[Matt Faunce]

I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to imitate 15 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb electronically helps to create the illusion of distance, but there seems to be more needed to complete the picture. It seems to help if I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB with a quality of 0.4. Does this match any proven data on the quality of sound over distances? Are there any charts or formulas available displaying this phenomenon? Does distance also result in a natural compression?

Even if it's impossible to complete the picture, I'm interested in what measurable effects happen in a natural acoustic setting.

Matt

[Scott Dorsey]

In article 8445150.282.1320758899628.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbmh5,
Matt Faunce wrote:
I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to imitate 1=
5 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb electronically helps to =
create the illusion of distance, but there seems to be more needed to compl=
ete the picture.

This is because the sound is radiating out of the guitar in all directions.
In a large hall, the sound from all the different directions mixes together in
the room.

When you spotmike, you're only getting a tiny picture of the whole sound, in
one direction.

It seems to help if I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB with a=
quality of 0.4. Does this match any proven data on the quality of sound ov=
er distances? Are there any charts or formulas available displaying this ph=
enomenon?

No, this problem is resulting from the radiation pattern of the source, and
therefore it will be different with different sources. Your guitar won't be
the same as someone else's, and the mike position will change things too
because it will affect the particular direction you're getting the sample in.

Does distance also result in a natural compression?

Sort of. Close-miking tends to exaggerate dynamics, that can affect things.

Even if it's impossible to complete the picture, I'm interested in what mea=
surable effects happen in a natural acoustic setting.

Sound comes out of your guitar in all directions. The stuff coming out
of the front has more high frequency material than the stuff coming out
of the back. And the stuff coming out of the back is partially blocked
by your body. But the radiation pattern is spherical and the sound from
all directions comes out and strikes all parts of the room and bounces
around.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Matt Faunce]

On Tuesday, November 8, 2011 8:54:58 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article 8445150.282.1320758899628.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbmh5,
Matt Faunce wrote:
I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to imitate 1=
5 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb electronically helps to =
create the illusion of distance, but there seems to be more needed to compl=
ete the picture.

This is because the sound is radiating out of the guitar in all directions.
In a large hall, the sound from all the different directions mixes together in
the room.

When you spotmike, you're only getting a tiny picture of the whole sound, in
one direction.

It seems to help if I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB with a=
quality of 0.4. Does this match any proven data on the quality of sound ov=
er distances? Are there any charts or formulas available displaying this ph=
enomenon?

No, this problem is resulting from the radiation pattern of the source, and
therefore it will be different with different sources. Your guitar won't be
the same as someone else's, and the mike position will change things too
because it will affect the particular direction you're getting the sample in.

Does distance also result in a natural compression?

Sort of. Close-miking tends to exaggerate dynamics, that can affect things.

Even if it's impossible to complete the picture, I'm interested in what mea=
surable effects happen in a natural acoustic setting.

Sound comes out of your guitar in all directions. The stuff coming out
of the front has more high frequency material than the stuff coming out
of the back. And the stuff coming out of the back is partially blocked
by your body. But the radiation pattern is spherical and the sound from
all directions comes out and strikes all parts of the room and bounces
around.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ahhh. OK. Now it makes sense. In addition to the trebles there's that soundhole in the front which is mostly bass, so trebles and bass come from the front, but the tones that come from the back and side, which are mostly mids, are disproportionately distanced from the mike (because they radiate outward, not toward the mike, and only hit the mike on reflection.) OK, I thought sound was affected by distance, but you just get a better proportional mix of the whole guitar at a distance.

I don't hear guitars played outside much, unless I'm the one playing it. Then I'm listening from right behind the guitar (and up).

Thank you.

Matt

[Scott Dorsey]

Matt Faunce wrote:
Ahhh. OK. Now it makes sense. In addition to the trebles there's that sound=
hole in the front which is mostly bass, so trebles and bass come from the f=
ront, but the tones that come from the back and side, which are mostly mids=
, are disproportionately distanced from the mike (because they radiate outw=
ard, not toward the mike, and only hit the mike on reflection.) OK, I thoug=
ht sound was affected by distance, but you just get a better proportional m=
ix of the whole guitar at a distance.

Right, and the violin and piano are even stranger.

Electric guitar, most of the highs come from the center of the speaker cone
but as you get out to the edge of the cone it gets more dull, and with an
open back there's lots of midrange coming out of the back.

I don't hear guitars played outside much, unless I'm the one playing it. Th=
en I'm listening from right behind the guitar (and up).

Try putting a mike there, where you'd normally hear it from! It's interesting!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[PStamler]

There's also the matter of proximity effect, if you're using a
directional microphone. At 15" the increase in bass isn't huge, but it
is there; my guess is that's what your bass cut at 74Hz is mostly
compensating for.

As far as reverb is concerned, if you put some delay before the reverb
it will add a greater sense of depth. Start with about 13 milliseconds
and experiment.

Peace,
Paul

[Matt Faunce]

On Tuesday, November 8, 2011 1:26:32 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Matt Faunce wrote:
Ahhh. OK. Now it makes sense. In addition to the trebles there's that sound=
hole in the front which is mostly bass, so trebles and bass come from the f=
ront, but the tones that come from the back and side, which are mostly mids=
, are disproportionately distanced from the mike (because they radiate outw=
ard, not toward the mike, and only hit the mike on reflection.) OK, I thoug=
ht sound was affected by distance, but you just get a better proportional m=
ix of the whole guitar at a distance.

Right, and the violin and piano are even stranger.

Electric guitar, most of the highs come from the center of the speaker cone
but as you get out to the edge of the cone it gets more dull, and with an
open back there's lots of midrange coming out of the back.

I don't hear guitars played outside much, unless I'm the one playing it. Th=
en I'm listening from right behind the guitar (and up).

Try putting a mike there, where you'd normally hear it from! It's interesting!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I was after was the focused sound that happens at a distance, where all the tones come together. The bass does lessen when I move the mike toward the back end, away from the soundhole, but staying 15" to the plane of the soundboard. It's not the same as sitting in the 10th row in a hall. (Unfortunately I have no idea what I sound like playing my guitar from that position.) So far I tried angles catching the front and side of guitar, once from above and once from below, but I haven't tried catching above and behind yet. I'll compare all these to having the mike straight in front but with the bass rolled out a bit. I'm experimenting.

I had two phenomena in my head when I first posted. One, years ago when I first played on a concert stage it was for a studio class in college (you play a few pieces and then everybody critiques you) and my teacher and colleagues told me I wasn't projecting my bass notes, something they didn't notice when I played for them up close. So from that I thought about earphones and how the bass drops of precipitously when you distance them from your ears. I'm not sure what principle(s) is (are) at work here. Maybe there are two different principles at work and I shouldn't conflate them.

Matt

[Matt Faunce]

On Tuesday, November 8, 2011 2:00:17 PM UTC-5, PStamler wrote:
There's also the matter of proximity effect, if you're using a
directional microphone. At 15" the increase in bass isn't huge, but it
is there; my guess is that's what your bass cut at 74Hz is mostly
compensating for.

As far as reverb is concerned, if you put some delay before the reverb
it will add a greater sense of depth. Start with about 13 milliseconds
and experiment.

Peace,
Paul

I use omnis. I've just had better luck with them. I'm sure you more experienced guys can use cardiods with maybe better effect, but... Maybe the omnis I tried were better quality than the cardiods I've tried, but here I am, with my omnis...

I'll try the little bit of delay. Thanks.

Matt

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/8/2011 6:30 PM, Matt Faunce wrote:

I was after was the focused sound that happens at a
distance, where all the tones come together.

I wouldn't call that "focused." It's more like "blended."
That's the trouble with talking about sound.

So far I
tried angles catching the front and side of guitar, once
from above and once from below, but I haven't tried
catching above and behind yet.

For a while, maybe 15-20 years ago, people were enthused
with placing the mic next to the player's right ear,
pointing downward kind on skimming the top and catching some
of the sound from the back and side. I always preferred the
clearer and better defined sound that I got from a mic 6-12
inches back from the instrument pointing toward the top
where the neck meets the body. A second mic on the top
behind and slightly below the bridge could be added for some
more "wood" tone.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Matt Faunce" wrote in message
news:8445150.282.1320758899628.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbmh5...

I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to imitate
15 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb electronically helps
to create the illusion of distance, but there seems to be more needed to
complete the picture. It seems to help if I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB
with a quality of 0.4. Does this match any proven data on the quality of
sound over distances?

If your mic is directional, e.g. cardiod, then the proximity effect adds
bass.

Are there any charts or formulas available displaying this phenomenon?

Charts quantifying proximity effect are provided by some manufacturers for
some mics. Proximity effect varies from mic to mic so generic charts are
weak approximations at best.

Does distance also result in a natural compression?

Close micing gives music what I think of as being a "hot" sound that might
be perceived as being extra dynamic.

If you are recording, you need to also record a separate track of room
ambience and mix the two together as desired to produce the sound you like.

[Scott Dorsey]

Matt Faunce wrote:
I was after was the focused sound that happens at a distance, where all the=
tones come together. The bass does lessen when I move the mike toward the =
back end, away from the soundhole, but staying 15" to the plane of the soun=
dboard. It's not the same as sitting in the 10th row in a hall. (Unfortunat=
ely I have no idea what I sound like playing my guitar from that position.)=

Find a good room and go there! There are lots of great rooms in hidden places.
Hallways, office atriums, lecture halls. Your goal is to find them!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[polymod]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Matt Faunce wrote:
I was after was the focused sound that happens at a distance, where all
the=
tones come together. The bass does lessen when I move the mike toward the
=
back end, away from the soundhole, but staying 15" to the plane of the
soun=
dboard. It's not the same as sitting in the 10th row in a hall.
(Unfortunat=
ely I have no idea what I sound like playing my guitar from that
position.)=

Find a good room and go there! There are lots of great rooms in hidden
places.
Hallways, office atriums, lecture halls. Your goal is to find them!

And don't forget garages!



Poly

[gjsmo]

On Nov 9, 10:59*am, "polymod" wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

...

Matt Faunce wrote:
I was after was the focused sound that happens at a distance, where all
the=
tones come together. The bass does lessen when I move the mike toward the
=
back end, away from the soundhole, but staying 15" to the plane of the
soun=
dboard. It's not the same as sitting in the 10th row in a hall.
(Unfortunat=
ely I have no idea what I sound like playing my guitar from that
position.)=

Find a good room and go there! *There are lots of great rooms in hidden
places.
Hallways, office atriums, lecture halls. *Your goal is to find them!

And don't forget garages!



Poly

And attics...

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Matt Faunce wrote:

I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to
imitate 15 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb
electronically helps to create the illusion of distance,

no.

but there
seems to be more needed to complete the picture. It seems to help if
I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB with a quality of 0.4. Does this
match any proven data on the quality of sound over distances?

Yes, 15 inches is close enough for proxity effect to matter, assuming
directional microphones are used.

Are
there any charts or formulas available displaying this phenomenon?
Does distance also result in a natural compression?

No, but the room reverb addition reduces the crest factor.

Even if it's impossible to complete the picture, I'm interested in
what measurable effects happen in a natural acoustic setting.

That is a very different question. On what do wo +1 to all that Scott said +
if you want to fake a close miked guitar in a big room - a slight
modification of what you asked about - then it takes 1 pair 4 feet from the
guitar and one 10+ feet from the guitar. You will then have a reasonable
"spacious sound starter kit", but you need to play with time, ie. how much
to delay the ambience pair in milliseconds, 22 comes to mind as a good place
to start experimenting and quite possibly with adding different verbs to the
close (try "none" or "early reflections only", if available, first)and far
pairs (of microphones).

Your mileage will vary with skill, luck, weather, guitar, actual room,
microphones (I used a bright pair close and a mellow pair far when I used
the suggested ploy back in the days of analog and tape-recorder based echo
played back while recording.) and probably something else too. Which is to
say that I made it work in an avantgarde, ie. unreal, context, you may or
may not so do.

If you want the real stuff, go for a real room, add churches and community
centres in church contexts to the suggested locations to look for as well as
the local school.

Matt

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[cedricl[_2_]]

On Nov 8, 6:28*am, Matt Faunce wrote:
I close mike my guitar at 15 inches in my living room, but try to imitate 15 feet in a medium size hall. I know adding reverb electronically helps to create the illusion of distance, but there seems to be more needed to complete the picture. It seems to help if I lower the eq at 74Hz by 3.5dB with a quality of 0.4. Does this match any proven data on the quality of sound over distances? Are there any charts or formulas available displaying this phenomenon? Does distance also result in a natural compression?

Even if it's impossible to complete the picture, I'm interested in what measurable effects happen in a natural acoustic setting.

Matt

So, combining at lot of responses, it seems you might want to use an
omni mic(s) for close micing and then use a tight cardiod pair as far
away as the person sitting in the audience that you're trying to
emulate.