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#81
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
In article ,
Le Artiste wrote: "Joseph Oberlander" emitted : Still, Geo Metro/Aveo fuel efficiency in a Jetta What is the Jetta equivalent in Europe, do you know? Is that a Passat? Looking at the VW website, I'd guess it's a Bora. Stephen |
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#82
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:49:43 GMT, MINe 109
wrote: In article , Le Artiste wrote: "Joseph Oberlander" emitted : Still, Geo Metro/Aveo fuel efficiency in a Jetta What is the Jetta equivalent in Europe, do you know? Is that a Passat? No, a Passat is a Passat. Always has been. US is a little late to the Passat show. Looking at the VW website, I'd guess it's a Bora. And two of them would Bora Bora, right? |
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#83
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of somethinglike this?
Le Artiste wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" emitted : Still, Geo Metro/Aveo fuel efficiency in a Jetta What is the Jetta equivalent in Europe, do you know? Is that a Passat? No, it's the smaller model right below the Passat. IIRC, it gets something like 50 MPG Highway or something close to that. (checks) 38/46 MPG on the Jetta with manual transmission. 14.5 gal tank. It used to be higher, but that was the previous generation models which appear to have been quite a bit lighter. The engine appears to have been tuned a bit more for performance than economy as well compared to the previous models. That works out to about 42-44MPG in normal driving. Costs a little less than a Prius as well. |
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#84
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
dave weil said: Looking at the VW website, I'd guess it's a Bora. And two of them would Bora Bora, right? Only if you're truly desperate for a bad pun. |
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#85
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of somethinglike this?
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Codifus" wrote in message news 
Arny Krueger wrote: "Alex Rodriguez" wrote in message In article . net, says... Alex Rodriguez wrote: In article , says... Joseph Oberlander said: The VW TDI engine is slick. Too bad it's in the lower-end VW/AUDI models here in the U.S. Too bad VAG (and BMW, and Mercedes) doesn't have the guts to promote diesel engines in the USA. You should see (and hear and drive!) the V6 and V8 diesels! Up to 500 HP and torque up to 650 Nm. And still an efficiency of about 10 km/liter :-) Diesels have a reputation in the US for being loud, dirty and stinky. That is why they don't sell well here. You can think Ford and GM for that mess. Mercedes too. Their diesels fit all three descriptions above. Agreed. But it is not just that. Diesel fuel turns to jelly below 10 degrees F. Think of how that works out in places like Minneapolis. That's easily solved by mixing it with kerosene during the winter months. It may also damage the engine, or substantially decrease power. Not really. There's a 1985 Mercedez Benz 300D in our family. It's been handed down to everyone. It's got 250,000 kms on it and is still running. It regular went through the Kerosene mix in winter, and I don't recall any power loss with it. I never quite thought of that car in terms of power  CD |
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#86
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
Joseph Oberlander wrote in message link.net...
John Carrier wrote: (snip) I have several friends who have Bose. The deal-maker on their buying decision was the small size of the satellites. A lot of wives don't like the intrusion speakers make on the decor. The stacked cubes bring peace to the family. Agree. What Bose does well is build many products that fit well into many homes and Bose communicates that to consumers, enough so that consumers are willing to pay prices that are often a bit high, yet (obviously) within range of many consumers. (Been there and done that. The wife wasn't really happy with the "compromise" NHT superzeros ... she wanted them hidden behind cabinet doors etc. Well, I won that one. Of course I'm supporting her three horses with one on the way ... ) The simple way to crush Bose and get better WAF Actually, in my home my wife doesn't really pay attention to the gear and speakers. It's actually been me who's gotten tired of big, boxy speakers and gotten more interested in smaller satellite/sub speaker systems. I've gotten tired of looking at big, bulky gear that I don't use a lot anyway and that consumes space in our home. is to look at the KEF HT system. The cubic volume of the cabinets is a bit larger than the Bose microcubes, but the visual impact is smaller due to the rounded edges ***AND*** the integrated mounts. Just mention that the Bose require mounts to place on the walls. This adds a lot to the visual size. The KEF - a small swivel mount in the back. I try to tell everyone who wants a Bose system about them. No one that has listened and looked at the KEF system has bought Bose. At least not that I know of. Superior sound and looks. Too bad that at least where I am in the US, KEF has no local dealers, while Circuit City and many, many other dealers sell Bose. I've got no way to hear the KEF speakers, unfortunately. NHT has one small local dealer, but that's a semi-obscure audiophile dealer. I suspect part of the reason brands like Athena, Infinity, and Polk have worked their way into places like Best Buy and Circuit City is so these brands can compete against Bose in the same places that sell Bose. If KEF or NHT really want to take on Bose, they'll need to step into the ring with Bose. |
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#87
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
George M. Middius wrote in message . ..
Joseph Oberlander said: That is exceedingly dumb. That's like saying gasoline is widely used because people don't know you can buy a diesel automobile. That actually is true as well. Most people don't. We've had a period of time when the VW TDI diesels were the only diesel cars on the market, I think. Even Mercedes stopped supplying new diesel cars. But this may have changed or be about to change. Whatever the case, new diesel cars have little presence in the US or in consumers' thinking. Gas is easier to get. I think there will be a diesel Jeep Liberty (this year?). I've never met a single adult in this country who believed there are no diesel automobiles. I believe you're pulling this claim from a sunshine-free zone. Take the new Toyota Pruis. The VW Golf with the TDI engine gets better mileage. But has much worse air pollution, which has always been a problem with diesel cars sold in the US. Better in fact, than a Geo Metro did - but it was never marketed as the highest MPG vehicle in the U.S. Since the requirement to include gas mileage in ads was dropped during the Reagan era, gas mileage has almost never been advertised. I don't recall seeing ads (or much sales, either) of the Chevy/Geo Metro (AKA Suzuki Swift). BTW, being interested in MPG, and being cheap also, I drove a new Metro once. It seemed just too small for US conditions. It was OK in town, but on the freeway I felt quite vulnerable in the Metro. Why are you changing the subject? Maybe because Bose has been talked to death? Do you think the few people who buy diesel cars do so for the gas mileage? I'd think they buy diesel cars for the MPG. Diesel car engines don't always have better longevity than gas car engines. Do you really not know what the big impediment is for most of us who don't buy diesel cars? Lack of availability of diesel cars and diesel fuel for cars would be too obstacles. They sold a LOT of Geo Metros Really? I never saw many. Cars like the Civic vastly outsold the Metro in my part of the US. Honda has had many high-MPG Civic variants also, such as the CRX and current Civic hybrid. with that "highest MPG in the U.S." claim, despite it being completely false. Assuming your quote is correct, perhaps the claim was for gasoline? I'd probably consider a diesel car, if there were more choices, and if hybrids weren't already here and established. Also, the Passat is now the only VW recommended by Consumer Reports, due to reliability problems with the Golf and Jetta, so if high MPG was most important to me, I'd buy a Honda or Toyota hybrid, not (for example) a VW Golf TDI. YMMV! (snip) |
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#88
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
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#89
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of somethinglike this?
Oliver Costich wrote:
Too bad that at least where I am in the US, KEF has no local dealers, while Circuit City and many, many other dealers sell Bose. I've got no way to hear the KEF speakers, unfortunately. NHT has one small local dealer, but that's a semi-obscure audiophile dealer. They do. Where do you live - I can find the local dealer near you in five minutes. I suspect part of the reason brands like Athena, Infinity, and Polk have worked their way into places like Best Buy and Circuit City is so these brands can compete against Bose in the same places that sell Bose. If KEF or NHT really want to take on Bose, they'll need to step into the ring with Bose. There are two worlds in audio. Wal Mart and Circuit City, and the rest of the entire spectrum. Only a small fraction of what's available in audio equipment is sold at the mass marketers. Sure, it makes you lots of money, but it's all consumer-grade level at best, barring the odd exception here and there. Would you go to K-Mart for auto parts or to a dedicated auto parts store? Go to a dedicated audio store. See what is available for less money than Bose sometime. I especially like the KEF microsystem and the Tannoy R1. And spend so much on marketing, like Bose, that their products are also vastly overpriced. What Bose does well is make people belive it's good when it's anything but. The sales people are trained to reinforce the marketing because that's where the money is. Yep. Same reason techs continue to harp on the advantages of Windows. It gives them job security while they spend their free time learning UNIX. There's no real money in UNIX - and you can't use all your fancy certifications in Windows to get a fatter paycheck, either. So they drag their feet and go on and on about how Windows is "better". Sure - because that's what meakes them the most profit and pays their bills. I had this same discussion with my friend the other day. He's looking for a small home speaker system, preferably in-wall or very small footprint. He spends time around his friends who do work on HT installs for the ultra-wealthy and has a skewed view. I tried to tell him that they are recommending the products to their clients that make them the most money/profit, but his response was to claim that unless it sounded good, the installers/consultants wouldn't recommend it. As if. He has this odd idea that unless his friends sell it, it's crap. My counterpoint was that yes, if you were making a living from it, you'd want the highest profit options you could find, but as a consumer looking to put in a system yourself, you'd want the opposite. He also doesn't believe in buying direct from the manufacturer, as if it were any good, his friends would be selling it.(you can see the circular logic here) I then asked him what they thought about electrostatic and planar speakers. He said he never heard of them and had never seen his friends install any. Lol. I guess if you hang around rubes who sell B&O and Bose all day, you never realize what true high-end sound is. |
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#90
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Whey do people buy Bose Acousticmass systems instead of something like this?
Joseph Oberlander wrote in message nk.net...
Oliver Costich wrote: Too bad that at least where I am in the US, KEF has no local dealers, while Circuit City and many, many other dealers sell Bose. I've got no way to hear the KEF speakers, unfortunately. NHT has one small local dealer, but that's a semi-obscure audiophile dealer. They do. Where do you live - I can find the local dealer near you in five minutes. Thanks, but I'm not in the market now. But I haven't seen either brand in my part of the US in any dealers, ever. Actually, that you'd need to tell me where to find a dealer is part of the problem that the other speaker companies have. I know where the Bose dealers are, because Bose gear is sold in so many stores. It's easy to find. I suspect part of the reason brands like Athena, Infinity, and Polk have worked their way into places like Best Buy and Circuit City is so these brands can compete against Bose in the same places that sell Bose. If KEF or NHT really want to take on Bose, they'll need to step into the ring with Bose. There are two worlds in audio. Wal Mart and Circuit City, and the rest of the entire spectrum. Only a small fraction of what's available in audio equipment is sold at the mass marketers. Sure, it makes you lots of money, but it's all consumer-grade level at best, barring the odd exception here and there. Agree. And the exceptions may not be worth seeking out, because the huge stores usually don't have decent listening rooms. For example, I've tried to listen to the Athenas at Best Buy, but it's impossible to hear them well enough make a decision in that store's environment. There's so much competition in speakers that I might as well shop and listen at a smaller specialty dealer where I really can hear speakers better. Would you go to K-Mart for auto parts or to a dedicated auto parts store? Well, I live slightly closer to the parts store, and the stock is more complete too. Go to a dedicated audio store. See what is available for less money than Bose sometime. I especially like the KEF microsystem and the Tannoy R1. Again, no local dealers. But there are other good brands at my local dealers. And spend so much on marketing, like Bose, that their products are also vastly overpriced. What Bose does well is make people belive it's good when it's anything but. If people buy Bose and are happy, OK by me. I've owned some Bose gear, some of which I liked, some of which I disliked, so I've got some experience. I've seen what Bose does well, which is put together gear that works for many typical consumers in their homes, well enough that consumers are willing to pay the somewhat high prices. The sales people are trained to reinforce the marketing because that's where the money is. Yep. Same reason techs continue to harp on the advantages of Windows. For many of us, it's a Windows world, whether we like it or not. It's not really a big deal to me. (snip) I had this same discussion with my friend the other day. He's looking for a small home speaker system, preferably in-wall or very small footprint. He spends time around his friends who do work on HT installs for the ultra-wealthy and has a skewed view. I tried to tell him that they are recommending the products to their clients that make them the most money/profit, but his response was to claim that unless it sounded good, the installers/consultants wouldn't recommend it. As if. He has this odd idea that unless his friends sell it, it's crap. My counterpoint was that yes, if you were making a living from it, you'd want the highest profit options you could find, but as a consumer looking to put in a system yourself, you'd want the opposite. I'm not sure you can win any points with this guy by telling him that what his friends recommend isn't good. If he wants to buy what his friends sell, there can be more reasons than just the quality of what they sell, and your possibly casting his friends as greedy and foolish won't help. If he's happy with what his friends sell, OK by me, whether it's something I'd buy or not. He also doesn't believe in buying direct from the manufacturer, as if it were any good, his friends would be selling it.(you can see the circular logic here) I've bought a lot of audio gear by mail and web, but I no longer do that. Unless I can try the gear, see how it feels, and hear it in person, I don't buy. There's plenty of competition and it's simpler and easier for me to buy only what I can hear first. YMMV. I'll add that many people are suspicious of buying via mail or web and much prefer to buy only in person. I'm not one of those people; I've bought many things via mail or web, I enjoy doing that, and I've had good experiences. But I've come to realize many people aren't like this. I then asked him what they thought about electrostatic and planar speakers. He said he never heard of them and had never seen his friends install any. Lol. I guess if you hang around rubes who sell B&O and Bose all day, you never realize what true high-end sound is. If you want him to prefer what you like, spend some time with him and let him hear some different gear that suits your taste better--you might win a convert! OTOH, if he's happy with what he already does, you may just want to forget the issue and be happy for him. |
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#92
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Will Brink wrote:
In article , (SalMX70) wrote: The thing I don't understand is if people actually have such low standards that they think that Bose Acousticmass systems sound good, For the same reasons they buy Bud beer and Ugo cars, marketing. There was a time, long ago, that Bose made some pretty good stuff for the time. Now they are just a hugh marketing machine selling at incredible markups. You gotta give them credit for finding enough people to believe in them. |
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#93
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"JimV" wrote in message ... Will Brink wrote: In article , (SalMX70) wrote: The thing I don't understand is if people actually have such low standards that they think that Bose Acousticmass systems sound good, For the same reasons they buy Bud beer and Ugo cars, marketing. There was a time, long ago, that Bose made some pretty good stuff for the time. Now they are just a hugh marketing machine selling at incredible markups. You gotta give them credit for finding enough people to believe in them. Well, certainly I am no fan of Bose, and find their audio products to be very very overpriced and deliver mediocre performance at best. I don't like them, you can find far far better for less if you know what you're looking for or listening for. That being said, there are lots and lots of worse crap out there than Bose, and a lot of Bose customers have moved up from that market amd to them Bose is really a significant step up, if you can believe it. Most people are not audiophiles, or hobbiests, as most of the people who frequent this and other online groups are. Many have terrible shelf or rack systems, or have potentially good systems that are placed and used in such a way they sound terrible. I've lost count of the number of people's homes I've been in with speakers placed behind the sofa, one on one wall another on the adjacent wall 90 degrees out, sitting on the floor behind a planter, etc. Absolutely hideous sounding for both imaging and freq response. These people want a brand name they trust (which is in large part determined by advertising and what their neighbors, also audio neophytes, like or respect), that is invisible (hence the acoustimess systems) that sounds good to them. It ain't hifi, but in the right circumstances it can sound not bad (like a big old radio), pleasing for casual listening, and easy to place without taking up space. Believe it or not, there are people who do not place their decorating at the mercy of acoustics or speaker placement. For these people, Bose is a step up and they will be happy with them. In this case, ignorance is bliss, they'll put their systems up, and never worry about speaker stands, spikes, imaging, tweaking, acoustic treatments, or anything else. Most don't even know about wiring, and the simplified wiring of Bose is a big help. Bose is a genius, not so much at acoustics (though ol'Amar ain't no slouch, never underestimate his intelligence or knowledge, he is a sharp man), but at identifying and creating a market, and giving the average joe products they find satisfying and reliable while making a ton of money doing it. I should be so lucky to have his money and success. So, for those of you so inclined to listen, there's why Bose is successful and why he actually does produce a product that fills a need. You may resume your Bose bashing unimpeded, hell, I'll join in. I was at an AES meeting where the subject of degraded bass damping in multiple chamber reflex enclosures was the subject of luncheon discussion among some of us engineers at the local pizza place. The joke was that the very first bass note made by the very first Acoustimass module was still rattling around in there and could still be heard. Made the Bose engineers wince, but they are used to the jokes by now, or should be. Making a mediocre product and charging a fortune for it doesn't bother me, a fool and his money and all that, but what does irritate the hell out of me is Bose's litigeous nature, suing over bad reviews, and employing a massive team of attorneys to sue the pants off or threaten to sue anyone marketing anything similar, claiming as Bose inventions things that are basic knowledge and have plenty of prior art to prove the aren't their inventions. Unfortunately, Tacitus was right when he said "Agree, for the law is costly." The threat of suits has kept a lot of similar product off the market. |
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#94
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The great unwashed dont give a damn about sound quality, they care about
appearances aand what other people are buying. People who buy "acoustimess " systems arent trying to get a true hi-fidelity system, they just want to outdo the other "home theater in a box " purchasers in the trailer park Which is badically what DOZE is, a higher end clock radio for the ignorant redneck who won a little cash playing bingo last week "Will Brink" wrote in message ... In article , (SalMX70) wrote: The thing I don't understand is if people actually have such low standards that they think that Bose Acousticmass systems sound good, For the same reasons they buy Bud beer and Ugo cars, marketing. -- Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/ |
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#95
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"JimV" wrote in message ... Will Brink wrote: In article , (SalMX70) wrote: The thing I don't understand is if people actually have such low standards that they think that Bose Acousticmass systems sound good, For the same reasons they buy Bud beer and Ugo cars, marketing. There was a time, long ago, that Bose made some pretty good stuff for the time. **Bull****. Now they are just a hugh marketing machine selling at incredible markups. You gotta give them credit for finding enough people to believe in them. **Nope. I give them credit for spending huge amounts on litigation, patent attorneys and marketing. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
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#96
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On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:01:25 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote: "JimV" wrote in message ... Will Brink wrote: In article , (SalMX70) wrote: The thing I don't understand is if people actually have such low standards that they think that Bose Acousticmass systems sound good, For the same reasons they buy Bud beer and Ugo cars, marketing. There was a time, long ago, that Bose made some pretty good stuff for the time. **Bull****. Agreed. From the first 901, which I used to sell Advents on sound quality by comparing to Bose without even mentioning the 250% higher cost, to the latest Acousticmess, it's all crap. Now they are just a hugh marketing machine selling at incredible markups. You gotta give them credit for finding enough people to believe in them. **Nope. I give them credit for spending huge amounts on litigation, patent attorneys and marketing. |
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