Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

Ben,

Be prepared for a great variety of answers. The most vigorous replies will
be from those who say that all wire sounds the same, so long as its size is
sufficient, and that those who say different are totally wrong. There may
or may net be replies from those who feel that "audiophile" wire (made and
sold for audio) will sound better. As for me I believe some of the audio
wire sounds better, but not by much, and price is not necessarily a guide.
Some years ago I had a friend with a magnificent sounding system who used
12/3 romex, swearing it was the best wire he had found. The hardware store
is not a bad route. My only caveat is that solid core wire can break if
flexed too often.

Wylie Williams
The Speaker and Stereo Store

"Ben Hanson" wrote in message
...
Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

Ben,

I think we could use a little more information on your intended
application. Would this application be for a static home listening
environment, or would it be for live sound applications where you
would be continually plugging/unplugging connections?

For a static environment, both stranded and solid core wire would be
acceptable and work well sonically. The stranded wire is more
flexible, especially if you need to maneuver it in tight quarters.
The solid wire is basically "bent" into position, but once in place it
stays there. For 3-wire cable, you can ignore the extra wire, but be
sure to clip and dress that third wire so it can not cause a short.
Make sure the Speakon connector will accept the diameter of wire you
select, i.e., that the cable sleeve will clear the opening on the
connector. Pay attention when making signal and ground connections at
either end of the cable so these connections are not inadvertantly
reversed. Also, provide some type of strain relief when using solid
core wire to avoid potential stress on the connections - for example,
form the cable into a broad s-shape prior to entering the Speakon
connector so there is some play in the cable.

For live-sound applications, you will need to worry about multiple
connection-disconnection cycles, spooling and unspooling, people and
equipment landing on top of the cable, and people tripping on the
cable. Avoid zip-cord stranded wire for this application (too
fragile). Also avoid solid-core Romex wire (whether 2- or
3-conductor) (too inflexible). Instead, look for cable in a round
jacket at either 10 or 12 gauge, 2 or 3-wire that can take a beating
(e.g., orange or green heavy-duty outdoor extension cords with plugs
cut off). Other comments above also apply. For pro-use, you can also
try Markertek (http://www.markertek.com/) or Swee****er
(http://www.swee****er.com/index.php) for speaker cable (with Speakon
connectors as well).

Best regards,

Terry

Ben Hanson wrote:

Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

Ben Hanson wrote:

Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.


There are people in the cable business who are pulling your leg, but he is
not one of them.

Both HD and Lowes carry 12 AWG "speaker cable" that'll work just fine for
you. (I'm not sure what they have in 10 AWG.) It runs about 30 cents a foot,
I think, and they'll cut to length. The Lowes is a bit more flexible, and
it's easier to see the markings to make sure you hook things up in phase.
Other than that, they're a horse apiece--as is most so-called speaker cable,
whatever the price.

bob

__________________________________________________ _______________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available.
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&...ave/direct/01/

On 10 Apr 2004 04:56:49 GMT, "Ben Hanson"
wrote:

Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

That is correct.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there really
a difference?

There is no audible difference.

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach?

Either will do, although heavy-gauge solid-core is inflexible, and
should only be used for a fixed installation which will not be
disconnected very often (if at all).

And lastly, if you can only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Yes, or you can parallel it with one of the other wires - just make
sure it's the same one on both ends! :-)

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

It works just fine, and is *much* cheaper than cable sold specifically
for audio use. Bottom line - wire is wire. Don't let the sales clerks
in the audio stores tell you different.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Ben Hanson wrote:

Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

12 gauge is fine for most normal 6-8 ohm loads. You do want to keep it
away from electrical wires. If you must cross them, do it at 90 degrees
or keep the parallel distance to less than a foot or two.

You can also use a roll of 12 gauge electrical wire, though you'll
have to gently place the ends in a vise and a drill motor and wind
them together. 1 full turn per foot is fine. Heat shrink tubing works
well to keep this from unravelling. Zip ties work as well.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there really
a difference?

All commercial installs that I know of use heavy gauge wire, preferably
run in its own conduit or seperately. Speaker wire isn't rated for
pulling with AC, though, while electrical wire is. The compromise
is to run it with the cable TV/phone/low voltage stuff.

For that "slick" look, terminate the wires at a 1/4 inch wall
jack and use a fancy looking 1-3 ft gold plated patch cord.

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Really, it makes no difference. Heavy gauge Romex or heavy gauge coax
also will work, though they are a PITA to work with compared to
stranded. IME, 10 or 12 gauge heavy coax is the most stable as it
can be run almost anywhere, even outdoors, but it's incredibly hard
to work with.

One thing - you do need to calculate the signal loss for the run.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

IMO, 5% loss is too high. Aim for 2%. For the impedance,
figure out the lowest impedance for the speakers.
This should be ~5-6 ohms for most 8 ohm speakers.

Roger lists 5%, so 2% effectively means 40% of the length
shows on that chart.(ie - use the 16 gauge row). With a
6 ohm load, 50 ft requires about 10 gauge. 4-5 ohm, 8 gauge.

If you are running very long runs, you may need to go to 10 or even
larger gauge. If you get below 10, think about coax as an alternative.

IIRC, someone had a calculator that would spit out exact values,
but I can't find the URL.

"Ben Hanson" wrote in message ...
Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

Unless you have top-tier components, the speaker cables do not matter very much.

Terry Zagar wrote:

For live-sound applications, you will need to worry about multiple
connection-disconnection cycles, spooling and unspooling, people and
equipment landing on top of the cable, and people tripping on the
cable. Avoid zip-cord stranded wire for this application (too
fragile). Also avoid solid-core Romex wire (whether 2- or
3-conductor) (too inflexible). Instead, look for cable in a round
jacket at either 10 or 12 gauge, 2 or 3-wire that can take a beating
(e.g., orange or green heavy-duty outdoor extension cords with plugs
cut off). Other comments above also apply. For pro-use, you can also
try Markertek (http://www.markertek.com/) or Swee****er
(http://www.swee****er.com/index.php) for speaker cable (with Speakon
connectors as well).

Nice advice. IME, the biggest problem is gauge.

I use a 2% loss at worst load as a limit, which is a bit more than most
places recommend, but based upon personal and other tests, 2% loss
is about where everyone's mind can't tell the difference, no matter
how good your hearing is.

The oddness comes when a guy is trying to run his 6 ohm speakers
that dip down to 3-4 ohms through 16 or 18 gauge wire. Sounds fine
for the fronts, but even a small room will easily end up with
30ft or so runs to the rear surrounds.

So he tries different cables, and gets different results as he's
pushing 10% loss or greater at the rear speakers. At this point,
resistance and other factors become apparent. If he'd used large
enough wire in the first place, any differences in the wire
would be rendered too small to hear.

ie: why pay for fancy 13-14 gauge when common 12 gauge wire
will pass every test the same or better, OFC cable with special
shielding and such or not. At 10-30 cents a foot, it's pretty
simple to just buy a roll of Romex or 10 gauge wire.

10-12 gauge is usually sufficient for most speakers, but I've
installed many 6 and 8 gauge setups as well. Given how cheap
large enough wire is, this is really a no-brainer not to use
larger gauge common wire.

The 2% also gives a bit of leeway for connector boxes and
wall jacks and such - there is a 1-2% combined loss if you
are using wall jacks. This is still well under the 5% maximum
recommended limit.

I personally like 12/3 Romex for attics and under houses. Tacks
up nicely and is weatherproof. Terminate to a fancy wall jack
and uber-expensive looking patch cable that's just long enough
to go between the speaker mount and the jack. Impresses the
friends and makes it easy to switch speakers later on if you
wish.

In article ,
"Wylie Williams" wrote:

Ben,

Be prepared for a great variety of answers. The most vigorous replies will
be from those who say that all wire sounds the same, so long as its size is
sufficient, and that those who say different are totally wrong. There may
or may net be replies from those who feel that "audiophile" wire (made and
sold for audio) will sound better. As for me I believe some of the audio
wire sounds better, but not by much, and price is not necessarily a guide.
Some years ago I had a friend with a magnificent sounding system who used
12/3 romex, swearing it was the best wire he had found. The hardware store
is not a bad route. My only caveat is that solid core wire can break if
flexed too often.

If it breaks a thousand times it's still cheaper than audiophile wire.

In article ,
"Wylie Williams" wrote:

Ben,

Be prepared for a great variety of answers. The most vigorous replies will
be from those who say that all wire sounds the same, so long as its size is
sufficient, and that those who say different are totally wrong. There may
or may net be replies from those who feel that "audiophile" wire (made and
sold for audio) will sound better. As for me I believe some of the audio
wire sounds better, but not by much, and price is not necessarily a guide.
Some years ago I had a friend with a magnificent sounding system who used
12/3 romex, swearing it was the best wire he had found. The hardware store
is not a bad route. My only caveat is that solid core wire can break if
flexed too often.

If it breaks a thousand times it's still cheaper than audiophile wire.

Just one other item that no one else seems to have touched on: if your
speakers use Speakon connectors you should double-check to confirm
whether they are wired with 2 or 4 conductors. If the latter, it won't
be that much more expensive to use 12/4 or 10/4 wire...you just have
to be extra careful the two ends are wired identically.

And if it is 4 conductors, find out if these speakers are inteded for
biamplification. If so, you can still use a single run of 12/4 with
Speakon's at either end, you'll just need to make sure your amps are
configured properly.

Joseph Oberlander wrote in message ...
---snip---

All commercial installs that I know of use heavy gauge wire, preferably
run in its own conduit or seperately. Speaker wire isn't rated for
pulling with AC, though, while electrical wire is.

Just so that the OP doesn't misunderstand you...

NEVER ever run any wire used for anything (speakers, doorbells,
thermostats, TV cable, whatever) other than the building's electrical
power system (the AC, the stuff that gets fed by the circuit breaker
box) in the same conduit, wire bundle, hole drilled in a wall stud,
etc., or along the same path and next to, the actual house electrical
wiring. Even if it's the exact same kind of wire, house wiring and
every other type must be kept separated.

In article ,
(unitron) wrote:

Even if it's the exact same kind of wire, house wiring and
every other type must be kept separated.
s/Even/Especially/

For obvious reasons.

You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

Now I have not shopped either store for a while (still have plenty from my
last wire shopping visit), but you may wish to consider that one of the two
stores (can't remember which, I think it was Lowes), sells their 12 gage
speaker wire wrapped in thicker insulation with thinner strands than the
other vendor. This serves two purposes: a bit easier to work with and it
looks "cooler" laying on your floor giving your installation that "with it"
high-end audiophile look much sought after in some circles. Alternatively,
you can buy either wire and run it through some garden hose where it's
visible to get the "very serious audiophile" look.


- GRL

"It's good to want things."

Steve Barr (philosopher, poet, humorist, chemist,
Visual Basic programmer)
"Ben Hanson" wrote in message
...
Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my
news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good
quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can
only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

GRL wrote:

You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

Now I have not shopped either store for a while (still have plenty from my
last wire shopping visit), but you may wish to consider that one of the two
stores (can't remember which, I think it was Lowes), sells their 12 gage
speaker wire wrapped in thicker insulation with thinner strands than the
other vendor. This serves two purposes: a bit easier to work with and it
looks "cooler" laying on your floor giving your installation that "with it"
high-end audiophile look much sought after in some circles. Alternatively,
you can buy either wire and run it through some garden hose where it's
visible to get the "very serious audiophile" look.

In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...

On 5/1/04 11:23 AM, in article , "GRL"
wrote:

You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

There is a good article in this month's "AudioExpress" that compares various
types including zip cord - there *are* measurable differences - the only
debate would be if the human ear and the speaker transducer is sensitive
enough to notice.

Absolute Sound did a similar exercise the last 2 issues - sans measurements
of course - and the reviewer admitted that the differences were very very
hard to quantify - and the Home Depot cord was nearly as good as all the
other exotic cables - though a couple of them apparently *did* sound
different according to him (that the Cardas cable with its Litz wire seemed
to distort). Still to me to admit that a power cord not intentionally made
for audio was "almost as good" as the expensive exoitc types was a very big
admission and putting the audio-journalist filter on - might even imply that
it could be *as* good ... ?

On 5/1/04 2:11 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:

GRL wrote:

You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

Now I have not shopped either store for a while (still have plenty from my
last wire shopping visit), but you may wish to consider that one of the two
stores (can't remember which, I think it was Lowes), sells their 12 gage
speaker wire wrapped in thicker insulation with thinner strands than the
other vendor. This serves two purposes: a bit easier to work with and it
looks "cooler" laying on your floor giving your installation that "with it"
high-end audiophile look much sought after in some circles. Alternatively,
you can buy either wire and run it through some garden hose where it's
visible to get the "very serious audiophile" look.

In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...

To Walker - wire was wire - the new owners use oxygen free, etc. etc for the
wiring inside the speaker and components themselves now. Previously, it had
been under a 'wire is wire' philosophy.

Still, a nice power cord will come very very close to a well made audio
cable.

In article ,
GRL wrote:
You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

I always tin my 12ga zip cord, since the copper corrodes and that can
cause problems.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, find a friend with a soldering
iron or gun - they'll know.

Mike Squires
--

Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 317 233 9456 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at siralan.org 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408

Bromo wrote:
On 5/1/04 11:23 AM, in article , "GRL"
wrote:


You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.


There is a good article in this month's "AudioExpress" that compares various
types including zip cord - there *are* measurable differences - the only
debate would be if the human ear and the speaker transducer is sensitive
enough to notice.

Absolute Sound did a similar exercise the last 2 issues - sans measurements
of course - and the reviewer admitted that the differences were very very
hard to quantify - and the Home Depot cord was nearly as good as all the
other exotic cables - though a couple of them apparently *did* sound
different according to him (that the Cardas cable with its Litz wire seemed
to distort). Still to me to admit that a power cord not intentionally made
for audio was "almost as good" as the expensive exoitc types was a very big
admission and putting the audio-journalist filter on - might even imply that
it could be *as* good ... ?

Yes,the AudioXpress article is excellent;did you notice in the SPICE
simulations that a tube amp with 0.6ohm output impedance(ZO) masked out
the minute cable differences yet the subjective reviewer using an amp
with an even higher ZO=0.8ohm claimed to hear significant cable
differences.

On Sun, 02 May 2004 01:30:04 GMT, (Michael
Squires) wrote:

In article ,
GRL wrote:
You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

I always tin my 12ga zip cord, since the copper corrodes and that can
cause problems.

Cold flow of the tinned end causes even worse problems by gradually
slackening the connection. By all meand tin the very end to avoid
loose strands - but *always* connect to the bare copper, or use plated
spades, soldered or well-crimped to the cable. If soldered, use
heatshrink or similar strain relief to avoid fatigue cracks.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, find a friend with a soldering
iron or gun - they'll know.

Hopefully, they'll give the same advice. :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 01 May 2004 21:30:33 GMT, Bromo wrote:

On 5/1/04 2:11 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:

In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off
the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...

To Walker - wire was wire - the new owners use oxygen free, etc. etc
for the
wiring inside the speaker and components themselves now. Previously,
it had
been under a 'wire is wire' philosophy.

Yet another unfortunate case of a fine engineer building the
reputation of a company, and his incompetent son contriving to ruin
it. Now the marketing guys hold sway, and bull**** is the order of the
day. Sad, very sad - but at least they gave us the 988/989!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 5/2/04 11:07 AM, in article , "Terry E.
Dwyer" wrote:

Yes,the AudioXpress article is excellent;did you notice in the SPICE
simulations that a tube amp with 0.6ohm output impedance(ZO) masked out
the minute cable differences yet the subjective reviewer using an amp
with an even higher ZO=0.8ohm claimed to hear significant cable
differences.

Go figure - I think it would be interesting to have something happen that
would make the line cord "sound better" than the $100 per foot stuff.
Somehow it doesn't happen! :-\

If someone thinks they can hear the difference, then they are either fooling
themselves, or there is something about perception we don't understand.

On 5/2/04 12:36 PM, in article , "Stewart
Pinkerton" wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 21:30:33 GMT, Bromo wrote:

On 5/1/04 2:11 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:

In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off
the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...

To Walker - wire was wire - the new owners use oxygen free, etc. etc
for the
wiring inside the speaker and components themselves now. Previously,
it had
been under a 'wire is wire' philosophy.

Yet another unfortunate case of a fine engineer building the
reputation of a company, and his incompetent son contriving to ruin
it. Now the marketing guys hold sway, and bull**** is the order of the
day. Sad, very sad - but at least they gave us the 988/989!

Isn't it always the way? Still Quad is hardly "ruined" though got gobbled
up like many boutique electronics manufacturers in the last 20 years!

I am about to compare and contrast some 10 ga. Power cord I have vs. Kimber
Cable (the low end of the "4" range I already have). Since I have been
using this power cable for powering a bandsaw and power drill can I assume
it has been "broken in?" :-} (Got a new cord that reaches a bit further and
didn't want the other one go to waste! )

On 5/2/04 12:33 PM, in article zp9lc.16745$I%1.1168349@attbi_s51, "Stewart
Pinkerton" wrote:

On Sun, 02 May 2004 01:30:04 GMT, (Michael
Squires) wrote:

In article ,
GRL wrote:
You can absolutely go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the wire you need,
economically, and it will work every bit as good as the "audiophile" stuff.
Wire, is wire as long as the gage is sufficient for the distance of the
runs.

I always tin my 12ga zip cord, since the copper corrodes and that can
cause problems.

Cold flow of the tinned end causes even worse problems by gradually
slackening the connection. By all meand tin the very end to avoid
loose strands - but *always* connect to the bare copper, or use plated
spades, soldered or well-crimped to the cable. If soldered, use
heatshrink or similar strain relief to avoid fatigue cracks.

True - but also if the solder is wicked away to leave a coating, the
mechanical connection would be still between the wire and connector which
should minimize it. But that is a good point!

If you don't know what I'm talking about, find a friend with a soldering
iron or gun - they'll know.

Hopefully, they'll give the same advice. :-)

"Bromo" wrote in message
news:VRclc.12518$TD4.1501412@attbi_s01...

If someone thinks they can hear the difference, then they are either
fooling
themselves, or there is something about perception we don't understand.


Not really, if your brain knows the cable cost $100/ft it hears differently
than if the cost were $0.10/ft.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 21:30:33 GMT, Bromo wrote:

On 5/1/04 2:11 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:


In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...


To Walker - wire was wire - the new owners use oxygen free, etc. etc
for the
wiring inside the speaker and components themselves now. Previously,
it had
been under a 'wire is wire' philosophy.


Yet another unfortunate case of a fine engineer building the
reputation of a company, and his incompetent son contriving to ruin
it. Now the marketing guys hold sway, and bull**** is the order of the
day. Sad, very sad - but at least they gave us the 988/989!

I have to agree with Stewart here. From what I read, the sound coming
from the Quads at a show in the UK was highly received with great
reviews. And those in attendance wanted to know what speaker cables were
used. If Black&Decker are good enough for the revealing Quads, I would
think that they would be good enough for anything else. I could not tell
the difference between my 20 year old Monster Powerline 2, regular Home
Depot (various gauges) and Audioquest Indigo 2's.

On 5/3/04 8:05 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 21:30:33 GMT, Bromo wrote:

On 5/1/04 2:11 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:


In addition, get the speaker cable that Quad recommends... Black &
Decker extension cord. Of course, you will have to "mod" it. Cut off the
electrical ends and add your own speaker connectors. Of course, you'll
have to like the color...


To Walker - wire was wire - the new owners use oxygen free, etc. etc
for the
wiring inside the speaker and components themselves now. Previously,
it had
been under a 'wire is wire' philosophy.


Yet another unfortunate case of a fine engineer building the
reputation of a company, and his incompetent son contriving to ruin
it. Now the marketing guys hold sway, and bull**** is the order of the
day. Sad, very sad - but at least they gave us the 988/989!

I have to agree with Stewart here. From what I read, the sound coming
from the Quads at a show in the UK was highly received with great
reviews. And those in attendance wanted to know what speaker cables were
used. If Black&Decker are good enough for the revealing Quads, I would
think that they would be good enough for anything else. I could not tell
the difference between my 20 year old Monster Powerline 2, regular Home
Depot (various gauges) and Audioquest Indigo 2's.

What kind of speaker, what kind of amp, and how long the cables? Just
curious.

I put together some 10 ga. Romex as a speaker cable, and swapped out my
Kimber 4 basic cable for them. The bass seemed beefier and boomier and
seemed to be out of phase with the treble - thought it was weird. I am
willing to chalk it up to my imagination, but it sure seemed to be
different.....

Bromo wrote:

On 5/3/04 8:05 PM, in article , "TonyP"
wrote:


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

snip

Yet another unfortunate case of a fine engineer building the
reputation of a company, and his incompetent son contriving to ruin
it. Now the marketing guys hold sway, and bull**** is the order of the
day. Sad, very sad - but at least they gave us the 988/989!

I have to agree with Stewart here. From what I read, the sound coming
from the Quads at a show in the UK was highly received with great
reviews. And those in attendance wanted to know what speaker cables were
used. If Black&Decker are good enough for the revealing Quads, I would
think that they would be good enough for anything else. I could not tell
the difference between my 20 year old Monster Powerline 2, regular Home
Depot (various gauges) and Audioquest Indigo 2's.


What kind of speaker, what kind of amp, and how long the cables? Just
curious.

Marsh P2000T pre amp, Counterpoint SA3 pre amp, Counterpoint SA220 power
amp, Von Schweikert VR4 speakers, Parasound CDP1000 cd player, DAC ART
DI/O, VPI with Grado Reference Platinum cart. Runs were about 8 feet. I
used various interconnects and settled on the inexpensive Canare L4E6S
cables and their F10 connectors. Of course, I have the required box of
MIT's, Monsters, Esoteric, Vampire, Distech and other interconnects I
have collected over the years. What a waste of $$$.

I put together some 10 ga. Romex as a speaker cable, and swapped out my
Kimber 4 basic cable for them. The bass seemed beefier and boomier and
seemed to be out of phase with the treble - thought it was weird. I am
willing to chalk it up to my imagination, but it sure seemed to be
different.....

The only 'different' speaker cable I 'think' I heard a difference in was
MIT with those boxes attached. Can't say they were better or worse
sounding. Just different.