In a post some time ago, Mr. Pierce commented that Paul Klipsch had in his
professional opinion made a wrong turn with the bass driver he seclected
for the 15" driver equiped classic Klipsch line (e.g. Belle Klipsch, la
Scala, and Klipschhorn.) Is there a more suitable driver for the existing
K-Horn or La Scala bass cabinet than the standard one?

I'd be interested to know if Mr. Pierce considers the Klipsch basshorns
hopeless or if he thinks they could be reworked to bring the efficient
horn technology in line with modern standards, and if not, is there in his
estimation any really good way to build a really efficient speaker in this
category.

Any differential discussion of the K-horn and La Scala bass sections (I
understand they're otherwise the same) would be interesting. If one wants
their level of efficiency, the only alternatives of which I am aware are
the VoT Altecs, Mr. Pierce's opinion of which is a well known matter.

I can only relate some experiements I did 25 years ago with a pair of
EV Centurion enclosures and various 15" bass drivers. I had an EV
15WK (the version of the EV 15W specifically designed for exponential
horns), a JBL D130, and a JBL D130A (the D130 was designed as a "full range"
speaker, which of course it wasn't; the D130A was similar to the D130 but
without the aluminum center dome and according to my memory designed for
exponential bass horn use - my memory is that it replaced the 150-4/4C).

I much preferred the D130A; I wound up using the D130A on one side and
the D130 on the other. Bass performance (above the LF cutoff of the bass
horn, which is fairly high for the rather small Centurion enclosure) was
quite spectacular.

I heard one Klipsch system in the 70's designed and set up by Klipsch
engineers for a person who had worked in the factory in Hope, Arkansas,
as a young man. It had two K-horns and one Cornwall with a three-channel
solid-state McIntosh amplification system. I found it quite irritating
(I've never been a fan of the MF/HF drivers Klipsch used) but the stereo
imaging was about the best I ever heard; the music played for me was a
symphony orchestra and the double bass section stayed put as you moved
around the rather large living room.

If I were building a new bass horn system I'd reproduce a JBL Hartsfield;
that is certainly the opinion of the buyers on eBay. At a minimum I'd go
with the JBL LE85 for the MF/HF driver, if not the 375 itself.

I always wanted to hear the later versions of the EV Patrician, with the 18"
woofer, but I've never seen one.

Mike Squires
--

Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 317 233 9456 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at siralan.org 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

(Michael Squires) wrote:

I can only relate some experiements I did 25 years ago with a pair of
EV Centurion enclosures and various 15" bass drivers. I had an EV
15WK (the version of the EV 15W specifically designed for exponential
horns), a JBL D130, and a JBL D130A (the D130 was designed as a "full range"
speaker, which of course it wasn't; the D130A was similar to the D130 but
without the aluminum center dome and according to my memory designed for
exponential bass horn use - my memory is that it replaced the 150-4/4C).

The 130A (there was no "D", since the "D" stood for "Dome") had a pulp
dome and a copper voice coil. It was never a replacement for the
150-4C; the LE-15 eventually replaced the 150-4C in most systems.

I much preferred the D130A; I wound up using the D130A on one side and
the D130 on the other. Bass performance (above the LF cutoff of the bass
horn, which is fairly high for the rather small Centurion enclosure) was
quite spectacular.

I heard one Klipsch system in the 70's designed and set up by Klipsch
engineers for a person who had worked in the factory in Hope, Arkansas,
as a young man. It had two K-horns and one Cornwall with a three-channel
solid-state McIntosh amplification system. I found it quite irritating
(I've never been a fan of the MF/HF drivers Klipsch used) but the stereo
imaging was about the best I ever heard; the music played for me was a
symphony orchestra and the double bass section stayed put as you moved
around the rather large living room.

If I were building a new bass horn system I'd reproduce a JBL Hartsfield;
that is certainly the opinion of the buyers on eBay. At a minimum I'd go
with the JBL LE85 for the MF/HF driver, if not the 375 itself.

The redesigned "coffin back" Hartsfields were better than Bill
Hartsfield's original design. The LE85 driver went out pretty far,
compared to the 375, which dropped like a rock after about 9kHz. I did
own a pair of Hartsfields (with Lowthers in them) that sounded pretty
nice when driven with a pair of Fairchild 50 watt tube amps.

I always wanted to hear the later versions of the EV Patrician, with the 18"
woofer, but I've never seen one.

Mike Squires

It was an imposing piece of work. During that period, I preferred Rudy
Bozak's big stuff; it was certainly among the most musical of the big
systems out there.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Harvey Gerst wrote:
(Michael Squires) wrote:

snip

I heard one Klipsch system in the 70's designed and set up by
Klipsch
engineers for a person who had worked in the factory in Hope,
Arkansas,
as a young man. It had two K-horns and one Cornwall with a
three-channel
solid-state McIntosh amplification system. I found it quite
irritating
(I've never been a fan of the MF/HF drivers Klipsch used) but the
stereo
imaging was about the best I ever heard; the music played for me was
a
symphony orchestra and the double bass section stayed put as you
moved
around the rather large living room.

The renaissance in K-horn interest centers around replacing the crappy
tweeter and squawker Klipsch still uses with usually the JBL "luscious
labia" tweeter and either an updated horn and metal diaphragm
compression driver or a sealed box with efficient magnet cone drivers.
If you're going to do that it's probably more cost-effective to build
your own repro bass unit, which is the route I'm going, although I'm
having mine professionally done by a guy who is both competent to do
the work and needs it (which can be hard to find).

McIntosh amplifiers IMO are the worst of any expensive brand for
driving very efficient speakers. Their low level performance is just
like Arny's beloved PA amps. They are also thermal miscarriages with
their little heatsinks bolted on to the chromed chassis as if they were
tube amps "transistorized" like the old military radios.

wrote in message
ps.com...

Harvey Gerst wrote:
(Michael Squires) wrote:

..

The renaissance in K-horn interest centers around replacing the crappy
tweeter and squawker Klipsch still uses with usually the JBL "luscious
labia" tweeter.....

Never heard it called that even though I worked closely with JBL for quite
some time..... Kudos! I always thought it was funny the way old
Gauss/EV/Peavey bi radials were referred to as "Funk Lip" horns

and either an updated horn and metal diaphragm
compression driver or a sealed box with efficient magnet cone drivers.
If you're going to do that it's probably more cost-effective to build
your own repro bass unit, which is the route I'm going, although I'm
having mine professionally done by a guy who is both competent to do
the work and needs it (which can be hard to find).



What are you going with for the mid? I've not seen a replica of sort but my
intrest is sparked! A cone in a horn comes to mind, or even a TAD horn. I
am interested to hear your design, sounds way cool!!! I like the K-Horn
bass design but always thought technology left them behind in the mid/hi
department. There are sooooo many better options out there now IMHO.

Chad

It's not original to me. There are a couple of places on the web that
have some cool Klipsch info:


http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/T...ng_League.html

http://www.alkeng.com/klip_hom.html

http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html

wrote:
It's not original to me. There are a couple of places on the web that
have some cool Klipsch info:


http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/T...ng_League.html

http://www.alkeng.com/klip_hom.html

http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html

Nice links very interesting thanks.

wrote in message
oups.com...
It's not original to me. There are a couple of places on the web that
have some cool Klipsch info:


http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/T...ng_League.html

http://www.alkeng.com/klip_hom.html

http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html


Both directions look cool, I woild like to hear the one with the cone
mids... I think one would do it as the 2123 will play insanely loud and
eliminate group delay from having horzontal mids that far apart, playing
that high and placed at a 45 deg angle in the room. The only thing I would
worry about is the time interaction between a front loaded mid and a folded
woofer.

The top cab design of the K-horn would premit a horn loaded cone, this would
help in effciciency and time domain, one could even incorporate the tweeter
into the "phase plug". At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.

Thanks so much for the links!

Chad

"Chad Wahls" wrote in message
...
Both directions look cool, I woild like to hear the one with the cone
mids... I think one would do it as the 2123 will play insanely loud and
eliminate group delay from having horzontal mids that far apart, playing
that high and placed at a 45 deg angle in the room. The only thing I
would
worry about is the time interaction between a front loaded mid and a
folded
woofer.

Which is where a digital crossover with time compensation cannot be beat.
Personally I can't see why you would do anything else with a horn system
these days.
The 2123 appears to be discontinued though, but the 2012 is similar.
What I would worry about is the frequency performance and dispersion of the
2012 at 2-4kHz. It gets pretty peaky above 2kHz!
Better to make it 4 way, 4 amps, using a 2012 lower mid, and a suitable
compression driver/horn upper mid?
All with digital time compensation of course.

The top cab design of the K-horn would premit a horn loaded cone, this
would
help in effciciency and time domain, one could even incorporate the
tweeter
into the "phase plug".

I suspect the 2123 or 2012 would require a horn too long.

At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.

Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities as the
2404.

MrT.

Mr. T said:

At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.


Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities as
the
2404.

MrT.

An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles 200
watts of power, how loud do you need to go?

still learning wrote:
Mr. T said:

At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.


Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities
as
the
2404.

MrT.

An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles
200
watts of power, how loud do you need to go?

200 watts is 23 dB over 1 watt. This gives a theoretical acoustical
output of 126 dB at one meter which ain't bad.

However, it's hard to predict if there would be a lot of driver
compression, but there would be at least a few dB of it. The driver
might not be all that linear in this kind of extreme (for it) service.

Having worked with Morel drivers in the past, I also question whether
the driver would last long enough if actually routinely used this way.

In contrast, some compresssion driver/waveguide-horn speakers can
reasonably be expected to last a long time in this kind of duty, and
have reasonable amounts of compression and distortion.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Chad Wahls" wrote in message
...
Both directions look cool, I woild like to hear the one with the cone
mids... I think one would do it as the 2123 will play insanely loud and
eliminate group delay from having horzontal mids that far apart, playing
that high and placed at a 45 deg angle in the room. The only thing I
would
worry about is the time interaction between a front loaded mid and a
folded
woofer.

Which is where a digital crossover with time compensation cannot be beat.
Personally I can't see why you would do anything else with a horn system
these days.
The 2123 appears to be discontinued though, but the 2012 is similar.
What I would worry about is the frequency performance and dispersion of
the
2012 at 2-4kHz. It gets pretty peaky above 2kHz!
Better to make it 4 way, 4 amps, using a 2012 lower mid, and a suitable
compression driver/horn upper mid?
All with digital time compensation of course.



Agree on the digital!!!!!!!

There are also mids out there now intended for compact line arrays that
would fit in a more compact housing due to the fact that the cone is round
but the frame is shaved down on 2 sides.

The top cab design of the K-horn would premit a horn loaded cone, this
would
help in effciciency and time domain, one could even incorporate the
tweeter
into the "phase plug".

I suspect the 2123 or 2012 would require a horn too long.

At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.

Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities as the
2404.


Morels will play damn loud, BUT if you are going for sheer scream the JBL is
still the best bet. Although I tend to use the right side of the volume
control ocasionally my listening tastes dictate that the morel would
probably not go into power compression and may sound better to my ears.

Chad

MrT.

"still learning" wrote in message
ups.com...
An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles 200
watts of power, how loud do you need to go?

The 200W figure is not continuous, so it's a bit hard to compare.

The JBL2404 does 105 dB 1W/1M and handles 40W continuous for an SPL of 121
dB.
The MDT 37 would blow up long before then.
However why use one in a horn loaded system anyway?

MrT.

"Chad Wahls" writes:
[...]
Although I tend to use the right side of the volume control
ocasionally my listening tastes dictate that the morel would
probably not go into power compression and may sound better to my
ears.

Why don't the magazines (Stereophile, etc.) measure power compression?
My gut tells me it's a very relevent parameter, being a corner-horn
owner myself.
--
Randy Yates
Sony Ericsson Mobile Communications
Research Triangle Park, NC, USA
, 919-472-1124