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#41
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Facing subs towards driver or away
My tests today are 20Hz to 120Hz....!!
I see plenty of differences! http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Dont you see em Tom??? ha ha Eddie Runner Nousaine wrote: But Eddie and the woofer-direction folks aren't talking 90 Hz. But I'll agree that many people will interpret changes at 100-200 Hz as "Bass" effects. What is interesting is that with the woofer facing the listener it's quite likely that there will be significantly more low-midrange output. This can either be an advantage or a problem, depending. But the argument in this thread is that simply facing the woofer toward the rear of the car delivers more bass. It can only do that when you consider upper-bass and lower midrange(usually 80 hz and above) as the key elements. Depending on the intended woofer operating range this may or may not be important. But the general population seems to simply classify any change in sound as more/better "bass" when it's not. I think it's useful to break down these Urban Legends into component factors and focus on what's really happening acoustically. |
#42
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Facing subs towards driver or away
Followup!
http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Eddie Runner wrote: Tom Nousaine keeps insisting THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE! He has said if you do hear a BASS difference by turning the box around then you either changed something or you are halucinating. Every installer and so many kids that install thier own woofers know that turning the box to the rear of the car usually produces MORE BASS! Probaby MOST of the folks on here KNOW THIS ALREADY and have experienced it for themselves.... THE REASON! TOM on the other hand is stuck in a corner... Several years ago he wrote an article for Car Stereo Review that claimed the woofer box orientation is not important... !! And those fools at CSR published it! (ha ha) anyway, Toms professional credibility would be SHOT if he admitted to what so many of us know for a fact .... The reason he didnt hear or measure a difference (if you read the article) is because of the simple fact that his test car was a CORVETTE! (ha ha again) Butting a box in the hatch of a corvette, there isnt much room to move the box very far, so the effects I describe on my website would probably be non existant (to the ear)... In a normal car trunk, turning a big box around or moving it substancially can make a large noticable difference! In a tiny corevett that has to have a TINY box anyway, how far car it be moved??? ha ha .. not far enough for Tom to hear a difference! NO ****! So he based the laws of physics on his little crackerbox CORVETTE! Thats the problem as I see it! Thats why he wont admit what we can all hear... Good luck argueing with him, he will NEVER admit it or even try to have a resonable technical discussion about it.... Eddie Runner Luke Hague wrote: I guess my big question, which Eddie seems to be the only one who can answer, is why DOES it make a difference when you turn the box around? and when I mean turn the box around, I DON'T mean change anything else. "Nousaine" wrote in message ... |
#44
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THE PROOF IS IN! Facing subs towards driver or away
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#45
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Facing subs towards driver or away
I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back)
in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... I would say thats a good thing Paul... Did you just scoot the box around or did you actually try flipping it over so the woofers aim at the back of the car? And then compare that bass to the woofers aimed UP at the rear deck or to the front of the car.. Eddie Paul Vina wrote: I can move the S12L5 in my wife's car ('95 Jetta) all over the trunk and it sounds exactly the same no matter where I put it. If I run it full range the lower midrange is louder but the bass sounds the same. Paul Vina |
#46
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Facing subs towards driver or away
That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip.
Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER! http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html ha ha Eddie Runner Nousaine wrote: Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes. Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first result. |
#47
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Facing subs towards driver or away
"Paul Vina" wrote in message newsayzb.416520$Fm2.424726@attbi_s04... That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip. Paul Vina looks to me like all they used was the sub. Hence him typing "the car was not running and the stereo not turned on" narcolept ------- course, I've been known to not pay attention before. "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER! http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html ha ha Eddie Runner Nousaine wrote: Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes. Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first result. |
#48
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Facing subs towards driver or away
Just checking. I also noticed that when the sub was rear facing it was
*very* close to the trunk wall or hatch of the vehicle. The difference could have been a boundary loading effect. Eddie, Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with? Paul Vina "narcolept" wrote in message t... "Paul Vina" wrote in message newsayzb.416520$Fm2.424726@attbi_s04... That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip. Paul Vina looks to me like all they used was the sub. Hence him typing "the car was not running and the stereo not turned on" narcolept ------- course, I've been known to not pay attention before. "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... On this test I just performes we could not have hooked it up out of polarity cause there is JUST ONE WOOFER! http://installer.com/tech/aiming2.html ha ha Eddie Runner Nousaine wrote: Usually this type of reported experience comes with other related changes. Often hooking up a pair of woofers out-of-polarity will produce the first result. |
#49
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Facing subs towards driver or away
THERE ARE NO MIDS Paul!
This one woofer is the ONLY speaker playing! Oh, didnt you say you had a VW? I am tesing a Jetta and a BUG with the same setup today, (if Im not too busy) I will post the results. Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Paul Vina wrote: That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip. Paul Vina |
#50
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Paul, last night I did two cars, I did alot more tests even with the woofer aiming straight up in the air and side ways with nothing close to the cone and the results blend right in right where I would expect it to... I think the pictures make the woofer box look like it is practicly touching the back of the seat but it isnt, there are several inches of space in there... And the woofer is just about as close to the rear when the trunk lid is closed!! Remember the WHOLE POINT OF THIS is to prove Tom Noisaine is wrong when he tells the kids (and us) that moving a woofer box around cannot possibly make any difference to the bass... Its plain to see it DOES make a difference! I think Tom also tried to say that opening a door on the car wont make a difference... We did a test with the woofer box aiming UP in the tahoe and then did the sweep again with the passenger door open... Pretty much the whole curve had more bass with the door open but the big difference was a suprising SIX db at 20Hz..!! Yes 20Hz!! I may have time to format the pictures and make a web page on the door open tests later today... Im also hoping to do some tests on some different cars later today as well. I guess Tom is too embarassed to post about it...ha ha Maybe he is making his own sweeps with his PAINT PROGRAM! ha ha (note, I have lots of pictures and witnesses listed in my tests!! so far Toms tests are just hearsay)... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Paul Vina wrote: Eddie, Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with? Paul Vina |
#51
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Facing subs towards driver or away
maybe your just not hearing a difference...
Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today.... (we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger and there were tiny differences only).... You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of us heard that... ha ha Eddie Paul Vina wrote: I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back) in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk. Paul Vina |
#52
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Facing subs towards driver or away
I have my crossover set at 80Hz witha 24dB/octave slope so maybe there is an
upper bass change I'm not hearing. But if there is a difference in the upper bass it won't matter since my sub isn't playing that freq. so maving the sub didn't matter in my case. If someone had a higher cutoff maybe it will make a difference. Post those Jetta results. I'd like to see how it comes out. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... maybe your just not hearing a difference... Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today.... (we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger and there were tiny differences only).... You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of us heard that... ha ha Eddie Paul Vina wrote: I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back) in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk. Paul Vina |
#53
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Here we go again!
People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result. I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate. Paul Vina |
#54
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Facing subs towards driver or away
I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a '95.
Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... THERE ARE NO MIDS Paul! This one woofer is the ONLY speaker playing! Oh, didnt you say you had a VW? I am tesing a Jetta and a BUG with the same setup today, (if Im not too busy) I will post the results. Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Paul Vina wrote: That one sub could be out of phase with the mids and cause a midbass dip. Paul Vina |
#55
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Paul,
Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact! CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly (compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer! IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!! Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya! Paul Vina wrote: Here we go again! People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result. I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate. Paul Vina |
#56
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Facing subs towards driver or away
its a 96 Jetta, results of the jetta are now on the page.
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html I also did DOOR OPEN and TRUNK OPEN sweeps with the Jetta and published those results as well. Bring your car by and we will do yours! ;-) Eddie Runner Paul Vina wrote: I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a '95. Paul Vina |
#57
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Jetta results now posted Facing subs towards driver or away
Jetta results are now posted!
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Paul Vina wrote: I have my crossover set at 80Hz witha 24dB/octave slope so maybe there is an upper bass change I'm not hearing. But if there is a difference in the upper bass it won't matter since my sub isn't playing that freq. so maving the sub didn't matter in my case. If someone had a higher cutoff maybe it will make a difference. Post those Jetta results. I'd like to see how it comes out. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... maybe your just not hearing a difference... Its obvious that SOME things (response wise) are changing when you turn the box... I will be doing a Jettta later today.... (we even did a test with no one in the car VS one passenger and there were tiny differences only).... You may not hear any differences, thats OK, someone told me a tree fell down in the forest last week and I doubt either one of us heard that... ha ha Eddie Paul Vina wrote: I've faced it in all 5 practical positions (up, left, right, front and back) in 5 locations (all 4 corners and the middle) in the trunk. Paul Vina |
#58
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Eddie Runner wrote:
Here we go again! People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Paul, last night I did two cars, I did alot more tests even with the woofer aiming straight up in the air and side ways with nothing close to the cone and the results blend right in right where I would expect it to... I think the pictures make the woofer box look like it is practicly touching the back of the seat but it isnt, there are several inches of space in there... And the woofer is just about as close to the rear when the trunk lid is closed!! Remember the WHOLE POINT OF THIS is to prove Tom Noisaine is wrong when he tells the kids (and us) that moving a woofer box around cannot possibly make any difference to the bass... Its plain to see it DOES make a difference! As your graphs clearly point out the significant changes they do make occur above 80 Hz. As I've pointed out before. One other interesting point that shouldn't slip away here is that your "diagram" says that there are "standing wave" effects that occur at 60 Hz in your example. Indeed these results clearly show that below 80 Hz in this car there are no standing wave cancellations or frequency dependent effects of any kind. I think Tom also tried to say that opening a door on the car wont make a difference... We did a test with the woofer box aiming UP in the tahoe and then did the sweep again with the passenger door open... Pretty much the whole curve had more bass with the door open but the big difference was a suprising SIX db at 20Hz..!! Yes 20Hz!! I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. I may have time to format the pictures and make a web page on the door open tests later today... Im also hoping to do some tests on some different cars later today as well. I guess Tom is too embarassed to post about it...ha ha Maybe he is making his own sweeps with his PAINT PROGRAM! ha ha (note, I have lots of pictures and witnesses listed in my tests!! so far Toms tests are just hearsay)... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html I've shared that data with interested parties. By the way, my past work confirms Vina's experience. Moving an enclosure around in the trunk of a small car doesn't change the bass (60 hz and downward) inside the cabin. Paul Vina wrote: Eddie, Do youguys have a smaller enclosure laying around you could try it with? Paul Vina |
#59
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Wow, I would have thought the bug would have made a bigger difference that
the other cars. Your graphs on the Jetta confirmed my suspicions about my wife's car. If the cutoff was higher it'd make a much bigger difference. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... Paul, Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact! CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly (compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer! IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!! Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya! Paul Vina wrote: Here we go again! People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result. I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate. Paul Vina |
#60
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in
the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. HUH???? The Jetta graph shows a LOT more output above 50Hz with the trunk open. Paul Vina |
#61
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Facing subs towards driver or away
I'm not driving to Texas from N. CA for a test but if I'm ever in the area
I'm definitely going to drop by. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... its a 96 Jetta, results of the jetta are now on the page. http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html I also did DOOR OPEN and TRUNK OPEN sweeps with the Jetta and published those results as well. Bring your car by and we will do yours! ;-) Eddie Runner Paul Vina wrote: I missed that part. My bad. Whatyear is the Jetta? My wife's is a '95. Paul Vina |
#62
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
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#63
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
What about at 50Hz? There's a pretty big gain there too.
Paul Vina "Nousaine" wrote in message ... "Paul Vina" wrote: I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. HUH???? The Jetta graph shows a LOT more output above 50Hz with the trunk open. Look carefully. It just shows that 'bass' in the cabin is significantly reduced. Sure there is more 100 Hz; but is that really "bass"? It is upper bass but really 100 Hz is pretty easy to come by in a car don't you think? |
#64
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Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
maybe the bugs round shape prevents such sharp reflections
that cancel.. I mean none of the panels are parallel to any others so the standing wave cancelation is much less than if we have straight walls like alot of cars... It kind of confirms my original theory I think.... But even still, in EVERY CAR at nearly EVERY FREQUENCY in the sweeps, the box aiming backward was LOUDER than the box aiming forward... And dont forget Our buddy Tom Nouisaine has always said IT WONT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!!! ha ha ha I guess he is sucking hind tit now.... ha ha ha Eddie Runner ps, dont believe what you read in the stereo magazines, Tom mighta wrote it! ha ha ha Paul Vina wrote: Wow, I would have thought the bug would have made a bigger difference that the other cars. Your graphs on the Jetta confirmed my suspicions about my wife's car. If the cutoff was higher it'd make a much bigger difference. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... Paul, Boundys OBVIOUSLY affect soundwaves... Thats a fact! CARS have boundries ON ALL SIDES that are reletivly (compared to bass wavelengths) close and WILL affect the sounds to some extent no matter WHERE you put a woofer! IN FACT, boundys and the relationship to the woofer is EXACTLY what this whole discussion is about!!!!!!!! Are you finally starting to see??? Haleluya! Paul Vina wrote: Here we go again! People dont like the results of a test so they ALWAYS ask to change the tests in the hope that the outcome comes out THEIR WAY! Tha's not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if that might have skewed the results. I know it's impossible to control every aspect of the tests, but if we can eliminate something that's known to increase bass output, like boudary or corner loading, it will give a truer result. I have no problems with the results. I've seen some cars that change a lot and some that don't. Call me the devil's advocate. Paul Vina |
#65
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Toms changing his story now! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Nousaine wrote:
One other interesting point that shouldn't slip away here is that your "diagram" says that there are "standing wave" effects that occur at 60 Hz in your example. Indeed these results clearly show that below 80 Hz in this car there are no standing wave cancellations or frequency dependent effects of any kind. Bull****! ON ALL THE GRAPHS, http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html at nearly every frequency, the box aimed to the rear is louder!! Now your using the word "SIGNIFICANT" so you can say, its just a few Db, and to you its not significant! ha ha ha... Read back on your old posts TOMMY BOY, you have said MANY times that it wont make any difference at all... Now your changing your story to say it aint much change.... ha ha To alot of folks a few Db is A BUNCH! Hell Tom, when you DOUBLE YOUR AMP POWER and get 3dB!! Turning your box around backward may get you MORE than that with no cost!!! And your trying to say its insignificant!! ha ha ha LOOSER! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
#66
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Tom LIES like a snake Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Nousaine wrote:
I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. Are you ****ING BLIND???? At 50Hz the trunk open gives you about 3dB!!! At 60Hz the trunk open gives you about 6 or 7dB!!! How can you tell these lies???? The chart does not lie! http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Eddie Runner |
#67
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TOM WAFFLES about aiming ! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Nousaine wrote:
By the way, my past work confirms Vina's experience. Moving an enclosure around in the trunk of a small car doesn't change the bass (60 hz and downward) inside the cabin. Tom, your waffling here like a ****ty politician!!! You have always said it doesnt make any difference no matter how big the car, remember I was always saying your Corvette was small and thet was why you couldnt see the difference the rest of us can hear in a normal sized car... Now your finally seeing my point and your trying to change your story so you look like you have been saying it that way all along.... And here is a small quote from you last week that proves it Tom Wrote: Because acoustic sounds at subwoofer frequencies (approximately 100 Hz) are omnidirectional the SPL/Frequency response will be uneffected either way. Now look at the charts http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html and the HUGE, I mean HUGE cancelation at 100Hz on some of the cars!!! Do you see it??? Its about 27dB on the NEON !!!!!!!!! TOM! Thats like changing from a 100watt amp to a 51200 watt amp!!! In the past you said there is no difference in turning the box around Now your saying there is no sifnificant difference... COME ON TOM!! 27dB is pretty ****in significant!!! The Tahoe has about a 4dB difference at 100Hz thats also pretty significant... The Jetta has about a 28 or 29dB difference at 100Hz! Holly ****!! And even the Bug has a good 5dB diffference at 95Hz... Now Tom, kids have been telling you on this thread that they hear a difference when they turn thier box to the back of the car, you have always told them it is IMPOSSIBLE! They must be mistaking the midrange.. Or the other day you told a guy he must have had his speakers out of phase !! (remember that?) NOW, this graph proves there are HUGE differences!! ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG!!! (we will respect you more if you admit you learned something) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
#68
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Your right Paul! Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Paul,
Tom doesnt want to admit what we all see in the graph. He has been tellingus for years that there is not and cannot possibly be any difference at all if we reposition our woofer box. Do you expect him to come clean??? ha ha ha Paul Vina wrote: I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. HUH???? The Jetta graph shows a LOT more output above 50Hz with the trunk open. Paul Vina |
#69
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Come on Down! Facing subs towards driver or away
I wish you would...
This damn LMS stuff cost me a fortune, I would love it if I could use it more than we do now... I bought it years ago and had the DOS program which really sucked...We didnt use it very often and when we did I always had trouble remembering how to configure the machine when changing from SPL sweeps to speaker impedence measurements (it does that real well also) The other day I went ahead and bought the NEW windows version of the software and did some substancial upgrades on the computer with the LMS card in it ... Now it works easy as PIE! Wish I had more stuff to measure... ha ha ha Eddie Runner I guess it was worth it to make Tom eat his words and learn something.... Paul Vina wrote: I'm not driving to Texas from N. CA for a test but if I'm ever in the area I'm definitely going to drop by. Paul Vina |
#70
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Tom LIES like a snake Actual tests - aiming woofer boxes
Eddie Runner wrote:
Nousaine wrote: I said that opening the hatch or trunk on a car doesn't increase bass in the car. Your data clearly shows that as well. Are you ****ING BLIND???? At 50Hz the trunk open gives you about 3dB!!! At 60Hz the trunk open gives you about 6 or 7dB!!! How can you tell these lies???? The chart does not lie! http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html Eddie Runner Eddie I've done all these experiments before. I find it quite interesting that in your web-site you 'explain' all this as related to standing waves. If that were true than we wouldn't have the condition in many of your graphs that simply looks like a level differences (curve shifted up at all frequencies relatively equally) the differences would be frequency dependent. IOW we can't have identical standing wave cancellation patterns at all frequencies because the wavelengths are not equal and couldn't have the same cancellation effect. Now let's clear up a few mistaken comments about what I've said. In a small space like a car (or a room) below the lowest modal frequency the driver just pressurizes the interior space and the location of the source isn't a factor. This is because the wavelengths involved are so long that standing waves won't form. In a 12 x 22 foot room that frequency is 26 Hz. In my Corvette (although a 2-seater, the 25-cubic feet hatch area gives it roughly the same interior space as other vehilces such as an Acura Integra, Dodge Spirit, Camaro, etc) this frequency is 60 Hz. In a smaller car (CRX) it's somewhat higher. In a significantl larger car (minivan, some SUVS) it's lower. In a full size van it may be 45 Hz. Below those frequencies subwoofer placement is irrelevant. I've also duplicated you "cartoon" diagram and things do not work as you claim. There's no 60 Hz cancellation at 3-feet. There's no difference in response below 60 Hz and the main difference between the woofer facing the wall and facing the microphone 3-feet from the wall is more midrange. I'm glad you are finally doing some real measurements. When you get around to it, why not stop making this stuff up? You may learn something. Such as the loss of low frequency cabin gain in the graph with the trunk open greatly decreasing low frequencies inside the car. The lack of modal effects below about 100 Hz with all closed door measurements. The way to match levels properly to get data that can be anayzed. To average results. To watch for contaminating environmental effects at very low frequencies. Keep it up. Why not expand your measurment bandwidth so you can see real standing wave effects? |
#71
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Measuring audio bandwidth
Nousaine wrote:
. Why not expand your measurment bandwidth so you can see real standing wave effects? I intentionally cut the osscilator off at 120Hz for these tests because alot of folks were specificly talking about BASS below the normal xover frequncy. I thought 120 was a fair average, some do it higher and some do it lower. I didnt want to muddy up the facts with irrelevant facts... What I mean is, if I had used higher frequencies it would give you something to YAK about to help hide the fact that you were so wrong about repositioning the box in a car. You have always said it makes no difference which way the woofer box is oriented but now we all know you are wrong... When we move on into the subject of higher frequencies I will share some graphs that show higher standing waves and the comb effects. Tom, I dont know why you are acting like I am new to this..?? I have been taking measurements like this from cars for over 20 years, (and the RF spectrum for 30 years) in the early days audio with a meter and plotting a limited number of points into a computer by hand so the computer could draw the graph for storage. Not long after with RTAs and eventually with the LMS system originally with thier DOS program but upgraded to the new windows version just the other day... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html |
#72
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He has done it all before! NOT!! ha ha
Nousaine wrote:
Eddie I've done all these experiments before. Oh??????????? So why have you always insisted that woofer box orientation makes no difference at all?? If you have already done these tests and know damn well that it does make a difference?? I have been saving your old posts for over a year now Tom with the expectation in me eventually publishing these tests on the web site to prove all your bull**** wrong... Shall I start quoting you, or will you simply admit that moving a woofer box around in a car or more precisely, turning a woofer box to the rear can actaully make a great deal of difference in the bass in the car...?? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
#73
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Tom Accuses Eddie of Lieing about the tests!!
Nousaine wrote:
I find it quite interesting that in your web-site you 'explain' all this as related to standing waves. If that were true than we wouldn't have the condition in many of your graphs that simply looks like a level differences (curve shifted up at all frequencies relatively equally) the differences would be frequency dependent. IOW we can't have identical standing wave cancellation patterns at all frequencies because the wavelengths are not equal and couldn't have the same cancellation effect. Tom, the way I read that is that you are accusing me of changing the levels of the output to the speakers..... I have witnesses that were here when we did the tests, the only change was the orientation of the box and the changing of the trace color in the program... The sweeps are EXACTLY the same output levels to the amp and the amp was NOT touched at all! I thought you had said you did all these tests before and your results were just like mine....???? Now your saying something different and accusing me of lieing about the settings in my tests....!!! Come on down lemme show you how this stuff works... And I mean ANYONE! If your in the Houston area, or going to be passing through lemme know and I can demonstrate these tests to you!! Or you can contact the witnesses (listed in the tests) by phone or email if you wish... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ I know Tom would resort to LOW BLOWS..... |
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Pressure field
Nousaine wrote:
Now let's clear up a few mistaken comments about what I've said. In a small space like a car (or a room) below the lowest modal frequency the driver just pressurizes the interior space and the location of the source isn't a factor. This is because the wavelengths involved are so long that standing waves won't form. In a 12 x 22 foot room that frequency is 26 Hz. Its not that they WONT form, the wave still propogates the listening area there are UPS and DOWNS to the sine waves... The difference and definition of the pressure wave is that reletivly ALL of the listeing area is a positive pressure or negative pressure at once because the wave is so long... Now to find out what size space can be subject to a pressure wave the whole place must be about the same pressure, so for a 18 ft long wave (about 60Hz) and 18 ft space would NOT be a pressure wave! Because of the simple fact that there is a whole wave in there at any time, the UP and the DOWN of the sine wave (360degrees). Lets change the space to 1/2 the size, a 9 ft space... Still it cannot be a pressure field because there is 180 degees of change in the space.. Still not relativly all the same pressre is it??? Nope.... Now lets cut it in half again Tom... 4.5ft.... Much smaller than most cars I think.... And still we have 90 degrees of phase shift.... Even at this point I would have a hard time calling it a pressure field.... Cut it in half again and its about 2ft.... Were sure getting close to a pressure field now, but I dont know anyone with a 2ft car interior.. And we still have 45 degrees of the wave in the car... so is it really a pressure field??? At this point it could be argues for or against about equally (IMO).... Cut it in half again and at about 1ft and only 1/16th of a wavelength I might agree with you now.... Still 22.5 degrees of phase difference between one end of the space and the other though... Still not a perfect pressure field is it?? Now to your 26Hz you mentioned above... Were talking about Car Stereo TOM... My paper that talks about standing waves in a car is writen and referenced to 60Hz. Certainly the pressure wave of a 26Hz wave would be much larger than a 60 Hz pressure wave... It could happen in a larger space at that frequency.... Lets run through it anyway 50ft = 360 degrees 25ft = 180 degrees 12ft = 90 degrees 6ft = 45 degrees 3ft = 22 degrees Which one of those is a true pressure wave??? Finally Tom wants to talk Tech.... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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CANCELLATION at 60Hz and standing wave facts....
Nousaine wrote:
There's no 60 Hz cancellation at 3-feet. Tom.... Lets pretend were in an open field There is a woofer in a box thats playing a 60Hz tone and its about 5 ft from us. There is another woofer 9 ft beyond the first woofer that we can turn on and off the second woofer plays the exact tone from the same amp as the first woofer. Now when we turn the second woofer on, so it plays along with the first woofer are we going to hear MORE 60Hz sound or less sound??? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????? Come on Tom.. This example makes it easy.... The second wave travels 9ft before it gets to the first wave now both waves are coming at you together! At 60hz this will put the two waves aprox 180degrees out of phase with each other.... So the resulting sound to your listening position is reduced with the second speaker playing.... Im sure your with me so far TOM.... ------------------------------------ NOW! The sound from the first woofer goes in all directions, so it not only comes at you it goes in all directions. it did in the first example but because we were in an open field the sound just went off and was eventually lost, with the exception of the sound that came directly to us. Lets loose the second speaker and instead build a wall at 1/2 the distance about 4.5 ft behind the first woofer.... Some sound that goes out of the first woofer comes to us and some hits the wall and bounces to us.... That *bounced sound* has traveled the same 9 ft (to the wall (4.5 and back (another 4.5)) and will be just like the sound from the second woofer thats not there anymore.... ;-) Now are you getting it Tom?? The bounced wave, is 180 degrees out of phase with the first wave so the sound WITH THE WALL will be less sound that WITHOUT THE WALL.... This is (even though you dont believe me) a standing wave.! I dont know how you can miss this Tom... Maybe you want to ignore it or something because you dont want to appear to be WRONG in all your previous statements.... BTW, the wall would have to be further away at lower frrequencies and closer for higher frquencies..... About 14ft at 20Hz about 2 ft at 120 Hz SO the range of my sweeps cover standing wave cancelation from 2ft and longer.. ;-) Get it now TOM?? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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Tom is feeling bad about being wrong so now he is makingup stuff to getthe heat off...
Nousaine wrote:
I'm glad you are finally doing some real measurements. When you get around to it, why not stop making this stuff up? You may learn something. I cant believe your saying that.... Im not the one making stuff up, these tests were legit! Now your the one that has shown NO scientific proof.... Remember when I scanned the Banecek book to prove you wrong? You still havent given us ANYTHING!! NOTTA!! butyou have the nuts to tell me to stop making stuff up... ha ha ha |
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Measuring audio bandwidth
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He has done it all before! NOT!! ha ha
Eddie Runner wrote:
Mr Strawman bellows: Nousaine wrote: Eddie I've done all these experiments before. Oh??????????? So why have you always insisted that woofer box orientation makes no difference at all?? I never have. It just doesn't make any difference below the lowest modal frequency in any enclosed space. If you have already done these tests and know damn well that it does make a difference?? Sure I do. I just know where the effects will occur. I have been saving your old posts for over a year now Tom with the expectation in me eventually publishing these tests on the web site to prove all your bull**** wrong... Shall I start quoting you, Which, of course, you have not done in spite of all your bluster. Please quote me but also avoid your out-of-context and strawman interpretations. or will you simply admit that moving a woofer box around in a car or more precisely, turning a woofer box to the rear can actaully make a great deal of difference in the bass in the car...?? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ Only in the standing wave range. |
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Measuring audio bandwidth
Nousaine wrote:
Now you know that whatever effects that exist below 100 Hz will still be visible. don't you? Now I know????? (I have always known that) Are you trying to turn this moment where I proved what I have been telling you for over a year is right into something that makes it look like YOU TAUGHT ME SOMETHING!!!???? HA HA HA!!! Your the one that said turning a woofer box to the rear can make NO DIFFERENCE!! ALot of folks tried to tell you it did but you kept right on saying IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE!! You went so far as to tell them they must be hooking thier woofers up out of phase when they turned them around..... Now that I have published the results of some sweeps I made you have the gall to act like YOU TAUGHT ME SOMETHING!! HA HA HA Face the facts! Dont try to claim they were your facts all along! I have captures of your messages (as does GOOGLE) for well over a year.... You CHUMP! |
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Measuring audio bandwidth
Nousaine wrote:
I've said it makes no difference below the lowest modal frequency in the cabin. You conveniently forget to include that part. You have also said it wont matter below 100HZ. You have also said it wont matter in car woofers if they are crossed over. And my sweeps show a difference in most of the swweps all the way down to 20Hz! You said it wont happen! My charts show it happens at pretty much ALL tested frequencies! Why do you ignore the sweeps??? (click on them for a larger view if you need it) Eddie Runner |
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