I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I see what
people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

Well...true. But no 16 year guy is watching her for her voice either.
I think the singing on the CD is the 3 people in Matrix, with her
overlayed. There are many parts in the tracks where you can distinctly
hear her voice change timbre. At least to me it smells of Milli
Vanilliness.



Analogeezer wrote:

I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

--
Regards,
Nate West

Catapultam habeo.
Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis,
ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

(Analogeezer) wrote in message om...
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I see what
people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

yeah, but you can let that slide since she's such a tremendous writing
talent though, right?

ha!

of course, the joke's on me: her team of producers write all those
incredibly bad lyrics!

Analogeezer wrote:

I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.


You aren't kidding. And hypocritical as well. When she arrived on the
scene she was billed as the anti-Brittney, anti-corporate packaged
music. What a crock. And then her interviews of how she "writes" her songs.

When I first heard/saw her, and in the occasional snippets I have
witnessed since, I could just not get over how amaturish this "band"
was. What has the music business become? Very sad.

-Rob

When I first heard/saw her, and in the occasional snippets I have
witnessed since, I could just not get over how amaturish this "band"
was. What has the music business become? Very sad.

Yep young teen idols being less than stellar live is such a new thing.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

EggHd wrote:

When I first heard/saw her, and in the occasional snippets I have
witnessed since, I could just not get over how amaturish this "band"
was. What has the music business become? Very sad.

Yep young teen idols being less than stellar live is such a new thing.


Well, there is bad, and then there is BAD!

Hey, it's a really good record. So there is real talent involved.
Just doesn't happen to be the singer....as usual.

Regards,
Brian T


Fletcher wrote:

Analogeezer wrote:



I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.




My 9 yr. old really likes the record... but saw one of her TV
performances... looked at me and asked why it didn't sound as good as
the record. Seeing as the kid has been around a bazillion recording
sessions I asked her if she remembered how long it took us to record a
lead vocal... she said "yes"... I then explained that it probably took
Ms. Lavigne significantly longer.

She seemed to get it. Still listens to the record all the time but
doesn't seem to be in a big hurry to break my balls about getting her
tickets.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

Well, there is bad, and then there is BAD!

I didn't see the show. When she was on an MTV awards show she was OK. Not
great but as good as many young acts of the past.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

We were supposed to LISTEN to her SING?

....Paul

************************************************** ********
"In the analog realm, it ain't "OVER" 'til it's over."


"Analogeezer" wrote in message
m...
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I see what
people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

(EggHd) wrote in message ...
When I first heard/saw her, and in the occasional snippets I have
witnessed since, I could just not get over how amaturish this "band"
was. What has the music business become? Very sad.

Yep young teen idols being less than stellar live is such a new thing.
Remember it's the "music business", especially these days, and not always music. I wouldnt have the faintest clue why kids are into some of the music they listen to...much like my parents didn't get Led Zep, Bad Co, Nugent, Mountain, James Brown...
Avril's kinda cute...a spinner
K


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

"Analogeezer" wrote in message
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I saw that last night and yes, it was awful. Both songs, especially
Complicated was very bad. Complicated sounded weak, like it was missing
something. Probably because the studio version was so overdubbed that any
live performance (without backing tracks) would sound incomplete. The live
version was also missing Autotune obviously.

I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night, and
I thought she sounded great, and couldn't hear a bit of auto-tune going on.
And I really enjoy the hell out of her CD. The CD has a small video
documentary on it, in which she sings on the street, with no PA and only a
camcorder mic picking her up, with obviously no processing in post, and she
sounds amazing. And I believe she's only going to get better, as long as
the morons in the industry to drive her into the ground.

--
Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
Talking Dog Transducer Company
http://stephensank.com
5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
505-332-0336
Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
Payments preferred through Paypal.com
"Analogeezer" wrote in message
m...
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I see what
people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

Stephen Sank wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night, and
I thought she sounded great, and couldn't hear a bit of auto-tune going on.

Yeah, if you're talking about the 7/5/03 re-run w/ Jeff Gordon as host, I'm
with Stephen he I watched her 1st tune expecting pure ****, and while I got
exactly that in terms of songwriting, I did find myself thinking "Huh, maybe
she *can* sing." Any singer that can pull off that Grace Slick War Cry like
Avril did at the end of that 1st 6/8 borefest has got better-thatn-average
pipes; you can't AutoTune that kind of lung power.


And I really enjoy the hell out of her CD.

Oh. Well, here Stephen & I disagree!

/Bob Ross

If you mean the SNL show from last night, I didn't think it
was that bad, but I admit I caught only one of her songs.
I do think she looks a bit less over-produced than some
others. I especially like the way she more-or-less just
stands there and sings without a lot of dancing around and
grimacing in an attempt to evoke some type of emotion.
Let the music do the work.

"Analogeezer" wrote in message m...
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm
neither, but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I
see what people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

I saw her on the Grammies and thought it was really bad performance but most
of the acts sounded pretty bad on the show. I haven't bought her album yet
but when I hear her song 'I'm With You' on the radio I really enjoy it and
want to get the album.

Another new comer who is quite good is Stacie Orrico. I'm a little biased
since she is the niece of one of my best friends but she really can sing
quite well without 'assistance'. Her albums are very 'produced' though.
She was only 14 I think when her first album ( Genuine ) came out and her
second album ( Stacie Orrico ) is out now and she's still only 16 or 17.

Some samples here for the curious :
http://www.stacieorrico.com/music.html

John L Rice


"Stephen Sank" wrote in message
...
I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night,
and
I thought she sounded great, and couldn't hear a bit of auto-tune going
on.
And I really enjoy the hell out of her CD. The CD has a small video
documentary on it, in which she sings on the street, with no PA and only a
camcorder mic picking her up, with obviously no processing in post, and
she
sounds amazing. And I believe she's only going to get better, as long as
the morons in the industry to drive her into the ground.

--
Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
Talking Dog Transducer Company
http://stephensank.com
5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
505-332-0336
Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
Payments preferred through Paypal.com
"Analogeezer" wrote in message
m...
I caught an old Saturday night live (this season) with Avril Lavigne
as the musical guest....ouch it was painful to watch/hear.

I'm not being catty because she is young and famous and I'm neither,
but man that girl cannot sing worth a ****.

I remember some AV "autotune" threads a while back, now I see what
people were talking about.

I don't think this was a matter of having a bad night, it was like
literally every note was bad...ouch.

Analogeezer

Consistant with Any well-couched 17 yr old. But it would be nice to
choose one that could actually sing..

The public chose to buy Avril. never forget that.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

EggHd wrote:
Consistant with Any well-couched 17 yr old. But it would be nice to
choose one that could actually sing..

The public chose to buy Avril. never forget that.

The tyranny of the masses!



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

EggHd wrote:


The public chose to buy Avril. never forget that.

But the topic is Avril can't sing. Doesn't mean her music can't be sold
anyway. There is no accounting for taste.

(EggHd) wrote in message ...
Consistant with Any well-couched 17 yr old. But it would be nice to
choose one that could actually sing..

The public chose to buy Avril. never forget that.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"


Actually as far as girl fronted bands go, I really like The
Donnas...their SNL pretty much kicked ass I thought. I couldn't
believe how hard that tiny girl was hitting the drums...made the
drummers for the Go Gos and The Bangles look like pussies...

Analogeezer

"Stephen Sank" wrote in message...
I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night,
and
I thought she sounded great, and couldn't hear a bit of auto-tune going
on.

I didn't hear any Autotune either. That was the problem. Maybe she was on
pitch and the rest of the band was off.

"Henry C-G" wrote in message news:bea6c0
"L David Matheny" wrote in message
I especially like the way she more-or-less just
stands there and sings without a lot of dancing around and
grimacing in an attempt to evoke some type of emotion.
Let the music do the work.

Hmmmm. Did you see her on the Grammy's? As I remember, she was jumping
all
over the place,

I did. She sounded bad there too. And yes, she was jumping around like she
was on a pogo stick, very stiff and abnormal.

"Henry C-G" wrote in message ...
"L David Matheny" wrote in message
...

snip

I especially like the way she more-or-less just
stands there and sings without a lot of dancing around and
grimacing in an attempt to evoke some type of emotion.
Let the music do the work.

Hmmmm. Did you see her on the Grammy's? As I remember, she was jumping all
over the place,

-Henry C-G

well when you're attempting to imitate the whole punk rock thing,
running around wildly is kinda par for the course.

hehe.. someone shoot her.

-tony

paul (no
Ok I didn't see the show and am not a fan, but to play devils advocate, I
will say that having loads of performances under my belt, I know that there are
times when there are technical problems especially on live TV when the monitor
is not functioning optimally and you can't hear yourself or the instrument your
trying to tune to.

That's what I was thinking - and quite a few singers have sounded quite
bad on Saturday Night Live. It is a *Special Gift* I think to sing on pitch
when the stage volume is overbearing, when you can't hear your own voice well.
Closing off one ear so you can hear your voice inside your head is a good trick
though. It is also difficult to sing on pitch if someone in the band is out of
tune and you are somewhat inexperienced.

Anyway a lot of young musicians expect the monitor mixer to make the band
blend on stage - that really doesn't work IMHO. Musicians have to learn to
listen to each other, it can't just be "parallel play" up there on stage. I
had Steel Pulse for musical guests July 3rd and Marshall Tucker for musical
guests on July 4th, 2 monitor mixes that's it and I think sometimes _not_
having 6 mixes on stage actually helps bands play together. Steel Pulse, they
always listen to each other but I was bit worried about Marshall Tucker, I was
having a hard time making them sound like a unit during rehearsal. But when we
hit air something kicked in and they sounded pretty good, they were listening
to and feeling each other like the veteran performers they are.

Anyway what really bugs me when a singer stands in front of people and is
only thinking about their own career and who they have to be better than rather
than thinking about their audience and what they are trying to get across
emotionally. If I "feel it" I can overlook a lot of missed notes, and often
if the singer "feels it" they sing a whole lot better as well...


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Fox And Friends/Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

That's what I was thinking - and quite a few singers have sounded quite
bad on Saturday Night Live.

I saw her recently on GMA or some morning show. Sounded about the same,
unfortunately.

-Rob

Actually as far as girl fronted bands go, I really like The
Donnas...

The recent record on Atlantic is pretty cool.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

"paul (no spam)" wrote in message
Ok I didn't see the show and am not a fan, but to play devils
advocate, I will say that having loads of performances under my belt,
I know that there are times when there are technical problems
especially on live TV when the monitor is not functioning optimally
and you can't hear yourself or the instrument your trying to tune to.

She sucked at the Grammy's too. We (either here or on AAPLS) had a big
discussion then about how she sucks and she still does. It was mentioned in
the earlier thread that her IEM feed was probably messed up at the Grammy's
because everyone wearing them sang off pitch. It seems like she was using
wedges at the SNL performance. Maybe she doesn't usually use IEM's and she
did for the first time at the Grammy's, accounting for her singing off pitch
(not being used to such a radical change in monitoring). Maybe I'm wrong
and she wasn't using wedges on SNL. Either way, it was not a fluke thing;
she was singing off pitch both times I've heard her.

By the way, what do you mean by "there are times when there are technical
problems
especially on live TV when the monitor is not functioning optimally"? Just
because the show is being broadcast live means the monitor wouldn't function
properly?

But the topic is Avril can't sing.

And you have deemed it so from a couple of performances on TV?

Doesn't mean her music can't be sold
anyway.

Bought would be the term. There needs to be a buyer for something to be sold.

There is no accounting for taste.

Correct. It's all opnion.




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

I did. She sounded bad there too. And yes, she was jumping around like she
was on a pogo stick, very stiff and abnormal.

Have you ever watched any of the old UK TV appearances by Black Sabbath? When
you were a kid did you like him jumping like a pogo stick singing out of tune?




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Analogeezer wrote:

rock history is littered with great singers that didn't really
sing in key all that well, she's just not gonna be one of them.

This all comes down to whether it's one's intent to be a singer or an
entertainer.

i.e. Sarah brightman sings.
Mick Jagger entertains (himself and others!).

Myke

--

-================================-
Windows...It's rebootylicious!!!
-================================-

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:54:58 -0600, "Stephen Sank"
wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night, and
I thought she sounded great,

So did I. Never heard her before, and only caught this because
reviewers have compared Liz Phair's unfortunate new album to
her work. She's no Liz Phair, but Liz Phair is no Liz Phair
anymore either.

And I believe she's only going to get better, as long as
the morons in the industry don't drive her into the ground.

A mighty big IF, unfortunately.



Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 22:56:28 -0500, "Thomas Bishop"
wrote:

By the way, what do you mean by "there are times when there are technical
problems
especially on live TV when the monitor is not functioning optimally"? Just
because the show is being broadcast live means the monitor wouldn't function
properly?

I should have said there are times when there are technical
problems, such as the monitors are not functioning optimally, but they
are especially distressing if your on live TV. They hand comes out and
counts down to your segment and you get tense because the cue has to
be tight. Then you "go for it", even if your guitar has gone out of
tune or you can't hear.
Paul Gitlitz
Glitchless Productions
www.glitchless.net

On 07 Jul 2003 04:00:45 GMT, (EggHd) wrote:

Right. There was also Ed Sullivan.

Who the hell could even hear the Beatles over all that screaming?

But remember Midnight Special? There were plenty of bands with very bad
performaces on that show. The TV debut of the Doobie Brothers come to mind.
Really out of tune vocals.

I sort of remember it, I must have been in the 60's.
My big disappointment was hearing C.S.N.&Y live.
They must have toked up on some good spliff cause they were singing
from different planets.


Paul Gitlitz
Glitchless Productions
www.glitchless.net

(a b) wrote in message om...
what sound-scan-verifiable top 10 lyrics have you written that are
better than her chart outings?

if you are secretly bob dylan or something to that effect, then my
sincere apologies. but arm-chair-quarterbacking-never-beens hold no
quarter in my camp.

i really and sincerely hope, for your sake, that you don't seriously
judge lyrical/artistic merit based on soundscan ratings. i really do.
if you *are* serious, i pity you because you're really missing out.
....maybe you should hike out of your "camp' and getcherself sum
kultcherin' up.

'her' lyrics are really the most puerile and stale thing i've heard on
FM radio in awhile...and that's sayin' a mouthful, pal.

i'm not armchair-quarterbacking. i never suggested how she and her
producers should do their thing. i merely criticised the quality of
the end product of their labors. having been exposed to it by radio
and television as per their intent, i feel that i'm entitled to do so
as anyone else is.

....you don't have to be a master chef to know when you're eating a
pile of ****.

In article ,
(transducr) wrote:

'her' lyrics are really the most puerile and stale thing i've heard on
FM radio in awhile...and that's sayin' a mouthful, pal.

I don´t find them any worse than most of the rest to be honest.

My 5 year old daughter totally *loves* Avril, so that's good enough for me.

It makes her want to be a singer, which I think is great.

My daughter , along with the target market of Avril Lavigne (or "The Matrix"
production team) dont give a flying F**k about production values, if
Autotune was used, or if was done by "cool" industry people on "cool vintage
gear" with no EQ !!

I guess it reminds me that the values I would look for in an album aren't
necessarily that imoprtant to the casual listener, and tht something that
connects with the listener is the most important thing.

My 5 yr old Asha tells me that when she hears " the high singing bit in "I'm
with You"" that she misses her Grandma. Obviously that song connects
emotionally with her.

I can't say I've ever felt *anything* like that from anything on "2 against
Nature", for example.

Just a thought.




YMMV


Geoff


--
Geoff Duncan
Gherkin Productions Limited
Wellington New Zealand
www.gherkin.vze.com

One of the problems of becoming a quick star. No background, no blood,
sweat and tears. No night after night after night of club gigs honing your
craft. These days everyone just jumps into a studio, does 4 gazillion
takes, comps a passable vocal, and then they are stars. Other than touting
that she's wanted to be a singer/songwriter since the age of two I see no
mention of her having even done a single club gig. Just attended a
songwriter's thing and got signed. Sounds like corporate instant stardom to
me, so it's not surprising that she hasn't the vocal chops. It takes
practice and performance.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"EggHd" wrote in message
...
When I first heard/saw her, and in the occasional snippets I have
witnessed since, I could just not get over how amaturish this "band"
was. What has the music business become? Very sad.

Yep young teen idols being less than stellar live is such a new thing.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Yeah, but remember, monitoring was **** back then, too. It's awfully hard
to sing well together if you can't hear correctly.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"EggHd" wrote in message
...
I think the big difference between way back and now though is that way
back "live" was usually American Bandstand and they lipsynched to the
record, so you didn't have to hear them actually sing.

Right. There was also Ed Sullivan.

But remember Midnight Special? There were plenty of bands with very bad
performaces on that show. The TV debut of the Doobie Brothers come to
mind.
Really out of tune vocals.




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

I'd have to disagree about Mick. He is an entertainer, but he's also a good
lyrisist and a fine singer for the type of music he plays. Wouldn't want to
hear him do some Gershwin, but then I wouldn't want to hear Shirley Horn
sing any Tina Turner tunes either! g

And I damned sure didn't want to hear Irene Reid do the Stevie Ray Vaughn
song "Crossroad", but then again, you don't know you don't want to hear it
until it's too late!

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Lord Hasenpfeffer" wrote in message
...
Analogeezer wrote:

rock history is littered with great singers that didn't really
sing in key all that well, she's just not gonna be one of them.

This all comes down to whether it's one's intent to be a singer or an
entertainer.

i.e. Sarah brightman sings.
Mick Jagger entertains (himself and others!).

Myke

--

-================================-
Windows...It's rebootylicious!!!
-================================-

If one looks at art from a dollar perspective, then you have a point. But
in this case the "art" in question doesn't appear to have any "art" in it,
judging by these responses. I don't pay any attention to young people's
music these days simply because I find 16 year old songwriters have about as
much world experience to write about as any other 16 year old. Songs about
feelings are just poorly executed poems with music. When a songwriter can
make you see the feeling without saying what the feeling is, then that's
craft. It works for the teens because they can identify with the baseness
of bald emotions. Apparently more mature individuals don't buy it.

Can't argue with the charts, but they don't chart art and talent.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"EggHd" wrote in message
...
Consistant with Any well-couched 17 yr old. But it would be nice to
choose one that could actually sing..

The public chose to buy Avril. never forget that.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Chris Hornbeck wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:54:58 -0600, "Stephen Sank"
wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about. I saw the same SNL last night, and
I thought she sounded great,

So did I. Never heard her before, and only caught this because
reviewers have compared Liz Phair's unfortunate new album to
her work. She's no Liz Phair, but Liz Phair is no Liz Phair
anymore either.

And I believe she's only going to get better, as long as
the morons in the industry don't drive her into the ground.

A mighty big IF, unfortunately.



Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority


The new Liz Phair was produced and co-written by "The Matrix".

Stupid ****ing name, and I had to buy a car with that name....makes me
want to go and pry the emblems off g

Liz Phair cannot really sing either, but she had a cool vibe, sort of
like she was singing on 'ludes. Given the fact that her older stuff is
more or less "anti-pop", in tune vocals are not such a requirement.

Plus she wrote some great lyrics....e.g. "He asked me if I liked to do
it backwards, I said that was fine with me....that way we can **** and
watch TV"

Analogeezer