Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
I must be really dumb here. I want a VU meter to watch while I'm
recording and I either can't find one or can't figure out how to make it work. I've been using Sound Forge 8 as a playground. It does have a little VU meter display but I'd like something that doesn't require that amount of concentration. It has a large bargraph meter, but that's only active on playback (unless making it work when recording is something I haven't figured out - Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. This is for instructive purposes so ultimately I want to be able to tell people how to set it up who are even dumber than I about these things. The idea here is that most DAW programs just don't have a good way of showing people what's going in, so it's hard to explain how to sensibly set the record level. Any suggestions? -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:50:59 GMT, Mike Rivers
wrote: PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. Any suggestions? Mike, I don't know much about Sound Forge, but any plugin you use will inevitably depend upon the signal flow through it. You could instead use a stand-alone meter program, such as those available free from: http://www.darkwood.demon.co.uk/PC/meter.html (Go down to the bottom of that page to find the ones that use decibel scales, rather than the BBC PPM scale. Just download and run on anything from 95 to XP. Don't know about Vista. They read from whatever is set as the default audio input in Windows Control Panel.) Be aware though, that the ability to use a stand-alone application alongside Sound Forge will depend upon whether the drivers for the sound card allow two different programs to read from the audio input simultaneously. Some will, but some won't, in which case you may need to use the stand-alone meter while setting the level, closing the meter and then doing the recording. If you're intending to instruct other people on doing this, that's an extra variable between one person's computer and another, but on the other hand, it's probably a simpler variable than the differences in signal flow through the numerous DAWs available. -Nick |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Nick Brown wrote:
I don't know much about Sound Forge, but any plugin you use will inevitably depend upon the signal flow through it. Be aware though, that the ability to use a stand-alone application alongside Sound Forge will depend upon whether the drivers for the sound card allow two different programs to read from the audio input simultaneously. Some will, but some won't, in which case you may need to use the stand-alone meter while setting the level, closing the meter and then doing the recording. This is a problem I discovered when I found another stand-alone meter. Start it before you start recording with Sound Forge and it hijacks the sound card. Sound Forge's recording window won't open. Start Sound Forge recording first and the VU meter won't open. I've just been playing with the "on line" computer here, not the studio computer, so I'm using just the simple built-in AC97 sound card and it's stock MME (or maybe WDM) driver. I suspect that on a multitrack recording program that allows you to monitor with a plug-in while recording (rather than just a preview), inserting a VU meter plug-in might work. I haven't tried that yet. The idea is to get people accustomed to keeping a half an eye on the meter during an hour-long program where the level is likely to change. The goal is to end up with a finished recording that doesn't need to be level-adjusted throughout before it's suitable for human consumption. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Soundhaspriority wrote:
1. Hardware-proprietary meters. Echo Audio has a routing application with meters that runs alongside the DAW software. This is an obvious advantage because it doesn't have to be routed -- it's just "there." If the interface manufacturer includes such a program, it's another scenario you might consider for the tutorial. Both Sound Forge and Audacity have built-in meters that respond when recording but they're not very obvious. I want someone to be able to glance at the computer screen and see what the meters are doing. As I recall from a quick glance at the Mac program Boom Recorder, it offers an uncluttered screen like this. 2. Some programs do have good meters. Cubase does include a decent display as part of the mixer panels. Cool Edit had good meters, so I would expect the descendant, Adobe Audition, to have them as well. And some don't have good meters. Tracktion has a "Big Meters" button that essentially replaces the tracks with meters. Nothing works as well as a real hardware mechanical meter though. I might just make up a panel with real meters on it and tell 'em to throw a towel over the computer screen so as not to get distracted. This seems like a simple enough thing to make, but I suspect that it's not so simple because of how the drivers talk to other programs (one to a customer without some trickery) but then nobody ever builds the software I want, the way I want it. That's why I so dislike using it when I'm trying to actually be productive. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Nick Brown wrote:
use a stand-alone meter program, such as those available free from: http://www.darkwood.demon.co.uk/PC/meter.html Taking a second look, that's indeed the stand-alone one that I was playing with. Good meters if only I could get them to indicate input level all the time. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On Jul 27, 11:01*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
And some don't have good meters. Tracktion has a "Big Meters" button that essentially replaces the tracks with meters. Nothing works as well as a real hardware mechanical meter though. I might just make up a panel with real meters on it and tell 'em to throw a towel over the computer screen so as not to get distracted. This seems like a simple enough thing to make, but I suspect that it's not so simple because of how the drivers talk to other programs (one to a customer without some trickery) but then nobody ever builds the software I want, the way I want it. That's why I so dislike using it when I'm trying to actually be productive. Well I bought a Dourrough meter when I saw it on a blow out. But there are a couple of free, useful metering plugins I've found useful. Roger Nichols Digital offers the free plugin Inspector (http://www.rndigital.org/nativeplugins.html ) , and SSL makes a very useful free meter called X-ISM. Inspector is among other things multiband so I use it quite a bit as a RTAS, and X-ISM shows peak meters and bit depth and simulates common DACs so you can be aware of inter-sample peaks that might cause distortion on cheaper CD players, etc. I put them as an insert on the Main mix bus as far downstream as possible, and leave the plugin edit window open. The work around for the small plugin windows is a second monitor set to something like 720x480; or I change my laptop screen resolution to this when I'm up and running when I use Inspector as an RTA for live sound. Apparently Roger and the company that markets his plugin have had an ugly falling out, and legal action is involved. But you can still acquire the Inspector plugin for an email address, and the cost is the same for X-ISM at SSL's website. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:01:28 GMT, Mike Rivers
wrote: .. Both Sound Forge and Audacity have built-in meters that respond when recording but they're not very obvious. I want someone to be able to glance at the computer screen and see what the meters are doing. As I recall from a quick glance at the Mac program Boom Recorder, it offers an uncluttered screen like this. .. And some don't have good meters. Tracktion has a "Big Meters" button that essentially replaces the tracks with meters. Nothing works as well as a real hardware mechanical meter though. I might just make up a panel with real meters on it and tell 'em to throw a towel over the computer screen so as not to get distracted. This seems like a simple enough thing to make, but I suspect that it's not so simple because of how the drivers talk to other programs (one to a customer without some trickery) but then nobody ever builds the software I want, the way I want it. That's why I so dislike using it when I'm trying to actually be productive. Check out Dorrough's meters for a standalone unit. They don't have the steamguage types with a needle but they do offer them in your choice of LED bargraphs or arcs |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Steve House wrote:
Check out Dorrough's meters for a standalone unit. They don't have the steamguage types with a needle but they do offer them in your choice of LED bargraphs or arcs An outboard hardware meter is no problem, but it's not the solution I was looking for. I have the Roger Nichols Inspector free plug-in, and though I haven't tried it, I suspect that the problem I was having with the other plug-in meters is systemic. They work on the output, but not on the input, probably because the driver for the audio hardware doesn't support it. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike wrote: just been playing with the "on line" computer here, not the studio computer, so I'm using just the simple built-in AC97 sound card and it's stock MME (or maybe WDM) driver. WOUldn't know, but my question has more to do with wehther folks might be better served to calibrate regular vu meters to digital, i.e. 0vu = -12dbfs, etc. Whatever your house standard happens to be. tHen watch your analog vus. The idea is to get people accustomed to keeping a half an eye on the meter during an hour-long program where the level is likely to change. The goal is to end up with a finished recording that doesn't need to be level-adjusted throughout before it's suitable for human consumption. tHis is something imho used to happen all the time when people did live broadcasting and direct to 2 track, etc. DOn't people use tools for this sort of application that provides this anymore? Yah yah, I know, my MCI console in the truck has nice analog vu meters. Am I that much of a dinosaur? g. Richard webb, replace anything before at with elspider |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:06:01 GMT, Mike Rivers
wrote: I have the Roger Nichols Inspector free plug-in, and though I haven't tried it, I suspect that the problem I was having with the other plug-in meters is systemic. They work on the output, but not on the input, probably because the driver for the audio hardware doesn't support it. Mike, In the case of plugins, it's not because of the audio hardware driver, it's just down to the design of the particular software application as to where in the signal path the plugins do in fact "plug in". Some programs will allow plugins for input metering; for example Cubase's onscreen mixer has dedicated input channels where plugins can be used to show the input level prior to any software gain control, and (from memory) Samplitude can also use plugins to read input levels if you select the "Software FX monitoring" mode. No doubt there are other programs which can do this as well, but there'll also be some that can't. -Nick |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
wrote:
Mike wrote: just been playing with the "on line" computer here, not the studio computer, so I'm using just the simple built-in AC97 sound card and it's stock MME (or maybe WDM) driver. WOUldn't know, but my question has more to do with wehther folks might be better served to calibrate regular vu meters to digital, i.e. 0vu = -12dbfs, etc. Whatever your house standard happens to be. tHen watch your analog vus. This is disussed in the FAQ... it was a big issue back in the early 1990s when people were transitioning from analogue to digital infrastructure. In the analogue world, meters are average-reading. In the digital world, meters are peak-reading. They measure different things, because what you need to know is different information. Consequently, if you use average-reading meters (and VU meters are average-reading) in the digital world, you have to leave substantial headroom, and you don't know where your clipping point is. It is normal practice to set metering so that -20 dBFS is 0 dBVU. The idea is to get people accustomed to keeping a half an eye on the meter during an hour-long program where the level is likely to change. The goal is to end up with a finished recording that doesn't need to be level-adjusted throughout before it's suitable for human consumption. tHis is something imho used to happen all the time when people did live broadcasting and direct to 2 track, etc. DOn't people use tools for this sort of application that provides this anymore? Yes, but they cost good money. And, a lot of people still use outboard meters from guys like Dorrough and RME. However, there are some free metering applications out there. A check on this newsgroup will show that Bob Orban was promoting a free one here not too long ago, and a lot of people liked it. Yah yah, I know, my MCI console in the truck has nice analog vu meters. Am I that much of a dinosaur? g. Yes, but if you're mixing to a digital format you need different meters sitting on top of them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
|
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
|
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
MIke wrote: This is sort of what I was getting at. I watch the analog meters on my Soundcraft console whether I'm recording to analog tape (pretty rare nowadays) or to something digital. I find them to be a much better guide to the mix level than to watch that fast moving bar (but sometimes not fast enough) on a digital peak meter, getting prepared to bang my head when I had an "over." I set the gain on my DAT so that 0 VU corresponds to -18 dBFS (my "house standard") and although there was an occasional full scale blast now and then, it wasn't audible. DOvetails with my experience as well. THink I just described in a previous post my process for calibrating 0 vu to digital metering. An added detriment for me is the fact that there are no audible or tactile digital meters that I"m aware of. This is something imho used to happen all the time when people did live broadcasting and direct to 2 track, etc. DOn't people use tools for this sort of application that provides this anymore? Now people have been conditioned to think that average ear-based-on-speech level isn't important because they can always compress, limit, and normalize, but that they must avoid digital "overs" at all cost lest they look like they don't know how to adjust their gear. With a decent VU meter on real world program material, with proper calibration and reasonable attention to the meter, you won't have overs. Yah yah, that's why a lot of the audio we hear doesn't sound as good as it used to. THey're too busy letting the ears go to sleep and using the processing afterword. Last time I actually got to do any serious audio work which was before Katrina my stuff still sounded good. Modern mastering of pop music (which is where most of today's gear is aimed) is a different thing. The trend is to compress every track and then compress the mix. A standard VU meter doesn't work well with this kind of program material, so a digital peak meter is a better choice. The application that I have in mind here is a broadcast mix with speech and (mostly) acoustic music. YEp, which means I'd want something that acts a lot like a vu. gUess I am a dinosaur in a lot of respects, but the tools and techniques I learned even to adapt to digital recording seem to work for me g. Richard webb, replace anything before at with elspider |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers wrote:
Steve House wrote: Check out Dorrough's meters for a standalone unit. They don't have the steamguage types with a needle but they do offer them in your choice of LED bargraphs or arcs An outboard hardware meter is no problem, but it's not the solution I was looking for. I have the Roger Nichols Inspector free plug-in, and though I haven't tried it, I suspect that the problem I was having with the other plug-in meters is systemic. They work on the output, but not on the input, probably because the driver for the audio hardware doesn't support it. The RME stuff works on whatever you want it to, but that won't help you either :-( |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
|
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
|
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On Jul 27, 4:59*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
wrote: WOUldn't know, but my question has more to do with wehther folks might be better served to calibrate regular vu meters to digital, i.e. 0vu = -12dbfs, etc. *Whatever your house standard happens to be. tHen watch your analog vus. This is sort of what I was getting at. I watch the analog meters on my Soundcraft console whether I'm recording to analog tape (pretty rare nowadays) or to something digital. I find them to be a much better guide to the mix level than to watch that fast moving bar (but sometimes not fast enough) on a digital peak meter, getting prepared to bang my head when I had an "over." I set the gain on my DAT so that 0 VU corresponds to -18 dBFS (my "house standard") and although there was an occasional full scale blast now and then, it wasn't audible. ) Yeah, using your analog console meters is common in the "using Protools as a tape machine" paradigm as well. Works fine as long as you don't calibrate your 0VU levels too hot. If you do a lot of analog consoles will clip at your "tape returns", this is another reason 0VU = -20dBFS seems to be pretty much a standard these days, (besides most newer digital console manufacturers using that standard, from what I've seen anyway....) Even with old 18 bit (16-ish) converters, I noticed a lot of heavily multitracked classical work sounded better on an analog desk when recorded with 0VU calibrated to -20 (as opposed to -18 or even hotter), which was common with Rock/Pop/Hip Hop, etc. Seem a bit ironic in retrospect, that the stuff that actually got soft was less concerned about squeezing out every last bit all the time. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
wrote... Yah yah, I know, my MCI console in the truck has nice analog vu meters. No VU/Peak selectable plasma meters ?!? Am I that much of a dinosaur? g. No comment. ;-) DM |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Frank Stearns wrote:
SoundForge does have what appears to my eye a fairly good VU ballistics emulation option. When working in SF, I use that VU (in extended mode +10 to -30 or some such; way better than +3 to -20) along side the standard peak-reading meters provided, stretched large horz & vert on a second monitor. Don't know if you can run it while recording, though; never recorded in SF. If you're talking about the meter that I have displayed along the right hand edge of my screen (and I think you are) it's only active on playback. If that worked when recording, I'd be happy. Is it possible? Without being specific (hardware, driver, Windows, or application) this seems to be a generic problem with "simple" DAW setups. It doesn't matter to me precisely where the problem lies unless someone solves it. But knowing that it won't go away until something generic changes, it's easier for me to give up hope. g -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On 2008-07-27 said: Yah yah, I know, my MCI console in the truck has nice analog vu meters. Am I that much of a dinosaur? g. I don't think so. What console do you have? Mci 600 series. sHould be paying a visit to Blevins next week or tow for some refurb. Richard webb, replace anything before at with elspider |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Hi Mike,
Mike Rivers wrote: I must be really dumb here. I want a VU meter to watch while I'm recording and I either can't find one or can't figure out how to make it work. I've been using Sound Forge 8 as a playground. It does have a little VU meter display but I'd like something that doesn't require that amount of concentration. It has a large bargraph meter, but that's only active on playback (unless making it work when recording is something I haven't figured out - Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. This is for instructive purposes so ultimately I want to be able to tell people how to set it up who are even dumber than I about these things. The idea here is that most DAW programs just don't have a good way of showing people what's going in, so it's hard to explain how to sensibly set the record level. Any suggestions? I read through most of the posts, and didn't see some points that may be relevant to what you're trying to do. Mainly, what is it you want to meter? If you want to know the signal level into the interface/sound card, meter availability and effectiveness will depend on the interface's drivers. For example, my RME card's drivers provide full I/O peark-reading meters for each stage of their system. If this functionality does not exist at the driver level, chances are that your meter app will only see the output of the interface. From your question, it seems that you want to meter the level ahead of SoundForge, but as you discovered, your drivers don't provide the capability to "split" the signal so that you can drive both a metering app and Soundforge. This is also a driver issue, and may not be resolvable. That leaves the "plugin" option, where as has been pointed out, it's anybody's guess as to the signal flow. For training purposes, it may not matter too much if you acknowledge that each trainee's system may differ with regard to what the meters are showing. My last suggestion would be to use an app for training that has meters you like. I prefer CoolEdit/Audition, which has meters that are easy to grasp at a glance, and the peak hold function makes it very easy to set up a mix. Best, Neil |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Neil Gould wrote:
I read through most of the posts, and didn't see some points that may be relevant to what you're trying to do. Mainly, what is it you want to meter? Sorry if this wasn't clear. I want to meter the record level, the equivalent of the big VU meters on a tape deck. If you want to know the signal level into the interface/sound card, meter availability and effectiveness will depend on the interface's drivers. For example, my RME card's drivers provide full I/O peark-reading meters for each stage of their system. If this functionality does not exist at the driver level, chances are that your meter app will only see the output of the interface. This is what I'm discovering. The Lynx L2 series driver incorporates a mixer application (similar to the RME, I suspect) that has a meter next to each fader. Same with the Mackie 1200F, for example. That provides the metering functionality, but it's a visually cluttered interface. If the meters were separate windows that could be placed somewhere else on the screen with the mixer window minimized, that would work. But apparently they're integrated with the mixer application. Whatever is driving the meters in the mixer application isn't available to external programs like the various stand-alone or plug-in meters that have been mentioned here. That leaves the "plugin" option, where as has been pointed out, it's anybody's guess as to the signal flow. For training purposes, it may not matter too much if you acknowledge that each trainee's system may differ with regard to what the meters are showing. It matters if some have systems that can be metered and others don't. g My last suggestion would be to use an app for training that has meters you like. I prefer CoolEdit/Audition, which has meters that are easy to grasp at a glance, and the peak hold function makes it very easy to set up a mix. That would work if I was giving a lecture, but when setting up someone to, let's say, produce a radio program (OK, that's exactly the application) I'd prefer not to say "you have to buy this program because it has meters" if they already have a program that provides the recording and editing functions. This wouldn't be necessary, of course, if the mixers that these people are likely to own (or are withing their budget) had decent metering - meters with sufficient resolution, reasonable dynamic response, and easily visible. See Richard's comment about his MCI console. But few mixers these days come with a meter bridge that puts the meters up where you can see them. [soapbox mode ON] This is one more example of how equipment designers are leaving important functions (or functions that they don't think are important) to "someone else" so they can sell their product at an attractive point. "Someone else" is here looking for a solution. [soapbox mode OFF] -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
The recording window in sf is a fixed size. If you lower your screen resolution it will fill more of the screen. For example, @ 1280 x 1024 the record dialog is somewhere around a quarter of the screen but at 1024 x 768 it fills a bit under half the screen. I use ultramon, a multi monitor utility that lives in the sys tray and enables on to change the display profile with 2 clicks. Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10 @/ |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Neil Gould wrote:
Well, now this sounds like a conflict of purposes! ;-) Is it better to have a metering plug-in if you don't know what it's metering? If you have a meter somewhere in the recording chain, you can calibrate the system so that the meter is meaningful wherever it is. That works only if, when you make a level adjustment, it's ahead of the meter, of course, but that'll work. [soapbox mode ON] This is one more example of how equipment designers are leaving important functions (or functions that they don't think are important) to "someone else" When was this otherwise? My Ampex MM1200 had input level pots so that it could be matched to a fairly wide range of console or mic preamp outputs. So did my TASCAM 80-8, and so does my DAT recorder. My Zoom H2, on the other hand, has a record level control, but it won't keep the input stage from clipping, even though the meters are reading on scale. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers writes:
Frank Stearns wrote: SoundForge does have what appears to my eye a fairly good VU ballistics emulation option. When working in SF, I use that VU (in extended mode +10 to -30 or some such; way better than +3 to -20) along side the standard peak-reading meters provided, stretched large horz & vert on a second monitor. Don't know if you can run it while recording, though; never recorded in SF. If you're talking about the meter that I have displayed along the right hand edge of my screen (and I think you are) it's only active on Probably. You can also "tear off" this metering and set it outside the SF desktop. playback. If that worked when recording, I'd be happy. Is it possible? Without being specific (hardware, driver, Windows, or application) this seems to be a generic problem with "simple" DAW setups. It doesn't matter to me precisely where the problem lies unless someone solves it. But knowing that it won't go away until something generic changes, it's easier for me to give up hope. g Hmm. Now that I think about it -- and in reading some of the other posts in this thread -- you might be stuck. I seem to remember that recording in SF (the one or two times I tried it) brought up a modal record dialog box. The fact that it was modal probably points to the idea that back in the earlier days underlying DAW compute power was severely limited. Even distracting the CPU to do a little arithmetic for the meter display and then shoving the results out to the video drivers was risky in that it might glitch the recording when those interrupts occurred. This should be easy now, with a modern DAW handling just two channels, but sometimes old software internals don't get changed for a number of reasons. Protools graphics can get pretty complex, and it seems to do a good job managing all that winking and flashing stuff, but it is prioritized. Graphics will get jerky (or even just stop updating) in order to maintain audio processing to the last possible gasp. But maybe someone has a better answer for you using SF. Frank Stearns Mobile Audio -- |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: If you want to know the signal level into the interface/sound card, meter availability and effectiveness will depend on the interface's drivers. For example, my RME card's drivers provide full I/O peark-reading meters for each stage of their system. If this functionality does not exist at the driver level, chances are that your meter app will only see the output of the interface. This is what I'm discovering. The Lynx L2 series driver incorporates a mixer application (similar to the RME, I suspect) that has a meter next to each fader. Same with the Mackie 1200F, for example. That provides the metering functionality, but it's a visually cluttered interface. If the meters were separate windows that could be placed somewhere else on the screen with the mixer window minimized, that would work. But apparently they're integrated with the mixer application. Whatever is driving the meters in the mixer application isn't available to external programs like the various stand-alone or plug-in meters that have been mentioned here. I'm sure you know that these interface meters have functions that are independent of the record level in the application. I don't know what the Lynx mixer app is like, but even though the RME's is "full screen", with so many levels to monitor and set, the individual controls are fairly tiny. That leaves the "plugin" option, where as has been pointed out, it's anybody's guess as to the signal flow. For training purposes, it may not matter too much if you acknowledge that each trainee's system may differ with regard to what the meters are showing. It matters if some have systems that can be metered and others don't. g I'd think the most important factor is that the trainee knows the difference. ;-) My last suggestion would be to use an app for training that has meters you like. I prefer CoolEdit/Audition, which has meters that are easy to grasp at a glance, and the peak hold function makes it very easy to set up a mix. That would work if I was giving a lecture, but when setting up someone to, let's say, produce a radio program (OK, that's exactly the application) I'd prefer not to say "you have to buy this program because it has meters" if they already have a program that provides the recording and editing functions. Well, now this sounds like a conflict of purposes! ;-) Is it better to have a metering plug-in if you don't know what it's metering? This wouldn't be necessary, of course, if the mixers that these people are likely to own (or are withing their budget) had decent metering - meters with sufficient resolution, reasonable dynamic response, and easily visible. See Richard's comment about his MCI console. But few mixers these days come with a meter bridge that puts the meters up where you can see them. I can't speak to that, having not purchased a "mixer" since the AW4416, but I think that is sufficiently new-generation to say that it uses metering in a different way than analog technologies, and for good reason. [soapbox mode ON] This is one more example of how equipment designers are leaving important functions (or functions that they don't think are important) to "someone else" so they can sell their product at an attractive point. "Someone else" is here looking for a solution. [soapbox mode OFF] When was this otherwise? Neil |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: Well, now this sounds like a conflict of purposes! ;-) Is it better to have a metering plug-in if you don't know what it's metering? If you have a meter somewhere in the recording chain, you can calibrate the system so that the meter is meaningful wherever it is. That works only if, when you make a level adjustment, it's ahead of the meter, of course, but that'll work. As long as everything after the meter is linear. But, how would one know other than trial and error and error and error? [soapbox mode ON] This is one more example of how equipment designers are leaving important functions (or functions that they don't think are important) to "someone else" When was this otherwise? My Ampex MM1200 had input level pots so that it could be matched to a fairly wide range of console or mic preamp outputs. So did my TASCAM 80-8, and so does my DAT recorder. My Zoom H2, on the other hand, has a record level control, but it won't keep the input stage from clipping, even though the meters are reading on scale. This speaks to the above issue of knowing what the metering is displaying. If you know that the meter is post-preamp/converter, there won't be much control over a clean input level. That should dictate a certain approach to using the device. I don't know that adding a pot ahead of the input would make matters that much better. Neil |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Frank Stearns wrote:
Hmm. Now that I think about it -- and in reading some of the other posts in this thread -- you might be stuck. I seem to remember that recording in SF (the one or two times I tried it) brought up a modal record dialog box. The fact that it was modal probably points to the idea that back in the earlier days underlying DAW compute power was severely limited. Even distracting the CPU to do a little arithmetic for the meter display and then shoving the results out to the video drivers was risky in that it might glitch the recording when those interrupts occurred. Not being a programmer, I'm not sure what "modal" means in this context, but I do still believe in the old school, that the more you make the computer do that distracts from its primary purpose (at the moment) of recording makes recording more risky. But brute force can give a lot of headroom for such distractions. While all of these programs seem to have some sort of metering while they're recording, not all of them have the same meter for playback. In the analog world, meters are expensive, so they do what they have to do in order to make the same meter work all the time. This should be easy now, with a modern DAW handling just two channels, but sometimes old software internals don't get changed for a number of reasons. There's a certain value to "don't fix it if it isn't broken." I'm just a bit surprised that there aren't hooks that a meter can connect to when the time comes that there's enough horsepower for it. But maybe someone has a better answer for you using SF. I'm not particularly wedded to Sound Forge, that's just an example. But I can't use a pretty meter for record level in Audacity, or Fast Edit, or WaveLab, or Sequoia. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Neil Gould wrote:
If you have a meter somewhere in the recording chain, you can calibrate the system so that the meter is meaningful wherever it is. As long as everything after the meter is linear. But, how would one know other than trial and error and error and error? Measurement. You figure it out, you calibrate it, you leave it that way. This speaks to the above issue of knowing what the metering is displaying. If you know that the meter is post-preamp/converter, there won't be much control over a clean input level. In the case of the Zoom recorder, no there isn't. You have to know that if the "Record Level" control needs to be set below 100 in order to keep the meter below full scale, you'll be clipping. So you use the pad switch first, and then turn the level control up if you need to. In my case study, the DAW will be fed from a hardware mixer. So you determine how much level going in makes the meter read full scale, verify that the A/D converter isn't clipping, and then you can use the mixer's output level to set the record level according to the meter. Now I suppose you're wondering why not just use the meter on the mixer and calibrate the A/D converter to it? Because cheap mixers have crappy meters that aren't very meaningful. Also, cheap mixers don't have meter bridges, so you have to look down at the mixer in order to even see the meter. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers wrote:
I must be really dumb here. I want a VU meter to watch while I'm recording and I either can't find one or can't figure out how to make it work. I've been using Sound Forge 8 as a playground. It does have a little VU meter display but I'd like something that doesn't require that amount of concentration. It has a large bargraph meter, but that's only active on playback (unless making it work when recording is something I haven't figured out - Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. This is for instructive purposes so ultimately I want to be able to tell people how to set it up who are even dumber than I about these things. The idea here is that most DAW programs just don't have a good way of showing people what's going in, so it's hard to explain how to sensibly set the record level. Any suggestions? This helps not-at-all, but Cool Edit 96 had a useable meter. Maybe it was brought forward to Audacity; I don't know. You had to go to the "Options" menu to enable it. -- Les Cargill |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Les Cargill wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: I must be really dumb here. I want a VU meter to watch while I'm recording and I either can't find one or can't figure out how to make it work. I've been using Sound Forge 8 as a playground. It does have a little VU meter display but I'd like something that doesn't require that amount of concentration. It has a large bargraph meter, but that's only active on playback (unless making it work when recording is something I haven't figured out - Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. This is for instructive purposes so ultimately I want to be able to tell people how to set it up who are even dumber than I about these things. The idea here is that most DAW programs just don't have a good way of showing people what's going in, so it's hard to explain how to sensibly set the record level. Any suggestions? This helps not-at-all, but Cool Edit 96 had a useable meter. Maybe it was brought forward to Audacity; I don't know. You had to go to the "Options" menu to enable it. -- Les Cargill Correction: I mean Adobe Audition, not Audacity. A quick browse of the website reveals ... nothing. -- Les Cargill |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Les Cargill wrote:
Les Cargill wrote: Mike Rivers wrote: I must be really dumb here. I want a VU meter to watch while I'm recording and I either can't find one or can't figure out how to make it work. I've been using Sound Forge 8 as a playground. It does have a little VU meter display but I'd like something that doesn't require that amount of concentration. It has a large bargraph meter, but that's only active on playback (unless making it work when recording is something I haven't figured out - Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). PSP has a plug-in meter that looks like it might work, but I don't really understand plug-ins very well and I can't seem to figure out how to apply it to the input, or even if this is possible in Sound Forge. (Sound Forge's documentation is just a little lacking). What do I need to know? Or is there another meter I could be looking at? Ideally, I'd like a stand-alone (not plug-in) version that would work on anything, and of course I want it to be free, at least in a usable trial version. And it would be nice if it would work with Audacity or other free/cheapware. This is for instructive purposes so ultimately I want to be able to tell people how to set it up who are even dumber than I about these things. The idea here is that most DAW programs just don't have a good way of showing people what's going in, so it's hard to explain how to sensibly set the record level. Any suggestions? This helps not-at-all, but Cool Edit 96 had a useable meter. Maybe it was brought forward to Audacity; I don't know. You had to go to the "Options" menu to enable it. -- Les Cargill Correction: I mean Adobe Audition, not Audacity. A quick browse of the website reveals ... nothing. The meter in Audacity can be used to monitor an input, & can, be set to float at any size you want up to full screen, at least in the Windows version. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike RIvers wrote: Now I suppose you're wondering why not just use the meter on the mixer and calibrate the A/D converter to it? Because cheap mixers have crappy meters that aren't very meaningful. Also, cheap mixers don't have meter bridges, so you have to look down at the mixer in order to even see the meter. And there we have it folks. Poor to unusable meters while working. HEy one advantage I had with my little tactile vibratory meter sitting in my shirt pocket g. sEt the level at which it vibrates. sTill for your average sighted person, a situation not made for level monitoring while working. YOu can figure that the person this is aimed at is probably going to be using a cheap mixer feeding a sound card. HEnce MIke's trying to find away around their problem. THank the good Lord for good metering where eyes are likely to see it on my old console g. Even the blind man's eyes can see these from the operating position g. Richard webb, replace anything before at with elspider |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Neil Gould wrote:
Perhaps you are expecting too much for too little. What else is there to look at in the radio post environment -- the wall? The wall is a great place for meters. g And you're right, I'm looking for a shoestring solution to encourage people to set up a system that they can work with, and that won't turn them off because it's too awkward, too complicated, or too expensive. in that environment a meter bridge can be handy, and while they may not be built-in, I have seen monitor displays for some of the cheap mixer/recorder combos, so I'd expect that a better mixer might come with that capability as well. But, as I said earlier, I haven't looked lately. They keep getting worse. I think the problem feeds itself. The meters on the panel aren't useful so people don't use them, so the manufacturers make them worse and worse since they know people aren't using them anyway. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
John Williamson wrote:
The meter in Audacity can be used to monitor an input, & can, be set to float at any size you want up to full screen, at least in the Windows version. I know that Audacity's meter works to monitor the input. It's a little inconvenient since if you want it to indicate without recording, you have to click on it every time. Once you start rolling and stop, you have to click on it again in order to get it to indicate while stopped. I have version 1.2.4 here. Maybe I should look at a newer version to see if it works any differently. Thanks for the tip on floating the meter window. I never noticed that option, but it's helpful. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
Mike Rivers wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: If you have a meter somewhere in the recording chain, you can calibrate the system so that the meter is meaningful wherever it is. As long as everything after the meter is linear. But, how would one know other than trial and error and error and error? Measurement. You figure it out, you calibrate it, you leave it that way. So... we agree. Now I suppose you're wondering why not just use the meter on the mixer and calibrate the A/D converter to it? Because cheap mixers have crappy meters that aren't very meaningful. Also, cheap mixers don't have meter bridges, so you have to look down at the mixer in order to even see the meter. Perhaps you are expecting too much for too little. What else is there to look at in the radio post environment -- the wall? OTOH, a mixer for live recording should be selected based on the features needed for that purpose, and in that environment a meter bridge can be handy, and while they may not be built-in, I have seen monitor displays for some of the cheap mixer/recorder combos, so I'd expect that a better mixer might come with that capability as well. But, as I said earlier, I haven't looked lately. Neil |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
"Les Cargill" wrote ...
This helps not-at-all, but Cool Edit 96 had a useable meter. Maybe it was brought forward to Audacity; I don't know. As an ongoing user of both Syntrillium CoolEdit and Adobe Audition, I can confirm that the excellent meter feature remains. You had to go to the "Options" menu to enable it. The meter is selectable (along with over a dozen other window elements) via the "View" drop-down menu. Many of the windows elements are re-sizable and/or re-positionable. |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Software VU Meter
On 2008-07-29, Mike Rivers wrote:
I know that Audacity's meter works to monitor the input. It's a little inconvenient since if you want it to indicate without recording, you have to click on it every time. Once you start rolling and stop, you have to click on it again in order to get it to indicate while stopped. I have version 1.2.4 here. Maybe I should look at a newer version to see if it works any differently. That seems to show different things by different colours - dark and pale. (Plus IIRC there's the peak hold and the clip indicator on the end). What do the different colour densities show? Slower and faster acting? Percieved average and peak? Though dark is always somewhere below pale. - Richard |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Phase Meter / Difference Meter | Pro Audio | |||
Db Meter | Car Audio | |||
VU Meter (Software) | Tech | |||
software for an audio control sa-3055 spl meter | Car Audio | |||
[OT] Sound measure software with equivalent sound level meter? | Pro Audio |