Some moron said, while spouting off about matters he doesn't understand:
If you think that bimbo is a talented singer, you have **** between
your ears.

A couple of engineers who I repspect greatly have recorded Shannia (one
pre-Mutt, one with Mutt producing); according to them, she actually IS a
fine singer.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"EggHd" wrote in message ...
Hank,

How do you come up with such funny ****?


The F-o-Matic 2003 has just been re-issued and Hank's got a full clip.

DM

Mark Stebbeds wrote:

On 8 Jul 2003 18:04:11 -0700, (Kris Singh)
wrote:

You all are jealous of her success. If you like it, enjoy it, if not,
don't B**ch about her. I hate people who can't let someones success
be. If it is not for you, then leave it alone.

Actually, it's a few pros discussing the hows and whys certain artists
are successful, and how much "talent" has to do with it.

Strat trying to spend
your time making something that you think is good. Maybe, if you are
lucky, 1/10 the amount of people who like Avril Lavigne will like what
you do. After all, if she is so bad, you should be able to blow her
numbers away. Get off these message boards and start making records!!

**** off troll.

Naaah, he's got a good point, and it's a point parallel to one of Ted
Spencer's, that anybody really successful is going to catch a load of
empty shells from the peanut gallery.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

For anywhere from two weeks
up to as much as 20 weeks on a hit, the box office forfeits 100% of
the proceeds to the film company.

I'm going to look into this.




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Aaron Johnston wrote:

Well, no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of men who think
with the little head.

That's the only head you've got, Poopsicle. You will be disappearing
from screens around the globe.

--
ha

EggHd wrote:

Hank,

How do you come up with such funny ****?


Damn, here I thought I was being serious. g

TIA

--
ha

Artie Turner wrote:

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:

And if she stands in front of me and sings a cappela I'll know something
of her singing talent.

I love that song!

It's all in your head, my man.

--
ha

"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message
.. .
EggHd wrote:

Hank,

How do you come up with such funny ****?


Damn, here I thought I was being serious. g


Yeah, Hank, you're seriously funny!

Jerry Steiger

"EggHd" wrote in message ...
For anywhere from two weeks
up to as much as 20 weeks on a hit, the box office forfeits 100% of
the proceeds to the film company.

I'm going to look into this.


I managed theatres about 20 years ago... hence my first line disclaimer.
(And I probably should have said 'distributor', which isn't always the parent
company).

DM


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

"Ted Spencer" wrote in message
...
It's easier for me to associate Avril Lavigne with a certain image
concept than with a particular sound/musical vibe.

EggHd wrote:

At this point it's about a handful of hits and major video play. Some
segment
of the population is buying her records. She seems to have out sold by a
wide
margin both Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton.

What this means for the long is an unkown.
BRBR

And in case no none remembers, records only sell in big numbers because
people
*listen to them*, not look at them. Over and over and over again. Avril's
*record* connects with her listeners (fans), period. No record company can
sell
more than a (relativley) few records to kids if they don't get into the
music,
no matter how cool the artist's image is. It's been proven thousands of
time
with artists you've never heard of (guess why).

Anyone reading this is no different and neither are any of their friends.
Quick
- think of the last time you recommended an album to a friend primarily
because
of visual or fashion-based considerations. Think all the way back to your
teen
years. I bet it didn't take long to answer "never" did it? What about the
last
time you bought one on someone else's recommendation for the same reasons?

Uh-huh...

Now ask yourself the same question except substitute "because you loved
the
music" for "because of visual or fashion-based considerations" in the
second
paragraph.

See?


Although... you don't see ugly people or people who won't don the
appropriate image in public getting over, because the promotion machine does
indeed involve fashion. But I agree, there needs to be some connection with
the music, or at least with the individual that has to drive the purchase
(young person feels they relate to the person because they relate to the
music, but also they relate to the music because they feel a connection with
that person somehow... that's why interviews help to sell records I
suppose.)

jb

"EggHd" wrote in message
...
Actually, plenty of 80s haircut bands got my money thanks to fashion.


How did you know which bands to buy? Press MTV radio? Did you see
apicture
and buy and album without hearing the music?

Fashion and image
created a sense that these people shared my perspective, or more often,
existed in some fantasy world I wanted to be a part of.

So you would buy records of any band at a club, good or not, signed or not
based on the way they looked?

Billy Idol would
be a good example of an Avril Lavigne-type who I bit for... The songs
are just tame MOR rock (dude covered Mony Mony for God's sake), but
because of the punk trappings, I ate it up.

Right but Billy Idol had huge radio and MTV hits and was a star in that
time
frame. He looked the same and sounded the same in his prior band
Generation X,
did you buy those records?


What's missing here... on both sides of the discussion.. is the fact that
MTV combined the music with fashion seamlessly. Was it the music alone that
drove Idol's sales or was it the complete package? MTV, radio play, rolling
stone photos, all combined to form a single impression. It was difficult to
hear the music without picturing the other promo material, and vice-versa.

jb

"EggHd" wrote in message
...
What's missing here... on both sides of the discussion.. is the fact
that
MTV combined the music with fashion seamlessly.

I think that happened when Frank Sinatra made movies, Elvis went on the
new
media TV on Ed Sullivan, Milton berle, Steve Allen etc, and then started
making
movies.

How man people ever say the Beatles other than TV and movies? The British
invasion was all about a sound, a fashion, a new generation. The peoples
made
promo videos as well as did a lot of bands in that era.

MTV made it possible to play clips over and over again and not have to
wait for
your favorite weekly hour long show.


Yeah, the new thing wasn't really combining video with audio... that was
around for a long time. It was doing it in three minute segments, like radio
songs, and making the commercials look like music videos and the music
videos look like commercials.

As much as people love the Beatles' music, it was the whole package that got
them over... half the press was about 'mop tops'.

Even something like the greatful dead or phish.... as much as people want to
claim 'it's about the music' (which as far as the Dead go, I have mixed
feelings), it has just as much to do with the whole package.. the little
symbols, the tie-dyes, and on a more general level the selling of community
as a commodity, it's always great if you can tie a product so thoroughly to
an idea, which IMO was 75 percent of their success.

jb

jd-10 wrote:

In article ,
(georgeh) wrote:


I've seen that clip and recall an interview where The Fabs claimed
that they quit touring because they were no longer able to perform
songs like P-back Writer live due to the stacked vocals. But when I
saw the clip, I wondered why they thought that. They *DID* pretty
well "nail it" and chose the voices for the live version VERY wisely.


I think that's the LAMEST excuse for not gigging and AFAIC, once they
did that, they ceased being a *band* and simply became very well paid
session players.

Yeah, hot session cats. They just showed up at the studio and
played whatever music was put in front of them. Hats off to
whoever wrote those tunes they played on though.

Don Pearce wrote:

On 07 Jul 2003 17:39:42 GMT, (Ted Spencer) wrote:


Agreed, except that in the case of Bush bashing it's absolutely justified.


Scott Fraser BRBR

I'm no Bush fan either but let's try not to go there right now, ok?


Ted Spencer, NYC


But what do you prefer, shave or wax?


That was too rich!

EggHd wrote:
I did. She sounded bad there too. And yes, she was jumping around like she
was on a pogo stick, very stiff and abnormal.

Have you ever watched any of the old UK TV appearances by Black Sabbath?


When you were a kid did you like him jumping like a pogo stick singing out of tune?



Nope, not even when I was a kid. I saw them at Cal Jam (at 15)
and thought he was lame. And I was there for Deep Purple.

Mike Turk wrote:


The funny thing is though, the best singer I've worked with told me that he
didn't
rely on the monitors, but that he could hear his voice in his head ... which
is bizarre
to me because I can't hear a damn thing of my own voice once the drums and
guitars are at 'volume'.

-mike


I've had many nights when I couldn't hear myself at all, and
literally relying on muscle memory in my throat to sing on
pitch. I have tapes of some of those nights to prove that it
works. Then I have tapes of nights where I had great
monitors, and my singing was sour.
Like sometimes when I shoot pool, I can run the table non
stop, while other times, I may as well be blindfolded.
Biorhythms......

Those big blue eyes of hers were sure, uh, big & blue.
I did a date or 2 with her in NYC, I think it was at the Warehouse, a
Lucas-McFall date, she was a real pro!
Tom



"Dave Martin" wrote in message
...
"Ted Spencer" wrote in message
...

Funny though, that comment, coming from you. I'm always thoroughly
impressed
with the studio singer tracks I get up here from Nashville. I sometimes
find
myself wishing we had singers like that here...

My basis for that assumption came from a singer here in town who was a big
part of the jingle scene in the early 80's, when a certain number of
Nashville singers were quite busy - working here and also flying up to
Chicago once or twice a month for accounts up there - Janie Frickie was
one
of them. She told me that she became so curious about why the New York
jingle singers sounded so good that she moved up there to work and find
out.
I asked her what she learned, and she said that they were simply great
singers...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

Well, I'd rather hear Natalie Merchant doing standards than the stuff she
writes, or even Sinead O'Connor (who pulled off a great cut on a George
Martin produced set of standards). But then I really count Mick as being
somewhat musically pidgeonholed by his own tastes, although I know him not
on a personal basis and have never had the opportunity to sit and listen to
music with him. My point was that although he's entertaining, I don't
discount him as a talent, both in singing and in songwriting, and in fact
place his talent above his ability to entertain.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"sgordon" wrote in message
...
Roger W. Norman wrote:
: Wouldn't want to hear him do some Gershwin,

I wouldn't be so quick to count him out in that regard.
Who would have guessed Rod Stewart could do such a credible
job on old standards?

Scott

In article ,
(georgeh) wrote:


I've seen that clip and recall an interview where The Fabs claimed
that they quit touring because they were no longer able to perform
songs like P-back Writer live due to the stacked vocals. But when I
saw the clip, I wondered why they thought that. They *DID* pretty
well "nail it" and chose the voices for the live version VERY wisely.

I was told the REAL reason they were no longer touring was because they
were fighting with each other too much.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery Recording Project Design and Consulting
Box 90412, Nashville TN 37209 Tracking, Mixing, Mastering, Audio for Picture
615.385.8051 FAX: 615.385.8196 Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
40 years of making people sound better than they ever imagined!

I managed theatres about 20 years ago... hence my first line disclaimer.

I'm not doubting anything, it's something I have never really looked into.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message ...
In article ,
(georgeh) wrote:


I've seen that clip and recall an interview where The Fabs claimed
that they quit touring because they were no longer able to perform
songs like P-back Writer live due to the stacked vocals. But when I
saw the clip, I wondered why they thought that. They *DID* pretty
well "nail it" and chose the voices for the live version VERY wisely.

I was told the REAL reason they were no longer touring was because they
were fighting with each other too much.

That was my interpretation, as well. ("No re-unions")

DM

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery Recording Project Design and Consulting
Box 90412, Nashville TN 37209 Tracking, Mixing, Mastering, Audio for Picture
615.385.8051 FAX: 615.385.8196 Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
40 years of making people sound better than they ever imagined!

"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message ...
Bryson wrote:

I've had many nights when I couldn't hear myself at all, and
literally relying on muscle memory in my throat to sing on
pitch. I have tapes of some of those nights to prove that it
works. Then I have tapes of nights where I had great
monitors, and my singing was sour.
Like sometimes when I shoot pool, I can run the table non
stop, while other times, I may as well be blindfolded.
Biorhythms...

What's the best Biorhythm machine?


How much can you spend?

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote...

What's the best Biorhythm machine?

How much can you spend?

_Spend_? Can't I just download it??

--
ha

In article ,
Aaron Johnston wrote:

u really think Shania is good looking and a good singer?

Both are subjective.

I happen to find her extremely easy on the eyes.

If you've dated someone better looking, let's see the photos.

CT

What's missing here... on both sides of the discussion.. is the fact that
MTV combined the music with fashion seamlessly.

I think that happened when Frank Sinatra made movies, Elvis went on the new
media TV on Ed Sullivan, Milton berle, Steve Allen etc, and then started making
movies.

How man people ever say the Beatles other than TV and movies? The British
invasion was all about a sound, a fashion, a new generation. The peoples made
promo videos as well as did a lot of bands in that era.

MTV made it possible to play clips over and over again and not have to wait for
your favorite weekly hour long show.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In answer, at least partly to your question, here's a quote from Maria
Anderssonand from Sahara Hotnights

"Plus, I only practice when we rehearse. You don’t want to be too good, you
see, or you’ll ruin what makes the music interesting"

This kinda says a lot, if not all about how young players today think about
music. Somehow I don't believe my playing mistakes are making things
interesting! g
-


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Ted Spencer" wrote in message
...
Two thoughts:

1) Many of us work in studios here, right? How many singers have all of
you
worked with who step up to the mic and totally nail take one, even in an
ideal
environment? How many truly excellent singers have you worked with who end
up
doing extensive punching/comping etc. to get the vocal to where they're
happy
with it?

Sorry to have to drag out my creds here (again), but I've worked with
dozens of
pop star singers (check my name on allmusic.com for an - incomplete -
list). I
can count the singers I've recorded on the fingers of one hand that could
basically nail every take. Daryl Hall, Barry Manilow, Gerard Kenny (you
probably haven't heard of him unless you were in England in the late
70's),
and...uh...let me think here...

Even Roberta Flack, one of the very best and most consistent singers I've
ever
had the pleasure of recording, could be way off pitch at times, especially
in
concert. Many others were far worse.

I've never worked with Avril, but I've got her record and saw her Grammy
performance. Sure she uses Auto-Tune; almost everybody with half a budget
does
to an extent these days. Nonetheless she does seem IMHO to be a singer
with
actual chops. She has remarkable phrasing/rhythm (which is usually almost
impossible to teach if it doesn't come naturally), and unusually strong
"acting" ability, if you will. You could also call that "attitude". It's
pretty
rare to find singers who can do this more than a little without it
sounding
forced.

2) No matter who it is, how they sound, or what they represent
artistically, in
current pop culture, WHOEVER is hot(test) at any given moment WILL BE
HATED by
a substantial and vociferous group of people who will expend considerable
effort tearing down the subject's supposedly undeserved fame. THERE ARE NO
EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE, EVER. It applies not only to the hottest pop
stars,
but in the exact same way to whoever is President at any given moment,
whatever
brand of studio monitor is most popular (JBL 4311s, NS10s, Genelecs) and
many
other things. All they have to be is "red hot" and out come the brickbats.

I think people engaging in this kind of bashing should take a good hard
look at
their motivations. We're all entitled to our opinions, which includes
hating
Avril, George W or 1031a's, but doing so is utterly predictable, and rings
pretty hollow since the target is so obvious. The simple fact that the
vehemence exists in direct proportion to the success is the giveaway.

Ok...switching rant mode off now...


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

reddred wrote:

As much as people love the Beatles' music, it was the whole package that got
them over... half the press was about 'mop tops'.

Even something like the greatful dead or phish.... as much as people
want to claim 'it's about the music' (which as far as the Dead go, I
have mixed feelings), it has just as much to do with the whole
package.. the little symbols, the tie-dyes, and on a more general
level the selling of community as a commodity, it's always great if
you can tie a product so thoroughly to an idea, which IMO was 75
percent of their success.

Sho nuff.

As far as Avril Lavigne: for me, not paying much attention to her for
any reason, it's a case where the image seems far more specific and
developed than the music (at least, I have a clearer notion of what her
style is supposed to represent than I have of what her music is supposed
to represent).

Peece,
T. Tauri

EggHd wrote:

Well duh, of course not. BUT... given any number of more or less
musically equivalent choices (and there were/are/will be plenty), I
picked one that had an image I related to.

Agreed. Hence all the formats.... Modern, Audlt, Pop, Rock etc.

That's something else. I'm thinking more on a "why coke instead of
pepsi?" tip, than a "why coke instead of sprite?" tip.

Like what allows Alicia Keys to get extra points for playing piano while
Davina (who did far more for her album, playing/programming most
everything) was treated as just another R&B singer? (Well, to me, Keys &
co. really pushed the whole 'sitting at the piano' image to play up her
musicianship, while I never saw anything like that for Davina.)

Why did I opt for Billy Idol's brand of MOR and not some fairly similar
sounding others?

(when I DJ, I
don't have much trouble moving a crowd to any number of
are-and-always-will-be obscurities, but I'm rarely gonna convince
someone to buy that stuff just 'cause they liked the song)

The worst lounge band can get a crowd going with Louie Louie. They
aren't going to buy a record from the band. So we agree.

Seems your agreeing to a different idea than I'm saying here.

but because
the performer as a person (or image of a person anyway) represents
something they identify with or would like to identify with in some more
idealized version of themselves

Right. Someone isn't going to listen to a station that plays Kenny G
if they are into metal.

Again, more on a why coke not pepsi tip...

Why did grunge have a particular fashion aesthetic? Why does hip-hop?
Why rockabilly? It's never ever just about the tunes.

Of course it's about the tunes. There were 150 bands signed that
looked like Nirvana and peral jam and maybe 5 of them sold significant
units. The ones with the best tunes.

You certainly have a lot of faith in the market.

Peece,
T. Tauri

You certainly have a lot of faith in the market.

And you believe a few bands out of that era broke over the others because?



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article , EggHd
wrote:

It was a scene coming
out of an area that took over the medea...

A "scene" is a critical part of the equation and a new generation of
"media" taking over from the jazz age was another component.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery Recording Project Design and Consulting
Box 90412, Nashville TN 37209 Tracking, Mixing, Mastering, Audio for Picture
615.385.8051 FAX: 615.385.8196 Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
40 years of making people sound better than they ever imagined!

Bob Olhsson wrote:
In article ,
(georgeh) wrote:



I've seen that clip and recall an interview where The Fabs claimed
that they quit touring because they were no longer able to perform
songs like P-back Writer live due to the stacked vocals. But when I
saw the clip, I wondered why they thought that. They *DID* pretty
well "nail it" and chose the voices for the live version VERY wisely.


I was told the REAL reason they were no longer touring was because they
were fighting with each other too much.


What do you mean? I saw them in "Hard Days Night", and they
were getting along fine!

EggHd wrote:

You certainly have a lot of faith in the market.

And you believe a few bands out of that era broke over the others
because?

All kinds of reasons... some owing to music, many not.

Peece,
T. Tauri