[Peter]

Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really the best "CD
Redbook" Player in the world, as a number of reviewers in both the USA and
Europe seem to believe?

[Fella]

Peter wrote:
Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really the best "CD
Redbook" Player in the world, as a number of reviewers in both the USA and
Europe seem to believe?



Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre (in double blind
tests) it doesn't really matter. You can buy approx. 150 or so of those
$39 dvd players with the price of an ayre. The only catch is that you
need to listen to music in a perpetual double blind limbo situation for
the rest of your life.

But seriously speaking I auditioned the ayre sometime back and found
that the presentation was somewhat larger then life. I, for instance,
would say that the Ikemi renders a much more musical *and* realistic
soundscape than the ayre. my $02.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Fella" wrote in message
.. .
Peter wrote:
Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really the best "CD
Redbook" Player in the world, as a number of reviewers in both the USA
and Europe seem to believe?

Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre (in double blind
tests) it doesn't really matter.

**Bull****. Cite any such test. All the budget DVD players I've examined
have serious and audible flaws. Even a 15 year old CD player can beat the
pants off them. Cheap DVD players use primitive output OP amps, which are
similar to the late 1970s vintage 4558 type. Even the very first CD players
(Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101) used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833
types. Amost every CD player since, has used these chips. NOw, I have no
idea what the Ayre sounds like, but I can tell you that any reasonable CD
player sounds better than a budget DVD player.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Fella]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message
.. .

Peter wrote:

Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really the best "CD
Redbook" Player in the world, as a number of reviewers in both the USA
and Europe seem to believe?

Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre (in double blind
tests) it doesn't really matter.


**Bull****.

Agreed.

But I can bet my money that under double blind (abx box, all those
connrections, etc) conditions no one would be reliably able to
differentiate between a $39 DVD player and an ayre cd 5x.

[Arny Krueger]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message
"Fella" wrote in message
.. .
Peter wrote:
Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really
the best "CD Redbook" Player in the world, as a number
of reviewers in both the USA and Europe seem to believe?

Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre
(in double blind tests) it doesn't really matter.

**Bull****. Cite any such test.

Nobody wants to loan me an Ayre, on the chance that it would indeed be
humiliated by the $39 DVD player.

All the budget DVD
players I've examined have serious and audible flaws.

Show us your time-synched, level-matched, bias-controlled test results,
Trevor.

Even a 15 year old CD player can beat the pants off them.

Show us your time-synched, level-matched, bias-controlled test results,
Trevor.

Cheap DVD players use primitive output OP amps, which are
similar to the late 1970s vintage 4558 type.

That's not the results of a time-synched, level-matched, bias-controlled
test results, Trevor. That's just techhie gobbeldy-gook. Assault on the
senses by numbers.

Even the
very first CD players (Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101)
used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833 types.

So what? All the poor output OP amp has to do is cleanly pass a 22 KHz 2
volt signal. The slew-rate of that signal is what, Trevor?

Amost every CD player since, has used these chips. NOw, I have
no idea what the Ayre sounds like, but I can tell you
that any reasonable CD player sounds better than a budget
DVD player.

Show us your time-synched, level-matched, bias-controlled test results,
Trevor.

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message


But I can bet my money that under double blind (abx box,
all those connrections, etc) conditions no one would be
reliably able to differentiate between a $39 DVD player
and an ayre cd 5x.

"All those connections?" LOL!

So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high quality relay contact
and 6 pieces of short interconnect are sufficient to mask the difference
between a a $39 DVD player and an ayre cd 5x? What about the relay contacts
that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?

That's got to be a joke if I ever heard one!

Here's where the ABX test *masks* the *differences* between the two players.
It's all about the level-matching and time-synching and use of the same
recordings on both players. There are very few audiophiles who have ever
heard two CD players operate under these conditions.

I suspect that the number of audiophiles in the world who have ever heard
two CD players operated level-matched, time-synched, and with the identical
same recording (i.e. two CDs in excellent condition stamped from the same
dies or its CD-R equivalent) is under 1,000 and maybe under 100.

I doubt that anybody who posts or has ever posted on RAO with the exception
of maybe 5 so-called Borg, have ever been able to listen to two CD players
under these perfectly reasonable operating conditions, and had the free
choice to switch between the two players at will.

Not even JA.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message

"Fella" wrote in message
...

Peter wrote:

Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really
the best "CD Redbook" Player in the world, as a number
of reviewers in both the USA and Europe seem to believe?


Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre
(in double blind tests) it doesn't really matter.


**Bull****. Cite any such test.


Nobody wants to loan me an Ayre, on the chance that it would indeed be
humiliated by the $39 DVD player.

Why don't you just walk over to your local HE dealer and take one home
for audition?


Amost every CD player since, has used these chips. NOw, I have
no idea what the Ayre sounds like, but I can tell you
that any reasonable CD player sounds better than a budget
DVD player.


Show us your time-synched, level-matched, bias-controlled test results,
Trevor.


What'd I say, what'd I say?

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

"Fella" wrote in message
.. .

Peter wrote:

Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player
really the best "CD Redbook" Player in the world, as
a number of reviewers in both the USA and Europe seem
to believe?


Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre
(in double blind tests) it doesn't really matter.


**Bull****. Cite any such test.


Nobody wants to loan me an Ayre, on the chance that it
would indeed be humiliated by the $39 DVD player.

Why don't you just walk over to your local HE dealer and
take one home for audition?

That would be Audio Dimensions on N Woodward near my daughter's house.

They are the guys who sold me my bigger NHTs, and told me that I'd burn them
out by driving them with a Mackie M1200. Long story short - the NHTs
out-survived the M1200 by at least 5 years. Seriously though, they are
pretty good guys.

Too far to walk.

Besides, honesty requires me to explain to him what my purpose is, and they
would be nuts to agree. They'd also probably want me to put it on my Visa
card.

Amost every CD player since, has used these chips.
NOw, I have no idea what the Ayre sounds like, but I
can tell you that any reasonable CD player sounds better than a
budget DVD player.

Show us your time-synched, level-matched,
bias-controlled test results, Trevor.

What'd I say, what'd I say?

So Fella what you're saying is that the Ayre will sound different from the
$39 DVD player, only if the comparison is not level-matched, is not
time-synched, and not bias-controlled?

Isn't it true that any two CD players will sound dramatically different if
you don't time-synch them and level-match them?

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message



But I can bet my money that under double blind (abx box,
all those connrections, etc) conditions no one would be
reliably able to differentiate between a $39 DVD player
and an ayre cd 5x.


"All those connections?" LOL!

So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high quality relay contact
and 6 pieces of short interconnect are sufficient to mask the difference
between a a $39 DVD player and an ayre cd 5x?

That's *one* of the factor*s* that contribute to the whitewashing effect
of the abx box, yes.


What about the relay contacts
that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?

Ayre's WHAT circuit? Shheeeeeeeessh.


That's got to be a joke if I ever heard one!

Agreed.


Here's where the ABX test *masks* the *differences* between the two players.
It's all about the level-matching and time-synching and use of the same
recordings on both players. There are very few audiophiles who have ever
heard two CD players operate under these conditions.

Dunno if I am an "audiophile" or not, but I did. When we were doing the
amp tests we also did one CD player test. It was a really big fat gold
colored high end sony "reference" player (I forget the model number now)
against a cambridge audio azur 640c. In real life the sony had an
immense midrange, liquid, syrupy, almost coming apart at the seems, and
a tall soundstage, while the CA had a comparatively compressed midrange,
clean, accentuated highs and an almost out of control bass. But
connected to the abx box they just sounded the same, lots of detail,
information, no music.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:



Too far to walk.

You don't own a car? (That was a rhetorical question arny-ol chum. As
borgs usually do, you might be now tempted to start talking about your
super powerfull audi a4 whatever sports car, juiced up, etc, not interested)


Besides, honesty requires me to explain to him what my purpose is,

Why? I never explain an audition. And a good shopkeeper would never want
or need to ask you any such explanation. He'd just give the bugger to
you and hope that you would fall in love with it and eventually buy it,
whatever your initial reason for the audition.

and they
would be nuts to agree.

Agreed.


They'd also probably want me to put it on my Visa
card.

So what? You would return the thing evetually since it would sound the
same as your $39 dvd player.



So Fella what you're saying is

Lemme see what i'm, sayin.


that the Ayre will sound different from the
$39 DVD player, only if the comparison is not level-matched, is not
time-synched, and not bias-controlled?

Well OK something like that. I am saying that if you sit down and listen
to your favourite music with them they'd be sounding different, yes.


Isn't it true that any two CD players will sound dramatically different if
you don't time-synch them and level-match them?


True and agreed.

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message



But I can bet my money that under double blind (abx box,
all those connrections, etc) conditions no one would be
reliably able to differentiate between a $39 DVD player
and an ayre cd 5x.


"All those connections?" LOL!

So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high
quality relay contact and 6 pieces of short interconnect
are sufficient to mask the difference between a a $39
DVD player and an ayre cd 5x?

That's *one* of the factor*s* that contribute to the
whitewashing effect of the abx box, yes.


What about the relay contacts
that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?

Ayre's WHAT circuit? Shheeeeeeeessh.

Just about every CD player has some kind of circuit that mutes its output
during power up and other noise-producing operations. Do try to keep up with
the technology, Fella.

Just because there isn't a mute button on the front panel, doesn't mean that
there isn't a muting function inside the box. And, just because you don't
hear relays click, doesn't mean they aren't there. For example, reed relays
can be very very quiet.

That's got to be a joke if I ever heard one!

Agreed.

Yes Fella, your contentions about a couple of pieces of cable and a set of
good relay contacts trashing the sound is a joke.

Here's where the ABX test *masks* the *differences*
between the two players. It's all about the
level-matching and time-synching and use of the same
recordings on both players. There are very few
audiophiles who have ever heard two CD players operate
under these conditions.

Dunno if I am an "audiophile" or not, but I did. When we
were doing the amp tests we also did one CD player test.
It was a really big fat gold colored high end sony
"reference" player (I forget the model number now)
against a cambridge audio azur 640c. In real life the
sony had an immense midrange, liquid, syrupy, almost
coming apart at the seems, and a tall soundstage, while
the CA had a comparatively compressed midrange, clean,
accentuated highs and an almost out of control bass. But
connected to the abx box they just sounded the same, lots
of detail, information, no music.

Sounds like the effects of hysteria.

The idea that a couple of pieces of good cable and a set of good relay
contacts can remove immense midrange, liquid, syrupy, almost coming apart
at the seams, and a tall soundstage, while and a comparatively compressed
midrange, clean,
accentuated highs and an almost out of control bass, is absolute nonsense.

Fella, do you have any idea how many sets of relay contacts and cables music
goes through in the process of producing a CD?

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:



Too far to walk.

You don't own a car? (That was a rhetorical question
arny-ol chum. As borgs usually do, you might be now tempted to start
talking about your super powerfull audi a4 whatever
sports car, juiced up, etc, not interested)

Besides, honesty requires me to explain to him what my
purpose is,

Why? I never explain an audition.

Yeah Fella, but you are a proven liar. I'm trying to be honest.

And a good shopkeeper
would never want or need to ask you any such explanation.

Not my experience.

He'd just give
the bugger to you and hope that you would fall in love with it and
eventually buy it, whatever your initial reason for the
audition.

That might work with you, Fella but there are people in the world who are
more hard-headed than you.

and they would be nuts to agree.

Agreed.

They'd also probably want me to put it on my Visa
card.

So what? You would return the thing evetually since it
would sound the same as your $39 dvd player.

But then it would be used gear.


So Fella what you're saying is

Lemme see what i'm, sayin.


that the Ayre will sound different from the
$39 DVD player, only if the comparison is not
level-matched, is not time-synched, and not
bias-controlled?

Well OK something like that.

Thanks for agreeing.

I am saying that if you sit
down and listen to your favourite music with them they'd be sounding
different, yes.

But, if the difference is bias, time synch, or level matching, why should
anybody pay the big bucks for them?

Isn't it true that any two CD players will sound
dramatically different if you don't time-synch them and
level-match them?

True and agreed.

Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why not just do that with
a $39 player and give the other $1,000s to a good charity?

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

..... with the technology, Fella.
Yes Fella, ....
Fella, do you....

Arny, may I bring to your attention this she-person called Jenn? She
says that she conducts, has a preference towards the LP format
especially when listening to violins. Whereas you *know* that she is a
manic-depressive, Jennnnnn, paranoid and, Jenn Jenn, she is arrogant and
Jenn, thank you Jenn for proving to us Jnen, etc. You know the drill.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


"Fella" wrote in message
t



But I can bet my money that under double blind (abx box,
all those connrections, etc) conditions no one would be
reliably able to differentiate between a $39 DVD player
and an ayre cd 5x.


"All those connections?" LOL!

So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high
quality relay contact and 6 pieces of short interconnect
are sufficient to mask the difference between a a $39
DVD player and an ayre cd 5x?

That's *one* of the factor*s* that contribute to the
whitewashing effect of the abx box, yes.



What about the relay contacts
that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?

Ayre's WHAT circuit? Shheeeeeeeessh.


Just about every CD player has some kind of circuit that mutes its output
during power up and other noise-producing operations. Do try to keep up with
the technology, Fella.

Just because there isn't a mute button on the front panel, doesn't mean that
there isn't a muting function inside the box. And, just because you don't
hear relays click, doesn't mean they aren't there. For example, reed relays
can be very very quiet.


That's got to be a joke if I ever heard one!


Agreed.


Yes Fella, your contentions about a couple of pieces of cable and a set of
good relay contacts trashing the sound is a joke.

I quote myself: That's *one* of the factor*s* that contribute to the
whitewashing effect of the abx box, yes.




The idea that a couple of pieces of good cable and a set of good relay
contacts can remove immense midrange, liquid, syrupy, almost coming apart
at the seams, and a tall soundstage, while and a comparatively compressed
midrange, clean,
accentuated highs and an almost out of control bass, is absolute nonsense.


So Arny ol chum are you saying that those two players would sound the
same in the real world also? .. My my, what one can do with un-matching
them "levels" and un-"synching" the time these days.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:



Too far to walk.

You don't own a car? (That was a rhetorical question
arny-ol chum. As borgs usually do, you might be now tempted to start
talking about your super powerfull audi a4 whatever
sports car, juiced up, etc, not interested)

Besides, honesty requires me to explain to him what my
purpose is,

Why? I never explain an audition.


Yeah Fella, but you are a proven liar.


When'd you prove that arny ol-chum? Just curious.



So what? You would return the thing evetually since it
would sound the same as your $39 dvd player.


But then it would be used gear.

You poor thing. Let your hair down one of these days go to a real HE
boutique (dunno, wear a disguise, dress up like Jenn). You'll see that
they have audition models of most of their products. Already used. Ah
arny ol-chum, what a strange creature you are. Strange.



Well OK something like that.


Thanks for agreeing.

Agreeed.



Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why not just do that with
a $39 player and give the other $1,000s to a good charity?


On a serious note, how do you presume to know just *what* I am giving
and not giving to charity?

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message


Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why
not just do that with a $39 player and give the other
$1,000s to a good charity?

On a serious note, how do you presume to know just *what*
I am giving and not giving to charity?

My comments made no presumptions about that, one way or the other.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message



Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why
not just do that with a $39 player and give the other
$1,000s to a good charity?


Come to think of it Arny, I never synchronize my CD's before playing
them or even playing with them. How does one do that arn ol chum? To
what should I synchronize them to, or with? Thanks.

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message



Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why
not just do that with a $39 player and give the other
$1,000s to a good charity?


Come to think of it Arny, I never synchronize my CD's
before playing them or even playing with them. How does
one do that arn ol chum?

Start them at the same time, and apply manual drag to a CD disc as
required. A more technical approach is to adjust the master clock of one of
the CD players to effect the match. I've done both.

To what should I synchronize them to, or with?

If you're comparing two CD players, synch them to each other.

The whole point is to hear the same music playing on both players when you
compare their sound.

[Fella]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


"Fella" wrote in message
t



Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why
not just do that with a $39 player and give the other
$1,000s to a good charity?

Come to think of it Arny, I never synchronize my CD's
before playing them or even playing with them. How does
one do that arn ol chum?


Start them at the same time, and apply manual drag to a CD disc as
required. A more technical approach is to adjust the master clock of one of
the CD players to effect the match. I've done both.


To what should I synchronize them to, or with?


If you're comparing two CD players, synch them to each other.

The whole point is to hear the same music playing on both players when you
compare their sound.



Arny where where you when God was giving out humor rations?

[George M. Middius]

Fella said:

Arny where where you when God was giving out humor rations?

Well, you succeeded in enticing the Krooborg into yet another "debate"
about aBxism. Given™ the impressive successes he's had in brainwashing
Normals into accepting aBxism during the past decade, is it too much to
wonder if Krooger meets Einstein's definition of insanity?




--

"Christians have to ... work to make the world as loving, just, and supportive as is possible."
A. Krooger, Aug. 2006

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


"Fella" wrote in message




Well, its easy enough to play CDs unsynchronized, why
not just do that with a $39 player and give the other
$1,000s to a good charity?

Come to think of it Arny, I never synchronize my CD's
before playing them or even playing with them. How does
one do that arn ol chum?


Start them at the same time, and apply manual drag to a CD disc as
required. A more technical approach is to
adjust the master clock of one of the CD players to
effect the match. I've done both.
To what should I synchronize them to, or with?


If you're comparing two CD players, synch them to each
other. The whole point is to hear the same music playing on
both players when you compare their sound.

Arny where where you when God was giving out humor
rations?

What's your problem Fella, are you suggesting that I'm don't ROTFLMAO
whenever I exchange posts with you? You're a really funny guy! ;-)

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Even the
very first CD players (Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101)
used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833 types.

So what? All the poor output OP amp has to do is cleanly pass a 22 KHz 2
volt signal. The slew-rate of that signal is what, Trevor?

Cleanly being the relevant point. Distortion sets in well before the slew
rate limit is reached.

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
Fella wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

..... with the technology, Fella.
Yes Fella, ....
Fella, do you....

Arny, may I bring to your attention this she-person called Jenn? She
says that she conducts, has a preference towards the LP format
especially when listening to violins. Whereas you *know* that she is a
manic-depressive, Jennnnnn, paranoid and, Jenn Jenn, she is arrogant and
Jenn, thank you Jenn for proving to us Jnen, etc. You know the drill.

You left out "liar" and "hysterical". And I have "problems with men".

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high quality relay contact
and 6 pieces of short interconnect are sufficient to mask the difference
between a a $39 DVD player and an ayre cd 5x? What about the relay contacts
that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?


A smart designer puts them in parallel with the outputs to ground, in
NC mode. That way, they're not in the signal path.

Even the not so smart designers, like me, do that.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


That would be Audio Dimensions on N Woodward near my daughter's house.

They are the guys who sold me my bigger NHTs, and told me that I'd burn them
out by driving them with a Mackie M1200. Long story short - the NHTs
out-survived the M1200 by at least 5 years. Seriously though, they are
pretty good guys.

Too far to walk.


They finally took your driver's license?

What was it this time?
Can't be speeding, since it takes you "hours" to drive 5 kilometers,
so you must have been under influence.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Even the
very first CD players (Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101)
used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833 types.

So what? All the poor output OP amp has to do is
cleanly pass a 22 KHz 2 volt signal. The slew-rate of
that signal is what, Trevor?

Cleanly being the relevant point. Distortion sets in well
before the slew rate limit is reached.

Of course.

So Graham, what is the nonlinear distortion in the output of a $39 DVD
player when playing say a 18 and 20 KHz tone at an appropriate level?

If the output drivers on the player are as bad as Trevor suggests, then
there will be large amounts of HF IM ( 0.1 %). If the output drivers are
competent, then there will be small amounts of HF IM (0.1%).

This is a test that is so coarse that it can be done using the onboard audio
interface of a modern PC as analytical equipment.

FWIW, I just did this Audio Rightmark test on the portable CD I take with me
when I backpack. In general, the test report showed mostly the performance
of the Realtek audio interface of my office PC.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high
quality relay contact and 6 pieces of short interconnect
are sufficient to mask the difference between a a $39
DVD player and an ayre cd 5x? What about the relay
contacts that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?

A smart designer puts them in parallel with the outputs
to ground, in NC mode. That way, they're not in the
signal path.

That's all fine and good, but it is not a 100% solution.

It begs the question what sort of problem is being worried about. For
example, if you're worried about problems being induced from the coils of
the relay, the exposure remains with your recommended approach.

Again, if relays in or on the signal path cause audible problems, there's a
pretty good chance those problems were already introduced on the production
side.

Fact of the matter is that relays good enough to pass audio blamelessly, are
readily available. The relays we put into the ABX Comparator were the same
as used in some high end mixing consoles.

Furthermore, there are relay-less approaches to doing component
comparisons. Frankly they have neither shed new light nor do they obscure
audible problems that are actually present. They can make things a whole lot
more convenient.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" said:

"Fella" wrote in message
.. .


Why don't you just walk over to your local HE dealer and
take one home for audition?

That would be Audio Dimensions on N Woodward near my
daughter's house.

They are the guys who sold me my bigger NHTs, and told
me that I'd burn them out by driving them with a Mackie
M1200. Long story short - the NHTs out-survived the
M1200 by at least 5 years. Seriously though, they are
pretty good guys.

Too far to walk.

They finally took your driver's license?

Forgot how to read again Sander, or is your memory that short?

To refresh your mind, please see the OP's comment about walking, at the top
of this post.

[Arny Krueger]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Trevor Wilson"
wrote in message


"Fella" wrote in message
.. .

Peter wrote:

Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player
really the best "CD Redbook" Player in the world, as
a number of reviewers in both the USA and Europe
seem to believe?


Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the
ayre (in double blind tests) it doesn't really
matter.


**Bull****. Cite any such test.


Nobody wants to loan me an Ayre, on the chance that it
would indeed be humiliated by the $39 DVD player.

Why don't you just walk over to your local HE dealer and
take one home for audition?

That would be Audio Dimensions on N Woodward near my
daughter's house.

They are the guys who sold me my bigger NHTs, and told
me that I'd burn them out by driving them with a Mackie
M1200. Long story short - the NHTs out-survived the
M1200 by at least 5 years. Seriously though, they are
pretty good guys.

Too far to walk.

Besides, honesty requires me to explain to him what my
purpose is, and they would be nuts to agree. They'd also
probably want me to put it on my Visa card.

Generally legit high end saloons have a demo unit that
they will loan out for home auditions with a deposit, the
proviso it must come back in the exact cosmetic shape as
well as functionally as when it left. They could not
object if you ABXed it, unless you defaced or damaged it.

Remaining problem - I go to all the trouble, and the results are blamed on
anything but the actual UUT. No, a person of the rationalist view point is
the wrong person to do the test - after all it's revealed in the high end
community that anybody who grants DBTs *any* credibiltiy has cloth ears.

[Arny Krueger]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com
Fella wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:


Dunno if I am an "audiophile" or not, but I did. When we
were doing the amp tests we also did one CD player test.
It was a really big fat gold colored high end sony
"reference" player (I forget the model number now)
against a cambridge audio azur 640c. In real life the
sony had an immense midrange, liquid, syrupy, almost
coming apart at the seems, and a tall soundstage, while
the CA had a comparatively compressed midrange, clean,
accentuated highs and an almost out of control bass. But
connected to the abx box they just sounded the same,
lots of detail, information, no music.

I find that hard to believe. I bet the musicians on the
disc could not tell the difference whether or not the ABX
box was in circuit, and you couldn't either if you didn't
know.

Reading between the lines, the so-called audible differences probably
disappeared when the levels were properly matched.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high
quality relay contact and 6 pieces of short interconnect
are sufficient to mask the difference between a a $39
DVD player and an ayre cd 5x? What about the relay
contacts that are probably in the Ayre's muting circuit?


A smart designer puts them in parallel with the outputs
to ground, in NC mode. That way, they're not in the
signal path.


That's all fine and good, but it is not a 100% solution.

It begs the question what sort of problem is being worried about. For
example, if you're worried about problems being induced from the coils of
the relay, the exposure remains with your recommended approach.

Again, if relays in or on the signal path cause audible problems, there's a
pretty good chance those problems were already introduced on the production
side.


I'm not worried about induced voltages from the coil's action (that's
what that neat diode is for), but I am assuming that in most
situations, there are several contacts and connectors in series with
the signal.
Any connection less is a problem less in the future.

That's why I soldered my connection cables directly from the DAC to my
main amp, where they are connected via WBT clamping connectors and
receptacles.
Again, going from that main amp to the secondary amp, directly
soldered wiring, and again clamping WBTs and receptacles at the
receiving end of the aux amp.

The DAC has a mute relay at the output with NC contacts to ground,
just like the main amp and aux amp have at their input.

I'm now working on a balanced setup for my cartridge, where the signal
is amplified/buffered by a pair of OPA1632 in the plinth, then
soldered via shotgunned RG58U via XLR into a new preamp, that's also
balanced.
That is where the RIAA correction takes place, also with OPA1632.

I'm intending on making every necessary line level connection
balanced, up until the power amps.

I'm finished with tubes and cinch plugs at MM and MC levels, I
couldn't get it any better than it was.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


Too far to walk.


They finally took your driver's license?


Forgot how to read again Sander, or is your memory that short?


I have a combination of Alzheimer's and deja-vu: I think I've
forgotten this before.........


To refresh your mind, please see the OP's comment about walking, at the top
of this post.


A literal mind is a joy forever ;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Even the
very first CD players (Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101)
used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833 types.

So what? All the poor output OP amp has to do is
cleanly pass a 22 KHz 2 volt signal. The slew-rate of
that signal is what, Trevor?

Cleanly being the relevant point. Distortion sets in well
before the slew rate limit is reached.

Of course.

So Graham, what is the nonlinear distortion in the output of a $39 DVD
player when playing say a 18 and 20 KHz tone at an appropriate level?

I haven't the tiniest clue given such a vague question.


If the output drivers on the player are as bad as Trevor suggests, then
there will be large amounts of HF IM ( 0.1 %). If the output drivers are
competent, then there will be small amounts of HF IM (0.1%).

This is a test that is so coarse that it can be done using the onboard audio
interface of a modern PC as analytical equipment.

FWIW, I just did this Audio Rightmark test on the portable CD I take with me
when I backpack. In general, the test report showed mostly the performance
of the Realtek audio interface of my office PC.

I'm sure you're right.

Have you ever done any comparative testing on various ICs that have been used in
audio ? I suspect it might be very revealing.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" said:


So Fella, you want us to believe that a set of high
quality relay contact and 6 pieces of short
interconnect are sufficient to mask the difference
between a a $39 DVD player and an ayre cd 5x? What
about the relay contacts that are probably in the
Ayre's muting circuit?


A smart designer puts them in parallel with the outputs
to ground, in NC mode. That way, they're not in the
signal path.


That's all fine and good, but it is not a 100% solution.

It begs the question what sort of problem is being
worried about. For example, if you're worried about
problems being induced from the coils of the relay, the
exposure remains with your recommended approach.

Again, if relays in or on the signal path cause audible
problems, there's a pretty good chance those problems
were already introduced on the production side.

I'm not worried about induced voltages from the coil's
action (that's what that neat diode is for),

The diode is there for a different purpose. Coils can induce voltages just
fine with the diode in place.

but I am
assuming that in most situations, there are several
contacts and connectors in series with the signal.

Lots!

Any connection less is a problem less in the future.

That's true for every electrical circuit. But only audiophiles seem to take
this to such extremes. For example, back in the old days the wiring on my
dad's 1942 Buick was almost entirely soldered together. There was also not a
lot of wiring of any kind. However, the car had to be garaged every 1,000
miles for an oil change and a grease job. Today, my 2006 Milan has tons of
connectors and all sorts of electrical gizmos, but it rolls past thos 1,000
mile oil changes and grease jobs just fine, thank you. The point is that
there's something to be said about worrying about things that actually
matter, instead of just brainlessly ruling one's life with truisms.

That's why I soldered my connection cables directly from
the DAC to my main amp, where they are connected via WBT
clamping connectors and receptacles.
Again, going from that main amp to the secondary amp,
directly soldered wiring, and again clamping WBTs and
receptacles at the receiving end of the aux amp.

WBT connectors are hugely grossly bad in terms of reliability, compared to
good relay contacts.

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Trevor Wilson"
wrote

Even the
very first CD players (Philips/Marantz and Sony
CDP101) used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833 types.

So what? All the poor output OP amp has to do is
cleanly pass a 22 KHz 2 volt signal. The slew-rate of
that signal is what, Trevor?

Cleanly being the relevant point. Distortion sets in
well before the slew rate limit is reached.

Of course.

So Graham, what is the nonlinear distortion in the
output of a $39 DVD player when playing say a 18 and 20
KHz tone at an appropriate level?

I haven't the tiniest clue given such a vague question.


If the output drivers on the player are as bad as Trevor
suggests, then there will be large amounts of HF IM (
0.1 %). If the output drivers are competent, then there
will be small amounts of HF IM (0.1%).

This is a test that is so coarse that it can be done
using the onboard audio interface of a modern PC as
analytical equipment.

FWIW, I just did this Audio Rightmark test on the
portable CD I take with me when I backpack. In general,
the test report showed mostly the performance of the
Realtek audio interface of my office PC.

I'm sure you're right.

Have you ever done any comparative testing on various ICs
that have been used in audio ? I suspect it might be very
revealing.

At one point we assembled a test jig with something like 20 stages of TLO74
cascaded. Gain of 10, divide by 10 attenuator, gain of 10, etc. Trimmed it
for unity gain and had all sorts of people compare it to a piece of wire.
Random guessing.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


WBT connectors are hugely grossly bad in terms of reliability, compared to
good relay contacts.


That's why they will be replaced by XLR.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Jenn]

In article .com,
"Bret Ludwig" wrote:

Fella wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

..... with the technology, Fella.
Yes Fella, ....
Fella, do you....

Arny, may I bring to your attention this she-person called Jenn? She
says that she conducts, has a preference towards the LP format
especially when listening to violins. Whereas you *know* that she is a
manic-depressive, Jennnnnn, paranoid and, Jenn Jenn, she is arrogant and
Jenn, thank you Jenn for proving to us Jnen, etc. You know the drill.


Many violins sound "better" when processed through mastering and
replaying vinyl than they do live, but hi-fi is about "making it the
same" and not "better". If you want my-fi, get a good stereo parametric
EQ and a compressor. Be honest about it. It isn't a moral failing. But
it isn't fidelity. It's niceness.

This, of course, speaks to the reasons one listens to their audio
systems. IOW, does one listen for accuracy, or does one listen for
music that sounds like music? In regards to audio, this seems like the
eternal question.


Violinists choose violins for career enhancing reasons-orchestras make
good second violinists with Old Cremona instruments first violinists,
because then the orchestra feels its penis is bigger. Old violins are
about penis size and not music, like old guitars, just more money
involved. And whether the violinist or conductor EVEN HAS a penis is
irrelevant. The orchestra has a phantom weenie, like Madge in her
crotch grabbing phase. Since the biggest four-stringed, bowed penises
are 300+ years old they don't really sound all that great, so
processing helps.

Well, I couldn't disagree more.


FWIW, the older generation of violinists and violin recordings were
more euphonic, plus which their "axes' were half a century younger and
sounded better,

Again, this is a generalization with which I disagree.

plus which-yes-recording chains were simpler. So it's
understandable many old LPs of mid-20th century violinists sound better
than many CDs of current violinists. That said, some violin CDs sound
very good and the DVD-A's and SACDs sometimes sound even better.

[George M. Middius]

Bratwig tries to out-dork Twevor.

Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre (in double blind
tests) it doesn't really matter.

**Bull****. Cite any such test.

Please define "budget DVD player".

You know-it-all bozos should take a breath and attack the 'borgs instead
of the guy mocking them.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
ups.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Fella" wrote in message
.. .
Peter wrote:
Is the Ayre C-5xe Universal "Silver Disc" Player really the best "CD
Redbook" Player in the world, as a number of reviewers in both the USA
and Europe seem to believe?

Well since a $39 dvd player sounds the same as the ayre (in double
blind
tests) it doesn't really matter.

**Bull****. Cite any such test. All the budget DVD players I've examined
have serious and audible flaws. Even a 15 year old CD player can beat the
pants off them. Cheap DVD players use primitive output OP amps, which are
similar to the late 1970s vintage 4558 type. Even the very first CD
players
(Philips/Marantz and Sony CDP101) used the vastly superior 5534 and LM833
types. Amost every CD player since, has used these chips. NOw, I have no
idea what the Ayre sounds like, but I can tell you that any reasonable CD
player sounds better than a budget DVD player.


Please define "budget DVD player".

**$39.00.


Also please tell us at what price
point, if any, DVD players have what you consider to be good analog
output sections.

**I've seen good ones at the AUS$1,000.00 price point, but there are likely
to be others. I've not seen them all. OTOH, I've seen CD players priced as
low as AUS$300.00 which have decent analogue stages.


Do budget DVD players have worse physical drives than do the expensive
ones?

**Non-sequitur. I am ONLY speaking of analogue output stages. The transport
is irrelevant.


Perhaps at some level we should look to buying a DVD player with a
decent DAC and drive and modifying it a la Gary Galo or the Njoe Tjoeb
players.

**No need. The steps required to make a cheap DVD player sound respectable
are pretty simple:

* Dump the muting transistors and use relays.
* Dump the 4558 style output chips and use something better. 5534/2 will be
fine, though I prefer the AD825.

Of course, such mods will eclipse the RRP of the DVD player by several
hundred percent.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Arny Krueger]

"Stuart Krivis" wrote in message

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:01:06 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

directly soldered wiring, and again clamping WBTs and
receptacles at the receiving end of the aux amp.

WBT connectors are hugely grossly bad in terms of
reliability, compared to good relay contacts.

I see their RCA plugs claim "The patented two-piece
barrel allows for incredible tightening force to be
applied with minimal effort."

I don't think I really want "incredible tightening
force." It sounds like a good way to ruin your RCA
sockets.

IMO RCA plugs and sockets are sold new and pre-ruined.

I guess you have to buy the special WBT RCA sockets to
match their plugs.

Or hope to avoid RCAs all-together.