specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Vine wrote
specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Is this some kind of pre-set level in a processor or program? More info please.

specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Is this some kind of pre-set level in a processor or program? More info
please.

processor, but i mean you can really compare the levels, two eq's,
preamp level, overdrive level, patch level, etc.. completely different
for each one, they're two different distortions and i have them saved
so that they pretty much the same volume coming out of my speakers or
amp, but when i record them in cool edit, you'd think one was twice as
loud as the other.. is it frequencies or something?

The way I read this is, you're visually comparing the Peak volumes and your
ears are comparing the AVERAGE volumes i.e. the RMS values.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about.... it's to do with the amount of
ENERGY that is being used up to create the sound... something with a higher
AVERAGE level will be using more energy than something with a high PEAK and
a low STEADY STATE level.

Imagine you have a narrow river, which then opens up into a large lake, and
then goes back into a narrow river again. Think of how much water you can
get down it... then imagine a WIDE river, which stays at a constant width
the whole way (but never gets as wide as that lake).

It sounds like a compressor may help you out.

"Vine" wrote in message
... specifically distorted
guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes
out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon
playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Is this some kind of pre-set level in a processor or program? More info
please.

processor, but i mean you can really compare the levels, two eq's,
preamp level, overdrive level, patch level, etc.. completely different
for each one, they're two different distortions and i have them saved
so that they pretty much the same volume coming out of my speakers or
amp, but when i record them in cool edit, you'd think one was twice as
loud as the other.. is it frequencies or something?

Vine wrote:

specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..








I think the difference yoy find is caused by a diifference in dynamic
range. The one that reads a lower level but sounds just as loud has had
some compression. Apparantly your distortion box is also a compressor.

My regards

Bert Kraaijpoel

(Vine) wrote:

specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon playback

neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Dont think that the meters tell you how "loud" a sound is going to be to one's
ears. The meters only tell you how much headroom is left in the audio device,
be it recorder, compressor, whatever. Two sounds that read identical levels on
meters can, and frequently do, sound different in volume to the ear. There are
all kinds of reasons.

It could be a matter of the natural compression that occurs with distortion.
The compression will allow for a higher average signal level without the peaks
being any louder. Also, the harmonic content of the distortion and the overall
tonal color of the sound will contribute to how loud the sound appears to be.
In addition, the human ear is more sensitive to midrange frequencies. Meters,
as far as I know, are equal opportunity indicators and respond equally to all
frequencies within the bandpass region.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

"Vine" wrote in message
...
specifically distorted guitar. i have one distortion that i seem to be
able to record at much higher levels than my other distortions, and its
my fuzziest and brightest distortion. now i have both distortions, both
very distorted and full, playing the same part at approximately the same
volume (to my ears) except if one records at -12db the other one comes
out
-6db with a whole lot less room to hard limit. and even still upon
playback
neither sounds louder than the other, what gives? its like i have dark
matter taking up room..

Is this some kind of pre-set level in a processor or program? More info
please.

processor, but i mean you can really compare the levels, two eq's,
preamp level, overdrive level, patch level, etc.. completely different
for each one, they're two different distortions and i have them saved
so that they pretty much the same volume coming out of my speakers or
amp, but when i record them in cool edit, you'd think one was twice as
loud as the other.. is it frequencies or something?

Hummmmm....

That's a very interesting problem the way you describe it, and I'm a little
curious to hear your fix if you ever find one.

I agree with the other responses about peak meters, and peak vs. average,
and possibly a compressor being the answer. But something else occurred to
me.

Are you changing the level getting to cool edit between the two different
takes of different distortion presets? If not, I'm wondering if you might
have the gain structure of your recording setup such that an almost
imperceptible volume change between two presets of the processor alone
results in a much bigger difference in the recorded average volume.

Since you are probably only monitoring the output of the processor going to
the input of your PC, and not the actual PC's output set to input
monitoring, the difference wouldn't be apparent while recording, only on
playback. By input monitoring, I mean pro type cards that do true input
monitoring, vs. having a built-in mixer that repeats the input and not the
recorded value.

Examples of built-in mixer monitoring are the Sound Blaster Live, and the
Aardvark Q10. But since the Q10 is a professional type card, it has low
latency drivers and can be used to monitor the input through the software,
and you can hear what is being recorded while it is being recorded (which I
don't think Cool Edit can do, BTW). With the mixer, you don't really know
what level is being recorded until you play it back.

Rick

Dont think that the meters tell you how "loud" a sound is going to be to one's
ears. The meters only tell you how much headroom is left in the audio device,
be it recorder, compressor, whatever. Two sounds that read identical levels on
meters can, and frequently do, sound different in volume to the ear. There are
all kinds of reasons.

right exactly, if i record them to the same db level they will 'sound' like
they are at two very different volumes, and therefore if i record them
so that they 'sound' like the same volume, the db levels in cool edit are
very different and one is seriously lacking headroom compared to the other.

It could be a matter of the natural compression that occurs with distortion.
The compression will allow for a higher average signal level without the peaks
being any louder. Also, the harmonic content of the distortion and the overall
tonal color of the sound will contribute to how loud the sound appears to be.
In addition, the human ear is more sensitive to midrange frequencies. Meters,
as far as I know, are equal opportunity indicators and respond equally to all
frequencies within the bandpass region.

so whats the best way to lower the peaks on a given sound without lowering
its 'percieved' volume? compressor (i have this as an effect option on
my gt6 but don't know how to use it :), lowering certain frequencies,
etc.. some kind of trick, kind of like mp3s vs wavs, save half the space
by getting rid of the stuff you don't hear anyways? know what i mean?
thanks

It sounds like a compressor may help you out.

got that on the pedal, i'll try to figure it out tonight, thanks!
if you have any tips to easy my learning curve let me know

That's a very interesting problem the way you describe it, and I'm a little
curious to hear your fix if you ever find one.

maybe i described it wrong but its a matter of real volume vs percieved
volume i guess.

Are you changing the level getting to cool edit between the two different
takes of different distortion presets?

the levels between the two distortions are completely different, each
distortion has a pedal master level and eq, preamp level and eq,
overdrive gain, level and eq. there's no way to compare that, but
they're both set up so they 'sound' like they're the same volume,
problem is in cool edit where even though they both sound like they're
the same volume, one has 6db of headroom less than the other.

Vine wrote:

Garthrr wrote:

Dont think that the meters tell you how "loud" a sound is going to
be to one's ears. The meters only tell you how much headroom is left
in the audio device, be it recorder, compressor, whatever. Two
sounds that read identical levels on meters can, and frequently do,
sound different in volume to the ear. There are all kinds of reasons.

Agreed. Main reasons are peak-to-average ratio and spectral balance.

Perceived loudness tends to follow average levels, not peak levels.

Perceived loudness is greater for waves where the energy is concentrated in
frequency ranges where the ears are more sensitive.

As you say there are other reasons, but these are the two biggies.

right exactly, if i record them to the same db level they will
'sound' like they are at two very different volumes, and therefore if
i record them so that they 'sound' like the same volume, the db
levels in cool edit are very different and one is seriously lacking
headroom compared to the other.

Agreed.

It could be a matter of the natural compression that occurs with
distortion. The compression will allow for a higher average signal
level without the peaks being any louder.

Agreed.

Also, the harmonic content
of the distortion and the overall tonal color of the sound will
contribute to how loud the sound appears to be.

That's another effect. Music that is distorted often seems to be perceived
to be louder.

In addition, the
human ear is more sensitive to midrange frequencies.

Agreed.


Meters, as far
as I know, are equal opportunity indicators and respond equally to
all frequencies within the bandpass region.

Agreed, though people have made complex metering circuits that tended to
measure perceived loudness. Hewlett Packard had one.

This looks like a modern example of a loudness meter:

http://www.dolby.com/products/LM100/


so whats the best way to lower the peaks on a given sound without
lowering its 'percieved' volume? compressor (i have this as an effect
option on my gt6 but don't know how to use it :),

I've used compressors, limiters, and manual editing with a digital editor.
Sometimes the peaks are relatively infrequent, and it's feasible to manually
edit them.

This post gives the details of my manual editing technique:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=m_...%40comcast.com

lowering certain frequencies, etc..

Use a parametric or graphic eq to increase gain in the 3KHz - 5 Khz range.
The ear is most sensitive around 4 KHz.

Similar scenario is for really heavy sounds generally palm muted notes on th
lower strings tend to give you a bass spike that means that you have to
record at lower volume to void clipping...if that's the problem, a multiband
compressor that compresses just the lows might help here - I'm not convinced
that the compressor on your pedal will do the trick as my experience with
pedals is that compressors suck. The other possibility is just that like
somone else said, the overall sound looks more 'dense' onscreen because it's
effectively compressed to hell and back (which is essentially what
distortion is - extreme limiting). So a more distorted sound will give you
more even levels than a clean sound, but no more 'louder'. More treble will
also give the impression of being louder at high volume.

"Vine" wrote in message
...
That's a very interesting problem the way you describe it, and I'm a
little
curious to hear your fix if you ever find one.

maybe i described it wrong but its a matter of real volume vs percieved
volume i guess.

Are you changing the level getting to cool edit between the two different
takes of different distortion presets?

the levels between the two distortions are completely different, each
distortion has a pedal master level and eq, preamp level and eq,
overdrive gain, level and eq. there's no way to compare that, but
they're both set up so they 'sound' like they're the same volume,
problem is in cool edit where even though they both sound like they're
the same volume, one has 6db of headroom less than the other.






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Agreed with all the points made here - the best way I've come across to get
more headroom out of a guitar is a multiband compressor. Cool Edit 2000 has
one if you're using that (Transform - amplitude - dynamics processing) it
only does one band at a time, but still useful. Takes a bit of learning to
figure out how to use (there must be hundreds of articles on compression all
over the net), but well worth it. Worth it's weight in gold for heavy metal
where you get those bottom end spikes from the palm mutes.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Vine wrote:

Garthrr wrote:

Dont think that the meters tell you how "loud" a sound is going to
be to one's ears. The meters only tell you how much headroom is left
in the audio device, be it recorder, compressor, whatever. Two
sounds that read identical levels on meters can, and frequently do,
sound different in volume to the ear. There are all kinds of reasons.

Agreed. Main reasons are peak-to-average ratio and spectral balance.

Perceived loudness tends to follow average levels, not peak levels.

Perceived loudness is greater for waves where the energy is concentrated
in
frequency ranges where the ears are more sensitive.

As you say there are other reasons, but these are the two biggies.

right exactly, if i record them to the same db level they will
'sound' like they are at two very different volumes, and therefore if
i record them so that they 'sound' like the same volume, the db
levels in cool edit are very different and one is seriously lacking
headroom compared to the other.

Agreed.

It could be a matter of the natural compression that occurs with
distortion. The compression will allow for a higher average signal
level without the peaks being any louder.

Agreed.

Also, the harmonic content
of the distortion and the overall tonal color of the sound will
contribute to how loud the sound appears to be.

That's another effect. Music that is distorted often seems to be perceived
to be louder.

In addition, the
human ear is more sensitive to midrange frequencies.

Agreed.


Meters, as far
as I know, are equal opportunity indicators and respond equally to
all frequencies within the bandpass region.

Agreed, though people have made complex metering circuits that tended to
measure perceived loudness. Hewlett Packard had one.

This looks like a modern example of a loudness meter:

http://www.dolby.com/products/LM100/


so whats the best way to lower the peaks on a given sound without
lowering its 'percieved' volume? compressor (i have this as an effect
option on my gt6 but don't know how to use it :),

I've used compressors, limiters, and manual editing with a digital editor.
Sometimes the peaks are relatively infrequent, and it's feasible to
manually
edit them.

This post gives the details of my manual editing technique:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=m_...%40comcast.com

lowering certain frequencies, etc..

Use a parametric or graphic eq to increase gain in the 3KHz - 5 Khz range.
The ear is most sensitive around 4 KHz.





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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.574 / Virus Database: 364 - Release Date: 29/01/04

In article , (Vine) writes:

so whats the best way to lower the peaks on a given sound without lowering
its 'percieved' volume?

Thats generally done with a peak limiter, a device which squashes the peaks
only and, ideally, leaves the other audio untouched. You dont want to take all
the life out of the performance, however, and there is a tendency to allow the
visual waveform display to control your decision making when in reality its
what the track *sounds* like that matters. Try to develop a habit of listening
a good part of the time without watching the monitor. When you hear a problem
then the monitor can be useful in helping you to determine what's wrong and in
fixing it.

if i record them to the same db level they will 'sound' like
they are at two very different volumes, and therefore if i record them
so that they 'sound' like the same volume, the db levels in cool edit are
very different and one is seriously lacking headroom compared to the other.

If the waveform on one track is near the fullscale ceiling and for some reason
you need to make two tracks sound the same volume then simply lower the level
of the louder sounding one. There is no need to stay up at the top of the
dynamic range all the time. Furthermore, your going to mix through a mixer
arent you?

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney