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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder
whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In nj.general Bill wrote:
A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. Of course, you should talk with an attorney. It seems to me that the best you can do is get assigned partial fault since you were probably traveling in the woman's blind spot and she obviously made an illegal right turn. If you can avoid making a claim on your insurance, you should do so. A four point moving violation (which is what it is in NJ) plus a claim on your auto insurance will likely put you in the assigned risk pool for auto insurance and you'll pay out your eyeballs for a minimum coverage policy. |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
Bill wrote: However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? You were probably following too closely. But if she made a sudden unsignalled right turn across your path, she at least shares the fault. Since, without her error, no endangerment of person or property was present, I'd say you're not guilty of "careless driving". But I am not a lawyer. -- Matthew T. Russotto "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a modicum of security is a very expensive vice. |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In nj.general 127.0.0.0 wrote:
On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill) wrote: A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. don't bother fighting it, there are no points involved, just pay the fine thank the cop for not writing you for something else and move on Are you nuts? In NJ, a ticket for careless driving carries four points if I am not mistaken. Most auto insurance companies in NJ will deny coverage to anyone with six points. An at fault accident that has been paid out through insurance, plus a 4 point violation, plus anything else that the OP might have on his record will surely result in his being placed in the assigned risk pool which means he won't find coverage for auto insurance for less than $4,000 at best. And the points remain on the record for insurance rating purposes for five years (even after they fall off the official DMV record), plus there's a state surcharge that's charged annually to any NJ driver who has excessive points on his or her record. What's worse is that taking a defensive driving course will not reduce these points for insurance or surcharge purposes. |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
wrote: (Bill) wrote: It will be hard to prove that she was so far left that she was making an illegal right turn. Err, no, it wouldn't. The location of the point of impact should easily demonstrate that she was much further left than he was. This is a violation of 39:4-82 "Upon all highways of sufficient width, except upon one-way streets, the driver of a vehicle shall drive it on the right half of the roadway. He shall drive a vehicle as closely as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway, unless it is impracticable to travel on that side of the roadway, and except when overtaking and passing another vehicle subject to the provisions of sections 39:4-84 and 39:4-85 of this Title" 39:4-126 is also relevant, even without the signalling issue. It will be impossible to prove she didn't signal. True. If I were in your position, I'd plead guilty and be done with it. Why? He might be guilty of following too closely, but not of careless driving. Just because the cop couldn't figure out which of two possibly-valid offenses to charge him with doesn't mean he's guilty of a third offense -- "careless driving" is not a catch-all offense. See if you can sit through a defensive driving class so your insurance doesn't go up. His insurance goes up anyway, for an accident, more for an at-fault accident. You'll probably end up spending less money and time this way than getting an attorney to fight for you. You're at least partially in the wrong no matter what. -- Matthew T. Russotto "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a modicum of security is a very expensive vice. |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
as a driver...yer supposed to expect the un expected...it doesnt matter how wide the road is....if your driver side mirror hit her passanger side mirror, then obviusly u were on her side....if u go to court u will ose...and wil have to pay the court fee as well/////just send in the ticket and pay the fine..no points -- capone ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com capone's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=1723 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=10203 |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Hard to say, but it sounds like you are both at fault. You for being in
the wrong lane, and the other person for not looking before they turned. I hope the other person also got a ticket. ------------------ Alex |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Bill wrote
Was I truely at fault ? Yes. But it is questionable if the charge should be "careless". There seems to be a lot of back and forth in this thread about whether or not the other driver was partially at fault. She was not at fault ... even partially. You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). It doesn't matter if they have come to a complete stop, and they have their left turn signal on, you still must not pass on the right. If there is more then one lane, then it is ok. In the scenario you describe, the other driver was still driving on your side of the road (albeit at the extreme left of the lane) which clearly puts you at fault for pulling up beside her. Should I even try to go to court ? Yes. If you can get the charge reduced it will be worth it. What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? No idea, I don't live in NJ. Where I am (Toronto) if I plead not guilty and then pay the fine anyways (within the set time limit) nothing happens. What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? Probably up to the judge ... not sure what the min and max sentences are. -- Regards, Dan Snooks |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
You both should have got a ticket.
Always fight tickets if you have the time. On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill) wrote: A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW For your latest news http://tabloidland.com |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
I think one thing is critical: is the road (for the direction you
were going) supposed to be a two lane road or not (each direction). If yes, you have a big chance to win. Otherwise, you were probably not supposed to pass. From what you described, I think there is something not clear: you said you were behind her and did not see her turning light, but when her car hit yours, her right mirror hit your left one. That means: 1. you were actully passing her, in which case, you probably won't see the turning light even she had one. ( certainly you were not able to see braking light). Or, 2. You were behind her but did not stop quick enough. I think you need sort them out before taking any actions. SZ (Bill) wrote in message . com... A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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#16
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
My read on this is:
It was a two lane residential road (one each direction) and the driver in front moved to the left (oncoming) lane. The poster thinking that the other driver was turning left, attempted to pass on by, but instead, the front driver was "swinging wide" to make a right turn into the driveway. And so, the front driver, collided with the poster in the traffic lane damaging both vehicles. That's how I read it. IF, that is the case, the poster did not drive with due care and deserves the cite. I personally would have cited both IF it could be determined that the front driver failed to signal. To the original poster: Pay the cite and learn from it. USe MORE care when driving. If you need to, take a driving course. The R.A.D. posters could definatley provide you with the information.... "SZ" wrote in message om... I think one thing is critical: is the road (for the direction you were going) supposed to be a two lane road or not (each direction). If yes, you have a big chance to win. Otherwise, you were probably not supposed to pass. From what you described, I think there is something not clear: you said you were behind her and did not see her turning light, but when her car hit yours, her right mirror hit your left one. That means: 1. you were actully passing her, in which case, you probably won't see the turning light even she had one. ( certainly you were not able to see braking light). Or, 2. You were behind her but did not stop quick enough. I think you need sort them out before taking any actions. SZ (Bill) wrote in message . com... A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:08:25 -0400, "Daniel Snooks"
wrote: You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). Since when? It's perfectly ok to pass a left turner on the right, given enough space. One important case where passing on the right is NOT ok is paradoxically when it's actually legal here! Ouch. It doesn't matter if they have come to a complete stop, and they have their left turn signal on, you still must not pass on the right. Bull**** (assuming there's enough space to undertake, that is). If there is more then one lane, then it is ok. Only legally. On limited access highways, it most certainly is NOT ok (except in a strict legal sense). In the scenario you describe, the other driver was still driving on your side of the road (albeit at the extreme left of the lane) which clearly puts you at fault for pulling up beside her. It is perfectly ok and legal to pass a left turner on the right. It is not ok or legal to pass *on the right shoulder*. -- ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law. '89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt |
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#18
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
I dunno about reckless driving, but one of the following is true:
You were passing on the right, or thinking of passing on the right in a single lane WITHOUT WARNING - no horn, lights, etc. You were driving too close to the other vehicle, one way or the other. Either you were tailgating, or driving on the side, or back in the blind spot. People sitting in my blind spot (or trying to, since I don't tolerate it), really tick me off. Either way, the accident is your baby. She can take the whole dang lane to do her turn - as long as she doesn't cross the center line, she's entitled to the whole darn pavement. Pay the fine, and next time, don't drive close to people. Drive so there's as much room as you can make between you and the nearest car. And if you're thinking of passing on a 2 lane road, do it on the left. On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill) wrote: A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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#19
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Alex Rodriguez wrote:
In article , says... (Bill) wrote: A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. If you get a lawyer and present your case properly in court (and the law is on your side) you should have no trouble. Here (and everywhere I've read the law) you *must* start right turns as close as practicable to the right had edge of the roadway. She obviously didn't do that. If your laws are the same, you shouldn't have trouble. Also, everywhere I've read the law, it is perfectly legal to pass on the right if you remain on the roadway and there is sufficient space if the other car is slowing to prepare for a left turn. Since she was obviously not preparing for a right turn (by not being on the right side of the road) and she was obviously slowing (or you wouldn't have collided), it would be perfectly legal to pass on the right. I would disagree with this simple because the person did not have a left turn signal on. If a car slows down and they don't have a signal on, it is your responsibility to figure out what they are going to do before you attempt to pass them. According to the one-sided account, they did not have a right turn signal on, either. Thus, the person in front failed to properly signal the turn. You should be able to easily beat this. I expect that she won't show up in court to testify against you, so there will be almost nothing presented against you, and you should be able to defend yourself quite easily. Did I mention that if you want to win, you should hire a lawyer? That said, you should have not driven like a pansy. Zip past on the right with authority, or get the hell off her tail. You caused the crash by following too closely and not expecting the quite common, yet illegal practice of swinging wide for a turn. Why is it illegal to swing wide? Because the laws say so. In Anchorage: 9.22.010 Required position and method of turning at intersection. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do as follows: A. Right turns. Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the righthand curb or edge of the roadway. In TX: 545.101. Turning at Intersection (a) To make a right turn at an intersection, an operator shall make both the approach and the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. Though I think your real question is "why would someone pass such a law." To which I would answer: Because it causes crashes like the one above. Many driveways, especially in crowded areas, are quite narrow and it is impossible to turn into them unless you go a bit wide. So for these narrow driveways, the only practicle way to enter them is by going to the left first and then turning right. Of couse, you should have your right turn signal on to make sure the drivers behind you understand what you are doing. And I would add in that if you are making such an illegal and unsafe turn, then you should take care to ensure that there is no one attempting to pass you as you turn. Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy" |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
"Daniel Snooks" wrote:
Bill wrote Was I truely at fault ? Yes. But it is questionable if the charge should be "careless". There seems to be a lot of back and forth in this thread about whether or not the other driver was partially at fault. She was not at fault ... even partially. She committed at least one violation, possibly more. The worst violation does not get 100% of the fault. You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). It doesn't matter if they have come to a complete stop, and they have their left turn signal on, you still must not pass on the right. If there is more then one lane, then it is ok. Nope. You can't leave the road to pass on the right, though. 39:4-85 The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right as provided in this section only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. In no event shall such movement be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled portion of the roadway. In the scenario you describe, the other driver was still driving on your side of the road (albeit at the extreme left of the lane) which clearly puts you at fault for pulling up beside her. What does the "side of the road" have to do with the fact she was not a close as practicable to the right hand side for her right turn (and thus violating the law)? Should I even try to go to court ? Yes. If you can get the charge reduced it will be worth it. Why should he fight an obviously incorrect charge only to ask for a lesser charge? He should be glad they mischarged him with something he didn't do, so he can get out of it completely, not plea to something else. Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy" |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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#22
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article , bill12317
@lycos.com says... However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. I This is why you got the ticket. From your skid marks it appeared as though you were driving too fast for 35 MPH; I don't buy the simple "following too close" argument; you were going too fast for the speed that you were actually doing. You mentioned that she was turning into her driveway. This means that you were on a residential street; you should have been farther back, in the center of the lane, and obeying the speed limit. You mentioned that you did not see a turn signal yet you were anticipating her turning LEFT based on her location within the lane. Why? Why did you think that, especially when you saw NO turn signal? At any rate when you are on a road that is one lane in each direction, you need to stay directly behind the car in front of you. If that car is doing the posted speed limit on that two lane road, you should just back off and enjoy the scenery, you're going to be on that road for a while. I live off of a street in NJ where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH, every other condition is the same as you described. A car too far to the right (appearing as though he was trying to pass a car on the right that was turning left) actually hit my 10 year old daughter while she was riding her bicycle, *on the sidewalk.* Miraculously, she was unhurt but her bike got bent up. Her helmet broke, but SHE did not. My aunt did not fare as well. In 1997, while a pedestrian on a residential street, she was struck and killed by a motorist doing what you described above in New York State. I have just given you two very good reasons, from one family, as to why you should not follow too closely, go too fast nor drive too close to the right on a residential street. I hope that either one of those reasons help you understand why you were ticketed. Ginny |
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#23
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
Ginny wrote: This is why you got the ticket. From your skid marks it appeared as though you were driving too fast for 35 MPH; I don't buy the simple "following too close" argument; you were going too fast for the speed that you were actually doing. You mentioned that she was turning into her driveway. This means that you were on a residential street; you should have been farther back, in the center of the lane, and obeying the speed limit. New Jersey law indicates you should be in the RIGHT of the road, not the center. It also apparently doesn't prohibit passing on the right within the lane, in which case the rear driver is quite possibly not at all at fault. You mentioned that you did not see a turn signal yet you were anticipating her turning LEFT based on her location within the lane. Why? Why did you think that, especially when you saw NO turn signal? Err, because a common reason people move to the left of the lane is to make a left turn. I live off of a street in NJ where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH, every other condition is the same as you described. A car too far to the right (appearing as though he was trying to pass a car on the right that was turning left) actually hit my 10 year old daughter while she was riding her bicycle, *on the sidewalk.* If you're going to make **** up, try to make it up so it's actually believable. -- Matthew T. Russotto "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a modicum of security is a very expensive vice. |
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#24
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
says... In article , Ginny wrote: New Jersey law indicates you should be in the RIGHT of the road, not the center. It also apparently doesn't prohibit passing on the right within the lane, in which case the rear driver is quite possibly not at all at fault. If he was in the CENTER of his *lane* (notice I said LANE not ROAD), he would have been travelling in the right side of a two lane road. Further, had he not been following too closely he would have been able to know FOR SURE if there were any turn signals at all in use. Instead, Our Hero followed too closely and made assumptions that turned out to be INCORRECT. You mentioned that you did not see a turn signal yet you were anticipating her turning LEFT based on her location within the lane. Why? Why did you think that, especially when you saw NO turn signal? Err, because a common reason people move to the left of the lane is to make a left turn. ....or if they were swinging wide to enter a narrow driveway on the right with a larger vehicle, such as a minivan or SUV. You need to turn wider if you have a larger auto and it has to do the the length and width of your automobile, not whether the guy behind you thinks you're turning left because he's in too much of a ****ing hurry to notice turn signals. What kind of vehicle did the original poster say the woman had? he didn't. Hell, he didn't even say if he could tell, FOR SURE, if she had her signal on. I live off of a street in NJ where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH, every other condition is the same as you described. A car too far to the right (appearing as though he was trying to pass a car on the right that was turning left) actually hit my 10 year old daughter while she was riding her bicycle, *on the sidewalk.* If you're going to make **** up, try to make it up so it's actually believable. The smashed helmet and bent tire on the bike can be seen at http://www.ginnysanchez.com/pix/bike.JPG . She was bumped by a car that popped up onto the SIDEWALK because he went too far to the right in an effort to pass a car turning left. Because he popped up the curb he was going slow enough that he bumped her forward & pushed my child off her bike to the right of the car, landing on the grass where she broke the back of her helmet. If you are an attorney, feel free to e-mail me and I will give you further details since the asshole hit her on a sidewalk at slow speed to pass a car making a left turn and then drove away after a neighbor picked her up off the ground and said "she looks fine, it's OK you can go" and the driver did--without providing any information on his identity, assuming that the neighbor who was out mowing his lawn was the parent of my child. I spent $700 in emergency room fees and a new bike and helmet and no one to get the money back from--what am I going to do, sue my neighbor for being a dumbass? ....or should I assume you're the same stripe of dumbass as my neighbor? Would you also like the city, state, date and name of my deceased aunt as well or are you just a know-nothing asshole with regards to children riding their bikes on sidewalks? IMWTK, and all that. Ginny |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
wrote in message ... | In nj.general 127.0.0.0 wrote: | On 6 Oct 2003 22:02:50 -0700, (Bill) wrote: | | A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder | whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. Yes, he was at fault. In NJ it is illegal to pass on the right on a 2-lane road. Period. (I'm not saying it isn't done...I'm saying it's illegal - and you're ALWAYS at fault if you have an accident when doing so). | | don't bother fighting it, there are no points involved, just pay the | fine thank the cop for not writing you for something else and move on There *are* points involved in NJ. | | Are you nuts? In NJ, a ticket for careless driving carries four | points if I am not mistaken. 39:4-97 - careless driving - 2 points (from NJ MVC website) Most auto insurance companies in NJ | will deny coverage to anyone with six points. An at fault accident | that has been paid out through insurance, plus a 4 point violation, | plus anything else that the OP might have on his record will surely | result in his being placed in the assigned risk pool which means | he won't find coverage for auto insurance for less than $4,000 at | best. And the points remain on the record for insurance rating | purposes for five years (even after they fall off the official | DMV record), plus there's a state surcharge that's charged annually | to any NJ driver who has excessive points on his or her record. | What's worse is that taking a defensive driving course will not | reduce these points for insurance or surcharge purposes. Although the concept is correct, the details aren't quite... All the information you care to read about the tier insurance program can be found he http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/tierbk01.pdf and he http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/acrobat/autoguide02.pdf Gary |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
"Ricardo" wrote in message news:3f832adf.14737627@news... | On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:08:25 -0400, "Daniel Snooks" | wrote: | | You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). | | Since when? It's perfectly ok to pass a left turner on the right, | given enough space. One important case where passing on the right is | NOT ok is paradoxically when it's actually legal here! Ouch. Umm sorry, but in NJ it is categorically illegal to pass on the right 39:4-85 Improper passing on right or off roadway | | It doesn't matter if they have come to a complete stop, and they | have their left turn signal on, you still must not pass on the right. | | Bull**** (assuming there's enough space to undertake, that is). Not Bull**** | If there is more then one lane, then it is ok. | Only legally. On limited access highways, it most certainly is NOT | ok (except in a strict legal sense). | | In the scenario you describe, the other driver was still driving on your | side of the road (albeit at the extreme left of the lane) which clearly puts | you at fault for pulling up beside her. | | It is perfectly ok and legal to pass a left turner on the right. It | is not ok or legal to pass *on the right shoulder*. I hope you don't live near me and have a NJ driver's license. Gary |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article . net,
Gary Rodgers wrote: "Ricardo" wrote in message news:3f832adf.14737627@news... | On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:08:25 -0400, "Daniel Snooks" | wrote: | | You can NOT pass someone on the right (within the same lane). | | Since when? It's perfectly ok to pass a left turner on the right, | given enough space. One important case where passing on the right is | NOT ok is paradoxically when it's actually legal here! Ouch. Umm sorry, but in NJ it is categorically illegal to pass on the right 39:4-85 Improper passing on right or off roadway 39:4-85. Passing to left when overtaking; passing when in lines; signalling to pass; passing upon right -- Matthew T. Russotto "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a modicum of security is a very expensive vice. |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
Matthew Russotto wrote: You were probably following too closely. But if she made a sudden unsignalled right turn across your path, she at least shares the fault. Since, without her error, no endangerment of person or property was present, I'd say you're not guilty of "careless driving". But I am not a lawyer. Strangely, in New Jersey, the operator of a motor vehicle is fully and 100% responsible for the end of the car in the direction of travel, and must maintain control of the vehicle 100% of the time in order to not be at fault. So, the guy who got the "careless driving" ticket first off got off lucky. The officer on scene could have written several tickets: 39:4-89 Tailgating (5 pts); 39:4-85 Improper passing on right or off roadway (4 pts); 39:4-88 39:4-86 Improper passing, in "No Passing" zone (4 pts). That's 13 points, or an instant loss of license. (This all assumes that the road was a two-lane road with double-solid yellow lines down the center, and that he was indeed following too closely and was tailgating.) In the end, the fact that the person who got the careless driving ticket wasn't able to stop his motor vehicle in time to avoid the accident means that he was not in control of his vehicle at the time of the accident, and therefore he is 100% at fault. The action of the other driver may be reprehensible, but unless otherwise proved illegal, isn't at fault. This is why it sucks to drive in New Jersey. People are free to leave if they can't cope. :-) (Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I've dealt with accidents and traffic enough to know when you are, or are not, at fault, according to the state of New Jersey.) -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/ "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70) |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:55:10 -0400, Dave Head
wrote: Pay the fine, Always fight. :} and next time, don't drive close to people. Drive so there's as much room as you can make between you and the nearest car. And if you're thinking of passing on a 2 lane road, do it on the left. Uhmmm, when someone's signalling to make a left turn? I've had that done to me in Europe before and it's extremely dangerous, not to mention illegal. -- ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law. '89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
This didn't by chance happen in Margate, did it?
"Bill" wrote in message om... A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Alex Rodriguez wrote:
In article , says... Why is it illegal to swing wide? Because the laws say so. In Anchorage: 9.22.010 Required position and method of turning at intersection. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do as follows: A. Right turns. Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the righthand curb or edge of the roadway. That's funny I see where is says as close as practicable. If you have a narrow driveway, it requires that you go wide to make the turn into the driveway. So going wide is legal. In TX: 545.101. Turning at Intersection (a) To make a right turn at an intersection, an operator shall make both the approach and the turn as closely as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. Though I think your real question is "why would someone pass such a law." To which I would answer: No, I know there is a good reason for the law. Because it causes crashes like the one above. Doesn't matter what the law says when you have a bad driver behind the wheel. In this instance you have two poor drivers, assuming the OP's description is accurate. The first driver turns into a driveway without signalling and the other driver tries to pass the first on the right. Either one is probably not a big deal, but when the two occur at the same place and time, you get an accident. Most (nearly all) driveway/car combinations allow you to turn in at less than one car width from the curb. Without more information, I must take this to be the normal case, that she swung wide out of convenience (not having to slow as much) and not for practicality. From the OP's statements regarding the speed and lack of use of brakes, it would appear that she was smoothing out the turn by drifting illegally wide. Many driveways, especially in crowded areas, are quite narrow and it is impossible to turn into them unless you go a bit wide. So for these narrow driveways, the only practicle way to enter them is by going to the left first and then turning right. Of couse, you should have your right turn signal on to make sure the drivers behind you understand what you are doing. And I would add in that if you are making such an illegal and unsafe turn, then you should take care to ensure that there is no one attempting to pass you as you turn. I agree you have to be carefull when you make such a turn, but it is neither illegal nor unsafe to do when you look before you turn. It most certainly illegal to swing wide before, during, or after a right turn in TX, NJ, and where I am (Anchorage). I've looked it up exactly three times, and all three make it illegal to swing wider than necessary before executing a right turn. From my observations of general driving and the image from the OP's statements, this is exactly the same illegal action that the person he hit was taking. Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy" |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:23:15 -0400, Dave Head
wrote: and next time, don't drive close to people. Drive so there's as much room as you can make between you and the nearest car. And if you're thinking of passing on a 2 lane road, do it on the left. Uhmmm, when someone's signalling to make a left turn? "Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal." I think that means "no turn signal", at least in this case. Yeah, in that case it was kinda foolhardy on the OP's part to try to squeeze by on the right, by all accounts. If someone is signalling left, then yeah, that's an exception, although I would personally be real careful of such action, Oh for sure, and such action is not to be contemplated should one be in any doubt about the nearside clearance available. as there's lotsa boneheads out there that signal left and then turn right anyway. I was one of those... when I was a learner that is! :} I've had that done to me in Europe before and it's extremely dangerous, not to mention illegal. Yeah. There's boneheads all over the world. In this particular case the culprit had Belgian tags, the old adage being that whenever you see those red on white Belgian plates, the best thing you can do is to get out the way and pray. :} -- ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law. '89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt msg. typed using dvorak system so excuse all ytops! |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:06:17 -0400, Ginny
wrote: I live off of a street in NJ where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH, every other condition is the same as you described. A car too far to the right (appearing as though he was trying to pass a car on the right that was turning left) actually hit my 10 year old daughter while she was riding her bicycle, *on the sidewalk.* Miraculously, she was unhurt but her bike got bent up. Her helmet broke, but SHE did not. My aunt did not fare as well. In 1997, while a pedestrian on a residential street, she was struck and killed by a motorist doing what you described above in New York State. I have just given you two very good reasons, from one family, as to why you should not follow too closely, go too fast nor drive too close to the right on a residential street. Agree. Residential driving can be very scary. Once a toddler waddle out from between two cars, parked along the road, in front of my van.Thankfully I was going slow enough and swerved, missing him/her. --- "Deer aren't the only unpredictable animal on the road." |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Ginny wrote:
In article , says... In article , Ginny wrote: I live off of a street in NJ where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH, every other condition is the same as you described. A car too far to the right (appearing as though he was trying to pass a car on the right that was turning left) actually hit my 10 year old daughter while she was riding her bicycle, *on the sidewalk.* If you're going to make **** up, try to make it up so it's actually believable. The smashed helmet and bent tire on the bike can be seen at http://www.ginnysanchez.com/pix/bike.JPG . She was bumped by a car that popped up onto the SIDEWALK because he went too far to the right in an effort to pass a car turning left. So passing on the right and speeding were irrelevant. The offending driver drove on the sidewalk to strike her. The reason why the person drove onto the sidewalk is irrelevant, as is the speed, for passing on the right and speeding did not have anything to do with the driver not being able to make a simple space/velocity judgement. Regardless, when it comes to a discussion of a driver that was passing someone making an illegal right turn, your story is quite irrelevant (unless they left the road to complete the turn). Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy" |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
Marc wrote:
Ginny wrote: The smashed helmet and bent tire on the bike can be seen at http://www.ginnysanchez.com/pix/bike.JPG . She was bumped by a car that popped up onto the SIDEWALK because he went too far to the right in an effort to pass a car turning left. So passing on the right and speeding were irrelevant. Re-read the above. He went too far to the right, to pass a car making a left. If he went too far to the right to pass someone, then he was **passing on the right** which makes it relevant. If he were NOT passing on the right, he would not have wound up on the sidewalk. Ginny |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
no.
"swatcop" wrote in message . com... This didn't by chance happen in Margate, did it? "Bill" wrote in message om... A week ago, I was given a careless driving ticket in NJ. I wonder whether I was at fault or whether I should fight it in court. It was a weekend on a two lane residential street (one lane each way). The lane is so wide that a bus and a car can drive side by side. The speed requirement is 35 miles/hr. I followed a car which stayed close to the left side of the road and I stayed close to the right thinking that the drive might left. Suddenly I saw the car in front trying to make a right turn without a right turn signal. I immediately swerve and tried to stop my car, but my driver side mirror hit her passenger side mirror. It turned out that she was trying to make a right turn to her home. | | | | ______| | -- this is her driveway /|| ______ | her car hit my car | | She came out from her car and her neighbour came out from her house screaming at me that I was not supposed to pass her on the right side which I was not. However, when the police came, we could see that there was a skid mark of more than car'slength, and it was obvious that I was trying to stop. But the police gave me a carless driving ticket claiming that I was either driving too fast or following too close. In the police report, she claimed that she had the right turn signal on. I am quite sure that she did not, in fact, I do not think she even had the brake light on. During a conversation with one of the officers at the scene, he said that how could someone make a turn into her driveway without a brake. Later I did an experiement at home and confirmed that I can turn into my driveway without using a brake if I stay far left enough. From what I search from the web, Carless driving in NJ reads "A person who drives a vehicle carelessly, or without due caution and circumspection, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of careless driving." Was I truely at fault ? Should I even try to go to court ? What will happen if I plea "not guilty" but decide to pay the fine later ? do I still have to pay the court fee ? What is the impact of a careless driving ticket ? I know I have to pay $78 and possibily 2 points and higher insurance. thanx for the advice. BW |
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carless driving in NJ, was I at fault ?
In article ,
Dossy wrote: In article , Matthew Russotto wrote: You were probably following too closely. But if she made a sudden unsignalled right turn across your path, she at least shares the fault. Since, without her error, no endangerment of person or property was present, I'd say you're not guilty of "careless driving". But I am not a lawyer. Strangely, in New Jersey, the operator of a motor vehicle is fully and 100% responsible for the end of the car in the direction of travel, and must maintain control of the vehicle 100% of the time in order to not be at fault. So, the guy who got the "careless driving" ticket first off got off lucky. The officer on scene could have written several tickets: 39:4-89 Tailgating (5 pts); 39:4-89 Following, space between trucks. Possibly, though the officer admittedly was unable to determine this 39:4-85 Improper passing on right or off roadway (4 pts); 39:4-85. Passing to left when overtaking; passing when in lines; signalling to pass; passing upon right Rather unlikely, and impossible to reconcile with a ticket with 39:4-89 -- if he was passing, he wasn't tailgating, and if he was tailgating, he wasn't passing. 39:4-88 39:4-86 Improper passing, in "No Passing" zone (4 pts). That's 13 points, or an instant loss of license. 39:4-88 Traffic on marked lanes Not applicable 39:4-86 Overtaking and passing vehicles; crossing "No Passing" lines Not applicable (applies to crossing the double-yellow or driving left of center, neither of which the original poster did; he was on the right) Since you got all that wrong, I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about when you talk about fault. -- Matthew T. Russotto "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a modicum of security is a very expensive vice. |
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