you click 'Ok'. The rest of the configuration
is automatic.

There is even a tick box marked 'Guest access - for people without a user
account'. Not good for a webserver. Good for a home user who wants it to
work right now.

There is lots that could still go wrong, but I think they have made some
progress.


An excellent point. I'm actually running Ubuntu (8.04LTS) on my laptop
and have been VERY impressed with it - especially the ease in wireless
networking setup.
--
% Randy Yates % "My Shangri-la has gone away, fading like
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % the Beatles on 'Hey Jude'"
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Shangri-La', *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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Randy Yates writes:

[...]
If you think this is bad, try using SMB with remote authentication!
Honestly, NFS has a lot of stuff going on underneath, but most people
don't need to see that, and the default configurations all work pretty
well unless you're trying to talk to something weird. There was a day
when people setting up NFS had to spend a lot of time worrying about
block sizes and rebuilding the kernal, but not any more.


Well, I think your "simple" has to be taken in the context of a
person well-versed in unix. For a person like the OP, this is
light-years out of reach.


I should rephrase: "For a person like the OP, this is *still*
light-years out of reach."
--
% Randy Yates % "With time with what you've learned,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % they'll kiss the ground you walk
%%% 919-577-9882 % upon."
%%%% % '21st Century Man', *Time*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com
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Andre Majorel Andre Majorel is offline
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On 2008-10-25, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Andre Majorel wrote:
On 2008-10-25, Randy Yates wrote:

I use NFS to share some photos between my computer and my
wife's (both Fedora boxes) and I would NOT recommend it to the
faint-of-heart. Even for me, it was a bit painful to setup.


Configuring Samba was not significantly easier for me than
configuring NFS.


They both are pretty easy. You start the server and client
daemons, then you tell the server what filesystems to serve
out. Then you tell the client what filesystems to mount.


Like many things, it's difficult the first time, because you
don't know where to look. And, when you do, you don't know which
1% of these badly written documents you need to understand and
which 99% can be ignored because it doesn't apply to you.

Once you know which files to edit and which daemons to restart,
it's a piece of cake.

Samba is worth knowing for one thing, though : SMB/CIFS is much
simpler to route through a firewall than NFS. Not that it's
always a good idea to do so, but that's another story.


It is a really, really bad idea to run NFS or SMB over a WAN
with any degree of latency. There are protocols like AFS and
DFS that are designed for that.


But if you need to share a file system between a machine in a
DMZ and another on the LAN, SMB does the job. AFS and friends
might be even better, I'm just not familiar with them.

There's also NFS over TCP but that doesn't solve the portmapper
problem (I think).

--
André Majorel URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not
the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists -- Abbie Hoffman.
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Jay Ts Jay Ts is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Randy Yates wrote:
I definitely agree about Samba - I tried setting up Samba on a Fedora
machine that was part of a Windows network two years ago. I failed - it
never worked! It was really, really confusing - perhaps I'll buy your
book if I need to do that in the future.


I checked just now, and the edition of Using Samba for which I
was lead author is still available for free on the Samba Team's
website:

http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/using_samba/toc.html

This is perfectly legit, since the book has an Open Content copyright.
So go ahead and read it for free if you want.

Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"robertjwarren" wrote in message
...
Thanks...running Windows XP


No big deal.

If you plug a USB drive into a computer, by default it appears as a drive
with a certain drive letter.

The drive shares like any other drive.

If you browse it from another computer, you can access it like any other
drive.

In fact I just did this with the USB flash drive on my keychain, and it
worked flawlessly.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"robertjwarren" wrote in message
...

So how is USB converted to ethernet?


If this is an XP computer, then XP's network and disk management and network
manament protocols and protocol stacks do all the heavy lifting.

At some level, a USB drive is like any other drive.

Within its obvious limits (size, speed, etc.) it works like any other drive.
The USB interface is completely encapsulated.




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Phil W Phil W is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 01:14:35 GMT, robertjwarren
wrote:

So how is USB converted to ethernet?


Everyone's assuming you'll have them attached to a networked computer,
which makes the job so trivial it hardly seemed worth asking the
question :-)


Well, that´s not the only option nowadays! ;-)

There are stand-alone boxes that host a printer and connect it to a
network. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar (or even the
same box) would host one or more drives. Anyone know?


Probably, you´re talking about "NAS" boxes - a kind of "small disk servers"
with Ethernet connection.

There are also routers (e.g. with built-in DSL or cable modem) with USB
connectors. So, it´s possible to connect drives or printers to directly to
the router. Which allows access to the USB devices with having it connected
to a computer in the network.

For example:
http://www.avm.de/en/Produkte/FRITZB...70/index.php##
http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satel...=2847933028B01

This is stuff for home use and usually easy to setup. Unfortunately, I don´t
have any experience, how well it works - in theory, everything should be
fine. ;-)


Phil


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Chris Hornbeck Chris Hornbeck is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:15:04 GMT, robertjwarren
wrote:

I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?


"In these Days of Modern Times" when computers powerful enough
to serve multiple audio files can't even be given away (literally
true even here in Flyover America), a "Media Node" (copyrighted
herewith) may be appropriate.

A Media Node (copyrighted!) is an older computer repurposed to
sit on an Ethernet network and connect it's own internal (my
astonishing innovation on your obvious idea) hard drive, and
any connected media, of any kind, including your obvious idea
of USB hard drives, to Ethernet, including wireless of all
kinds.

See how easy (after paying off the lawyers) it was for me to
become a Gazillioneer? Now, how do I get to ride up into Space?
Yeah, I'm a little bit older, but I can still sign the papers.
Sign me up.



Much thanks, and keep 'em flyin,
Chris Hornbeck
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[email protected] yokl@yahoo.com is offline
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Default Access to hard drives over a network

google for NAS or NDAS drive enclosure. It may or may not have the
transfer speeds you want depending on your wireless bandwidth.

robertjwarren wrote:

I would like to access multiple USB hard drives (audio files) wirelessly
over my network. How have any of you set this up?

Thanks

Jud Warren

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