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#1
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How do resistors work?
Just wondering.
cheers, Ian |
#2
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How do resistors work?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:54:04 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote: Just wondering. Very funny indeed. Everyone knows that resistors don't work; they just sit around passively-aggressively absorbing the good honest and true toil of others. There oughta be a law ag'in em, Chris Hornbeck "Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, A medley of extemporanea; And love is a thing that can never go wrong; and I am Marie of Roumania." - Dorothy Parker |
#3
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How do resistors work?
A Mommy R and a Daddy R fall in love and have baby Rs. Some are
shorted, and go into management, some are open, and become academics. Most just show up late and complain about the coffee. Happy Ears! Al |
#4
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How do resistors work?
On 15 Aug 2006 21:19:23 -0700, "
wrote: A Mommy R and a Daddy R fall in love and have baby Rs. Hey! Keep it clean. Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck "I expect a black silence that is almost as violent as laughter." - Jean Cocteau, 1932 |
#5
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. Pretty much the same way a river does. Graham |
#6
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How do resistors work?
wrote in message oups.com... A Mommy R and a Daddy R fall in love and have baby Rs. After putting up a stiff resistance, of course. Some are shorted, and go into management, some are open, and become academics. Most just show up late and complain about the coffee. Many young resistors these days have little tolerance. cheers, Ian |
#7
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote:
Just wondering. cheers, Ian They resist. :-) |
#8
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How do resistors work?
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message . uk... wrote in message oups.com... A Mommy R and a Daddy R fall in love and have baby Rs. After putting up a stiff resistance, of course. Some are shorted, and go into management, some are open, and become academics. Most just show up late and complain about the coffee. Many young resistors these days have little tolerance. cheers, Ian Indeed. Any many, particularly those of low value, have little potential. |
#9
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How do resistors work?
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#10
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How do resistors work?
robert casey wrote: Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. cheers, Ian They resist. :-) And if you live in NZ, they resust. But resistance exists in everything that conducts, even copper wire. So Ian's question should not have been how do resistors work, but what is resistance. Basically, the resistance of any conductor bothers the easy flow of electrons along it, spoiling the paths with mini hurdles, and creating maze like paths. There are active resistances created by active devices. I guess they work differently to a bit of resistance wire, carbon film, metal film etc. Then very queer things happn when a conductor ( with resistance ) is cooled to within a faction of a degree of absolute zero degrees. So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? Patrick Turner. |
#11
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How do resistors work?
Ned Carlson wrote: wrote: A Mommy R and a Daddy R fall in love and have baby Rs. Their finances were a mess, since they couldn't handle a charge. And when they oscar lay ted they were found to have impudence. Patrick Turner. -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
#12
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How do resistors work?
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:03:19 GMT, Patrick Turner wrote: So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? I guess that you mean -272 C, as the Kelvin scale is positive, going from zero to infinity, with 0 K = -273.15 C= absolute zero. Well yes, its 42 years since I last thought about absolute zero being 0.0 degrees Kelvin, ie, -273.15C... Bleeding cold mate, enough to freeze the ball off the brass monkey! A typical tantalum resistor will become superconductive below 4.47 K, while chromium needs to be below 3 K. Both would be superconductive at atmospheric presure when subjected to a temperature of -272 C / 1.15 K, a level quite easily reachable in lab conditions using evaporated helium and a dedicated chamber. BTW, all type I metals or alloys only become superconductive when very close to absolute zero, with the best conductors at normal temps such as copper or silver showing very poor superconductivity because of their lone floating electron and hence lack of Cooper pairing Ah, so a barrel maker is involved. What if he makes 3 barrels? A type II ceramic is another story. The record - if I remember correctly - is currently held by (Hg0.8Tl0.2)Ba2Ca2Cu3O8.33 which goes super at 138 K (1). So, if we take an imaginary all tantalum 1 M resistor and subject it to a temperature below 4.47 K, it'll go superconductive and it's actual resistance will be nil all the way down to absolute zero... (1): "Synthesis and Neutron Powder Diffraction Study of the Superconductor HgBa2Ca2Cu3O8+ by Tl Substitution" http://www.ceramics.nist.gov/srd/hts/A00373.htm Well, I guess there ain't much chance of lowering the Ra of a triode by super cooling the blighter. But hey, super cooling interconnects and speaker cables would be a greatly saleable idea? Patrick Turner. |
#13
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How do resistors work?
Patrick Turner wrote: robert casey wrote: Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. cheers, Ian They resist. :-) And if you live in NZ, they resust. But resistance exists in everything that conducts, even copper wire. So Ian's question should not have been how do resistors work, but what is resistance. Basically, the resistance of any conductor bothers the easy flow of electrons along it, spoiling the paths with mini hurdles, and creating maze like paths. There are active resistances created by active devices. I guess they work differently to a bit of resistance wire, carbon film, metal film etc. Then very queer things happn when a conductor ( with resistance ) is cooled to within a faction of a degree of absolute zero degrees. So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? -272K will certainly be very damn chilly ! Graham |
#14
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How do resistors work?
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:37:08 GMT, Patrick Turner wrote: their lone floating electron and hence lack of Cooper pairing Ah, so a barrel maker is involved. Lock, stock and barrel. :-) What if he makes 3 barrels? Hmmm. Electrons always go in pairs. OTOH, electrons are part of the lepton trio with muon, and tauon. Or is it Larry, Mo and Curly? But if these electrons are queer, and fark a bit, then you get a quark, which may or may not be there at all, depending who is looking in on things..... Not really my field. Not even an electrostatic one. Patrick Turner. |
#15
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How do resistors work?
"robert casey" wrote in message ink.net... Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. cheers, Ian They resist. :-) Resistance is futile!! |
#16
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How do resistors work?
So much for cyro-ing resistors in my amp... Or at least I should wait
until they warm back up again. :-) |
#17
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How do resistors work?
Patrick Turner wrote:
So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? Patrick Turner. Hi RATs! His penis. 1M always measure their penis. 1F resistors don't exist at imaginary temperatures. Even if they did, there would be nothing worth measuring ... which may account for why they don't exist there ... Happy Ears! Al |
#18
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How do resistors work?
Patrick Turner wrote
And if you live in NZ, they resust. But resistance exists in everything that conducts, even copper wire. So Ian's question should not have been how do resistors work, but what is resistance. Er...why? I can tell you what resistance is: R = V / I where R is resistance, V is voltage, and I is current. Basically, the resistance of any conductor bothers the easy flow of electrons along it, spoiling the paths with mini hurdles, and creating maze like paths. I see. Are these "mini hurdles" and "maze like paths" related to "virtual summing nodes"? There are active resistances created by active devices. I guess they work differently to a bit of resistance wire, carbon film, metal film etc. Which is obviously why I asked about resistors, not resistance. Then very queer things happn when a conductor ( with resistance ) is cooled to within a faction of a degree of absolute zero degrees. I wonder why? So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? No-one. It's a mystery. My guess is -1M. Perhaps we have invented the perfect generator. All we need now is the fridge. cheers, Ian |
#19
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How do resistors work?
Eeyore wrote:
-272K will certainly be very damn chilly ! Graham -272K is British "room temperature". -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
#20
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Patrick Turner wrote And if you live in NZ, they resust. But resistance exists in everything that conducts, even copper wire. So Ian's question should not have been how do resistors work, but what is resistance. Er...why? I can tell you what resistance is: R = V / I where R is resistance, V is voltage, and I is current. This does not tell us what resistance is or how resistors work. It merely tells us the result of the resistance phenomenon which is the action on voltage and current. This Basically, the resistance of any conductor bothers the easy flow of electrons along it, spoiling the paths with mini hurdles, and creating maze like paths. I see. Are these "mini hurdles" and "maze like paths" related to "virtual summing nodes"? I see you are dragging another red herring across the trail to truth. There is absolutely no relationship to the way resistors work and the virtual "summing nodes" that occur in triodes. There are active resistances created by active devices. I guess they work differently to a bit of resistance wire, carbon film, metal film etc. Which is obviously why I asked about resistors, not resistance. Well nobody has yet really answered your question. I guess the quantum theorists at Cambidge University might have a comprehensible explanation. Why didn't you email them instead of us? Then very queer things happn when a conductor ( with resistance ) is cooled to within a faction of a degree of absolute zero degrees. I wonder why? Everything gets so fukkin cold the resistor can't even resist. It's too busy shivering its arse off. So who knows what a 1M resistor measures at -272K? No-one. It's a mystery. My guess is -1M. Perhaps we have invented the perfect generator. All we need now is the fridge. Actually, I am not aware of any objects at -273K having been observed since the lowest temp is merely 0 degrees K. Once things in the universe go down to that temperature, they cannot get any colder. This seems strange, like the idea that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If there is a God, one would think he'd be able to zip around the universe in really cool rockets at millions of degrees K cooler than we think is the limit, and be able to go at millions of times the speed of light. We know **** all about what's really out there of course.... Patrick Turner. cheers, Ian |
#21
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How do resistors work?
"Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... This does not tell us what resistance is or how resistors work. It merely tells us the result of the resistance phenomenon which is the action on voltage and current. I remember from some basic lectures I took years ago that semiconductors work with foxes and rabits. If there are rabits (-) somewhere the foxes (+) want to eat them and thus there will be current. The professor never talked about resistors, but my wild guess is that they work with the same principles. Might be difficult to get foxes in surface mount tesistors so they must be made somehow different. Might be ants that carry the charges. The other more known theory is of course that the resistance is caused by blue smoke that carries the charge particles. If this blue smoke for some reason comes out of the resistor the resistivity vanishes. The component is either open or short circuit. Pete |
#22
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. The work with varying degrees of conductance. |
#23
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How do resistors work?
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message o.uk... Just wondering. They don't work, they just sit there resisting! Alan cheers, Ian |
#24
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How do resistors work?
Alan Holmes wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message o.uk... Just wondering. They don't work, they just sit there resisting! Resistance is futile ! USA Resistance is useless ! UK Graham |
#25
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How do resistors work?
Hmm, not much further forward I'm afraid.
What I am particularly interested in is how one end knows what the other end is doing. If I connect one end to the positive terminal of a battery and leave the other end open, no current flows from the positive terminal. If I connect the other end to the negative terminal then current flows from the positive terminal. How does the positive end know that the other end has been connected? What is the mechanism of causality here? More mysteriously, how does the negative end know that the positive end is connected? What stops the charge from flowing in when none is flowing out? I had always assumed that there were electrostatic forces at work. Patrick says not. That's the mystery. cheers, Ian |
#26
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Hmm, not much further forward I'm afraid. What I am particularly interested in is how one end knows what the other end is doing. Why would it need to ? It's not a sentient object anyway, If I connect one end to the positive terminal of a battery and leave the other end open, no current flows from the positive terminal. If I connect the other end to the negative terminal then current flows from the positive terminal. How does the positive end know that the other end has been connected? What is the mechanism of causality here? Good Lord ! More mysteriously, how does the negative end know that the positive end is connected? What stops the charge from flowing in when none is flowing out? I had always assumed that there were electrostatic forces at work. Patrick says not. That's the mystery. You're an even bigger idiot than I first imagined. It's the faeries that make resistors work btw. Don't expect an intelligent explanation since you'll just say I'm wrong. I wondered if you were originally trolling and now it's clear you are. Graham |
#27
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How do resistors work?
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:32:11 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote: Hmm, not much further forward I'm afraid. What I am particularly interested in is how one end knows what the other end is doing. If I connect one end to the positive terminal of a battery and leave the other end open, no current flows from the positive terminal. If I connect the other end to the negative terminal then current flows from the positive terminal. How does the positive end know that the other end has been connected? What is the mechanism of causality here? More mysteriously, how does the negative end know that the positive end is connected? What stops the charge from flowing in when none is flowing out? I had always assumed that there were electrostatic forces at work. Patrick says not. That's the mystery. Actually, it's an interesting question. Electrons move by being either "extra" or "not enough" near some adjacent electron cloud, but generalities much beyond that are fraught with peril. Some atoms have valences that would be happy to see another electron, others have valences that would enjoy losing an electron; still others could care less. There're also a certain group, illegal around here, but not totally unknown, that swing both ways, known in the periodic table as potential semi-conductors. They're uniformly interesting elements, but should be avoided by the self-conscious or squeamish. Avoiding this disparate element leads all right-thinking people immediately to vacuum valves, clean living devices with freedom and equality for electrons, public spirited electron cooperation in anode current decision making, and a truly revolutionary lack of granularity by virtue of being a field effect device. Sadly, they have no internal feedback, but nobody's perfect, Always the best, Chris Hornbeck "Since when are you here to be entertained? I don't care what they're talking about. All I want is a nice fat recording." - Harry Caul (Gene Hackman) in _The Conversation_ (1974) |
#28
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How do resistors work?
Chris wrote
Actually, it's an interesting question. Electrons move by being either "extra" or "not enough" near some adjacent electron cloud, but generalities much beyond that are fraught with peril. Some atoms have valences that would be happy to see another electron, others have valences that would enjoy losing an electron; still others could care less. There're also a certain group, illegal around here, but not totally unknown, that swing both ways, known in the periodic table as potential semi-conductors. They're uniformly interesting elements, but should be avoided by the self-conscious or squeamish. Avoiding this disparate element leads all right-thinking people immediately to vacuum valves, clean living devices with freedom and equality for electrons, public spirited electron cooperation in anode current decision making, and a truly revolutionary lack of granularity by virtue of being a field effect device. Sadly, they have no internal feedback, but nobody's perfect Thanks for all your help, Chris. Ever heard of Ivor Catt? http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ No endorsement implied :-) cheers, Ian |
#29
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Ever heard of Ivor Catt? http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ Yes. He lives in the same city as me and he's got a reputation for having the odd screw loose. Graham |
#30
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How do resistors work?
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:08:28 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote: Ever heard of Ivor Catt? http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ No endorsement implied :-) Not really, no. But a glance through the index includes: "Relativity. Falsification of experimental 'proof', and continuing cover-up" which doesn't exactly encourage deeper study. He (why, oh why is it *always* a "he"?) also seems to have a lot of family issues. Hope they work out. Always the best, Chris Hornbeck "History consists of truths which in the end turn into lies, while myth consists of lies which finally turn into truths." - Jean Cocteau |
#31
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How do resistors work?
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message . uk... Hmm, not much further forward I'm afraid. Funny, I did not realise you were serious :-) What I am particularly interested in is how one end knows what the other end is doing. If I connect one end to the positive terminal of a battery and leave the other end open, no current flows from the positive terminal. If I connect the other end to the negative terminal then current flows from the positive terminal. How does the positive end know that the other end has been connected? What is the mechanism of causality here? It is pretty much the same thing as happens with a Coce bottle. If you turn it around with the cap on, we could question with your logic, why doesn't the Coce in the bottom (which now is up) just come out. How does it know that in the other end the cap is on? The free electrons are like a string of pearls. If you push the other end nothing happens. The pearls start moving only when you at the same time pull from the other end. This can only be accomplished continuously if the two ends are connected, that is, electricity can only move in circle. Pete |
#32
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How do resistors work?
Chris wrote
Not really, no. But a glance through the index includes: "Relativity. Falsification of experimental 'proof', and continuing cover-up" which doesn't exactly encourage deeper study. He (why, oh why is it *always* a "he"?) also seems to have a lot of family issues. Hope they work out. Perhaps family issues and conspiracy paranoia are related? Much experience of Muslim family relations in the North of England suggests to me that is so. Unfortunately it seems the nature of some family issues that they are never worked out. I spent some time trying to grasp what he means by the "Catt Anomaly" when he had an account of it published in Electronics World. The editor of the magazine was ousted shortly afterwards, hopefully for publishing rubbish. Coincidentally, checking Catt's site for the first time last night I find he elicited a reasonable summary of how resistors work from a former (vague and distant) colleague of mine at Bradford University. Considering that was where I was first introduced to the theory of electric things, I thought I should check whether I might be a victim of Catt's conspiratorial "establishment". Anyway, this Dean of Engineering points out that the commonly understood mechanism of transmission of electricity through a conductor (posted on this thread in several guises) explains conduction, but not resistance. He seems to say that resistance arises from collisions, which surprises me. I had imagined a bucket relay. The passing of the buckets is the transport of charge, and communication is achieved by means of a standing wave which "travels" much faster than the buckets. As they pass the buckets and then reach back for the empties, the firemen sway and get hot so the rate of passing is limited. If you pack the firemen tight together so they can only move their arms, they can't sway, don't get hot, and can pass the buckets much quicker. Hence superconductivity. I hadn't imagined collisions between the various combinations of fireman and bucket. They would cause crises of organisation in addition to more heat, and spilling of water too. So I guess there are many bucket relays in parallel, lots of standing waves breaking down and reforming, and much turbulent confusion in the ranks. All a fireman wants is his own bucket of water. Physics is so cynical. cheers, Ian |
#33
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How do resistors work?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:54:04 +0000, Ian Iveson wrote:
Just wondering. cheers, Ian It depends on the strength of the bond between electrons and the nucleus in each atom of the material. Materials with a weak bond, where electrons are easily knocked away by other "free" electrons, are good conductors. Materials with a strong bond, where electrons can't be knocked free with a strong electrical field, are insulators. Between these two extremes are resistive materials, where the degree of "resistance" is related to the strength of the electron-nucleus bond. The electrons will just sit there orbiting around their own nuclei unless there is a field present to move them away or they get knocked out of orbit. (well - more or less...) When an electrical field is placed across a conductive or resistive material electrons are knocked from one to the other - in the direction of the positive charge (because electrons carry a negative charge). This looks like electrons are "flowing" from negative to positive. The stronger the electron-nucleus bond the less electrons are "free" at any time, so the apparent "flow" is less. This is pretty simplistic. In practice resistors are generally made from just a few materials treated in different ways to make the most of their differing electron-nucleus bonds. e.g. a thin film of metal oxide will have a higher resistance than a thick film of the same material because the resistance is inversely proportional to the cross-sectional area of the film as well as the strength of the electron-nucleus bond. Is that something like what you were looking for? -- Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!) Remove blockage to use my email address Web: http://www.nascom.info & http://mixpix.batcave.net |
#34
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How do resistors work?
Mick wrote
It depends on the strength of the bond between electrons and the nucleus in each atom of the material. Materials with a weak bond, where electrons are easily knocked away by other "free" electrons, are good conductors. Materials with a strong bond, where electrons can't be knocked free with a strong electrical field, are insulators. Between these two extremes are resistive materials, where the degree of "resistance" is related to the strength of the electron-nucleus bond. The electrons will just sit there orbiting around their own nuclei unless there is a field present to move them away or they get knocked out of orbit. (well - more or less...) When an electrical field is placed across a conductive or resistive material electrons are knocked from one to the other - in the direction of the positive charge (because electrons carry a negative charge). This looks like electrons are "flowing" from negative to positive. The stronger the electron-nucleus bond the less electrons are "free" at any time, so the apparent "flow" is less. This is pretty simplistic. In practice resistors are generally made from just a few materials treated in different ways to make the most of their differing electron-nucleus bonds. e.g. a thin film of metal oxide will have a higher resistance than a thick film of the same material because the resistance is inversely proportional to the cross-sectional area of the film as well as the strength of the electron-nucleus bond. Is that something like what you were looking for? Thanks for your time, Mick That's about as good as an explanation I've got for conduction. I don't think it explains resistance though, without extra info. The strength of the bond cannot alone determine the resistance, although it may determine the voltage necessary for conduction to begin. With metals, is there a voltage limit beneath which they stop conducting? I don't think it can be very big, so I assume some electrons in metals can be moved with hardly any force. I have discussed before with flipper the issue of whether an electron thermally emitted from a valve cathode must result in the emission of a photon but I don't think we reached a conclusion on that. I don't think it does. The real issue is how energy is lost. Even if a large force is required, if an electron is moved from one atom to another and ends up at the same energy level without losing anything on the way, then the total energy required is zero. If no energy is lost, then there is no resistance. The emission of photons is one possible mechanism for energy loss. Your account ignores the reaction of the metal ions. That is, you consider the electrons but not there "homes", which are subject to equal and opposite forces. That's why I introduced the bucket relay analogy. I wonder if all that jiggling of matter *is* heat? Are some electrons disturbed from inner levels, which certainly would result in photon emission? These really are genuine questions, but I fear answers may require a large block of knowledge, rather than the odd detail, in my case:-( But what I specifically had in mind is about feedback. My contention is that resistors display the same kind of regulation as triodes, such that if you call that regulation "feedback", then it is achieved not just by triodes, but also by diodes, resistors, and indeed every real component in one way or another. This particular question concerns the *mechanism* of that regulation, and the necessary path of communication from each end of the component to the other. I had, as I have said, assumed that the forces involved are electrostatic. I still think that's true. The details of transmission may be different, but both the resistor and the triode have an input that is effected by the output, and the effect is due to electrostatic forces. I was told I don't know about fields in triodes, but only because the person who told me doesn't understand about the fields in resistors (or indeed in capacitors, or in the winding resistances of a power transformer which are largely responsible for its regulation). At some time in my life, BTW, I was told that metals are in solution with themselves and the idea has stuck. Time to read a book again... But wait...maybe not...look: http://www.bcpl.net/~kdrews/solids/metallics.html Woohoo...the swaying of the firemen *is* heat, exactly, according to the first Google hit I found on "metallic bond". Thanks for making me look. Still not sure how much of the jiggling is due to regular bucket-passing, and how much is due to collisions though...the buckets aren't very heavy compared to the firemen so maybe I should expect collisions to be the major contribution to the heat loss. But then why should collisions happen more when the metal is hot? A moving target is no bigger than a stationary one. Still need to know more... The question was specifically prompted by: PT So what do you think about the writings of Professor Child in Terman's Radio Engineering of 1937 where he discusses the phenomena of "self regulation" ie, NFB in a triode? Me You have put words in the mouth of a writer you clearly don't understand. PT There is very little understanding of a triode in your mind it would seem. Me Feedback is not necessary for regulation. PT But the regulation effects of the interaction of the two electrostaic fields in a triode, one created at the grid and the other by the anode voltage is NFB, and results in the low Ra of a triode. Without the electrostatic field effect from the anode acting on the electron stream there is very little regulation, and gain is merely gm x RL. Ra is extremely high. Perhaps you believe that a power transformer, for which a value may be quoted for "regulation", also has internal feedback? PT There is no electrostatic feedback effect in a power tranny. Me Then all amplifiers with power transformers would have feedback. The same could be argued for every component, active or passive. Everything has feedback if that's all you mean by it. PT You remain ignorant of the interaction of two fields in a triode. |
#35
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: My contention is that resistors display the same kind of regulation as triodes, such that if you call that regulation "feedback", then it is achieved not just by triodes, but also by diodes, resistors, and indeed every real component in one way or another. V = I.R too tricky for you ? Graham |
#36
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How do resistors work?
The real issue is how energy is lost. Even if a large force is required, if an electron is moved from one atom to another and ends up at the same energy level without losing anything on the way, then the total energy required is zero. If no energy is lost, then there is no resistance. The emission of photons is one possible mechanism for energy loss. Another is heat. Kinetic energy of the atoms as electrons come and go. |
#37
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How do resistors work?
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 03:20:27 +0100, Eeyore
wrote: Ian Iveson wrote: My contention is that resistors display the same kind of regulation as triodes, such that if you call that regulation "feedback", then it is achieved not just by triodes, but also by diodes, resistors, and indeed every real component in one way or another. V = I.R too tricky for you ? You've obviously been away, and have missed the current religious argument on r.a.t. Went like this: A: Triodes are analogous to multi-grid valves with feedback. Just look at the way anode source resistance changes when G2 is connected to the anode. This must mean that triodes have an internal feedback mechanism. B: But that's just an analogy. Where are the predicted effects of feedback on noise, distortion, bandwidth, etc. And why can't we see this "feedback" appearing on an input terminal? A: The feedback is to a Virtual Grid and our model is completely internal to the triode. B: So why is this *feedback*, which has been well described since well before the War? A: You need to study the classics. B: I *own* all of the classics, and neither Archimedes or the New Testament *ever* mentioned feedback inside of triodes. I rest my case. A: You don't have an open mind, and your mother dresses you funny. B: Yeah, well my dad can beat up your dad. It's been good clean fun; no feathers ruffled, no blood spilt; but no minds changed, either. Ahh, religion, All the best, Chris Hornbeck "History consists of truths which in the end turn into lies, while myth consists of lies which finally turn into truths." - Jean Cocteau |
#38
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How do resistors work?
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:54:40 -0500, (Alphonso
M'buto Chaing) wrote: Another is heat. Kinetic energy of the atoms as electrons come and go. And surely the only one applicable to resistors... All the best, Chris Hornbeck "History consists of truths which in the end turn into lies, while myth consists of lies which finally turn into truths." - Jean Cocteau |
#39
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How do resistors work?
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:13:08 +0000, Ian Iveson wrote:
snip That's about as good as an explanation I've got for conduction. I don't think it explains resistance though, without extra info. The strength of the bond cannot alone determine the resistance, although it may determine the voltage necessary for conduction to begin. With metals, is there a voltage limit beneath which they stop conducting? I There has to be. An electron has a fixed negative charge. I would assume that, unless the applied field is sufficient to overcome the attraction of the electron to either its own or another nucleus, that electron won't have sufficient energy to either move away, or if it does so to dislodge another. This suggests that the minimum voltage to produce a current in even the best conductor must be finite. Likewise, when the applied voltage is removed at some point any electrons leaving the material for the positive supply will fall back, as they will have insufficient energy to continue. Perhaps the applied electrical field has to exceed 1.60217733 (49) x 10¯19 coulombs? (The charge carried by a single electron). If it is less than that then I suppose it wouldn't even attract free electrons so no electron "flow" could take place. don't think it can be very big, so I assume some electrons in metals can be moved with hardly any force. I have discussed before with flipper the issue of whether an electron thermally emitted from a valve cathode must result in the emission of a photon but I don't think we reached a conclusion on that. I don't think it does. Dunno... :-) The real issue is how energy is lost. Even if a large force is required, if an electron is moved from one atom to another and ends up at the same energy level without losing anything on the way, then the total energy required is zero. If no energy is lost, then there is no resistance. But energy had to be applied to move the electron in the first place - otherwise it wouldn't have moved. So, even if it remains at the same energy level after the move some energy has been converted into something - probably heat. The amount of energy used to dislodge an electron will depend on the strength of the electron-nucleus bond, won't it? So more energy will be needed and converted into heat in a poor conductor than in a good one. The emission of photons is one possible mechanism for energy loss. Guess so... But why this thing about photons? Are you looking at the possibility of patenting glowing resistors? ;-) Your account ignores the reaction of the metal ions. That is, you consider the electrons but not there "homes", which are subject to equal and opposite forces. That's why I introduced the bucket relay analogy. I True. I did say it was rather simplistic... It is easier to just think of electrons being pushed into atoms of a conductor and dislodging them than have to also think about them being attracted by other atoms and the positive pole of the applied voltage. Doesn't matter anyway as far as I can see. wonder if all that jiggling of matter *is* heat? Are some electrons disturbed from inner levels, which certainly would result in photon emission? These really are genuine questions, but I fear answers may require a large block of knowledge, rather than the odd detail, in my case:-( I'm no atomic physicist! I can't see why inner electrons would come into it unless the applied field was horrendously strong though. As soon as sufficient outer electrons have been stripped the gross charge on the atom is positive, so it is grabbing free electrons as fast as possible to try to equalize things. But what I specifically had in mind is about feedback. My contention is Ah... Not going there. Already been in one of those on here! ;-) -- Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!) Remove blockage to use my email address Web: http://www.nascom.info & http://mixpix.batcave.net |
#40
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How do resistors work?
Ian Iveson wrote: Just wondering. I forgot the obvious answer. The same way as conductors but not well ! It's all about material properties and electrons in the outer shells IIRC. Graham |
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