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John Williamson wrote: "Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter? "

I believe Brainworx already has something along
those lines:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsnqs8AU24
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On 11/02/2017 13:10, wrote:
John Williamson wrote: "Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter? "

I believe Brainworx already has something along
those lines:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsnqs8AU24

Exactly the same main display on each channel as the main indication,
down to the decay time of the peak block, with added bells and whistles
showing an average and peak loudness over the last few seconds on a
different part of the display. Better, but I'd only be happy if I were
using it on a unit with plenty of spare processing power. Better in some
ways, but with more to distract the operator from short term overloads,
which are the main problem when recording digitally, especially a live
or one off performance.

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John Williamson:

Agreed on the simplicity note! I'm
in favor of two(left & right) vertical
meters, with the lower average portion
in green, and the upper portion in yellow,
fading to red as it approaches full scale.

The green portion gently rises and falls
according to a loudness algorithm, while
the upper yellow red portion moves very
quickly up and down, corresponding to
peaks. I know someobody can program
this!
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Scott Dorsey writes:

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from Gabe Weiner was to get
an outboard RTW digital meter. I did this thing and never looked back.


True. But this (show on which I'm stuck with a Sound Devices recorder)
is just a sitcom. No high crest factor waveforms to record - except for
the sticks, heh.

I do have plenty of my own gear, but in this case Fox has a deal with
Sony to supply equipment, so they're not going to rent any of mine.

Billy Y..
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Mike Rivers writes:

I can't imagine anyone making a recording and keeping their eyes
glued to a meter.


And regardless, that's not the point.

Those Sound Devices machines have all sorts things on their menus.
Are you sure there aren't alternative metering displays?


The only user accessable parameter is the peak hold time. It's
configurable in one second increments from 0 to 5.

You do realize, don't you, that knowing how close you are to reaching
full scale level is pretty important in the digital world? Some people
appreciate being informed.


You do realize that the floating descenders have absolutely no bearing
any actual level, don't you?

It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on
until you reset it.


...and I don't see how this can be.


Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full
scale peak. You don't know if that was a fluke or if your've been
banging the meter up there for a while.


So how exactly do these floating display segments distinguish between
a fluke (one over) and banging the meter (more than one over)?

The way I work is I set the peak hold time to 2 seconds. Then I listen
to what I'm recording. If I hear something crap out, I'll then look at
the recorder to see which track had the problem. If it craps out more
than once, I'll hear it. And -- when I'm looking at this the one thing
I don't need if useless visual clutter right in the middle of what I
need to see. You may compare it to animated ads on a web page.. Heh.

Most metering software does not do this. The Protools Venue consoles
turn the entire meter red, while it's still displaying audio amplitude,
but most everyone just displays the peak for the set peak hold time
(unless another higher level peak occurs first), then extinguishes it.

This is _entirely_ adequate.

Billy Y..
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John Williamson writes, quoting geoff:

And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ?
And a distraction of meaningless false information .

An alternative would be for the meter display showing the peak to stay
lit for a fixed time, then be replaced by the next peak and so on.


This is exactly how most people do it. See my previous note.

This would give a flashing display, which would be more distracting and
even less informative than the slow drop until the next peak.


Flashing? Have you actually seen this style of metering in operation?
The segment displaying the peak amplitude remains continuously lit for
the entire duration of the user configured peak hold time. Unless a
higher amplitude peak occurs first. Yes, there can be some movement,
but nothing even remotely close to what I would call flashing.

It is extremely common.

Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter?


Again, there is no need to reinvent the wheel here, this way is entirely
adequate...

Billy Y..
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On 2/11/2017 10:41 AM, wrote:

You do realize that the floating descenders have absolutely no bearing
any actual level, don't you?


Yes, I realize that.

So how exactly do these floating display segments distinguish between
a fluke (one over) and banging the meter (more than one over)?


I don't know, but I'd enjoy having your recorder to play with if you
hate it so much. Maybe after using it for a while I'll find a good reason.

The way I work is I set the peak hold time to 2 seconds. Then I listen
to what I'm recording. If I hear something crap out, I'll then look at
the recorder to see which track had the problem. If it craps out more
than once, I'll hear it. And -- when I'm looking at this the one thing
I don't need if useless visual clutter right in the middle of what I
need to see. You may compare it to animated ads on a web page.. Heh.


Then I'd suggest putting a strip of gaffer tape over the screen. Or
maybe there's an option for turning it off. Once you've set levels and
you're monitoring the recording, you really have no need for meters.

Does Sound Devices have anything to say about this? Is there an
explanation in the manual that might make it more sensible to you? Does
anyone else complain about it?

You're really ****ing in the wind here, you know. Zip up and move on.


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Mike Rivers wrote: "Once you've set levels and you're monitoring the recording, you really
have no need for meters"

From the "use your ears not your eyes crowd",
ehh? Bet'ya removed the speedo from your
cars too!

sheHeezussss...
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In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 11/02/2017 13:10, wrote:
John Williamson wrote: "Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter? "

I believe Brainworx already has something along
those lines:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsnqs8AU24

Exactly the same main display on each channel as the main indication,
down to the decay time of the peak block, with added bells and whistles
showing an average and peak loudness over the last few seconds on a
different part of the display. Better, but I'd only be happy if I were
using it on a unit with plenty of spare processing power. Better in some
ways, but with more to distract the operator from short term overloads,
which are the main problem when recording digitally, especially a live
or one off performance.


There actually is an EBU standard for combined metering.... I don't recall
it offhand, but the RTW meters follow it.
--scott


--
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In article , Mike Rivers wrote:

Does Sound Devices have anything to say about this? Is there an
explanation in the manual that might make it more sensible to you? Does
anyone else complain about it?

You're really ****ing in the wind here, you know. Zip up and move on.


When you pay as much as Sound Devices charges, you deserve to have the
customer support people at least explain why the metering is the way it
is, if not have the development people give you a firmware patch to make
it exactly the way you like it. I think some of Billy's issue here is
that Sound Devices isn't even returning his phone calls.

As a Nagra fan, I can do little more than just nod my head.
--scott

--
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Mike Rivers writes:

Then I'd suggest putting a strip of gaffer tape over the screen. Or
maybe there's an option for turning it off. Once you've set levels and
you're monitoring the recording, you really have no need for meters.


This is just plain silly. Idiotic, actually.

Does Sound Devices have anything to say about this?


No. And they have been directly asked.

Is there an explanation in the manual that might make it more sensible
to you?


No.

Does anyone else complain about it?


I have no idea, but that's got nothing to do with it being wrong.

Billy Y..
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Scott Dorsey writes:

When you pay as much as Sound Devices charges, you deserve to have the
customer support people at least explain why the metering is the way it
is, if not have the development people give you a firmware patch to make
it exactly the way you like it. I think some of Billy's issue here is
that Sound Devices isn't even returning his phone calls.


Sony bought a bunch of these when they were new, and I was the first
user of them. There were more than a few bugs and problems, which I
submitted to Sound Devices. A few got some attention, but most just
generated a lot of 'happy talk' and were otherwise ignored. When they
disabled the "-" key (something I use frequently) and then lied to me
about it, things began going down hill quickly. Yeah, it did work,
until they killed it. What makes it even more ridiculous is Sound
Devices will not allow mono wave files to be recorded on CF cards,
but they _still_ disable the dash in this mode - coz, as I've said,
the use it as the track number delimiter, and obviously can't write
code that knows the last "-" in a filename string is a track number
delimiter. Sad.

This metering, by the way, is amongst the many things ignored.

As a Nagra fan, I can do little more than just nod my head.


I like them, too. I also have great respect for TASCAM. Their guy
(Tom Duffy) actually came to the studios, more than once, watched how
we work, and totally delivered the goods. No bull****, no happy talk,
just finely honed tools that are a pleasure to use.

Billy Y..
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Mike Rivers writes:

It's disappointing that you aren't getting better cooperation from Sound
Devices, particularly since you can wave the Sony flag at them.


The problem there is Sony had dumped the head of their sound department.
You know... he was getting paid a lot of money, and the bozos (feel free
to quote me on this, I don't give a **** who sees it) running Sony could
not find their ass even with both hands, so now said department is running
headless. I did send everything to one of the grunts there, but I'm not
expecting him to do anything about it.

The show at Fox, by the way, started with two Fostex DV-824 DVD-RAM
recorders, but they have their own set of problems - most notably now that
Panasonic is no longer making the media, occasionally a disc that can't
write fast enough will be encountered, and there's limited buffering in
the recorder. So, with a 17+ minute take, chances of getting screwed are
quite high. The DVD-RAM does have an unusually thorough defect management
scheme (bad block replacement), and the drives do reads after writes, but
the seek times for these are no good when doing real-time recording and
at close to the max bandwidth - which varies by individual disc, and can
not be known in advance wihtout physically formatting - which just makes
the whole thing worse, coz there will be more failures on the second write.

I've been tempted by their recorders for quite some time, but the do
seem to have their own ideas of how everyone should use them.


Yes. Their 700 series (protable) are quite nice, though. In fact, it's
hard to believe the same company did both.

Billy Y..
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John Williamson writes, quoting me:

Does anyone else complain about it?

I have no idea, but that's got nothing to do with it being wrong.

Just maybe, you are the only user that doesn't like it? Which makes all
the other users and the programmer wrong and you right?


Look, it is just plain wrong, period.

Moronity is rampant in this business. Let me give another example...

Years (decades) ago I began marking sync with SMPTE time code on
film shoots of concerts. This is bacause A) clapsticks can not be
heard over the music, and B) the concerts went on far longer than
the largest load of film could last. So, something that could be
done silently, and easily, amidst a prerformance, was necessary.

There were some other people using plain old clocks, but the time
code is frame accruate, and saves a lot of time syncing dailies.
For quite a while I was the only game in town, even though I was
simply using off-the-self video monitors and character generators.

Eventually various people built motion picture slate sized devices
that included a timecode display. But -- since they had no actual
experience with syncing picture to sound this way, the timecode data
were too small (visually) to make it easy to do. Here's what I was
doing - http://MIX.ORG/SMPTE-Slate.jpeg - NB these are full-frome
numbers, filling the entire display.

Now, most of what were film shoots are being recorded on video. But,
with digital video there are serious (massive, heh) sound sync issues
(and - occasional sync errors between cameras when using Sound Devices
recorders) so a means of measuring the offset is very necessary.

Here is the proper way to do that -

http://pharoaheditorial.com/syncheck.../synflash.html
http://pharoaheditorial.com/syncheck...syncheck3.html

But, what are "we" actually doing? Owing to union featherbedding
by the IATSE camera local, we're still using clapsticks, and not
coincidentally on a slate that also has a timecode display. Why?
Because competent electronic maintenance and video engineers were
replaced with uneducated people whose only qualification was that
they were a member of the camera local union.

"Everybody" is doing it, but does that make it right?

No.

More info is here - http://MIX.ORG/Brief_History_of_Television.txt

I wrote this in response to multiple camera recordings made on
Sound Devices recorders not syncing (grouping) correctly. SSTW is
Sean Saves The World, a multi-camera (4) sitcom.

So, now let's fast forward to last Thursday, on Stage 20 at Fox
Studios.

Here's how this high-school-science-fair kind of "technology"
gets used in actual practice -

http://MIX.ORG/Open.png
http://MIX.ORG/Closed.png

The radio signal that transmits timecode to the slate craps out.
We have an audience of 200+ people waiting to see a show. So, do
we just shoot, marking sync with the sticks, knowing it's entirely
adequate? Oh, no. I have to have two guys in my tiny room, dicking
around with the transmitter (for which there is no spare), running
the very serious risk of them breaking more than they fix. All for
what, exactly? Pure stupidity. Even though they know better, and
even though it's hardly the first time I've told them the timecode
data are 100% useless (coz they're also embedded in each camera's
recording). No, they mindlessly just act like they've never seen
the interior of an engineering classroom. Or, even the show's own
post production. Media Composer (Avid) can find the sticks hitting
quite easily. Timecode in the picture is useless. It only encourages
and promotes stupidity.

Duh!! Ya know.....?

Well, this metering lunacy is no different. Not one iota. Of
course there is more than one correct way to do something, but
this is demonstrably, not to mention blatantly, obviously wrong
to anyone with any actual experience in the profession. Or,
damn well should be.

Billy Y..
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wrote: "Oh, no. I have to have two guys in my tiny room, dicking
around with the transmitter (for which there is no spare), running
the very serious risk of them breaking more than they fix. All for
what, exactly? Pure stupidity. Even though they know better, and
even though it's hardly the first time I've told them the timecode
data are 100% useless (coz they're also embedded in each camera's
recording). No, they mindlessly just act like they've never seen
the interior of an engineering classroom. Or, even the show's own
post production. Media Composer (Avid) can find the sticks hitting
quite easily. Timecode in the picture is useless. It only encourages
and promotes stupidity. "


You've got the material for a sitcom right
there - a geeky one I suppose, but a good
sitcom none the less!
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On 2/11/2017 6:32 PM, wrote:

Look, it is just plain wrong, period.
Moronity is rampant in this business.


I'll agree with the latter statement, but this is a user interface
thing, and everybody has his own idea of what's right, and what's wrong.
I think that Mac computers and iPhones are nonsensical, but then I'm
used to Windows and Androids. I get products that do what I want,
mostly, and there are always some compromises. Sometimes it's in
features or functions, sometimes it's in the user interface. Once I
decide on the features I can't live without, I figure I can always learn
how to use it.

It's too easy to fixate on what's wrong with the user interface, and
that's what I see here. You CAN learn to ignore what's bugging you.

Years (decades) ago I began marking sync with SMPTE time code on
film shoots of concerts. . . . .
There were some other people using plain old clocks, but the time
code is frame accruate, and saves a lot of time syncing dailies.
Eventually various people built motion picture slate sized devices
that included a timecode display. But -- since they had no actual
experience with syncing picture to sound this way, the timecode data
were too small (visually) to make it easy to do. . . .


But, what are "we" actually doing? Owing to union featherbedding
by the IATSE camera local, we're still using clapsticks, and not
coincidentally on a slate that also has a timecode display. Why?
Because competent electronic maintenance and video engineers were
replaced with uneducated people whose only qualification was that
they were a member of the camera local union.


Watch it. You're getting me dangerously close to ranting about the new
digital consoles designed by people who obviously never actually mixed a
show that had more than one act.



--

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http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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In article , Mike Rivers wrote:

Watch it. You're getting me dangerously close to ranting about the new
digital consoles designed by people who obviously never actually mixed a
show that had more than one act.


Those people are assuming you're going to freeze the configuration for each
act as a "scene" rather than go leftie-rightie like analogue console users
do.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On 12/02/2017 1:20 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 11/02/2017 11:18, geoff wrote:
On 11/02/2017 4:45 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full
scale peak. You don't know if



And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ?
And a distraction of meaningless false information .

An alternative would be for the meter display showing the peak to stay
lit for a fixed time, then be replaced by the next peak and so on. This
would give a flashing display, which would be more distracting and even
less informative than the slow drop until the next peak.

Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter?




Yeah, the peak segment holds for a few seconds, then goes out.


geoff
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Scott Dorsey writes, quoting
Mike Rivers :

Watch it. You're getting me dangerously close to ranting about the new
digital consoles designed by people who obviously never actually mixed a
show that had more than one act.


Those people are assuming you're going to freeze the configuration for each
act as a "scene" rather than go leftie-rightie like analogue console users
do.


Hah. Showco once made a shirt for one of the many Farm Aid shows I did.

"85 Acts.. Right On Time!"

It's really not difficult, at all. You just do a little planning ahead.

These days things have gotten quite a bit different. And I don't mean stuff
like the 151 inputs used by The Voice.

The last big awards show I did had seven live performances in it. So, how
did they handle that? With 7 monitor boards, and 7 PA consoles. Doing this
required, of course, ****loads of cable, some of which hadn't been used in
years, had bad pairs, etc. Then, where the hell do you put 7 monitor desks
so each mixer can see his artists? Well, that was yet another train wreck.
Two or three of the bands (or maybe more) blew off doing it live and just
played back their stuff.

That's when I decided it was time for a career change for me... Heh.

Ya know, what's really depressing about this is the mixer/"sound designer"
was a guy (Paul Sandweiss) I hired (out of a Pacific Stereo store) to do
maintenance at Wally Heider's, and one of the people I spent a lot of time
teaching the business.....

Billy Y..
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Mike Rivers writes:

[...] this is a user interface thing, and everybody has his own idea
of what's right, and what's wrong. I think that Mac computers and
iPhones are nonsensical, but then I'm used to Windows and Androids.
I get products that do what I want, mostly, and there are always some
compromises. Sometimes it's in features or functions, sometimes it's
in the user interface. Once I decide on the features I can't live
without, I figure I can always learn how to use it.


Here, I can generally hack my way to happiness, although recent OS
releases have been progressively making this much more painful.

One not so small example is Apple moving to compiled NIBs (NextStep
Interface Builder, a component of an application), which makes changing
the 'look and feel' of a program a hell of a lot more difficult.

Not giving your users what they want is one thing, and then making it
tougher amnd tougher for them to just do it on their own is far worse.

Were Steve Jobs still alive I would call this intentional on Apple's
part. Maybe his ghost is still lingering there..... Sadly, though,
it's definitely no longer affecting the quality (control) of OS X.

It's too easy to fixate on what's wrong with the user interface, and
that's what I see here.


Geez, I'm just replying to stuff others have brought up in this thread.

You CAN learn to ignore what's bugging you.


Heh. I could also just bring in my own recorders. I wouldn't get
paid, but I don't need the money, and I actually do like the show.
Which is very rare for me. It's the Carmichael Show, on NBC in the
USA.

Billy Y..
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Scott Dorsey writes
Those people are assuming you're going to freeze the configuration for each
act as a "scene" rather than go leftie-rightie like analogue console users
do.



On 2/12/2017 12:32 PM, wrote:
Hah. Showco once made a shirt for one of the many Farm Aid shows I did.

"85 Acts.. Right On Time!"

It's really not difficult, at all. You just do a little planning ahead.


Hah! That might not be too difficult for a professional show like Farm
Aid, but at many of the folk festivals that Scott and I work, the groups
don't even know who's going to be there until they show up on stage.
Most stage plots if we get any at all bear no resemblance to what's
actually there. The easiest ones are groups that we know from prior
events. The most difficult are the ones that don't speak English and
bring instruments that we've never seen or heard before.


The last big awards show I did had seven live performances in it. So, how
did they handle that? With 7 monitor boards, and 7 PA consoles. Doing this
required, of course, ****loads of cable, some of which hadn't been used in
years, had bad pairs, etc. Then, where the hell do you put 7 monitor desks
so each mixer can see his artists? Well, that was yet another train wreck.


We solve that problem - one console for both house and monitors, for 10
to 12 acts during a day. The evening concerts on the larger festivals
usually have a separate monitor console, and they usually get sound
checks during the day.



--

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In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/12/2017 12:32 PM, wrote:

It's really not difficult, at all. You just do a little planning ahead.


Hah! That might not be too difficult for a professional show like Farm
Aid, but at many of the folk festivals that Scott and I work, the groups
don't even know who's going to be there until they show up on stage.
Most stage plots if we get any at all bear no resemblance to what's
actually there. The easiest ones are groups that we know from prior
events. The most difficult are the ones that don't speak English and
bring instruments that we've never seen or heard before.


Having worked both kinds of events, I have to say that I like working the
kind of events Mike describes a lot more than the events Billy describes,
in spite of the chaos. Because at the events Mike describes, everyone is
pulling together to put on a show and they know the conditions are
substandard and they are trying to do the best under those conditions.

The last big awards show I did had seven live performances in it. So, how
did they handle that? With 7 monitor boards, and 7 PA consoles. Doing this
required, of course, ****loads of cable, some of which hadn't been used in
years, had bad pairs, etc. Then, where the hell do you put 7 monitor desks
so each mixer can see his artists? Well, that was yet another train wreck.


We solve that problem - one console for both house and monitors, for 10
to 12 acts during a day. The evening concerts on the larger festivals
usually have a separate monitor console, and they usually get sound
checks during the day.


With a digital console with scenes and presets, you can use a single console
for Billy's gig too. The problem is that Billy has seven bands with seven
touring engineers and they all want their particular model of console and
they don't want to share.

If things are really bad, they might even be sabotaging one another. I have
had that happen more than once. "Your band can't use the full speaker system
because our band has to be louder than the other acts."

And... if Billy is doing the sound for video mixes, he is likely taking
splits from seven different consoles into his console and he is likely
going off his nut. If he has a digital console he can probably route
everything with the press of a button (maybe even route it correctly),
whereas if he has an analogue console he is likely swapping whirlwind
connectors or patch cables right and left like some sort of posessed
animal during the intervals.

Billy's problem is not technical, it is political. And I have been there and
I feel greatly for him.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

In article , wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

As a Nagra fan, I can do little more than just nod my head.


I like them, too. I also have great respect for TASCAM. Their guy
(Tom Duffy) actually came to the studios, more than once, watched how
we work, and totally delivered the goods. No bull****, no happy talk,
just finely honed tools that are a pleasure to use.


Have you used the Tascamm HS P-82? I tried it at the AES show and it felt
a little flimsy but the ergonomics were decent. And the price is certainly
right. I don't have the budget for the Nagra VI or the patience for the
Sound Devices 788T and I need six channels minimum.

I am seriously considering just buying one to try it out and considering it
a disposable item.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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[email protected] billy@MIX.COM is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

Scott Dorsey writes:

Have you used the Tascamm HS P-82? I tried it at the AES show and it felt
a little flimsy but the ergonomics were decent. And the price is certainly
right.


I'm familiar with it, but I'm (CBS/Viacom) using the HS-8, which is a rack
mount version and just a recorder (no mic preamps, etc). They share much of
the same firmware, other than the HS-8's ability to start a recording with the
first sample falling on a video frame boundary not being available in the P-82.

Ya know, for years I begged Avid not to truncate aduio while lining up sync.
You could be as much as 99 subframes off depending on random chance... So, I
had Tom add this to the HS-8 firmware. We all have one another's addresses..
and right after announcing that, Avid finally pops up with their own fix. (!)

So, if you're even worried about sync to picture, Media Composer starting with
V7.0.4 solves the problem. Here in Hollywood, though, editors are quite slow
to update - I've got people still on V6, and V5, so it wasn't a total loss.

I don't have the budget for the Nagra VI or the patience for the
Sound Devices 788T and I need six channels minimum.

I am seriously considering just buying one to try it out and considering it
a disposable item.


Well, it doesn't come in a housing milled from 6061 half-hard aluminium, but
for the money it's a pretty decent recorder.

You'll probably want a decent stylus for it (it's touchscreen controlled).

https://www.amazon.com/Bamboo-Stylus...dp/B004VM0SE6/

Billy Y..
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bcc 20$ ; not a number
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