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geoff geoff is offline
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On 23/02/2017 3:00 PM, RS Wood wrote:
From the Ā«blocking out the madnessĀ» department:
Title: Ask The Wirecutter: How to Decide Which Headphones to Buy (Hint: Not Apples AirPods)
Author: DAMON DARLIN
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 11:10:36 -0500
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/te...er=rss&emc=rss
Podcast Download URL: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017...WIRE1-moth.jpg

With so many choices available, shopping for earphones can be daunting. A
headphone editor suggests buying two cheaper pairs suited to different needs.


Kind of depends if you want headphones for high quality sound, or as a
fashion accessory.

geoff

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Adrian Caspersz Adrian Caspersz is offline
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On 19/04/17 12:05, geoff wrote:

Kind of depends if you want headphones for high quality sound, or as a
fashion accessory.


Or as a covert DIY hearing aid ..

The future is going to see them rather prominent and fashionable like
eyewear, and additionally integrated with the music/phone (possibly that
made the user deaf in the first place[1]).

On that subject, like a prescription for glasses, is there a written
standard of writing one for hearing aids?

With the rip-off shameful high cost of some of these (thousands) praying
on folks that want them so covert, surely a home build DSP project
(opensource?) is possible with knowledge of the right parameters? or use
of a cheaper Generic device for sale?

[1] - Shouldn't joke. That will eventually be me.... Loud electronica
music fan here.

--
Adrian C
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Mike Spencer Mike Spencer is offline
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Adrian Caspersz writes:

On 19/04/17 12:05, geoff wrote:

Kind of depends if you want headphones for high quality sound, or as a
fashion accessory.


Or as a covert DIY hearing aid ..

The future is going to see them rather prominent and fashionable like
eyewear, and additionally integrated with the music/phone (possibly that
made the user deaf in the first place[1]).


AFAICT the circuit design and tuning controls are sophisticated,
albeit straigtforward, electronics but the big bucks are for fitting
all that into a widget the size of a fava bean.

I'd be happy to wear headphones or earbuds and carry a widget the size
of a large cell phone if it worked for my hearing loss and cost a few
hundred bucks instead of the ca. $2,000 per ear.

On that subject, like a prescription for glasses, is there a written
standard of writing one for hearing aids?


Bandwidth tuning, noise cancellation -- what else? See
"sophisticated" supra. I'm guessing that "adjusting" a modern hearing
aid is done by connecting it to a computer and proprietary software.
They're too small to support an array of little adjusting screws.

With the rip-off shameful high cost of some of these (thousands) praying
on folks that want them so covert, surely a home build DSP project
(opensource?) is possible with knowledge of the right parameters? or use
of a cheaper Generic device for sale?


Where's this happening? I high-frequency loss, speech discrimination
loss and tinitis. But I'm weak on serious math and know almost noting
about electronic hardware. There was a brief flurry of interest in
DSP projects in Halifax (NS) circa 1994 but I think it's faded away.


[1] - Shouldn't joke. That will eventually be me.... Loud electronica
music fan here.


Wroking around loud engines, running power tools and hammering at the
anvil are quite enough, thanks, without rock n' roll.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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The Real Bev The Real Bev is offline
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On 04/19/2017 11:55 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
Adrian Caspersz writes:

On 19/04/17 12:05, geoff wrote:

Kind of depends if you want headphones for high quality sound, or as a
fashion accessory.


Or as a covert DIY hearing aid ..

The future is going to see them rather prominent and fashionable like
eyewear, and additionally integrated with the music/phone (possibly that
made the user deaf in the first place[1]).


AFAICT the circuit design and tuning controls are sophisticated,
albeit straigtforward, electronics but the big bucks are for fitting
all that into a widget the size of a fava bean.

I'd be happy to wear headphones or earbuds and carry a widget the size
of a large cell phone if it worked for my hearing loss and cost a few
hundred bucks instead of the ca. $2,000 per ear.


FWIW, the $2K ones aren't necessarily good either. My mom had hers
adjusted repeatedly, but they never got it right. All she wanted was to
be able to understand the women on TV, but the adjustments to improve
higher voices also heightened annoying higher-frequency sounds. That
was in 2005, maybe the tech is better now. Equalizers have been around
for quite a while, though.

I don't think the fact that they're made from a mold of the person's ear
canal is important. I asked my ENT guy about using hers if I ever
needed them, and he said Fine, just have them adjusted for you. Not
much hope, but it won't cost $2K/ear to try!

On that subject, like a prescription for glasses, is there a written
standard of writing one for hearing aids?


Bandwidth tuning, noise cancellation -- what else? See
"sophisticated" supra. I'm guessing that "adjusting" a modern hearing
aid is done by connecting it to a computer and proprietary software.
They're too small to support an array of little adjusting screws.


Yes. There's just an on/off switch on the device itself.

With the rip-off shameful high cost of some of these (thousands) praying
on folks that want them so covert, surely a home build DSP project
(opensource?) is possible with knowledge of the right parameters? or use
of a cheaper Generic device for sale?


Where's this happening? I high-frequency loss, speech discrimination
loss and tinitis. But I'm weak on serious math and know almost noting
about electronic hardware. There was a brief flurry of interest in
DSP projects in Halifax (NS) circa 1994 but I think it's faded away.


[1] - Shouldn't joke. That will eventually be me.... Loud electronica
music fan here.


Wroking around loud engines, running power tools and hammering at the
anvil are quite enough, thanks, without rock n' roll.


I do love the sound of an unmuffled helicopter taking off. R&R hasn't
been that good since the Beatles destroyed it.

--
Cheers, Bev
"The last thing you want is for somebody to commit suicide
before executing them."
-Gary Deland, former Utah director for corrections
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Michael Black[_2_] Michael Black[_2_] is offline
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On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, The Real Bev wrote:

On 04/19/2017 11:55 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
Adrian Caspersz writes:

On 19/04/17 12:05, geoff wrote:

Kind of depends if you want headphones for high quality sound, or as a
fashion accessory.

Or as a covert DIY hearing aid ..

The future is going to see them rather prominent and fashionable like
eyewear, and additionally integrated with the music/phone (possibly that
made the user deaf in the first place[1]).


AFAICT the circuit design and tuning controls are sophisticated,
albeit straigtforward, electronics but the big bucks are for fitting
all that into a widget the size of a fava bean.

I'd be happy to wear headphones or earbuds and carry a widget the size
of a large cell phone if it worked for my hearing loss and cost a few
hundred bucks instead of the ca. $2,000 per ear.


FWIW, the $2K ones aren't necessarily good either. My mom had hers adjusted
repeatedly, but they never got it right. All she wanted was to be able to
understand the women on TV, but the adjustments to improve higher voices also
heightened annoying higher-frequency sounds. That was in 2005, maybe the
tech is better now. Equalizers have been around for quite a while, though.

I don't think the fact that they're made from a mold of the person's ear
canal is important. I asked my ENT guy about using hers if I ever needed
them, and he said Fine, just have them adjusted for you. Not much hope, but
it won't cost $2K/ear to try!

I think early hearing aids used actual transducers like those that used to
come with transistor radios. But somewhere along the line, the transducer
stayed in the hearing aid (certainly after the ones that fit over or in
the ear), and so there's just audio coupling to the ear. The fitting of
the piece to one's ear just seems comfort, and I maybe for best coupling.
Now that all the rock stars are using in-ear monitors, they all have
custom fitted ear pieces.

I wonder if the hearing aids now have become like other things, they make
the hardware really cheap, and it applies to all, but the more money you
spend, the better the software or adjustment. Or featurs kick in as the
money paid rises, but it's the software that makes this hearing aid better
than that one, rather than the hardware.

Michael


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 20/04/2017 11:49 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
The Real Bev writes:
FWIW, the $2K ones aren't necessarily good either.

Some are even more. Mine were.


You can actually pay well over $5K each. They are better of course, but
a complete bloody rip off! Much of the cost goes to the Audiologists
retirement fund.


My mom had hers adjusted repeatedly, but they never got it right.
she wanted was to be able to understand the women on TV, but the
adjustments to improve higher voices also heightened annoying
higher-frequency sounds. That was in 2005, maybe the tech is better
now. Equalizers have been around for quite a while, though.


Hearing aids don't just pump up the volume on frequencies you can't
hear. I'm not an expert, but I do know it takes time to adjust to
hearing aids, so I assume there is frequency shifting going on. More
than that, the hearing aid "knows" what kind of sound situation you
are in. Mine reports things like:

listening to music
driving
crowded room
TV

So, they are pretty far from an equalizer.


Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.



I don't think the fact that they're made from a mold of the person's
ear canal is important.


If they are in ear types it sure is, Everybody's ear canal is different
and they often won't fit or will be very uncomfortable if they do.


I asked my ENT guy about using hers if I ever
needed them, and he said Fine, just have them adjusted for you. Not
much hope, but it won't cost $2K/ear to try!


One of the harder parts about wearing them is the discomfort after
wearing them for hours. If they sell models with generic shape
give them a try. What do you have to loose?

Hearing aids are much cheaper if you get one with the battery behind
the ear and a little wire and plug.


You can in fact buy *proper* aids from companies like Resound and
Siemens brand new on ebay for less than $200. Not their top of the line
models of course. Sadly the prices seem to increase exponentially for
minor improvements.

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geoff geoff is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:


Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?

geoff


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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On 21/04/2017 6:00 AM, geoff wrote:
On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:
Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty, although perhaps you are?
Sadly most people never get them adjusted to maximum performance because
after going back a few times to the audiologist they get sick of it and
give up. Even worse, many who get free aids through the government
pension scheme give up, throw them in the draw and never use them. I
know a few like that, a complete waste of taxpayer money to subsidise
audiologists pension funds. :-(



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geoff geoff is offline
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On 21/04/2017 4:27 PM, Trevor wrote:
nd Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty,


That's why everybody can be an expert concert mixing engineer too.


although perhaps you are?


Clearly.

geoff
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~misfit~[_3_] ~misfit~[_3_] is offline
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Once upon a time on usenet Trevor wrote:
On 21/04/2017 6:00 AM, geoff wrote:
On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:
Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have
Bluetooth control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a
hearing aid. Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply
because the Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from
fitting and adjusting the aids. And some of the ones that do have
control over volume and mode settings via Bluetooth only work with
iPhones because they are too slack to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty, although perhaps you are?
Sadly most people never get them adjusted to maximum performance
because after going back a few times to the audiologist they get sick
of it and give up. Even worse, many who get free aids through the
government pension scheme give up, throw them in the draw and never
use them. I know a few like that, a complete waste of taxpayer money
to subsidise audiologists pension funds. :-(


What's a "draw"?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)




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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

Trevor writes:

On 21/04/2017 6:00 AM, geoff wrote:
On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:
Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty, although perhaps you are?
Sadly most people never get them adjusted to maximum performance
because after going back a few times to the audiologist they get sick
of it and give up. Even worse, many who get free aids through the
government pension scheme give up, throw them in the draw and never
use them. I know a few like that, a complete waste of taxpayer money
to subsidise audiologists pension funds. :-(


I find unsubstantiated cynicism disturbing.
It speaks to paranoia which is a mental illness.
Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any insurance,
let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists
have pension funds? Apparently, only you.

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids, I'd like a copy, and I don't buy any
safety arguments. But I don't know how to analyze the
results of a hearing test and convert that into hearing aid
settings. I'm not upset that I don't have the software.
It's probably just as well.

--
Dan Espen
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Rich[_4_] Rich[_4_] is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

In comp.misc Trevor wrote:
On 21/04/2017 6:00 AM, geoff wrote:
On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:
Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty, although perhaps you are?
Sadly most people never get them adjusted to maximum performance because
after going back a few times to the audiologist they get sick of it and
give up.


And some (my grandmother and my mother) waited until they were deaf
enough before trying any that they had gotten acclimated to the "quiet"
that results from being considerably deaf. And after putting them in
their ears all they wanted to do was turn the volume way down because
of all the "noise" (all the normal background sounds that those of us
with normal hearing can't turn off, so our brains learn to ignore it).
Resulting in significantly reduced effectiveness of the hearing aid,
and eventual frustration and giving up on the devices as "they just
don't work".

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Johnny B Good Johnny B Good is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:00:07 +1200, geoff wrote:

On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:


Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and
mode settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too
slack to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


+1

It might interest you to know that the classic 20KHz "Upper Frequency
Limit of Human Hearing" is derived from the point on the Fletcher Munsen
response curves where this upper frequency corresponds to both the
highest detectable single tone frequency and the the threshold of pain
(aka dangerously high SPL).

As we age beyond our early twenties, this upper limit where we can sense
a single tone frequency at the maximum safe SPL threshold drops in
frequency. Continuous exposure to high SPLs accelerates this reduction in
the maximum frequency limit of hearing in each individual's case. It's
quite important to tailor a hearing aid's frequency response and gain so
as to avoid needlessly doing more harm than good.

--
Johnny B Good
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Julian Macassey Julian Macassey is offline
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On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,


I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.

I'd like a copy, and I don't buy any
safety arguments. But I don't know how to analyze the
results of a hearing test and convert that into hearing aid
settings.


Have you considered that the software takes care of that?

I'm not upset that I don't have the software.
It's probably just as well.


Is the software a proprietary app that is written by and
for the hearing aid manufacturer?



--
Communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole
country. - Vladimir Lenin
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Julian Macassey writes:

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access the hearing
aids,


I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a less mediocre
platform.


Yep.

I'd like a copy, and I don't buy any safety arguments. But I don't
know how to analyze the results of a hearing test and convert that
into hearing aid settings.


Have you considered that the software takes care of that?


That occurred to me after hitting send. That might be where my original
settings came from, but I had a few visits, interviews and 2 adjustments
so far.

I'm not upset that I don't have the software. It's probably just as
well.


Is the software a proprietary app that is written by and for the
hearing aid manufacturer?


I'm sure.

The manufacturer is Phonak...

okay, my audiologist told me the software wasn't available, but here it
is:

https://www.phonakpro.com/us/en/supp...downloads.html
http://tinyurl.com/me9ozjl

THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE BY UNQUALIFIED PERSONS AS A NON-HEARING CARE
PROFESSIONAL CAN RESULT IN PERSONAL INJURY. PHONAK IS EXEMPT FROM ANY
LIABILITY WHICH OCCURS BY SUCH UNAUTHORIZED USE.

Looks like Phonak sells instructions:

https://www.phonakpro.com/us/en/supp...fg-target.html
http://tinyurl.com/kpnp8wq

I didn't try to log in.


--
Dan Espen


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Julian Macassey Julian Macassey is offline
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On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:28:36 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
Julian Macassey writes:

hearing aid manufacturer?


I'm sure.

The manufacturer is Phonak...

okay, my audiologist told me the software wasn't available, but here it
is:

https://www.phonakpro.com/us/en/supp...downloads.html
http://tinyurl.com/me9ozjl


Software and manual I note.


THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE BY UNQUALIFIED PERSONS AS A NON-HEARING CARE
PROFESSIONAL CAN RESULT IN PERSONAL INJURY. PHONAK IS EXEMPT FROM ANY
LIABILITY WHICH OCCURS BY SUCH UNAUTHORIZED USE.


In other words "NO USER SERVICABLE PARTS INSIDE". We've
all seen that before.


--
"They hate our freedoms" - George W. Bush, September 20, 2001
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RS Wood RS Wood is offline
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Default [CM] Hearing aids -- back to Headphones

On 2017-04-21, Dan Espen wrote:
I find unsubstantiated cynicism disturbing. It speaks to paranoia which
is a mental illness. Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any
insurance, let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists have
pension funds? Apparently, only you.


An interesting and unfortunate segue. Turns out Bose headphones have just
been observed sending data back to headquarters that includes some
surprisingly personal data, like lists of the songs you're listening to.
You've got to install their Bose app on your smartphone for this to happen,
and you don't necessarily need the app. Still, an issue.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...teners-n748311

You can see where a bunch of audio engineers would find value in knowing
what songs were actually being listened to so they can tailor the equipment
to play that music well. Still, an issue.

Lots of nerd rage at Hacker News:
http://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145
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RS Wood writes:

On 2017-04-21, Dan Espen wrote:
I find unsubstantiated cynicism disturbing. It speaks to paranoia which
is a mental illness. Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any
insurance, let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists have
pension funds? Apparently, only you.


An interesting and unfortunate segue. Turns out Bose headphones have just
been observed sending data back to headquarters that includes some
surprisingly personal data, like lists of the songs you're listening to.
You've got to install their Bose app on your smartphone for this to happen,
and you don't necessarily need the app. Still, an issue.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...teners-n748311

You can see where a bunch of audio engineers would find value in knowing
what songs were actually being listened to so they can tailor the equipment
to play that music well. Still, an issue.


Audio engineers? I think not.
This Bose thing is pretty simple, Bose planned to sell the data to data
mining companies. (The article mentions this.)
That's the sales people and management. They are just trying to
maximize profit at the expense of their customers.

--
Dan Espen
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 2:54 AM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:00:07 +1200, geoff wrote:

On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:


Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and
mode settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too
slack to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


+1

It might interest you to know that the classic 20KHz "Upper Frequency
Limit of Human Hearing" is derived from the point on the Fletcher Munsen
response curves where this upper frequency corresponds to both the
highest detectable single tone frequency and the the threshold of pain
(aka dangerously high SPL).

As we age beyond our early twenties, this upper limit where we can sense
a single tone frequency at the maximum safe SPL threshold drops in
frequency.


And you really think this is not common knowledge? You could have added
it is worse for males than females if you just want to state the obvious.


Continuous exposure to high SPLs accelerates this reduction in
the maximum frequency limit of hearing in each individual's case. It's
quite important to tailor a hearing aid's frequency response and gain so
as to avoid needlessly doing more harm than good.


What a load of crap, most hearing aids don't go past 8kHz. The damage is
already done by loud rock bands and perhaps using MP3 players at
excessive levels. Still I agree for people like yourself who are
apparently unable to do the job properly, better leave it to a
professional. I guess you have an audiologist adjust you HiFi volume and
TV volume control as well! :-)

FWIW, there IS one company who provides self programmable aids and the
software to do it, Blamey-Saunders. I bet their customers are told what
not to do as I would expect. And I bet they like having control
themselves. People who don't have far more alternative choices though. :-(

Trevor.

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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 21/04/2017 10:17 PM, geoff wrote:
On 21/04/2017 4:27 PM, Trevor wrote:
nd Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty,


That's why everybody can be an expert concert mixing engineer too.


And why everybody needs an audiologist to adjust their HiFi for them
perhaps?

Trevor.




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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 1:12 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
I find unsubstantiated cynicism disturbing.
It speaks to paranoia which is a mental illness.


So go over to an amateur phychoanalysis group then, perhaps you could
discuss if they are any worse than people who claim others have a mental
illness because they disagree with you, and have been around long enough
to know how the world actually works.


Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any insurance,
let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists
have pension funds? Apparently, only you.


Apparently lots you don't know, like the fact the world consists of
countries other than the USA! :-)


Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.


I must have missed where ANYONE suggested otherwise? Although many
people don't need every year though if they could adjust the aids
themselves. Every couple of years is enough for most people, and
certainly before buying new aids.


My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids, I'd like a copy, and I don't buy any
safety arguments. But I don't know how to analyze the
results of a hearing test and convert that into hearing aid
settings.


But many here do. More to the point, once you have done the initial
set-up from your audiogram, you still have to fine tune them by ear. It
is *THAT* trial and error process that is a complete pain for many if
they have to go to an audiologist a dozen times and still not be happy! :-(


I'm not upset that I don't have the software.
It's probably just as well.


Which is fine for you of course. I never suggested it should be
compulsory! However people who think they should control *everyone* else
based on *their* preference are simply assholes. :-(

Trevor.


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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 2:31 AM, Rich wrote:
In comp.misc Trevor wrote:
On 21/04/2017 6:00 AM, geoff wrote:
On 20/04/2017 9:34 PM, Trevor wrote:
Actually they are just an amplifier, active equaliser and compressor
with various stored custom settings like the ones you mention.
What really ****es me off is that it is so simple now to have Bluetooth
control from your mobile phone over all parameters of a hearing aid.
Sadly there are no aids available that do that simply because the
Audiologists want to keep their huge profits from fitting and adjusting
the aids. And some of the ones that do have control over volume and mode
settings via Bluetooth only work with iPhones because they are too slack
to write the apps for Android.


Or maybe they don't want every know-all Tom Dick and Harry further
damaging their hearing by inept use and settings ?


Yeah that's what the Audiologists want you to believe!!!
Not everyone is a complete numpty, although perhaps you are?
Sadly most people never get them adjusted to maximum performance because
after going back a few times to the audiologist they get sick of it and
give up.


And some (my grandmother and my mother) waited until they were deaf
enough before trying any that they had gotten acclimated to the "quiet"
that results from being considerably deaf. And after putting them in
their ears all they wanted to do was turn the volume way down because
of all the "noise" (all the normal background sounds that those of us
with normal hearing can't turn off, so our brains learn to ignore it).
Resulting in significantly reduced effectiveness of the hearing aid,
and eventual frustration and giving up on the devices as "they just
don't work".


Not quite as simple as you state though. Hearing aids DO increase
background noise and make it harder to discriminate the desired sounds
from undesired ones than for a person with normal hearing. The most
expensive aids are getting better at this, but still have a long way to
go. The big problem is many people who need them can't afford the most
expensive aids though, and the huge audiologists mark ups only makes
that problem worse!

Trevor.


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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

Trevor writes:

On 22/04/2017 1:12 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any insurance,
let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists
have pension funds? Apparently, only you.


Apparently lots you don't know, like the fact the world consists of
countries other than the USA! :-)


No, actually I did know that at least Australia pensions it's audiologists.
You could have guessed that when you saw that I mentioned the US.

--
Dan Espen
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 1:15 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Trevor wrote:


government pension scheme give up, throw them in the draw and never
use them. I know a few like that, a complete waste of taxpayer money
to subsidise audiologists pension funds. :-(


What's a "draw"?


They raffle them off ?!!!

geoff
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 8:29 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,


I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.


Given that the operating system would have absolutely no bearing on the
quality of the software, the operation of it, or the results, why ?


Or must serious applications only be used by iDiots or Lidiots ?

geoff


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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 11:04 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
..

okay, my audiologist told me the software wasn't available, but here it
is:

https://www.phonakpro.com/us/en/supp...downloads.html
http://tinyurl.com/me9ozjl


Software and manual I note.


THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE BY UNQUALIFIED PERSONS AS A NON-HEARING CARE
PROFESSIONAL CAN RESULT IN PERSONAL INJURY. PHONAK IS EXEMPT FROM ANY
LIABILITY WHICH OCCURS BY SUCH UNAUTHORIZED USE.


Image the lawsuits otherwise....


In other words "NO USER SERVICABLE PARTS INSIDE". We've
all seen that before.



And isn't that just as well ! I'd be out of a job, and don't fancy
changing to be salesman or mortician.

geoff

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Default [CM] Hearing aids -- back to Headphones

On 23/04/2017 8:38 AM, RS Wood wrote:
On 2017-04-21, Dan Espen wrote:
I find unsubstantiated cynicism disturbing. It speaks to paranoia which
is a mental illness. Hearing aids are mostly not covered by any
insurance, let alone US government payments. Who knew audiologists have
pension funds? Apparently, only you.


An interesting and unfortunate segue. Turns out Bose headphones have just
been observed sending data back to headquarters that includes some
surprisingly personal data, like lists of the songs you're listening to.
You've got to install their Bose app on your smartphone for this to happen,
and you don't necessarily need the app. Still, an issue.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...teners-n748311

You can see where a bunch of audio engineers would find value in knowing
what songs were actually being listened to so they can tailor the equipment
to play that music well. Still, an issue.

Lots of nerd rage at Hacker News:
http://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145



Anybody who buys Bose anything serves them right.

geoff
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 23/04/2017 2:28 PM, Trevor wrote:
..

I must have missed where ANYONE suggested otherwise?


I got the impression that your whole angle in this topic was to
trivialise the value of the input of the audiology profession.

geoff

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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 22/04/2017 4:54 AM, Johnny B Good wrote:

frequency. Continuous exposure to high SPLs accelerates this reduction in
the maximum frequency limit of hearing in each individual's case. It's
quite important to tailor a hearing aid's frequency response and gain so
as to avoid needlessly doing more harm than good.



I don't know enough about it to have an opinion other that the concept
of boost level at various frequencies could do immense more harm.

..... like if I'm 20dB down at 14kHz, boosting that 14kHz by 20dB would
seem more likely to destroy whatever was left around there real quick !

geoff
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 23/04/2017 2:09 PM, Trevor wrote:


What a load of crap, most hearing aids don't go past 8kHz. The damage is
already done by loud rock bands and perhaps using MP3 players at
excessive levels. Still I agree for people like yourself who are
apparently unable to do the job properly, better leave it to a
professional. I guess you have an audiologist adjust you HiFi volume and
TV volume control as well! :-)



If you adjust your hifi to your own hearing response, I'd hate to live
in the same house.

geoff



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Julian Macassey Julian Macassey is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:56:44 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 8:29 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,


I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.


Given that the operating system would have absolutely no bearing on the
quality of the software, the operation of it, or the results, why ?


Or must serious applications only be used by iDiots or Lidiots ?


Seeing your comment about Bose in this thread, and the
complaint about Bose phoning home, I wonder what you think about
Billyware phoning home? You know it does don't you.

That's the bearing on the quality of the OS.

HTH



--
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 24/04/2017 10:09 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:56:44 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 8:29 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,

I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.


Given that the operating system would have absolutely no bearing on the
quality of the software, the operation of it, or the results, why ?


Or must serious applications only be used by iDiots or Lidiots ?


Seeing your comment about Bose in this thread, and the
complaint about Bose phoning home, I wonder what you think about
Billyware phoning home? You know it does don't you.

That's the bearing on the quality of the OS.



]No. That's the bearing of OS-snob elitists who feel the need to attemp
tomake their own candle burn brighter by (attempting to) blowing out the
candles of others.

My reference to Bose was WRT their bull**** marketing and hype.

geoff

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Larry Sheldon Larry Sheldon is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 4/23/2017 04:02, geoff wrote:
On 23/04/2017 2:28 PM, Trevor wrote:
.

I must have missed where ANYONE suggested otherwise?


I got the impression that your whole angle in this topic was to
trivialise the value of the input of the audiology profession.


Well it might have been. Years ago I spent a fortune on a hearing aid
(to try and silence family members trained to taunt me about my vanity)
that did no good from day one, and did no good a bunch of (a thousand?)
dollars later. (My reports of feeling pressure in that ear did finally
trigger some defensive medicine but I decided to separate myself and
save everybody good money by not sending it after bad.)

Years later, in another panic medicine episode I stumbled and the
cardiologist went full panic, and that eventually led to a
claustrophobes nightmare (MRI) that disclosed a tumor
(schwasomething-or-other) that had destroyed, irrevocably, the nerve in
that ear. An that destruction had almost certainly occurred when the
materials in the hearing aid were still undisturbed in some bucolic
countryside somewhere.

--
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
-- Juvenal
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Julian Macassey Julian Macassey is offline
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:48:19 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 24/04/2017 10:09 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:56:44 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 8:29 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,

I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.

Given that the operating system would have absolutely no bearing on the
quality of the software, the operation of it, or the results, why ?


Or must serious applications only be used by iDiots or Lidiots ?


Seeing your comment about Bose in this thread, and the
complaint about Bose phoning home, I wonder what you think about
Billyware phoning home? You know it does don't you.

That's the bearing on the quality of the OS.



No. That's the bearing of OS-snob elitists who feel the need to attemp
tomake their own candle burn brighter by (attempting to) blowing out the
candles of others.

My reference to Bose was WRT their bull**** marketing and hype.


Yet the commebt was about their software phoning home.
Something that Billyware does. Something that does nothing to
improve the the working of the product, but is part of the
bull**** marketing and hype.


--
"Microsoft's just er... it's McDonald's, and that's what saddens me."
- Steve Jobs 1995 TV interview
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 23/04/2017 7:05 PM, geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 4:54 AM, Johnny B Good wrote:
frequency. Continuous exposure to high SPLs accelerates this reduction in
the maximum frequency limit of hearing in each individual's case. It's
quite important to tailor a hearing aid's frequency response and gain so
as to avoid needlessly doing more harm than good.


I don't know enough about it to have an opinion other that the concept
of boost level at various frequencies could do immense more harm.

.... like if I'm 20dB down at 14kHz, boosting that 14kHz by 20dB would
seem more likely to destroy whatever was left around there real quick !



Good luck finding a hearing aid with response to 14kHz let alone one
that allows you to boost that frequency by 20dB! Most audiograms and
most hearing aid adjustments stop at 8kHz.

Secondly if we are to take your statement literally then nobody should
wear ANY hearing aid for fear of damaging what is left of their hearing
at any frequency!

I'm surprised people bother to make these comments without knowing
anything about hearing aids.




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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 23/04/2017 7:07 PM, geoff wrote:
On 23/04/2017 2:09 PM, Trevor wrote:
What a load of crap, most hearing aids don't go past 8kHz. The damage is
already done by loud rock bands and perhaps using MP3 players at
excessive levels. Still I agree for people like yourself who are
apparently unable to do the job properly, better leave it to a
professional. I guess you have an audiologist adjust you HiFi volume and
TV volume control as well! :-)



If you adjust your hifi to your own hearing response, I'd hate to live
in the same house.


I'd hate you to live in my house too!!!
Reading does not seem to be your forte.

Trevor.


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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 24/04/2017 4:16 PM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:48:19 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 24/04/2017 10:09 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 20:56:44 +1200, geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 8:29 AM, Julian Macassey wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:12:31 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

Anyone with hearing loss would do well to continue with annual
hearing evaluations.

My audiologist uses some Windows based software to access
the hearing aids,

I'm sorry to hear that. Pity they couldn't have used a
less mediocre platform.

Given that the operating system would have absolutely no bearing on the
quality of the software, the operation of it, or the results, why ?


Or must serious applications only be used by iDiots or Lidiots ?

Seeing your comment about Bose in this thread, and the
complaint about Bose phoning home, I wonder what you think about
Billyware phoning home? You know it does don't you.

That's the bearing on the quality of the OS.



No. That's the bearing of OS-snob elitists who feel the need to attemp
tomake their own candle burn brighter by (attempting to) blowing out the
candles of others.

My reference to Bose was WRT their bull**** marketing and hype.


Yet the commebt was about their software phoning home.
Something that Billyware does. Something that does nothing to
improve the the working of the product, but is part of the
bull**** marketing and hype.


Fortunately many of those who actually use Windows know you can easily
stop this. Apple does far more objectionable things IMO, but neither is
in the same league as Google and Facebook, or our own governments for
that matter. :-(



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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

Once upon a time on usenet geoff wrote:
On 22/04/2017 1:15 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Trevor wrote:


government pension scheme give up, throw them in the draw and never
use them. I know a few like that, a complete waste of taxpayer money
to subsidise audiologists pension funds. :-(


What's a "draw"?


They raffle them off ?!!!


Heh, maybe. The OP seems far too busy listening to the sound of his own
typing to be bothered to check if it makes sense.

He sure *appears* to know a lot about aids. Google is great.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On 24/04/2017 7:45 PM, Trevor wrote:


Secondly if we are to take your statement literally then nobody should
wear ANY hearing aid for fear of damaging what is left of their hearing
at any frequency!

I'm surprised people bother to make these comments without knowing
anything about hearing aids.


And despite me making no claim to know anything about audiology , it
would still vastly surprise me that the simple remedy for a loss at a
particular band is solely to boost the **** out of that band. 14k, 8k,
3k, or whatever.

geoff
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Default [CM] Headphones - Hearing aids

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:58:03 +1000, Trevor wrote:
On 24/04/2017 4:16 PM, Julian Macassey wrote:

Yet the commebt was about their software phoning home.
Something that Billyware does. Something that does nothing to
improve the the working of the product, but is part of the
bull**** marketing and hype.


Fortunately many of those who actually use Windows know you can easily
stop this. Apple does far more objectionable things IMO, but neither is
in the same league as Google and Facebook, or our own governments for
that matter. :-(


Apple have much to answer for. A Windows adminisrator
recently told me that the latest version of Microsoft's OS can
not be prevented from phoning home if it has a net connection. I
assume that it could with an agressively programmed router.

As for Google and Facebook, their behaviour is an
excellent reason to avoid them - Even if you do think you have
nothing to hide. Governments have never been restrained by the
privacy laws they want other citizens and governments to follow.
`

--
"He is divisive. He is manipulative. He is a user. He has taken much from me
and the industry." Gary Kildall speaking of Bill Gates
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