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Anonymous wrote:

Who is utterly ignorant of horn theory?
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

Patrick Turner ) aka the turneroid, is a Canberra electrical repairman who pretends to be a manufacturer of hi-fi equipment.

Andre Jute always starts off trying to gently persuade someome towards his
own short sited opinions about
horn speakers or anything else by throwing a bucket of ****e over them.

There is nothing I want to reply to in the insulting post below, where Andre Jute desperately tries
to defend his attempts at horn speaker building.
He says I have dismissed Lowther and Quad products as rubbish.
Unfortunately he tells lies, yet again, in the lofty toned elightist scumbag style of his which
offers no truths about anything technical.
I have not yet heard a pair of Lowthers horns, and I have stated on more than one occasion
that indeed they may be listenable.

But every other pair of horns I have heard were no good to me,
and the other 20 listeners in the audio club.

I have no intention to build any worthwhile horn speakers.
Its not because I could not do it, as Andre suggests,
but because its not a profitable thing to do at this time.
I think using thin resonant panels of MDF board is a poor material to use
for horn speakers.

Andre Jute goes on to put the boot in to me and my business,
but we all know he's just a BS artiste, who continues to foul the Net.

Meanwhile, enjoy the Quads or Lowthers if you happen to be proud owners.
And remember that what you think is best is only your opinion.

And Andre Jute can't make a living selling his own design of products.

Patrick Turner.

Like the others of his kind who have tried to take over RAT as their own personal promotion channel, he proceeds by publicly condemning the products of other manufacturers. Quad has already had a vicious turn at his hands. Now it is Lowther. Of course he isnt fit to lick their boots. But there is mo he is ignorant not only of taste and discrimination, he is ignorant of the very basic physics of the products he so lasciviously condemns. He is even ignorant of the mechanical factors required to copy a successful horn.

With reference to the horn depicted at http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/HWAFhorn.jpg and at http://www.geocities.com/mixtel99/index.html Turner wrote:

The pictures of those horn speakers are almost exactly what a friend of mine
tried to build,

_Tried to build_, eh? Im not trying, you dumb turneroid, Im succeeding. Those are my sixth pair of horns to that pattern alone. All the others are in honourable service. Lowther and Tannoy have worldwide shining reputations for their horns.

except that my friend used thicker MDF, and less internal bends.

Theyre exactly like mine, except the wood is different and the way the empty space is arranged is different? Turner, it may have escaped your notice, but the rest of us all know that a horn enclosure is nothing but wood and air. If your idiot friend arranged both the wood and the air differently, everything about his horn was different to mine, because there is nothing else to a horn. The only other possible additional is the driver, and mine are Lowthers and his Fostex. So tell us, what is the same?

In any event, since I have said nothing about the height of my horn, how do you know that length of his horn matches mine even approximately? This is another turneroid jabbering-butt-with-brain-in-neutral specialty turn.

Next, the size of throat, compression chamber, rate of expansion and size of mouth are all critical, and all depend on the height of the horn enclosure once the footprint is known. How can you tell from a photograph whether any of this matches between his horn and mine?

Do you actually know anything about horns, Turner? More to the point, does this idiot friend of yours?

Did his horn have a second resonance control channel, like mine? Or did he have to build it of extra-heavy MDF because it didnt? You dont even know that critical piece of information, do you? But you claim his horn was a copy of mine.

The sound was truly horrible,

How would you know? You dont go to concerts. You dont know what natural sound is. Even if your pal hadnt screwed up royally (by your own account), you wouldnt have known your arse from your mouth about the sound.

like it there was a good speaker trapped inside a
closed wooden fruit box, with no highs or lows.

Holy ****! You really are ignorant. A horn with the correct fullrange driver (Fostex in the case of your friend) projects the highs off the front of the driver. Nothing to do with it being in a horn enclosure at all. You can get the same highs hanging the bare driver over the back of a chair on a piece of string. Horn drivers are renowned for their highs. You have tin ears, man, and nothing further than your own words above are required to prove it. See a specialist.

Everything else that you describe can be the upshot of either your general tin ears and ignorance of quality sound or of your friends el dumbo errors in designing and constructing his horn. (It is a lot more difficult to design a good horn than to copy other peoples two-box boof-boof trash and stuff them with second-tier drivers, as you do.)

What is said by anyone extolling the virtues of his own efforts has to be taken
with a grain of salt,

That is what I and others have been trying to explain to you about your grinding self-review and self-promotion of your irrelevant products here on RAT. Read your own posts with horror.

because we cannot hear what the product sounds like.

True, you cannot hear my optimized Fidelio. But you can hear a standard factory Fidelio anywhere in the world if you make the effort to educate yourself. You have not educated yourself, Turner. Your jabbering butt is once again spraying a bad case of self-inflicted ignorance over us.

When I build speakers, I leave horns alone.

It is not a matter of choice. You _have_ to leave horns alone because you dont know **** about them and dont have the capital or skill to develop one, or even enough know-how to copy one.

If I wanted a challenge, Id do some DIY electrostatics.

In the process stealing the fruits of Peter Walkers mind without paying royalties for the patents. Youll screw up electrostats too, Turner, because your reference is the bad speakers from which you copied your present box monstrosities. The paradigm for electostats is those concerts you dont attend, real music for the kind of people among whom you feel uncomfortable.

You are a despicable, grubby, greedy liar for commercial reasons, Turner. Anyone who buys anything from Turner Audio, Canberra, by definition doesnt love music.

Andre Jute

Hi Andre,

Do you think you one day you might put some plans on your website
for these speakers? I'm totally sold on the Lowther 'bicor' design,
and I have a nice pair of 8" Jensen coax's that I've been keeping
for a cabinet project one day. I know they're not true full-range
drivers, but concentric.. still. I think I'll have to ditch the
groovy jensen bell-covers to get em' to fit a folded horn, but so
it goes!

EC wrote:

Hi Andre,

Do you think you one day you might put some plans on your website
for these speakers? I'm totally sold on the Lowther 'bicor' design,
and I have a nice pair of 8" Jensen coax's that I've been keeping
for a cabinet project one day. I know they're not true full-range
drivers, but concentric.. still. I think I'll have to ditch the
groovy jensen bell-covers to get em' to fit a folded horn, but so
it goes!

What do you guys think of this one?
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYRH10.html
It's not beautiful, but it does look easier to build than Andre's
speaker.

While on the topic of horns, I have another question... corner horns -
good idea, or no? I have seen many plans for them dating from the early
days of hi-fi, from EV and Klipsch designs, to University, Knight, etc.
Any experiences to share?

About the Jensens... how do they sound in an infinte baffle type
cabinet? I've had great luck using old coax speakers in very large
cabinets, lined with fiberglass insulation. Not to discourage you from
the horn idea, but building a box is a simple project and it might let
you learn enough about the character of the drivers to determine if they
are worth including in a more ambitious horn speaker project.

My only issue with vintage drivers, is they are very delicate, and often
irreplacable in case of a mishap. I wouldn't want to invest too much
money in a system where one false move with the voulme control results
in a pair of very expensive plant stands.

EC wrote:

Hi Andre,

Do you think you one day you might put some plans on your website
for these speakers? I'm totally sold on the Lowther 'bicor' design,
and I have a nice pair of 8" Jensen coax's that I've been keeping
for a cabinet project one day. I know they're not true full-range
drivers, but concentric.. still. I think I'll have to ditch the
groovy jensen bell-covers to get em' to fit a folded horn, but so
it goes!

Andre doesn't have a website.

AFAIK, he uses Lowther designs, not his own.

Patrick Turner.

In article , EC
wrote:

Hi Andre,

Do you think you one day you might put some plans on your website
for these speakers? I'm totally sold on the Lowther 'bicor' design,
and I have a nice pair of 8" Jensen coax's that I've been keeping
for a cabinet project one day. I know they're not true full-range
drivers, but concentric.. still. I think I'll have to ditch the
groovy jensen bell-covers to get em' to fit a folded horn, but so
it goes!

To what feature of the speaker does "bicor" refer? Will any full range
speaker work in these cabinets? Doesn't a speaker require special
characteristics to be suitable for horn loading?

Regards,

John Byrns

Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/

From: Patrick Turner
And Andre Jute can't make a living selling his own design of products.

just ask the scumbag jute about his three international patents or his 27 sold
pairs of type 30 amplifiers or his selling the hemi head design to chrysler

the only thing the psychotic can do is spew hate and vile and lie about himself

and kill off people like my dad

where is my dad's remains andre

why did you kill him off

why don't you pay my family his more than six months of back wages that were
overdue at the time of his disappearance

"BillMayJunior" wrote in message
...

just ask the scumbag jute about his three international patents or his 27
sold pairs of type 30 amplifiers or his selling the hemi head design to
chrysler

the only thing the psychotic can do is spew hate and vile and lie about
himself

and kill off people like my dad

where is my dad's remains andre

I've got them here in an Haitian crypt.

Hope this helps.

Papa Doc

some clueless wannaBEE hero named
"Papa Doc" wrote

I've got them here in an Haitian crypt.

Hope this helps.

So he's still humpin your mama

everyone always said she was a dead piece of ass

"BillMayJunior" wrote in message
...

some clueless wannaBEE hero named
"Papa Doc" wrote

So he's still humpin your mama

No, he's after YOUR ass now. He doesn't discriminate!

everyone always said she was a dead piece of ass

Are you _still_ PO'd that she knocked you back? LOL

"BillMayJunior" wrote in message
...

some clueless wannaBEE hero named
"Papa Doc" wrote

So he's still humpin your mama

No, he's after YOUR ass now. He doesn't discriminate!

your momma did offer your sorry booty for spare change on the streets
instead you were found lickin the dingleberries out the john's cracks

I KNEW I'd heard you jerkin' off behind me.

everyone always said she was a dead piece of ass

Are you _still_ PO'd that she knocked you back?

no

just po'd that your momma put all of her ho money in her nose instead of
doing the right thing and aborting you while she had the chance

Your's still doing time?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha etc

Don't choke!

some clueless wannaBEE transvestite named

"Papa Doc" wrote

your momma did offer your sorry booty for spare change on the streets
instead you were found lickin the dingleberries out the john's cracks

I KNEW I'd heard you jerkin' off behind me.

no

what you heard was your hand choking your chicken furiously underneath the
dress your momma made you wear on the streets while you were eagerly slurping
up the fallen dingleberries that was your prize for the night

just po'd that your momma put all of her ho money in her nose instead of
doing the right thing and aborting you while she had the chance

Your's still doing time?

is your momma still turning tricks on the street

does your momma still make you dress like a transvestite while servicing her
johns from behind

what's it like POPA DOC to bee an arselicker

dare say, you like taking big tubes up your end

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ha etc

Don't choke!

like andre you must also partake of the bull's semen

while your momma licks the semen droplets that fall off of your chin

you must really love that joy juice POPA DOC

SLURP SLURP SLURP AWAY POPA DOC

and your momma never taught you any manners

so clean your chin when your done POPA DOC

SLURP SLURP

I think we have to face it sooner or later: Turner has successfully dumbed down RAT to only the lowest common denominator **** he claims to make, and nothing else can be discussed on RAT without interference from him and his gang. Check his interfering reply to your letter, trying to jump in and muddy the waters before I can reply.

This is a public access group, and Andre Jute has no right to stop me posting the facts about his
libelous activities here at RAT.

Its obvious from his post here he has poor craftmanship and design abilities.
He can't even design a decent horn, uses horrible resonant materials,
and can't do any woodwork beyond a scew and glue.

Sure the waters are muddy, its because Andre Jute has been wading past.

Anyone reading should be very careful building about horn projects,
and I would not take any positive things Andre says about horns too seriously,
unless you get a chance to hear some decent horns in comparison
with other well regarded speakers in a direct AB comparison.

I may not have replied to this post, but every time Andre Jute opens his gob
to say something, he has a jibe at me, my products, etc,
and he just cannot resist being an arsole.

Re your Jensen co-ax drivers: Im not overly impressed with whether a driver is truly fullrange. At the high end most people cant hear anything like 18-20kHz. Several copies of my Impresario, a big sensitive reflex loudspeaker designed down to a price, are in use by people with very sophisticated ears, and on every one of them the tweeter has been disconnected because the point source is more valuable to an educated ear than the frequency extension. (So much for audiophile concerns among those professionally concerned with the highest class of live performance!) The driver is an Eminence guitar 12in job that goes up to about 10K and people with professionally superb ears who can instantly hear if a piano is even slightly out of tune just dont miss the entire top octave of the supposed audio range.

Hmm, Andre's favorite Lo-Fi speakers.....
Imprecisio, is that the model?

Patrick Turner.

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:42:21 -0800 (PST), Anonymous
wrote:

Who is utterly ignorant of horn theory?
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

Based on the drivel being posted by the Sad Jute Sac, it would seem
Jute is substantially ignorant of much that is speaker theory!!

No, any full range speaker will not work. That particular horn in the photographs is designed for a driver with an active area of about 210cm square. Both measurable and qualitative sonic factors hinge on the relationship between the active area and the size of the throat. The size of the compression chamber is also scaled to the driver and the frequency at which you _have_ to roll of the horn, because below that it flaps in free air. Everything about a horn is connected to everything else, and you have to get all the factors right or it doesnt work. There are other considerations to do with horns in general which make a very small range of modern drivers suitable.

Those of us that have been building practical horns already know that
even a cheap paper-coned speaker, of the type frequently found in t.v.
and radio receivers is of sufficiently high quality to drive a horn.
And there are many of these available!

snip more drivel

landed at your door. Horns are a very expensive hobby. That is one reason pseudo-horns like a Voight Pipe with the cheaper, smaller Fostex drivers than the 208, the smaller ones being good down to 60-80c/s depending on size, have such a vogue in Europe, and tiny pipes with even smaller Fostex drivers, good for around 100Hz, are prized in Japan.

So a Voight pipe is a pseudo-horn?

Where do you get your nonsense from? The Voight tuned pipe is a
relative of a transmission line system, basically a quarter wavelength
tapered pipe, closed at sharp end with the driver located one-third of
the length from the closed end. Hardly anything to do with a horn,
that everyone who understands to be an acoustic transformer, matching
the radiation from the speaker with the compliance of the air, giving
a more efficient signal transfer.

The authority of a horn speaker, or even a good Voight pipe, is hard to forget

What is a good Voight pipe? A system is either a Voight pipe, or it
is not, good or bad doesn't come into the matter.

Rest of silly nonsense snipped

..Looking at the designs for the horns on the Lowther site, I can see
where this idiot gets the notion that there is some similarity between
a horn and a quarter-wavelenght tuned pipe! Given that the Lowther
designs are folded horns handling the radiation from the rear of the
driver, it is easy to see how someone that doesn't know better might
confuse these with a transmission line system, with the line length a
function of the quarter wavelength of the design frequency of the
system, that is a relative of a Voight pipe.

What a dill!!!!
regards

Patric Scully

The Soundman

(to email remove dontspammit)

Patric Scully wrote:

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:42:21 -0800 (PST), Anonymous
wrote:

Who is utterly ignorant of horn theory?
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

Based on the drivel being posted by the Sad Jute Sac, it would seem
Jute is substantially ignorant of much that is speaker theory!!

No, any full range speaker will not work. That particular horn in the photographs is designed for a driver with an active area of about 210cm square. Both measurable and qualitative sonic factors hinge on the relationship between the active area and the size of the throat. The size of the compression chamber is also scaled to the driver and the frequency at which you _have_ to roll of the horn, because below that it flaps in free air. Everything about a horn is connected to everything else, and you have to get all the factors right or it doesnt work. There are other considerations to do with horns in general which make a very small range of modern drivers suitable.

Those of us that have been building practical horns already know that
even a cheap paper-coned speaker, of the type frequently found in t.v.
and radio receivers is of sufficiently high quality to drive a horn.
And there are many of these available!

snip more drivel

landed at your door. Horns are a very expensive hobby. That is one reason pseudo-horns like a Voight Pipe with the cheaper, smaller Fostex drivers than the 208, the smaller ones being good down to 60-80c/s depending on size, have such a vogue in Europe, and tiny pipes with even smaller Fostex drivers, good for around 100Hz, are prized in Japan.

So a Voight pipe is a pseudo-horn?

Where do you get your nonsense from? The Voight tuned pipe is a
relative of a transmission line system, basically a quarter wavelength
tapered pipe, closed at sharp end with the driver located one-third of
the length from the closed end. Hardly anything to do with a horn,
that everyone who understands to be an acoustic transformer, matching
the radiation from the speaker with the compliance of the air, giving
a more efficient signal transfer.

The authority of a horn speaker, or even a good Voight pipe, is hard to forget

What is a good Voight pipe? A system is either a Voight pipe, or it
is not, good or bad doesn't come into the matter.

Rest of silly nonsense snipped

.Looking at the designs for the horns on the Lowther site, I can see
where this idiot gets the notion that there is some similarity between
a horn and a quarter-wavelenght tuned pipe! Given that the Lowther
designs are folded horns handling the radiation from the rear of the
driver, it is easy to see how someone that doesn't know better might
confuse these with a transmission line system, with the line length a
function of the quarter wavelength of the design frequency of the
system, that is a relative of a Voight pipe.

What a dill!!!!
regards

Patric Scully

The Soundman

I don't know whether you have noticed how much silly bother
and bruises from hits with lettuce leaves I got from Andre Jute when I dared to suggest that horns were very difficult to make at home.
The Fostex I have seen, used in a friend's project seemed to me to be very
like the cheaper range of speakers you might have seen in 1955 radios,
complete with a whizzer cone, and very fragile, and very expensive.

I have heard a quite well done pair of Voight pipes, when a guy who'd made them
brought pair around, to compare them with my domes and cones in
rectangular boxes. There was nothing the voights could do that mine couldn't.
But they looked interesting, like tall witches hats with speakers.

Patrick Turner.

(to email remove dontspammit)

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