[Jacques E. Bouchard]

I have a questipon that no doubt many of you will find naive, but please
bear with me as I'm learning along here.

I have two shotgun microphones (condenser) that I use for video shoots.
Below are their specs.

Chinese knock-off:
Frequency responce: 100-16,000 Hz
Output impedence: 1K-ohm short distance, 2.3 K-ohm long distance
Power supply: DC 1.5v (AA battery)
Sensibility: -45dB short distance, -38dB long distance

Azdem SGM-1x:
Frequency Response: 80-18,000Hz
Sensitivity: Super Cardioid -41dB re 1V/Pa
Impedance: 680 Ohms @ 1Khz
Max. SPL Input Level: 110dB
Signal to Noise Ratio: 65dB
Dynamic Range: 80dB
Battery Type: AAA (1.5V)

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects using a 1/8" phono
plug. When I use it with a prosumer camcorder or a laptop (both of which
use phono mic connectors), it works beautifully. However, if I try using
the Azden (either with the XLR-to-phono cable, or with an adapter), the
sound barely registers.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro camcorder's XLR connectors
yields great results.

Where is the difference here? I looked at the specs but couldn't see
anything. Is this an inherent difference between XLR and phono
connectors, and if so does that mean my Chinese KO isn't true XLR and
can't ever be used as such? And what do I need to do (other than
amplyfying through a mixer) to use my Azden with the phono jacks on my
laptop or camcorder?

Thansk for your invaluable advice.


jaybee

[Richard Crowley]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
I have a questipon that no doubt many of you will find naive, but please
bear with me as I'm learning along here.

I have two shotgun microphones (condenser) that I use for video shoots.
Below are their specs.

Chinese knock-off:
Frequency responce: 100-16,000 Hz
Output impedence: 1K-ohm short distance, 2.3 K-ohm long distance
Power supply: DC 1.5v (AA battery)
Sensibility: -45dB short distance, -38dB long distance

Azdem SGM-1x:
Frequency Response: 80-18,000Hz
Sensitivity: Super Cardioid -41dB re 1V/Pa
Impedance: 680 Ohms @ 1Khz
Max. SPL Input Level: 110dB
Signal to Noise Ratio: 65dB
Dynamic Range: 80dB
Battery Type: AAA (1.5V)

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects
using a 1/8" phono plug.

Does that mean that the Chinese KO has a native XLR
and you use an XLR to 3.5mm mini-phone plug adapter?

Or does it mean that the Chinese KO has a 3.5mm
mini-phone native plug, and you use a 3.5mm to XLR
adapter?

When I use it with a prosumer camcorder or a laptop
(both of which use phono mic connectors), it works
beautifully. However, if I try using the Azden (either
with the XLR-to-phono cable, or with an adapter), the
sound barely registers.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro camcorder's
XLR connectors yields great results.

So it sounds like the Azden mic works OK, but your adapter
and/or cable are suspect.

How does the Chinese KO work into the pro camcorder's
XLR inputs?

Where is the difference here? I looked at the specs but
couldn't see anything.

The specs would seem to indicate that the Azden is actually
MORE sensitive (=higher output for equal sound) than the
Chinese KO.

Is this an inherent difference between XLR and phono
connectors,

There is an inherent difference between single-ended
(unbalanced) outputs and balanced (differential) outputs.
The Azden is likely a true (or at lease quasi) balanced
output. But no clue what the Chinese KO mic is without
some additional info.

and if so does that mean my Chinese KO isn't true XLR
and can't ever be used as such?

Maybe, but we can't tell with so little info.

And what do I need to do (other than amplyfying through
a mixer) to use my Azden with the phono jacks on my
laptop or camcorder?

Can you try using the Chinese KO cable/adapter/whatever
with the Azden? Else I'd try some other cable/adapter.
You seem to have shown that the Azden mic is working OK.

PS: "sensibility" is something you find (or not) in humans.
"sensitivity" is a common spec for microphones. :-)

The typical mic connectors used in consumer camcorders
and computers is a 3.5mm (aka 1/8 inch) mini-phone
(not "phono"). "phono" refers to the kind of thing you see
on line-level cables (and originally on phonograph turntables).

These are "phono" connectors....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:R...28photo%29.jpg
These are "phone" connectors (the mini variety)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Small_jack_plugs.jpg

[rboy]

On Jul 24, 3:15*pm, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote:

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects using a 1/8" phono
plug. When I use it with a prosumer camcorder or a laptop (both of which
use phono mic connectors), it works beautifully. However, if I try using
the Azden (either with the XLR-to-phono cable, or with an adapter), the
sound barely registers.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro camcorder's XLR connectors *
yields great results.

Can you mono out your mixer to test if it's out of phase?

Based on my own experience with this (as opposed to technical genius)
I'd say the Azden XLR (3 wires) adapted into the stereo 1/8" input (2
wires) is either being adapted with a piece that doesn't quite line up
with the camera's input so the signal isn't being received right, or
it's being received solidly but it's ending up putting signals on the
L & R that are partially out of phase with each other from the way the
adapter is lining up. This happened to me and kicked my butt. If
you can upload the signals from both mics into a computer and the
signal drops when you mono it out and sounds OK but a little weird in
stereo, this is probably what's happening. If you taker either side
by itself and play it through both channels and it's the loudest of
all, then that's the case for sure.

Try those and let us know. : )

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in news:6esitrF8lba2U1
@mid.individual.net:

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects
using a 1/8" phono plug.

Does that mean that the Chinese KO has a native XLR
and you use an XLR to 3.5mm mini-phone plug adapter?

The Chinese KO came with a cable that has an XLR connector at the mic
end, and a mini-phono connector at the other end.

So it sounds like the Azden mic works OK, but your adapter
and/or cable are suspect.

But the Chinese KO works fine with its own XLR-to-mini-phone cable. I
haven't tried it with a true XLR-XLR cable.

Can you try using the Chinese KO cable/adapter/whatever
with the Azden? Else I'd try some other cable/adapter.
You seem to have shown that the Azden mic is working OK.

I tried the Azden mic both with the Chinese XLR-mini-phone cable, and an
XLR-XLR cable with an adapter. In both cases, my camcorder and laptop
could not record a signal strong enough to register (save for a scratchy
whisper).

PS: "sensibility" is something you find (or not) in humans.
"sensitivity" is a common spec for microphones. :-)

Yah, blame the "Engrish" specs included with the Chinese KO. I just
transcribed them without paying attention.

Although the mic may weep uncontrollably if you point out its flaws, I
don't know...

Both mics work fine using their supplied connectors (mini-phone with the
Chinese KO, XLR with the Azden). I still need to do sound tests with the
Azden, but unless I find a solution I'll have to lug the big pro camera
just to record sound...



jaybee

[Scott Dorsey]

Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in news:6esitrF8lba2U1
:

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects
using a 1/8" phono plug.

Does that mean that the Chinese KO has a native XLR
and you use an XLR to 3.5mm mini-phone plug adapter?

The Chinese KO came with a cable that has an XLR connector at the mic
end, and a mini-phono connector at the other end.

What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Just because it's the correct pinout for one mike does not mean that it
is correct for another. The whole stupid unbalanced consumer 1/8"
standard is the problem.

You may have one leg of the output left floating... you may have only
leg of the microphone driven to save costs on the Azden cheapie, and
the unbalanced cable is connected to the other leg. You may have
the output of the Azden saturating because of the DC offset on the
"plug-in-power" input. All of these can cause symptoms like you are
describing. The ohmmeter will tell you what you have and it is a start
toward figuring out what you need.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in :

What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Pin 1 goes to ground (bottom segment of the mini-phone plug), pin 2 goes to the
middle and tip segments. Pin 3 is not connected.


jaybee

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 25 Jul 2008 03:11:24 GMT, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote:

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in :

What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Pin 1 goes to ground (bottom segment of the mini-phone plug), pin 2 goes to the
middle and tip segments. Pin 3 is not connected.


jaybee

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 25 Jul 2008 03:11:24 GMT, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote:

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in :

What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Pin 3 is not connected.

Sounds like The Case of the Dog Barking in the Night.

All good fortune,
Chris Hornbeck

[Richard Crowley]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote...
(Scott Dorsey) wrote :
What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Pin 1 goes to ground (bottom segment of the mini-phone plug),
pin 2 goes to the middle and tip segments.

Suitable for sending a single-ended output to both L&R
channels of a typical consumer camcorder.

Pin 3 is not connected.

There you go. That kind of cable would work with a single-
ended output (perhaps the Chinese KO mic?) but unlikely
to work with a real balanced output mic (presumably like
the Azden).

[Mike Dobony]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:52:26 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
I have a questipon that no doubt many of you will find naive, but please
bear with me as I'm learning along here.

I have two shotgun microphones (condenser) that I use for video shoots.
Below are their specs.

Chinese knock-off:
Frequency responce: 100-16,000 Hz
Output impedence: 1K-ohm short distance, 2.3 K-ohm long distance
Power supply: DC 1.5v (AA battery)
Sensibility: -45dB short distance, -38dB long distance

Azdem SGM-1x:
Frequency Response: 80-18,000Hz
Sensitivity: Super Cardioid -41dB re 1V/Pa
Impedance: 680 Ohms @ 1Khz
Max. SPL Input Level: 110dB
Signal to Noise Ratio: 65dB
Dynamic Range: 80dB
Battery Type: AAA (1.5V)

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects
using a 1/8" phono plug.

Does that mean that the Chinese KO has a native XLR
and you use an XLR to 3.5mm mini-phone plug adapter?

Or does it mean that the Chinese KO has a 3.5mm
mini-phone native plug, and you use a 3.5mm to XLR
adapter?

When I use it with a prosumer camcorder or a laptop
(both of which use phono mic connectors), it works
beautifully. However, if I try using the Azden (either
with the XLR-to-phono cable, or with an adapter), the
sound barely registers.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro camcorder's
XLR connectors yields great results.

So it sounds like the Azden mic works OK, but your adapter
and/or cable are suspect.

How does the Chinese KO work into the pro camcorder's
XLR inputs?

Where is the difference here? I looked at the specs but
couldn't see anything.

The specs would seem to indicate that the Azden is actually
MORE sensitive (=higher output for equal sound) than the
Chinese KO.


There is a possibility her that the Azden is overpowering the inputs of the
prosumer camcorder and the laptop. It may need a pad to knock down the
signal.

Mike D.

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Dobony" wrote...
There is a possibility her that the Azden is overpowering the inputs of
the
prosumer camcorder and the laptop. It may need a pad to knock down the
signal.

He was complaining about exactly the opposite.

He is using cables/adaptors that appear to not be
wired for his requirements.

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in
:

He is using cables/adaptors that appear to not be
wired for his requirements.

So how would I make a cable to use the Azden with a consumer camcorder?


jaybee

[Arny Krueger]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote in
message
5.252
I have a questipon that no doubt many of you will find
naive, but please bear with me as I'm learning along here.

I have two shotgun microphones (condenser) that I use for
video shoots. Below are their specs.

Chinese knock-off:
Frequency responce: 100-16,000 Hz
Output impedence: 1K-ohm short distance, 2.3 K-ohm long
distance
Power supply: DC 1.5v (AA battery)
Sensibility: -45dB short distance, -38dB long distance

Azdem SGM-1x:
Frequency Response: 80-18,000Hz
Sensitivity: Super Cardioid -41dB re 1V/Pa
Impedance: 680 Ohms @ 1Khz
Max. SPL Input Level: 110dB
Signal to Noise Ratio: 65dB
Dynamic Range: 80dB
Battery Type: AAA (1.5V)

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects
using a 1/8" phono plug. When I use it with a prosumer
camcorder or a laptop (both of which use phono mic
connectors), it works beautifully

I know that laptops provide a bias voltage on their mic inputs. I would
imagine that consumer camcorders do the same.

. However, if I try using the Azden (either with the XLR-to-phono cable, or
with an adapter), the sound barely registers.

Mic inputs that provide bias voltage are designed to be used with
microphones that also have somewhat higher output. Probably a little
insensitive for use with a regular mic.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro
camcorder's XLR connectors yields great results.

That is the environment that it is designed for.

Where is the difference here? I looked at the specs but
couldn't see anything.

That's because the spec sheets are incomplete.

I don't see a spec that relates loudness (SPL) to voltage output.

Not he

http://www.azdencorp.com/shop/custom...8&cat=0&page=1

And certainly not for your nameless wonder-mic for which I have no spec
sheet at all! :-(

Here's a typical spec of the kind that is missing:

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Produc...M58-CN_content

Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz Open Circuit Voltage)
-54.5 dBV/Pa (1.85 mV)
1 Pa = 94 dB SPL

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:15:11 -0400, Jacques E. Bouchard wrote
(in article 2):

Both have XLR connectors, but the Chinese KO connects using a 1/8" phono
plug. When I use it with a prosumer camcorder or a laptop (both of which use
phono mic connectors), it works beautifully. However, if I try using the
Azden (either with the XLR-to-phono cable, or with an adapter), the sound
barely registers.

On the other hand, using the Azden with my pro camcorder's XLR connectors
yields great results.

Where is the difference here? I looked at the specs but couldn't see
anything. Is this an inherent difference between XLR and phono connectors,
and if so does that mean my Chinese KO isn't true XLR and can't ever be used
as such? And what do I need to do (other than amplyfying through a mixer) to
use my Azden with the phono jacks on my laptop or camcorder?

Mono mic into stereo input?

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Richard Crowley]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
So how would I make a cable to use the Azden with a consumer camcorder?

XLR pin 1 (mic ground/shield) to mini-phone sleeve (camcorder ground)
XLR pin 2 (mic balanced + side) to mini-phone tip (camcorder left channel)
XLR pin 2 (mic balanced + side) to mini-phone ring (camcorder right channel)
XLR pin 3 (mic balanced - side) to mini-phone sleeve (camcorder ground)

Ideally, you would use a capacitor to block the "plug-in power"
from the camcorder from getting into the microphone.

Circuit diagrams on my website...
http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm

[Scott Dorsey]

In article 4,
Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in :

What is the pinout of this cable? Check it out with an ohmmeter and
make sure.

Pin 1 goes to ground (bottom segment of the mini-phone plug), pin 2 goes to the
middle and tip segments. Pin 3 is not connected.

This will work for a microphone that has a transformerless output that
drives pin 2, or drives both pins.

It will not work for a microphone that has a transformer output and it
will not work for a microphone that drives pin 3 only.

Try adding a jumper between pin 3 and pin 1 on the XLR connector. If the
issue is that the output is transformer-isolated, this will provide a
reference ground for the other side of the transformer.

If this does not work, remove the jumper, and move the line on pin 2 to
pin 3. This will work if the microphone drives only pin 3.

If you want to go between a balanced output and an unbalanced input and
have it work at all times in every configuration, you need a transformer
or some active electronics. Otherwise you are stuck with a special cable
for each configuration.

Unbalanced 1/8" inputs are evil. Just say no.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in
:

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
So how would I make a cable to use the Azden with a consumer
camcorder?

XLR pin 1 (mic ground/shield) to mini-phone sleeve (camcorder ground)
XLR pin 2 (mic balanced + side) to mini-phone tip (camcorder left
channel) XLR pin 2 (mic balanced + side) to mini-phone ring (camcorder
right channel) XLR pin 3 (mic balanced - side) to mini-phone sleeve
(camcorder ground)

Ideally, you would use a capacitor to block the "plug-in power"
from the camcorder from getting into the microphone.

Circuit diagrams on my website...
http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm

Thanks Richard, very useful tip.


jaybee