[Howard Davis[_2_]]

I have a pair of Legacy-1 speaker systems, now out of warranty, and two
speakers (the front-facing woofer in one system; the midrange in the other)
produce noticeable distortion at certain frequencies when tested with a
clean sine wave at low to moderate power levels. I have not heard anything
objectionable (yet) with music material. While they were still under
warranty it was necessary to replace a ribbon tweeter that failed in one
system.

I am still awaiting a reply from Legacy regarding the availability of exact
replacement speakers for these systems.

I have never abused these speakers. My Harmon-Kardon receiver can deliver
140W RMS maximum into 4 ohms, and the maximum rated amplifier power for
these speakers is 300W. I always operate them at reasonable levels, never
approaching the maximum power the amp can deliver.

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like
these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

[Audio_Empire]

In article ,
"Howard Davis" wrote:

I have a pair of Legacy-1 speaker systems, now out of warranty, and two
speakers (the front-facing woofer in one system; the midrange in the other)
produce noticeable distortion at certain frequencies when tested with a
clean sine wave at low to moderate power levels. I have not heard anything
objectionable (yet) with music material. While they were still under
warranty it was necessary to replace a ribbon tweeter that failed in one
system.

I am still awaiting a reply from Legacy regarding the availability of exact
replacement speakers for these systems.

I have never abused these speakers. My Harmon-Kardon receiver can deliver
140W RMS maximum into 4 ohms, and the maximum rated amplifier power for
these speakers is 300W. I always operate them at reasonable levels, never
approaching the maximum power the amp can deliver.

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like
these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

Are you referring to ADVENT Legacy 1 speakers (you don't specify)?

It depends upon how they are made. For instance, The old AR3ax speakers
from the late 1960's often had drivers fail after just 10 years due to
the paper drying-out. Older Magneplanars had the aluminum-wire voice
grids fail after just a few years if they were located where they got
direct sunlight. Seems that the adhesive used to adhere the voice grids
to the Mylar diaphragms was sensitive to UV and it would actually change
chemically and corrode away the aluminum voice grid wire so that
eventually the wire parted and the speaker failed. Infinity had a
similar problem with the EMIT and EMIM ribbon drivers used in their
better speakers. The etched copper voice grid on the diaphragm would get
hair-line cracks in it causing the unit to fail. If you knew what you
were doing, you could generally fix those yourself, though. None of
these failures are related to abuse.
Many modern cone speakers use synthetic materials such as Kevlar and
Polypropylene as cone materials and they generally don't fail like paper
cones did. Given the robustness of most voice coils and coil forms these
days, those speakers should outlast their owners as long as they aren't
abused.

If you are indeed talking about Advent's Legacy 1 speaker system, the
cones of the main drivers on those speakers were made from paper, and it
is quite possible that the dry heat found in most people's homes in the
winter will have, over a 20-year period, dried the paper out so that it
has started to come apart. If, on the other hand, you are talking about
the products of the company Legacy Audio, I can't say, except for the
general comments above.

[Howard Davis[_2_]]

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Howard Davis" wrote:

I have a pair of Legacy-1 speaker systems, now out of warranty, and two
speakers (the front-facing woofer in one system; the midrange in the
other)
produce noticeable distortion at certain frequencies when tested with a
clean sine wave at low to moderate power levels. I have not heard
anything
objectionable (yet) with music material. While they were still under
warranty it was necessary to replace a ribbon tweeter that failed in one
system.

I am still awaiting a reply from Legacy regarding the availability of
exact
replacement speakers for these systems.

I have never abused these speakers. My Harmon-Kardon receiver can deliver
140W RMS maximum into 4 ohms, and the maximum rated amplifier power for
these speakers is 300W. I always operate them at reasonable levels, never
approaching the maximum power the amp can deliver.

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers
like
these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

Are you referring to ADVENT Legacy 1 speakers (you don't specify)?

Thank you for the reply.
No, These are from Legacy Audio, originally known as Reel to Real Designs.
Legacy Audio is easily found via Google search.
This particular speaker system model was subsequently renamed the Classic,
and I believe is no longer produced.

It depends upon how they are made. For instance, The old AR3ax speakers

I had a pair of the AR3a prior to buying the Legacies!

from the late 1960's often had drivers fail after just 10 years due to
the paper drying-out.

True!

Older Magneplanars had the aluminum-wire voice
grids fail after just a few years if they were located where they got
direct sunlight. Seems that the adhesive used to adhere the voice grids
to the Mylar diaphragms was sensitive to UV and it would actually change
chemically and corrode away the aluminum voice grid wire so that
eventually the wire parted and the speaker failed. Infinity had a
similar problem with the EMIT and EMIM ribbon drivers used in their
better speakers. The etched copper voice grid on the diaphragm would get
hair-line cracks in it causing the unit to fail. If you knew what you
were doing, you could generally fix those yourself, though. None of
these failures are related to abuse.
Many modern cone speakers use synthetic materials such as Kevlar and
Polypropylene as cone materials and they generally don't fail like paper
cones did. Given the robustness of most voice coils and coil forms these
days, those speakers should outlast their owners as long as they aren't
abused.

Legacy began using Kevlar cones in their midranges, but after I bought the
Legacy-1s that I have.
I doubt that the distortion-buzzing I now hear under test conditions is due
to the cone material - more likely the voice coils or cone suspension.

If you are indeed talking about Advent's Legacy 1 speaker system, the
cones of the main drivers on those speakers were made from paper, and it
is quite possible that the dry heat found in most people's homes in the
winter will have, over a 20-year period, dried the paper out so that it
has started to come apart. If, on the other hand, you are talking about
the products of the company Legacy Audio, I can't say, except for the
general comments above.

Thanks. I have still not received any response to my two inquiries to Legacy
Audio.
Viewing their most recent online catalog and comparing it with a catalog I
have from 1994, it appears they have somewhat downgraded their product line.
I'll report here on any response I receive from Legacy. When necessary to
replace these speakers, I will NOT be buying from this company - unless
perhaps they see fit to give me a good deal on speakers of equal or superior
quality.

[[email protected]]

On 28 Sep 2012 17:51:38 GMT, "Howard Davis" wrote:

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers
like these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

Um, speakers do not "become" defective after 20 years. They are either defective
to start, or they fail. If they failed after 20 years, it's probably because
they wore out like everything else. Nothing lasts forever.

Thanks. I have still not received any response to my two inquiries to Legacy
Audio.

That surprises me. Did you try calling? Every time I called Legacy, I was
treated with extreme courtesy. But I haven't called in more years than I care to
admit.

(I note with interest that their current Web page shows them to be back in
Springfield. For a while they were in ... Pennsylvania, I think. Apparently
they've gone home again.)

When necessary to
replace these speakers, I will NOT be buying from this company - unless
perhaps they see fit to give me a good deal on speakers of equal or superior
quality.

If that is your opinion because they haven't responded, then perhaps I can
sympathize. But if you feel that way because a 20 year old set of speakers
finally bit the dust, I think you're being unreasonable. Legacy has always
produced very fine loudspeakers at a reasonable price, compared to competitors'
products of similar sound quality.

[Howard Davis[_2_]]

wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2012 17:51:38 GMT, "Howard Davis" wrote:

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers
like these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

Um, speakers do not "become" defective after 20 years. They are either
defective
to start, or they fail. If they failed after 20 years, it's probably
because
they wore out like everything else. Nothing lasts forever.

When one spends a few thousand dollars on such durable products as
audiophile quality speakers, one has a reasonable right to expect their life
will at least exceed their own. Speakers, used well within the power levels
they were designed to handle, should not wear out.

Thanks. I have still not received any response to my two inquiries to
Legacy
Audio.

That surprises me. Did you try calling? Every time I called Legacy, I was
treated with extreme courtesy. But I haven't called in more years than I
care to
admit.

I received a response by email today, and will follow up by phone with
Legacy next week. This was NOT a response to my original emails to their
service and tech departments, but specifically stated it was due to my
posting to this newsgroup.

(I note with interest that their current Web page shows them to be back in
Springfield. For a while they were in ... Pennsylvania, I think.
Apparently
they've gone home again.)

When necessary to
replace these speakers, I will NOT be buying from this company - unless
perhaps they see fit to give me a good deal on speakers of equal or
superior
quality.

If that is your opinion because they haven't responded, then perhaps I can
sympathize. But if you feel that way because a 20 year old set of speakers
finally bit the dust, I think you're being unreasonable. Legacy has always
produced very fine loudspeakers at a reasonable price, compared to
competitors'
products of similar sound quality.

Legacy has finally responded, but as a result of my publicizing my issue
here. I thought this would elicit a response when direct communication
failed to do so! I am not criticizing the performance quality of their
speakers, but their durability.

[Audio_Empire]

In article ,
"Howard Davis" wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2012 17:51:38 GMT, "Howard Davis" wrote:

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers
like these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

Um, speakers do not "become" defective after 20 years. They are either
defective
to start, or they fail. If they failed after 20 years, it's probably
because
they wore out like everything else. Nothing lasts forever.

When one spends a few thousand dollars on such durable products as
audiophile quality speakers, one has a reasonable right to expect their life
will at least exceed their own. Speakers, used well within the power levels
they were designed to handle, should not wear out.

And why not? They are electromechanical devices subject to wear like any
other mechanical system. I think your expectations might be a tad
unreasonable. Most audiophile manufacturers are small companies. They
can't afford the kind of longevity testing that a big appliance company
like a TV maker or a washing machine company can do. The best that they
can hope for is to do their best in designing and manufacturing their
products and to stand behind them when they make mistakes choosing
components or processes whether over the long or the short haul.

Now that they have contacted you, I suspect that they will move heaven
and earth (within reason, of course) to do right by you. That's the
tradition of this industry.

[Michael Bennet]

I haven't heard your original Classics, but I am very familiar with
Legacy as a company and I have their original Signature II speakers
from the 90's as well as the new Signature SE sitting side by side in
my room.

The new Signature SE is a huge leap forward in performance from the
origina l Signature II. (My Signature IIs from the 90's are still
performing like they did on day one.)

Their latest product line are incredible performers, and are superior
designs. Rohacell reinforced silver graphite drivers, cast frames,
rubber surrounds, AMT tweeters, and DSP correction with internal amps
in the larger systems, with a second to none fit and finish. This is
a well thought out, well designed, and value packed product line.

In my experience with the company, Doug and Bill have been nothing
short of exemplary in the customer service department. Perhaps your
correspondence isn't reaching them? Have you called in?

[Howard Davis[_2_]]

"Michael Bennet" wrote in message
...
I haven't heard your original Classics, but I am very familiar with
Legacy as a company and I have their original Signature II speakers
from the 90's as well as the new Signature SE sitting side by side in
my room.

The new Signature SE is a huge leap forward in performance from the
origina l Signature II. (My Signature IIs from the 90's are still
performing like they did on day one.)

Their latest product line are incredible performers, and are superior
designs. Rohacell reinforced silver graphite drivers, cast frames,
rubber surrounds, AMT tweeters, and DSP correction with internal amps
in the larger systems, with a second to none fit and finish. This is
a well thought out, well designed, and value packed product line.

In my experience with the company, Doug and Bill have been nothing
short of exemplary in the customer service department. Perhaps your
correspondence isn't reaching them? Have you called in?

Yes, Legacy products are no doubt still good value for the money, but
comparing their speakers of today with those in my 1994 and subsequent
catalogs, I see a decline in what one gets for their money. The most obvious
example is in their original Focus system, which I would have if I had the
space for them in my living room. The original Focus had three 12" low
frequency drivers. The Focus SE and Focus HD that replaced the original
Focus system appear in a my 2008 catalog, and have only TWO such woofers. I
consider this a pretty obvious downgrading of the original design, though
two such woofers per system are no doubt more than adequate in most rooms. I
could cite other such changes in their product line.

As an electronics engineer I admire their advanced, sophisticated designs as
seen in the Helix and Whisper, though these syatems seem better suited to
large theaters than home audio application. My problem is with the failure
of a ribbon tweeter, midrange, and woofer - THREE speakers, over the 18
years I have had my Legacy-1 systems, which I have not abused.

[Greg Berchin[_3_]]

On 29 Sep 2012 17:50:37 GMT, "Howard Davis" wrote:

My problem is with the failure
of a ribbon tweeter, midrange, and woofer - THREE speakers, over the 18
years I have had my Legacy-1 systems, which I have not abused.

I am going to be a polite about this as I possibly can ...

If you have experienced excessive driver failures over eighteen years, with a
set of speakers from a manufacturer that, to the best of my knowledge, has an
excellent reputation for quality, then perhaps the problem is that your speakers
HAVE been abused. (My Focus system from the early 1990s still seems to be in
excellent shape. But after twenty years, if one or more of the drivers was found
to have deteriorated to the point of failure, I would not attribute it to a
"defect".)

I do not intend any offense by my comment, only to note that "abuse" takes many
forms and not all of them are intentional. Does your amplifier output DC-offset
when overdriven? Is there an ozone source anywhere in your home? Were the
drivers exposed to direct sunlight through a window? The possibilities are
endless.

[MBennet]

The answer to your problem is to call Legacy.
I just talked to them last week, and they kindly answered all of my questions.

I have Legacy speakers that are old as well, and they are still performing great.

I love my Legacy's- old and new. But, the new ones absolutely devastate the old ones!

[Arny Krueger]

"Howard Davis" wrote in message
...

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like
these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

I have a pair of Boston Acoustic CR-9 speakers that must be close to 20
years old and still sound very fine.

So I don't know about expensive high-performance speakers, but some
mid-priced speakers seem to hang in there pretty well. ;-)

[Peter Wieck]

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Howard Davis wrote:



It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like

these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

In a word, Yes!

It is unreasonable to _EXPECT_ it. In general, I look at any mechanical device as an equation in several variables being:

a) Purpose
b) Initial quality
c) Cost
d) Performance
e) Use density

So, an electric drill, while a tool has a much different purpose than a hammer. And an Estwing hammer is of a much greater cost than a piece of Chinese Junque, while at a typically substantially higher first cost. It will also likely perform better. I would expect the Estwing to last 20+ years of hard use easily. I would not expect the Chinese hammer to do the same. However, if I hammered one nail per year and only into soft wood, either would likely last beyond my personal need.

I would not expect any electric tool to last 20 years of hard use without maintenance.

Speakers are the functional equivalent of electrical tools. And have internal components, parts and pieces subject to time (not use) related deterioration - capacitors, speaker surrounds, glues and so forth. Some of which may be relevant, some not. In summary, parts may deteriorate with use, certain types of magnets for one, some by abuse, some by age, some by all three. Further, what constitutes 'abuse' will also change with age.

At this time, I have six (6) sets of speakers in use. The newest of which is 25 years old, the oldest of which is 50 years old. The only ones that do not (yet) need or have not had some level of maintenance are the newest (AR M5s as it happens). But all of the others from the Maggies to the AR3as have had maintenance or repairs made to one extent or another from a new ribbon tweeter for the Maggies (my fault and a $140 fix) to a complete rebuild of the crossovers (AR3as), to new surrounds to refinishing the exteriors and installation of new grille-cloth.

That it is a hobby means that the normal (to me) care-and-feeding of my audio equipment gives me some pleasure and serves as good therapy. This may not apply to others. Installing new surrounds may be a PITA, but they are cheap and don't take much time. Nothing like peeling raisins or counting sugar.... As only one example.

But, if you think you are being ill-used by getting only 20 years out of your speakers - I truly suggest you should build your own. In that way you may have complete control of what goes into them, what you expect from them and the longevity you wish to achieve. There is lots of information out there on how to do it as well.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Audio_Empire]

In article ,
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Howard Davis wrote:



It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like

these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

In a word, Yes!

It is unreasonable to _EXPECT_ it. In general, I look at any mechanical
device as an equation in several variables being:

a) Purpose
b) Initial quality
c) Cost
d) Performance
e) Use density

So, an electric drill, while a tool has a much different purpose than a
hammer. And an Estwing hammer is of a much greater cost than a piece of
Chinese Junque, while at a typically substantially higher first cost. It will
also likely perform better. I would expect the Estwing to last 20+ years of
hard use easily. I would not expect the Chinese hammer to do the same.
However, if I hammered one nail per year and only into soft wood, either
would likely last beyond my personal need.

While I agree with your premise, I don't think you picked a good
example. While I wouldn't expect a cheap Harbor-Freight electric drill
from China to last more than a couple of years, even with light use, I
would expect that a new US made Porter- Cable electric drill would last
many years. I have my father's Porter-Cable drill that he bought,
probably back in the 1940's. It survived his use (he built furniture as
a hobby) and it survived my childhood abuse (not inconsiderable). When
my father passed, that old drill came down to me. It still works fine
after more than 60 years. OTOH, I bought a hammer out of a one-dollar
tool bin when I first came to California back in the late 1960's. I seem
to recall it had a made in Taiwan sticker on it (long since gone). It is
the only hammer I've ever owned. It is one-piece, drop forged, with a
rubber handle grip. There's nothing to break. The rubber, conceivably,
could have deteriorated, I guess, but it hasn't. The hammer works fine,
and why wouldn't it?


I would not expect any electric tool to last 20 years of hard use without
maintenance.

Maintenance is required for many mechanical manufactured goods, that's
true. But some things not only don't need maintenance, but there's
nothing to maintain. This is true of speakers. How does one maintain a
speaker? By not abusing it? Well, I suppose you call that maintenance if
you stretched the definition of the word somewhat. Speakers can be
repaired but not really "maintained" like a car or a washing machine.

Speakers are the functional equivalent of electrical tools. And have internal
components, parts and pieces subject to time (not use) related deterioration
- capacitors, speaker surrounds, glues and so forth. Some of which may be
relevant, some not. In summary, parts may deteriorate with use, certain
types of magnets for one, some by abuse, some by age, some by all three.
Further, what constitutes 'abuse' will also change with age.

This is true, yet I know someone who is 83 years old and owns two
Electrovoice floor-standing 3-way speaker systems that he bought back in
the 1950's. Both still work fine (they don't sound all that good by
modern standards, but then they never did.)

At this time, I have six (6) sets of speakers in use. The newest of which is
25 years old, the oldest of which is 50 years old. The only ones that do not
(yet) need or have not had some level of maintenance are the newest (AR M5s
as it happens). But all of the others from the Maggies to the AR3as have had
maintenance or repairs made to one extent or another from a new ribbon
tweeter for the Maggies (my fault and a $140 fix) to a complete rebuild of
the crossovers (AR3as), to new surrounds to refinishing the exteriors and
installation of new grille-cloth.

That it is a hobby means that the normal (to me) care-and-feeding of my audio
equipment gives me some pleasure and serves as good therapy. This may not
apply to others. Installing new surrounds may be a PITA, but they are cheap
and don't take much time. Nothing like peeling raisins or counting sugar...
As only one example.

This is repair, not maintenance.

But, if you think you are being ill-used by getting only 20 years out of your
speakers - I truly suggest you should build your own. In that way you may
have complete control of what goes into them, what you expect from them and
the longevity you wish to achieve. There is lots of information out there on
how to do it as well.

In the case of speakers, there are things at play here over which the
consumer has no control. I mentioned a few of them a couple of weeks ago
on this forum. Glue that attacks the grid wires on older Magneplanars,
foam surrounds that deteriorate due to pollutants in the air, cones that
dry out due to the low humidity and forced air heat used in many parts
of the country, etc.

The only recourse here is to replace the damaged components. After 20
years, it's unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to accept the burden
of the costs of such repairs, but you'd be surprised at the number of
high-end manufacturers who will do just that!



Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Peter Wieck]

Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the snippage.


On Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:48:52 PM UTC-4, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,

Peter Wieck wrote:



On Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Howard Davis wrote:







It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like



these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?



In a word, Yes!



It is unreasonable to _EXPECT_ it. In general, I look at any mechanical

device as an equation in several variables being:



a) Purpose

b) Initial quality

c) Cost

d) Performance

e) Use density



So, an electric drill, while a tool has a much different purpose than a

hammer. And an Estwing hammer is of a much greater cost than a piece of

Chinese Junque, while at a typically substantially higher first cost. It will

also likely perform better. SNIP


While I agree with your premise, I don't think you picked a good

example. While I wouldn't expect a cheap Harbor-Freight electric drill

from China to last more than a couple of years, even with light use, I

would expect that a new US made Porter- Cable electric drill would last

many years. I have my father's Porter-Cable drill that he bought,

probably back in the 1940's. It survived his use (he built furniture as

a hobby) and it survived my childhood abuse (not inconsiderable). When

my father passed, that old drill came down to me. It still works fine

after more than 60 years.

That is a good thing. But back in the day when I worked for a carpentry sub-contractor, the finest screwguns (Porter-Cable, Milwaukee & DeWalt) lasted perhaps 3 months - and were then sent back to the manufacturer for rebuild.. They ran pretty much 6 hours per day, 5 days a week - not abuse, just extremely heavy use.

OTOH, I bought a hammer out of a one-dollar

tool bin when I first came to California back in the late 1960's. I seem

to recall it had a made in Taiwan sticker on it (long since gone). It is

the only hammer I've ever owned. It is one-piece, drop forged, with a

rubber handle grip. There's nothing to break. The rubber, conceivably,

could have deteriorated, I guess, but it hasn't. The hammer works fine,

and why wouldn't it?

That is an easy answer to give. With respect, one day try a Vaughn or Estwing hammer, even a Klein. Try it when doing what I would call heavy trim - such as handrails on a deck or some such when each nail must be blunted and a nail-gun just does not cut it. Then, try the Taiwan hammer. A well made, well balanced hammer does not tire the user, does not slip off the nail head and follows the wrist of the user. Either is adequate for the occasional nail. But that is not the point. Almost any speaker is adequate for intercom use - not so much for audio use.






I would not expect any electric tool to last 20 years of hard use without

maintenance.



Maintenance is required for many mechanical manufactured goods, that's

true. But some things not only don't need maintenance, but there's

nothing to maintain. This is true of speakers. How does one maintain a

speaker? By not abusing it? Well, I suppose you call that maintenance if

you stretched the definition of the word somewhat. Speakers can be

repaired but not really "maintained" like a car or a washing machine.


Respectfully, "maintenance" means replacing parts before they break. Apparently your school of maintenance might be "allow it to fail", then replace the failed part. Try that on the timing-belt in an interference engine in a car and you will understand the difference between maintenance and repair. Replacing crossover capacitors before they open (or worse, short) is the functional equivalent of replacing a timing belt. Cleaning pots and connectors is the functional equivalent of an oil-change. Removing dust from drivers, oiling the wood - it comes down to care-and-feeding.


Speakers are the functional equivalent of electrical tools. And have internal

components, parts and pieces subject to time (not use) related deterioration

- capacitors, speaker surrounds, glues and so forth. Some of which may be

relevant, some not. In summary, parts may deteriorate with use, certain

types of magnets for one, some by abuse, some by age, some by all three..

Further, what constitutes 'abuse' will also change with age.



This is true, yet I know someone who is 83 years old and owns two

Electrovoice floor-standing 3-way speaker systems that he bought back in

the 1950's. Both still work fine (they don't sound all that good by

modern standards, but then they never did.)



At this time, I have six (6) sets of speakers in use. SNIP But all of the others from the Maggies to the AR3as have had

maintenance or repairs made to one extent or another from a new ribbon

tweeter for the Maggies (my fault and a $140 fix) to a complete rebuild of

the crossovers (AR3as), to new surrounds to refinishing the exteriors and

installation of new grille-cloth.

Installing new surrounds may be a PITA, but they are cheap

and don't take much time. Nothing like peeling raisins or counting sugar...

As only one example.



This is repair, not maintenance.

I respectfully disagree. Between age and materials-choices, things wear out and fail. One may get ahead of the bus and *maintain* prior to failure, or be under the bus and wait until a catastrophic failure takes place and then make a *repair*. I prefer the former over the latter. And using the Surrounds as the example - they give plenty of warning before they fail - and so allow replacement prior to a crisis and _BEFORE_ potential voice-coil damage.


But, if you think you are being ill-used by getting only 20 years out of your

speakers - I truly suggest you should build your own. In that way you may

have complete control of what goes into them, what you expect from them and

the longevity you wish to achieve. There is lots of information out there on

how to do it as well.



In the case of speakers, there are things at play here over which the

consumer has no control. I mentioned a few of them a couple of weeks ago

on this forum. Glue that attacks the grid wires on older Magneplanars,

foam surrounds that deteriorate due to pollutants in the air, cones that

dry out due to the low humidity and forced air heat used in many parts

of the country, etc.

I keep Maggies of a certain vintage and I am well aware of that phenomenon. I keep them out of direct sunlight. Not really a big deal. In my conversations with Magnepan over the years, they have been extremely forthcoming on how to prevent coil separation - and what to do should it start - starting with black 'socks'. IOW, their customer-service has been first-rate, direct, unapologetic, and supportive. Their parts, when needed, have been quite inexpensive relative to their competition. That ribbon tweeter cost me a total of $140, including shipping a 6' PVC tube in both directions (they wanted the core back for rebuild). An AR3a tweeter would run me $80 or so, and the 'core' would be landfill.

Paper cones may be easily maintained against 'drying out' - albeit at an initial alteration of the properties of the paper - as I remember, the formula goes something like: 1 part conventional, fresh rubber cement, 1 part conventional fresh contact Cement, 10 parts VM&P Naptha, painted on the cone with a soft brush and allowed to dry for 48 hours in a dust-free environment.. This will soften the paper during the drying process, and add a tiny bit of weight overall - but the alternative is re-coning - an imprecise (relative to cone weight) and painstaking process at least.


The only recourse here is to replace the damaged components. After 20

years, it's unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to accept the burden

of the costs of such repairs, but you'd be surprised at the number of

high-end manufacturers who will do just that!

They do, and to my way of thinking, they should not unless it is for a recognized process/materials failure that they coulda-shoulda known - similar to a vehicle recall, or a bad run of parts, or the equivalent. Point being that if they are truly competent and high-end (using Magnepan as an example), you, the rest of the world an I want them to remain in business, supportive of their product and so forth. Expecting them to bleed ad infinitum threatens that survival for no good reason whatsoever. That they _have_ the parts or are willing to _make_ the parts at a reasonable cost and that they are willing to make any repair to any of their speakers, also at a reasonable cost is far more than enough in my opinion.

I keep a lot of vintage equipment. And I rebuild a fair amount of it that I have rescued from landfill, junk-piles and/or dusty shelves in the back of repair-shops. I see on a regular basis the difference between 'maintenance' and 'failure', much of that failure being utterly needless - the proverbial pound of care caused by careful avoidance of that ounce of prevention. The simple act of removing a grille-cloth to dust the drivers (yes, dust goes through the cloth) will allow for a visual inspection of things... you get the picture.

Sorry for the semi-rant.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Audio_Empire]

In article ,
Peter Wieck wrote:

Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the snippage.

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:48:52 PM UTC-4, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,

Peter Wieck wrote:
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Howard Davis wrote:

It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers
like
these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?

In a word, Yes!

It is unreasonable to _EXPECT_ it. In general, I look at any mechanical
device as an equation in several variables being:

a) Purpose
b) Initial quality
c) Cost
d) Performance
e) Use density

So, an electric drill, while a tool has a much different purpose than a
hammer. And an Estwing hammer is of a much greater cost than a piece of
Chinese Junque, while at a typically substantially higher first cost. It
will also likely perform better. SNIP

While I agree with your premise, I don't think you picked a good
example. While I wouldn't expect a cheap Harbor-Freight electric drill
from China to last more than a couple of years, even with light use, I
would expect that a new US made Porter- Cable electric drill would last
many years. I have my father's Porter-Cable drill that he bought,
probably back in the 1940's. It survived his use (he built furniture as
a hobby) and it survived my childhood abuse (not inconsiderable). When
my father passed, that old drill came down to me. It still works fine
after more than 60 years.

That is a good thing. But back in the day when I worked for a carpentry
sub-contractor, the finest screwguns (Porter-Cable, Milwaukee & DeWalt)
lasted perhaps 3 months - and were then sent back to the manufacturer for
rebuild. They ran pretty much 6 hours per day, 5 days a week - not abuse,
just extremely heavy use.

OTOH, I bought a hammer out of a one-dollar
tool bin when I first came to California back in the late 1960's. I seem
to recall it had a made in Taiwan sticker on it (long since gone). It is
the only hammer I've ever owned. It is one-piece, drop forged, with a
rubber handle grip. There's nothing to break. The rubber, conceivably,
could have deteriorated, I guess, but it hasn't. The hammer works fine,
and why wouldn't it?

That is an easy answer to give. With respect, one day try a Vaughn or Estwing
hammer, even a Klein. Try it when doing what I would call heavy trim - such
as handrails on a deck or some such when each nail must be blunted and a
nail-gun just does not cut it. Then, try the Taiwan hammer. A well made, well
balanced hammer does not tire the user, does not slip off the nail head and
follows the wrist of the user. Either is adequate for the occasional nail.
But that is not the point. Almost any speaker is adequate for intercom use -
not so much for audio use.

OK, I can't argue with you there. But ease of use, good design is
another issue, we're talking about things lasting a long time. That
Taiwanese hammer cost me a buck. It has lasted more than 40 years. It
works today as well as it did when I first bought it. It might not
work AS WELL as a better designed hammer, and probably didn't when it
was new, but nonetheless, it has lasted.

I would not expect any electric tool to last 20 years of hard use without
maintenance.

Maintenance is required for many mechanical manufactured goods, that's
true. But some things not only don't need maintenance, but there's
nothing to maintain. This is true of speakers. How does one maintain a
speaker? By not abusing it? Well, I suppose you call that maintenance if
you stretched the definition of the word somewhat. Speakers can be
repaired but not really "maintained" like a car or a washing machine.

Respectfully, "maintenance" means replacing parts before they break.
Apparently your school of maintenance might be "allow it to fail", then
replace the failed part. Try that on the timing-belt in an interference
engine in a car and you will understand the difference between maintenance
and repair. Replacing crossover capacitors before they open (or worse, short)
is the functional equivalent of replacing a timing belt. Cleaning pots and
connectors is the functional equivalent of an oil-change. Removing dust from
drivers, oiling the wood - it comes down to care-and-feeding.

Also with all due respect, maintenance, of a car, for instance,
consists of changing the oil, topping-off the brake fluid, power
steering fluid, keeping the tires inflated to the proper pressure,
etc. These things MIGHT be to keep the cat from failing in some way,
but just as often, it's to increase economy, and improve handling
(air in tires, for instance. So maintenance might, in some
circumstances be defined as replacing things before they fail, but
just as often it means keeping the mechanism in top operating
condition for other reasons.

Speakers are the functional equivalent of electrical tools. And have
internal
components, parts and pieces subject to time (not use) related
deterioration
- capacitors, speaker surrounds, glues and so forth. Some of which may be
relevant, some not. In summary, parts may deteriorate with use, certain
types of magnets for one, some by abuse, some by age, some by all three.
Further, what constitutes 'abuse' will also change with age.

This is true, yet I know someone who is 83 years old and owns two
Electrovoice floor-standing 3-way speaker systems that he bought back in
the 1950's. Both still work fine (they don't sound all that good by
modern standards, but then they never did.)

At this time, I have six (6) sets of speakers in use. SNIP But all of
the others from the Maggies to the AR3as have had
maintenance or repairs made to one extent or another from a new ribbon
tweeter for the Maggies (my fault and a $140 fix) to a complete rebuild
of
the crossovers (AR3as), to new surrounds to refinishing the exteriors and
installation of new grille-cloth.

Installing new surrounds may be a PITA, but they are cheap

and don't take much time. Nothing like peeling raisins or counting
sugar...
As only one example.

This is repair, not maintenance.

I respectfully disagree. Between age and materials-choices, things wear out
and fail. One may get ahead of the bus and *maintain* prior to failure, or be
under the bus and wait until a catastrophic failure takes place and then make
a *repair*. I prefer the former over the latter. And using the Surrounds as
the example - they give plenty of warning before they fail - and so allow
replacement prior to a crisis and _BEFORE_ potential voice-coil damage.

OK, how do you replace a speaker element BEFORE it fails? How would
you even know? If it's something you can hear, then by definition, it
has already failed.

But, if you think you are being ill-used by getting only 20 years out of
your
speakers - I truly suggest you should build your own. In that way you may
have complete control of what goes into them, what you expect from them
and
the longevity you wish to achieve. There is lots of information out there
on how to do it as well.

In the case of speakers, there are things at play here over which the
consumer has no control. I mentioned a few of them a couple of weeks ago
on this forum. Glue that attacks the grid wires on older Magneplanars,
foam surrounds that deteriorate due to pollutants in the air, cones that
dry out due to the low humidity and forced air heat used in many parts
of the country, etc.

I keep Maggies of a certain vintage and I am well aware of that phenomenon. I
keep them out of direct sunlight. Not really a big deal. In my conversations
with Magnepan over the years, they have been extremely forthcoming on how to
prevent coil separation - and what to do should it start - starting with
black 'socks'. IOW, their customer-service has been first-rate, direct,
unapologetic, and supportive. Their parts, when needed, have been quite
inexpensive relative to their competition. That ribbon tweeter cost me a
total of $140, including shipping a 6' PVC tube in both directions (they
wanted the core back for rebuild). An AR3a tweeter would run me $80 or so,
and the 'core' would be landfill.

Paper cones may be easily maintained against 'drying out' - albeit at an
initial alteration of the properties of the paper - as I remember, the
formula goes something like: 1 part conventional, fresh rubber cement, 1 part
conventional fresh contact Cement, 10 parts VM&P Naptha, painted on the cone
with a soft brush and allowed to dry for 48 hours in a dust-free environment.
This will soften the paper during the drying process, and add a tiny bit of
weight overall - but the alternative is re-coning - an imprecise (relative to
cone weight) and painstaking process at least.

The only recourse here is to replace the damaged components. After 20
years, it's unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to accept the burden
of the costs of such repairs, but you'd be surprised at the number of
high-end manufacturers who will do just that!

They do, and to my way of thinking, they should not unless it is for a
recognized process/materials failure that they coulda-shoulda known - similar
to a vehicle recall, or a bad run of parts, or the equivalent. Point being
that if they are truly competent and high-end (using Magnepan as an example),
you, the rest of the world an I want them to remain in business, supportive
of their product and so forth. Expecting them to bleed ad infinitum
threatens that survival for no good reason whatsoever. That they _have_ the
parts or are willing to _make_ the parts at a reasonable cost and that they
are willing to make any repair to any of their speakers, also at a reasonable
cost is far more than enough in my opinion.

I agree, but some companies just believe that it's good customer
relations, and it doesn't cost them that much. Also, many of these
small companies take real pride in their equipment and provide great
service to their customers simply because they know that said
customers could have bought cheaper wares from some other vendor, but
chose to pay extra and buy this company's goods instead. They
appreciate the commitment and will often bend over backward to insure
the customer's satisfaction. I have an Audio Research SP 15 that I
have owned for many years. Recently it developed a popping sound in
one channel. I swapped the tubes, and the popping remained. so I
contacted AR. they said to box it up and send it back to them. I did
just that. I had to pay shipping both ways, but when I got it back,
they had changed a number of components and charged me nothing for the
repair- even though the preamp in question was almost 25 years old!
That's customer service. BTW, that SP-15 is still one of the most
neutral-sounding preamps ever made - in spite of it being a tubed
component.

I keep a lot of vintage equipment. And I rebuild a fair amount of it that I
have rescued from landfill, junk-piles and/or dusty shelves in the back of
repair-shops. I see on a regular basis the difference between 'maintenance'
and 'failure', much of that failure being utterly needless - the proverbial
pound of care caused by careful avoidance of that ounce of prevention. The
simple act of removing a grille-cloth to dust the drivers (yes, dust goes
through the cloth) will allow for a visual inspection of things... you get
the picture.

Sorry for the semi-rant.

While I generally agree that the proverbial "ounce of prevention is
worth a pound of cure" is very valid ( I've owned several vintage
Italian sports cars), I still say that some things cannot be
maintained that way and the only recourse is to fix 'em when they
fail.

[Peter Wieck]

Much snippage.

A few points:

a) Replacing before failure. Use speaker surrounds as one excellent example.. Those surrounds give plenty of warning prior to failure. Checking them even semi-annually is enough. Similarly the paper cones if so equipped - treating them if they start to seem brittle (again, plenty of warning) will stop the problem dead in its tracks.

b) Oil changes vs. belt replacement: A full-service oil-change for my VW TDI costs approximately $140 including parts and labor. Synthetic diesel/ash-rated oil, filter and tire rotation. That is 0.048% of the value of the vehicle. Neglecting it could cost thousands. As to greater efficiency and operational economy, if that were the only reason, it would be a poor exchange - and there would be no reason at all not to keep the original oil in place, just topping up as needed. Do the math: my average economy for my style and type of driving is 36.8 MPG since-new (72,000 miles). Assume per VW an oil change every 10,000 miles, and diesel fuel at $4.10/gallon. Assume a 10% fall-off from dirty oil (less than that most likely). Oil = 6 x $11. Filter at $9. $75 in material -labor at $65. That is 34 gallons of fuel. 271 gallons gets me 10,000 miles at present. Assume 33.12 mpg (10% penalty) for not changing the oil. That comes to 301 gallons of fuel. Cheaper not to change the oil by $16.40. And do this over and over. Then change the engine at 100,000 miles (if not sooner) for $8,000+.

Getting to belt replacement: should the timing belt fail on an interference engine, at least a new head will be required - assuming no additional damage. Starting at $2,000 or so. So, that is maintenance. Not repair. Not a wait-until-failure item.

Tying it back to speakers: Cones, surrounds, crossovers, contacts, cleaning, proper fusing, occasional fuse replacement (you don't think they wear? Ever watched a fuse running near the blow-point? The element dances!) all are maintenance issues or items prone to wear and/or age. And their eventual failure has nothing to do with OM materials choices, execution or workmanship. It has to do with an electro-mechanical device operating at hundreds to thousands of cycles per second over long periods of time.

One more non-speaker example: I am rebuilding a small integrated amp right now that suffered a cascade effect from a single failed 68-ohm, 1/2 watt resistor on the right-channel driver board. The one on the other board is nearly black - that will get replaced too - both with 1-watt units. But had someone actually had a look at these boards before letting out the magic smoke and noticed the blackening resistors, it _all_ could have been prevented by replacing two $0.40 resistors. Now, it is a transistor driver pair, two output transistors, six other resistors and one capacitor, my labor being therapeutic, discounted. OK, David Hafler ran everything at the bleeding edge of failure, so one might be able to blame the maker here for using a 1/2 watt resistor. But that is still not the point. Repeat after me: Cascade effect. That is what I am trying to convey and how to prevent it. It may be a PITA to lift the hood on occasion with audio stuff - and even lifting the hood will not discover everything, but at least give yourself half-a-chance to avoid catastrophic failure.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA