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#1
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're
being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Thanks |
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#2
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"J Antero" wrote in message k.net... I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Not unless you turn it up so loud they are obviously overloaded. |
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#3
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
There should be a power handling capacity tag on the back or under the
grille of your speakers. Check there...it should not matter which decade your equipment comes from. "J Antero" wrote in message k.net... I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Thanks |
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#4
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"J Antero" wrote ...
I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Only if you turn up the volume enough to damage them (and/or your ears). If I buy a new car with double the horsepower, will I get a speeding ticket? Only if I choose to use the extra power to go too fast. |
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#5
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 05:00:38 GMT, J Antero wrote:
I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Can't you manage not having the amp's volume at 10 all the time? |
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#6
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
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#7
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"J Antero" wrote in message k.net... I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Thanks Too many factors to answer the question accurately. If you listen extremely loud, and your receiver doesn't have enough reserve power, any speaker, new or old will be damaged. You can only tell by listening. Specs are just a guideline. |
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#8
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"mc" wrote in
: "J Antero" wrote in message k.net... I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Not unless you turn it up so loud they are obviously overloaded. You have some good advice already so I'll just add my two bits, I have a 35 year old pair of JBL's as my refrence. Yes you will damage the speakers if you crank them up. There are two types of power overload. a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. To much power results in excessive cone motion of the woofer. (smoked woofer) Not enough power and the sound becomes distorted or harsh. (dead tweeter) In the second instance the amp will "clip". I will not go into detail but there are many links on the web. Google Amplifier Clipping and start reading. Gives you a greater respect for good audio amps. etc. Chris C Here is one link http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ ~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/clipping/page1.html |
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#9
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
I'm not sure but I think the 2600 put out 15 watts per channel.
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... "mc" wrote in : "J Antero" wrote in message k.net... I've got a set of old '70's speakers that suit me fine. Right now they're being driven by a late '70s Kenwood kr-2600. I don't know what its output is. If I use a newer receiver/amp with, say, 100 watts output, will the old speakers get wrecked? Not unless you turn it up so loud they are obviously overloaded. You have some good advice already so I'll just add my two bits, I have a 35 year old pair of JBL's as my refrence. Yes you will damage the speakers if you crank them up. There are two types of power overload. a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. To much power results in excessive cone motion of the woofer. (smoked woofer) Not enough power and the sound becomes distorted or harsh. (dead tweeter) In the second instance the amp will "clip". I will not go into detail but there are many links on the web. Google Amplifier Clipping and start reading. Gives you a greater respect for good audio amps. etc. Chris C Here is one link http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/ ~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/clipping/page1.html |
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#10
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"Audio Buff" wrote in message
... a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. Don't forget to explain damping to him. |
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#11
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
news 
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. Don't forget to explain damping to him. Tried to find an easy explanation on the web but to no avail, maybe you have one? Chris C....Fellow Angler;-) |
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#12
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... "Doug Kanter" wrote in news
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. Don't forget to explain damping to him. Tried to find an easy explanation on the web but to no avail, maybe you have one? Chris C....Fellow Angler;-) Simplified to the extreme: Amplifiers need to not only move woofers forward, but also stop them from overtravelling. If they can't, goodbye woofer. The statement about too much power burning out a woofer is ***almost*** 100% bull****. Let's modify the statement. At listening levels which are acceptable to people who are not either profoundly deaf, or under the influence of booze or drugs, more power equals a better listening experience. |
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#13
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Audio Buff wrote: "Doug Kanter" wrote in news
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. Don't forget to explain damping to him. Tried to find an easy explanation on the web but to no avail, maybe you have one? There are quite a few easy explanations for damping out there, do a search for "damping factor." Unfortunately, almost every one of them is wrong. If you are looking for an explanation of how critical "damping factor" is in this context, any one that emphasizes the importance of damping factor as a critical indicator of amplifier performace is likely to be wrong. Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. |
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#14
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Doug Kanter wrote: Simplified to the extreme: Yes, simplified enough to be wrong, too. Amplifiers need to not only move woofers forward, but also stop them from overtravelling. If they can't, goodbye woofer. Uh, no. Unless you are driving the speakers already to the verge of serious excursion limiting already, no amount of damping or lack thereof is going to make a hill of beans difference. What, for example, do you think the excursion difference between a speaker system is going to be given an amplifier with a damping factor of 10,000 and one with a damping factor of, oh, 10? |
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#15
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
wrote in message oups.com... Doug Kanter wrote: Simplified to the extreme: Yes, simplified enough to be wrong, too. Amplifiers need to not only move woofers forward, but also stop them from overtravelling. If they can't, goodbye woofer. Uh, no. Unless you are driving the speakers already to the verge of serious excursion limiting already, no amount of damping or lack thereof is going to make a hill of beans difference. What, for example, do you think the excursion difference between a speaker system is going to be given an amplifier with a damping factor of 10,000 and one with a damping factor of, oh, 10? I don't know, and perhaps my statement is too general. But, it's also too general to say "too much power will hurt the woofer". Think realistically about how your typical audio customer would end up with huge mismatches, and you realize that it's as likely as being hit by lightning, or it was the person's own fault for not seeing (and hearing) the obvious. |
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#16
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
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#17
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
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#19
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Audio Buff wrote: wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) Why, what's to argue? The assertion was made, without any explanation, that somehow damping was relevant to the issue of power levels and driver failure. In fact, it is not. There's certainly little if any difference in thermal dissipation, and there is demonstrably little if any difference in excursion over an enormous range of damping "provided" by the amplifier. BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Well, I never made the assertion that they didn't. I stated that basically, at lower frequencies, driver failures are dominated by mechanical failures caused by excursion, whereas at higher frequencies, thermal damage tends to dominate. That's all. I have examined thousands of failed drivers, and they all basically tell this story. If a woofer is suffering from a mashed voice coil, it's because it was overdriven by low frequencies. If there is clear thermal damage to the voice coil, it's because it was overdriven by higher frequencies. |
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#20
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Audio Buff wrote: "Doug Kanter" wrote in news
"Audio Buff" wrote in message ... a) to much power which will burn out a woofer/crossover. b) not enough power which will burn out a tweeter. Don't forget to explain damping to him. Tried to find an easy explanation on the web but to no avail, maybe you have one? There are quite a few easy explanations for damping out there, do a search for "damping factor." Unfortunately, almost every one of them is wrong. If you are looking for an explanation of how critical "damping factor" is in this context, any one that emphasizes the importance of damping factor as a critical indicator of amplifier performace is likely to be wrong. Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Chris C Another good question: If you have a 300 watt per channel amp, and you gradually turn it louder, how do you know when it's actually making that much power? Let's assume you're just a regular person, without instruments for measuring these things. I have a pair of them--on either side of my head. So do you, as well as the OP. It's just a matter of getting them properly calibrated.... jak |
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#21
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Doug Kanter wrote: Another good question: If you have a 300 watt per channel amp, and you gradually turn it louder, how do you know when it's actually making that much power? Let's assume you're just a regular person, without instruments for measuring these things. Basically, when the high frequencies disappear, it's too much power, whether they disappear because you blew your tweeters, or they disappear because you blew your hearing. If it sounds too f*cking loud, it IS too f*cking loud. |
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#22
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
wrote in news:1142899912.988211.73840
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: Audio Buff wrote: wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) Why, what's to argue? The assertion was made, without any explanation, that somehow damping was relevant to the issue of power levels and driver failure. In fact, it is not. There's certainly little if any difference in thermal dissipation, and there is demonstrably little if any difference in excursion over an enormous range of damping "provided" by the amplifier. BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Well, I never made the assertion that they didn't. I stated that basically, at lower frequencies, driver failures are dominated by mechanical failures caused by excursion, whereas at higher frequencies, thermal damage tends to dominate. That's all. I have examined thousands of failed drivers, and they all basically tell this story. If a woofer is suffering from a mashed voice coil, it's because it was overdriven by low frequencies. If there is clear thermal damage to the voice coil, it's because it was overdriven by higher frequencies. My heads starting to hurt.....interesting thread though, I am going to ask Pat W at speakers only, good guy and does this for a living...speakers that is. Sound man as well and does reconing etc. I'll let you know what he say's. Later guys, Chris C. |
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#23
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"jakdedert" wrote in message
news
So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Chris C Another good question: If you have a 300 watt per channel amp, and you gradually turn it louder, how do you know when it's actually making that much power? Let's assume you're just a regular person, without instruments for measuring these things. I have a pair of them--on either side of my head. So do you, as well as the OP. It's just a matter of getting them properly calibrated.... jak We have a winner! Mr jak has just won a new Amana freezer loaded with Mrs Paul's fish sticks! |
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#24
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
wrote in message
ups.com... Audio Buff wrote: wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) Why, what's to argue? The assertion was made, without any explanation, that somehow damping was relevant to the issue of power levels and driver failure. In fact, it is not. There's certainly little if any difference in thermal dissipation, and there is demonstrably little if any difference in excursion over an enormous range of damping "provided" by the amplifier. Let's talk about a real-life situation: A pair of Boston Acoustics A-40 speakers - little bookshelf things, rated by the manufacturer with a power handling capacity of maybe 100 watts per channel. Drive them all day long at "pretty damned loud" levels, with one Hafler DH-500 per speaker, each amp bridged in mono, meaning something just over 400 watts per speaker. Why don't they fry? |
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#25
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... Audio Buff wrote: wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) Why, what's to argue? The assertion was made, without any explanation, that somehow damping was relevant to the issue of power levels and driver failure. In fact, it is not. There's certainly little if any difference in thermal dissipation, and there is demonstrably little if any difference in excursion over an enormous range of damping "provided" by the amplifier. Let's talk about a real-life situation: A pair of Boston Acoustics A-40 speakers - little bookshelf things, rated by the manufacturer with a power handling capacity of maybe 100 watts per channel. Drive them all day long at "pretty damned loud" levels, with one Hafler DH-500 per speaker, each amp bridged in mono, meaning something just over 400 watts per speaker. Why don't they fry? They don't fry because the actual RMS value of the music is probably way under 10 watts at any given moment. Most speakers, including your Bostons, are getting "pretty damned loud" at around 1 watt average input. Typical speaker efficiency is in the range of 92dB with 1 watt input, measured at 1 meter from the speaker itself. Big amps simply give you lots of headroom for transients, and the ability to run low-efficiency speakers, or those with unusual load impedances. Additionally, a better amp will often have better quality components and perhaps better circuit design, so they may sound better for these reasons. BTW, speaker rating by the manufacturers are a basically a lie unless they state specifically how much power, at what frequency, and for how long. Example: 40 watts at 400Hz for 1 minute. The 100 watt rating for the Bostons, if it were explained accurately, would just mean that a 100 watt amp playing near rated power with MUSIC, without clipping, should not damage the speaker for at least short periods of time. The manufacturers can do no better than this. They cannot control how their products are used or abused. The situation is much worse these days because customers are more ignorant than ever, and salespersons at the stores are mostly just as ignorant, and fail to help educate them. Mark Z. |
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#26
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message m... "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... Audio Buff wrote: wrote in news:1142868065.328193.206000 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: Basically, with the possible exception of exceedinly pathological cases, there is no need to exmpain damping to him because it is, in this context, largely irrelevant. So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) Why, what's to argue? The assertion was made, without any explanation, that somehow damping was relevant to the issue of power levels and driver failure. In fact, it is not. There's certainly little if any difference in thermal dissipation, and there is demonstrably little if any difference in excursion over an enormous range of damping "provided" by the amplifier. Let's talk about a real-life situation: A pair of Boston Acoustics A-40 speakers - little bookshelf things, rated by the manufacturer with a power handling capacity of maybe 100 watts per channel. Drive them all day long at "pretty damned loud" levels, with one Hafler DH-500 per speaker, each amp bridged in mono, meaning something just over 400 watts per speaker. Why don't they fry? They don't fry because the actual RMS value of the music is probably way under 10 watts at any given moment. Most speakers, including your Bostons, are getting "pretty damned loud" at around 1 watt average input. Typical speaker efficiency is in the range of 92dB with 1 watt input, measured at 1 meter from the speaker itself. Big amps simply give you lots of headroom for transients, and the ability to run low-efficiency speakers, or those with unusual load impedances. Additionally, a better amp will often have better quality components and perhaps better circuit design, so they may sound better for these reasons. BTW, speaker rating by the manufacturers are a basically a lie unless they state specifically how much power, at what frequency, and for how long. Example: 40 watts at 400Hz for 1 minute. The 100 watt rating for the Bostons, if it were explained accurately, would just mean that a 100 watt amp playing near rated power with MUSIC, without clipping, should not damage the speaker for at least short periods of time. The manufacturers can do no better than this. They cannot control how their products are used or abused. The situation is much worse these days because customers are more ignorant than ever, and salespersons at the stores are mostly just as ignorant, and fail to help educate them. Mark Z. I think you're correct, and I also think that this entire discussion just evaporated. Wattage doesn't matter. It's how the amp & speaker combination are used. |
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#27
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
wrote in message
oups.com... In essence, the statement "power handling capacity of maybe 100 watts per channel" can mean a lot, and it can mean nothing. I agree. So, back to the person who started this thread - how can his question really be answered? It's almost like asking how many punches a boxer can take to the head before getting goofy. Which boxer? Who's hitting him? How goofy was he beforehand? |
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#28
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... In essence, the statement "power handling capacity of maybe 100 watts per channel" can mean a lot, and it can mean nothing. I agree. So, back to the person who started this thread - how can his question really be answered? It's almost like asking how many punches a boxer can take to the head before getting goofy. Which boxer? Who's hitting him? How goofy was he beforehand? There is an assumption that many novices incorrectly have, that the wattage output is continual. For example someone may say: "my stereo is cranking out 500 watts a channel!" Well, yes and no. In most audio situations, the signal output only has transitional peaks at the highest wattage. During much of the audio signal, it will be relatively quieter and the wattage output will be much lower. (Unless you are very strange, and actually like to listen to cranked out audio sine waves, or huge amounts of clipped audio). ~ Jester |
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#29
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
HangingJester wrote: There is an assumption that many novices incorrectly have, that the wattage output is continual. For example someone may say: "my stereo is cranking out 500 watts a channel!" Well, yes and no. In most audio situations, the signal output only has transitional peaks at the highest wattage. During much of the audio signal, it will be relatively quieter and the wattage output will be much lower. (Unless you are very strange, and actually like to listen to cranked out audio sine waves, or huge amounts of clipped audio). Or listen to many, if not most, modern rock and pop albums that as a result of the "loud" race, have had the bejeebers compressed and limited out of them to the point where we are looking at crest factors in the realm of 2, maybe. |
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#30
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "jakdedert" wrote in message news
So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Chris C Another good question: If you have a 300 watt per channel amp, and you gradually turn it louder, how do you know when it's actually making that much power? Let's assume you're just a regular person, without instruments for measuring these things. I have a pair of them--on either side of my head. So do you, as well as the OP. It's just a matter of getting them properly calibrated.... jak We have a winner! Mr jak has just won a new Amana freezer loaded with Mrs Paul's fish sticks! Oh yum! I don't know where I'll put the freezer, though. Could I trade it for another pair of HPM-100's and a McIntosh 2300? jak Sure. Speak to Vanna on your way out. |
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#31
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Old speakers and new receiver/amp question
Doug Kanter wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "jakdedert" wrote in message news
So much for keeping it simple, I'll let you argue about this one;-) BTW, if drivers do not burn out from to much power then how do you explain a fried driver that has not been subjected to clipping? Chris C Another good question: If you have a 300 watt per channel amp, and you gradually turn it louder, how do you know when it's actually making that much power? Let's assume you're just a regular person, without instruments for measuring these things. I have a pair of them--on either side of my head. So do you, as well as the OP. It's just a matter of getting them properly calibrated.... jak We have a winner! Mr jak has just won a new Amana freezer loaded with Mrs Paul's fish sticks! Oh yum! I don't know where I'll put the freezer, though. Could I trade it for another pair of HPM-100's and a McIntosh 2300? jak Sure. Speak to Vanna on your way out. Ooh yea! In private...as in alone? Better and better.... jak |
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