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Ty Ford[_2_] Ty Ford[_2_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him. He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK, fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 03/02/2021 14:33, Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,


So, how do we feel about subs?

Fun at home, essential when mixing.

A pair of 8 inch, 100 Watts each Wharfedale Active Diamonds and a 600
Watt sub do a very good job on an orchestra and the Grande Orgue I
recorded at Rouen cathedral.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 4/02/2021 3:33 am, Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him. He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK, fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?



Funny how 'subs' has morphed from once being specialised speakers at the
very low end of the spectrum (ie below normal speaker system), solely to
shake your seat and flap your trousers in earthquake movies, to any
speaker that handles the likes of frequencies up to 150 Hz or so.

Three scenarios for today's subs seem to be:
- Completely handling the bass side crossing over around 150Hz (or
whatever). Summing two channels to mono, or two independent subs.
- The above but reinforcing the 'top' speaker that still run full-band
(potentially messy).
- As above again, but tuned to kick in where the top speakers tail off,
with or without crossing over.

In my domestic arrangement my TV has a 'soundbar' that incorporates a
small sub. This arrangement works well for general TV viewing (Panasonic
something-or-other, don't really care !). I purchased this after finding
that the abysmal sound from my new TV was not actually a fault ;- (

For anything that benefits from better sound quality I switch the TV
output to my normal stereo that has speakers that extend reasonably flat
to around 20Hz anyway (KEF R107).

Similarly my studio speakers extend low enough not not need a sub, nut
could possibly benefit as as low -3dB point of 40Hz (Tannoy DMT12)

For hire-out PA systems I generally supply separate subs configured to
either protect or add to the top, depending on the client and nature of gig.

geoff
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 2/3/2021 5:37 PM, geoff wrote:
Funny how 'subs' has morphed from once being specialised speakers at the
very low end of the spectrum (ie below normal speaker system), solely to
shake your seat and flap your trousers in earthquake movies, to any
speaker that handles the likes of frequencies up to 150 Hz or so.


I've noticed that in literature, too, (and litter-ature, that is, less
than competent reviews). A speaker system nowadays is often comprised of
a tweeter and a "subwoofer" with no mention of what the low frequency
driver is "sub" to, other than the tweeter.

Sigh . . .



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gregz gregz is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after
hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room
flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker
cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living
room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system
for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him.
He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK,
fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?


I don't like too much unnatural annoying bass sounds on movies. I think
with room gain, needs at Least -6 dB subtracted.

Greg


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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:00:30 -0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after
hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room
flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker
cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living
room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system
for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him.
He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK,
fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?


I don't like too much unnatural annoying bass sounds on movies. I think
with room gain, needs at Least -6 dB subtracted.

In movies it is called LFE - Low Frequency Effects. So don't expect
anything natural. It's only put there to annoy.

d

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geoff geoff is offline
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On 10/02/2021 10:20 am, geoff wrote:
On 9/02/2021 10:59 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:00:30 -0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after
hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living
room
flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker
cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living
room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system
for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him.
He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK,
fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?

I don't like too much unnatural annoying bass sounds on movies. I think
with room gain, needs at Least -6 dB subtracted.

In movies it is called LFE - Low Frequency Effects. So don't expect
anything natural. It's only put there to annoy.

d



Take away the LFE and these days there would be much of a movie left.
'Action-movies' at least.

geoff


Ooops. Make that " wouldn't ".

geoff

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Ty Ford[_2_] Ty Ford[_2_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

In movies it is called LFE - Low Frequency Effects. So don't expect
anything natural. It's only put there to annoy.


Yes, I'm sure. Annoyance is always the goal.

Take away the LFE and these days there wouldn't be much of a movie left.
'Action-movies' at least.

geoff


Apparently! Although the first movie I watched after installing the Polk sub was "Hook", a Spielberg take off on Peter Pan, starring the late Robin Williams. There, the LF info was mostly within the John Williams orchestra score. I didn't fin that annoying at all. So I guess context and abuse are important. I have a friend who calls Action movies "Metal Movies" because of the use of cars, motorcycles, space ships and guns of any sort. She finds their use and misuse to be part of a bigger problem; "why even bother to have movies like that?"

Regards,

Ty Ford


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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geoff wrote:

Take away the LFE and these days there would be much of a movie left.
'Action-movies' at least.


I was working at a science fiction convention setting up projectors
and noticed one of the film cans was for a recent popular action film.
"What is that film about?" I asked the projectionist. "It's about things
blowing up," he said.
--scott
--
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?


Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Subs for music are problematic because integration becomes a problem. Charlie
Hayden does a run down the bass and the tone and position of his instrument
changes somewhere along the line. For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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geoff geoff is offline
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On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?


Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.


Bed-head thumping against the wall ?

geoff
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polymod polymod is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?


Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.


Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


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On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"¬* wrote in message ...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford¬* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?


Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.


Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?

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On 2/11/2021 8:13 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"* wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or
more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.


Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?

Water bed tsunami blub! :-)


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geoff geoff is offline
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On 12/02/2021 2:13 pm, gray_wolf wrote:
On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"¬* wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford¬* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or
more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.


Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?


Crunch.... squelch...pop .

geoff

geoff
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


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Chris K-Man Chris K-Man is offline
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On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:08:41 AM UTC-5, Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply dep
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

___________

For consumers, is knowing the lower frequency response number enough to set up a sub - for music and movies?

At work, when setting up stereo equipment demos that include a powered subwoofer, the first thing I do, instinctively, is to look on the a back of the mains speakers for freq. response. If I see "90Hz" at the low end, I set the X-over freq. on the sub(if adjustment is available) to just a hair below the 90 hashmark(or halfway between 75 and 100Hz, of those are the closest).
I then set the subwoofer output control to its midpoint, put on some music to listen to, and fine tune from there.

Is that a reasonable process, in absence of taking measurement?
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:08:52 +1100, Trevor wrote:

On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

d

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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gray_wolf gray_wolf is offline
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On 11/02/2021 9:05 pm, geoff wrote:
On 12/02/2021 2:13 pm, gray_wolf wrote:
On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"¬* wrote in message ...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford¬* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?

ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?


Crunch.... squelch...pop .

geoff


It was Bang!! Crash!! Then she whispers "I'll bet this woke Evelyn up."


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On 13/02/2021 1:44 am, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:08:52 +1100, Trevor wrote:

On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.



Yep, hate the use of "sub" for almost any speaker that is not strictly a
tweeter these days! :-(


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On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."


Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

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On 2/12/2021 5:41 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
--scott

And the EQ of the recording. And the LF roll-off characteristics of the
pre-amp and amplifier.

IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none of
the variables really matter.

--
best regards,

Neil


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On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."


Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.


What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?

Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
do you need?

I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.
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On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:26:03 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."


Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.


What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?

Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
do you need?

I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.


You can't correct a room. When rooms are bad it is because they have
resonant modes. these result in huge drops in level at various spots
in the room where waves out of phase cancel. If you try to correct
that, the result is far too much level at other spots. So if you have
a bad room, you have to correct the room.

For integrating the sub and correcting speaker lumpiness I use
Sonarworks. And it works.

d

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Chuck[_14_] Chuck[_14_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:26:03 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:31:59 -0800 (PST), "Roy W. Rising" wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."


Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.


What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?

Has anyone eveer used the built-in Denon receiver room acousticss software adjustments feature? If so, how effective is it, and at what upgrade level
do you need?

I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.

I used the Denon room auto-eq system setting up a NHT 7.1 system with
a HSU subwoofer. If one places the microphone correctly for your
normal sitting position, the result was quite good.
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On 15/02/2021 12:26, wrote:

What do you use you blend it in so the sound is seamless? An equaliaer? The sub controls?

Level controls in the main speaker amps and the sub, parametric
equalisation, room treatment such as acoustic foam at the reflection
points and bass traps. Enough soft furnishings. As I said, it's not
straightforward. Placing the sub on the mix engineer's chair and
crawling round the room until I got the best balance on the bass, then
putting the sub where my head had been was part of it. The tricky bit is
controlling room reverb while avoiding standing waves, and concepts such
as live end/ dead end come into play.

Still, once it was done, that was it. It was a pain, but it was worth
the effort.

I am about to build a control and mixing room for a recording space, and
the space available is a bit too small to be ideal, so I am using tricks
like a sloping ceiling and non-parallel walls.

The sweet spot in the last one I set up was reasonably large, but if you
were in exactly the right position, it sounded like the world's biggest
pair of headphones, but with bass you could feel.

I have a Yamaha YST-SW315, which seems adequate, but I've always been intriqued by the Denon claims. My old Pioneer VSX-31 has room adjustment to some
degree, but I was never quite satisfied that their version worked well.

The problem with all such adjustments is that they can only adjust what
leaves the speaker, not what happens to it afterwards, and getting that
right is the tricky bit.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

Most rooms have nodes that peak or dip at certain frequencies. That's normal. I happened to show up at a motel in LA once where there was an AES meeting. They put a big bin speaker on wheels and moved it around the room. They'd put it in one place and play a low tone, then either change the frequency or change the position of the speaker. You could walk around in the room and hear the nodes and that they'd moved after frequency or position had been changed.

I have a spot in my studio that I use to check low end, If the bass is woofy or pillowy there, I know I need to EQ or process the low end differently.


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.


And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.



If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.




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On 15/02/2021 10:27 pm, Neil wrote
IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none of
the variables really matter.


Yes that would be an opinion only. I always laugh when people try to
play pipe organ music on their LS3A's for example. :-)
Some speakers don't really need a sub, others definitely do.





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On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:20:22 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
wrote:

Most rooms have nodes that peak or dip at certain frequencies. That's normal. I happened to show up at a motel in LA once where there was an AES meeting. They put a big bin speaker on wheels and moved it around the room. They'd put it in one place and play a low tone, then either change the frequency or change the position of the speaker. You could walk around in the room and hear the nodes and that they'd moved after frequency or position had been changed.

I have a spot in my studio that I use to check low end, If the bass is woofy or pillowy there, I know I need to EQ or process the low end differently.


Peaks are necessarily quite small and only really occur in a room that
is plagued by large dips. My listening room started out with low end
dips of around 30dB. Judicious placement of absorption and diffusion
have dropped that to about 10dB in the worst spots. Trying to do
better than that meant the room started to approach anechoic, and that
is no use. But as it is there is nowhere in the room that I actually
lose any bass notes.

d

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My studio is all in one room. No control room. The space is tight, but not dead. Even non-audio and sound folks sometimes say things like, "Wow! It sounds really different in this room and really quiet. How did you do that?"

If I'm not doing any critical listening to my monitors from the places in my studio where there are peaks or dips, I don't think judicious placement of absorption or diffusion are necessary.

In fact, having that 2 foot diameter spot over by the curtain where the low end blooms if there's something that needs fixing in the low end of my mix is a good thing. I also listen to mixes by walking around in that room and also walk into the bathroom and next room just to make sure the balance is steady -- and for a little exercise!


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In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.


If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.


Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On 2/17/2021 9:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.


If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.


Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott

+1

Do the math on the LF wavelength and one will see that very few homes
will have rooms large enough. Then the fun begins...

--
best regards,

Neil
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Neil[_9_] Neil[_9_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On 2/16/2021 11:05 PM, Trevor wrote:
On 15/02/2021 10:27 pm, Neil wrote
IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none
of the variables really matter.


Yes that would be an opinion only. I always laugh when people try to
play pipe organ music on their LS3A's for example. :-)


Unless your playback room is the size of the cathedral, you're just
going for a visceral response with a sub-woofer.

--
best regards,

Neil
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Subwoofers! Etc.

On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:29:44 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/17/2021 9:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.

If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.


Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott

+1

Do the math on the LF wavelength and one will see that very few homes
will have rooms large enough. Then the fun begins...


Think how small a room you have with headphones. The bass in there is
perfectly manageable. It just takes effort and some cash.

d

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Neil[_9_] Neil[_9_] is offline
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On 2/17/2021 11:34 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:29:44 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/17/2021 9:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.

If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.

Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott

+1

Do the math on the LF wavelength and one will see that very few homes
will have rooms large enough. Then the fun begins...


Think how small a room you have with headphones. The bass in there is
perfectly manageable. It just takes effort and some cash.

d

Apples vs. oranges, really.

--
best regards,

Neil
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On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 14:59:16 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/17/2021 11:34 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:29:44 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/17/2021 9:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.

If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.

Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott

+1

Do the math on the LF wavelength and one will see that very few homes
will have rooms large enough. Then the fun begins...


Think how small a room you have with headphones. The bass in there is
perfectly manageable. It just takes effort and some cash.

d

Apples vs. oranges, really.


No. Small rooms vs smaller rooms. The physics doesn't change.

d

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