Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

mc wrote:
Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

The stuff is a 25% solution of isopropanol in water with a light surfactant
added.... but the surfactant leaves a residue when the vehicle evaporates.
All the junk that went into solution leaves a residue too.

If you care about your records, get a cheap vacuum machine at the very
least. Really filthy records can also do with a pre-cleaning with water and
a light detergent. (These days I am big on Alconox laboratory cleaner,
which is cheap. I used to recommend Dr. Bronner's baby soap, but they
have changed the formulation and it leaves a lot more residue. You don't
need to use deonized water and super-clean detergent since the stuff left
behind in the pre-wash will be removed in the vacuum machine).

Look for a used Nitty Gritty Record Doctor. You should be able to find
one around a hundred bucks or so. Your life will be improved and your
noise floor drop substantially.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

The stuff is a 25% solution of isopropanol in water with a light
surfactant
added.... but the surfactant leaves a residue when the vehicle evaporates.
All the junk that went into solution leaves a residue too.

Same as lens cleaner, then. The bottle for Radio Shack Professional
Anti-Static Record Cleaner (from years ago) lists several phosphate
compounds as ingredients.

But Discwasher fluid *smells* like what you describe.

mc wrote:

Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

Back when I was in college my housemates who were chemical engineering
majors took a sample of Discwasher fluid to the lab and analyzed it.
Pure 100% deionized water was their conclusion.

I've read elsewhere that there is a small amount of surfactant added as
well, but it's mostly water. Pure deionized water should be safe,
although it may not work quite as well as genuine Discwasher. The point
of the fluid is to reduce static and provide mild adhesion for the pad.
That's all, nothing magic. Tap water has minerals and grit, so
don't use that.

Personally, I have a hard time using up the bottle that comes with the
brush before the brush needs to be replaced.

//Walt

mc wrote:
Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

The stuff is a 25% solution of isopropanol in water with a light
surfactant
added.... but the surfactant leaves a residue when the vehicle evaporates.
All the junk that went into solution leaves a residue too.

Same as lens cleaner, then. The bottle for Radio Shack Professional
Anti-Static Record Cleaner (from years ago) lists several phosphate
compounds as ingredients.

Probably to improve the action of the surfactant. The EPA is ****y about
that kind of thing today.

But Discwasher fluid *smells* like what you describe.

Yup. The problem is the process and procedure, not the fluid.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.
Works fine for me
br
GS


Scott Dorsey schrieb:
mc wrote:

Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?


No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

The stuff is a 25% solution of isopropanol in water with a light surfactant
added.... but the surfactant leaves a residue when the vehicle evaporates.
All the junk that went into solution leaves a residue too.

If you care about your records, get a cheap vacuum machine at the very
least. Really filthy records can also do with a pre-cleaning with water and
a light detergent. (These days I am big on Alconox laboratory cleaner,
which is cheap. I used to recommend Dr. Bronner's baby soap, but they
have changed the formulation and it leaves a lot more residue. You don't
need to use deonized water and super-clean detergent since the stuff left
behind in the pre-wash will be removed in the vacuum machine).

Look for a used Nitty Gritty Record Doctor. You should be able to find
one around a hundred bucks or so. Your life will be improved and your
noise floor drop substantially.
--scott

mc wrote:

Is there a safe homemade substitute for the solution that is supplied in
tiny bottles for use on a Discwasher pad?

It depends what the discs are made of:

If they are relatively modern vinyl discs, you will be safe with water,
isopropanol and wetting agents.

If they are slate/shellac or nitrate never use any kind of alcohol.

If they are aluminium, use paraffin (kerosene).

If they are gelatine, never use water, alcohol or any wetting agent;
you might get away with paraffin, but first try it on a bit of the
surface that doesn't matter.

As others have said, the actual method of cleaning is very important.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the
dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

Is this a widely held opinion?

"GS" wrote in message
...
I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?

"mc" wrote in
:


"GS" wrote in message
...
I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that
you should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for
photography). Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?

http://audio-restoration.com/monks5.php

"Carey Carlan" wrote in message
...
"mc" wrote in
:


"GS" wrote in message
...
I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that
you should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for
photography). Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?

http://audio-restoration.com/monks5.php

Ah. I don't think I can justify a $5,000 record cleaner.

mc wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the
dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

Is this a widely held opinion?

It's certainly held by anyone who has ever compared a Discwasher with a
vacuum machine. The difference is like night and day.

Go buy a clean pressing that has never been played. Look at it through
a microscope. You'll see the occasional ball of gunk and you might see
some whitish crud from mold release agents, but for the most part it looks
nice and clean. Now clean it with a Discwasher and look again. Notice
how all the crap from all the other records you cleaned with the Discwasher
before is now all over your new record. A 50X inspection microscope like
the $20 cheapie from Edmund will show you more than enough to make you
swear off those pad things forever.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

mc wrote:
"GS" wrote in message
...
I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?

Kieth Monks made the best vacuum machine built, and the only one that is
safe for use on acetates.

The way I feel about vacuum machines is that on standard vinyl, they are
all about as effective as one another. You can spend $100 or you can
spend $5,000, and they'll both do about as good a job. The $100 machine
will take a lot longer and require a lot more work than the $5,000 machine,
though.

If you have the occasional disc, a couple a day or so, buy the $100 machine.
If you have to do a library with a couple thousand discs for prep work,
by all means buy the $5,000 machine because you will save money with it.
If you have to work with acetates, buy the Monks and accept no substitutes.
If you don't have to work with acetates, the VPI machines are almost as
convenient and are somewhat cheaper. If you have no money at all and don't
need to do huge numbers, buy a Nitty Gritty.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:58:04 -0500, "mc"
wrote:

No. There is no safe way to use Discwasher pads. They just move the
dirt
around and don't really clean the records.

Is this a widely held opinion?

My personal opinion is even more negative, FWIW.

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

the disc doctor
http://discdoc.com/

Hello Scott,
there are a few more between 100$ and 5000$:

The Loricraft: http://www.garrard501.com/prc2.html
The VPI: http://www.vpiindustries.com/products.htm
The Clearaudio Matrix: http://www.clearaudio.de/index.htm

and even a professional looking DIY machine:
http://secret-sound-labs.net/wash.htm

and also a guy who sells his DIY machines:
http://www.gps-recordstore.de/sb1.html

Some interesting links are he http://ssl.best-picture-point.de/seife.htm

Have fun
GS



Scott Dorsey schrieb:
mc wrote:

"GS" wrote in message
...

I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?


Kieth Monks made the best vacuum machine built, and the only one that is
safe for use on acetates.

The way I feel about vacuum machines is that on standard vinyl, they are
all about as effective as one another. You can spend $100 or you can
spend $5,000, and they'll both do about as good a job. The $100 machine
will take a lot longer and require a lot more work than the $5,000 machine,
though.

If you have the occasional disc, a couple a day or so, buy the $100 machine.
If you have to do a library with a couple thousand discs for prep work,
by all means buy the $5,000 machine because you will save money with it.
If you have to work with acetates, buy the Monks and accept no substitutes.
If you don't have to work with acetates, the VPI machines are almost as
convenient and are somewhat cheaper. If you have no money at all and don't
need to do huge numbers, buy a Nitty Gritty.
--scott

I bought a Discwasher when they first came out, decades ago. (Still have
it.) It did not "just move the dirt around", as the line of dust on the pad
attested. Neither was it anywhere nearly as effective a vacuum machine.

If an LP is dirty enough to need cleaning, you should clean it properly, on
a VPI, N-G, Loricraft, et al.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
I bought a Discwasher when they first came out, decades ago. (Still have
it.) It did not "just move the dirt around", as the line of dust on the
pad
attested. Neither was it anywhere nearly as effective a vacuum machine.

If an LP is dirty enough to need cleaning, you should clean it properly,
on
a VPI, N-G, Loricraft, et al.

How do these machines compare to a careful wash with water and detergent and
a soft brush?

mc wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
I bought a Discwasher when they first came out, decades ago. (Still have
it.) It did not "just move the dirt around", as the line of dust on the
pad
attested. Neither was it anywhere nearly as effective a vacuum machine.

If an LP is dirty enough to need cleaning, you should clean it properly,
on
a VPI, N-G, Loricraft, et al.

How do these machines compare to a careful wash with water and detergent and
a soft brush?

They are MUCH better at getting records very clean, because with the
detergent wash you will always have some residue left behind. The vacuum
machines remove the solution so it has no chance to evaporate.

However, the vacuum machines are no good with records that are extremely
filthy. In that case, you need to do a a water and detergent wash,
FOLLOWED BY a vacuum cleaning.

Occasionally you'll get recordings that are too filthy to clean with
water and detergent and there are a few other tricks for those, including
PVA peels, ultrasonic dunk tanks, and light hydrocarbon solvents. All
of these wind up making a mess that needs to be followed by a vacuum
cleaning.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

They are MUCH better at getting records very clean, because
with the detergent wash you will always have some residue left
behind. The vacuum machines remove the solution so it has no
chance to evaporate.

The vacuum machines do not completely remove the fluid. A very thin film is
left, and you can hear it.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
They are MUCH better at getting records very clean, because
with the detergent wash you will always have some residue left
behind. The vacuum machines remove the solution so it has no
chance to evaporate.

The vacuum machines do not completely remove the fluid. A very thin film
is
left, and you can hear it.

In order to determine that, you must have found a way of getting the rest of
it off... what is it?

disc doctor....

the formula actual removes the release agent used when pressing the
record.
maybe you could go to that web site and read....

http://discdoc.com/

wrote:
disc doctor....

the formula actual removes the release agent used when pressing the
record.
maybe you could go to that web site and read....

http://discdoc.com/

Yes, but ANY good cleaning solution will remove the mold-release agent.
This is not particularly distinguishing. It's also not really as serious
a problem as some folks seem to think, although it might increase the noise
floor a tiny bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

What release agent do they use in the first place? It is powdery or oily?

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
wrote:
disc doctor....

the formula actual removes the release agent used when pressing the
record.
maybe you could go to that web site and read....

http://discdoc.com/

Yes, but ANY good cleaning solution will remove the mold-release agent.
This is not particularly distinguishing. It's also not really as serious
a problem as some folks seem to think, although it might increase the
noise
floor a tiny bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

mc wrote:
What release agent do they use in the first place? It is powdery or oily?

It's oily, and it depends on the manufacturer. Normally it's a light silicone
oil that is added to the biscuit mix. 25% isopropanol plus some surfactant
will take it off nicely. I think isopropanol does better than methanol too,
but methanol will work.

There are exceptions out there. Melodya used a PVA/PVC copolymer for years,
where the PVA acted as its own mold release. Higher noise floor than a
conventional PVC pressing, though higher density.

Dunno _what_ polystyrene 45s used. Test pressings would always come back
with some sort of white glop on the surface, but I never really understood
the pressing procedure for those things and these days nobody else knows
anymore either.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The vacuum machines do not completely remove the fluid. A very thin film
is left, and you can hear it.

In order to determine that, you must have found a way of getting the rest
of
it off... what is it?

You let the disk air-dry for about 10 minutes.

I learned this 20 years ago when Harry Weisfeld was demonstrating his VPI
machine at the SCES. He played a bit of a recording, then cleaned it. You
could hear an obvious improvement in "liquidity", cleanliness, transparency,
etc.

"You know, it's funny, Bill. I just cleaned that disk 10 minutes ago."

The "obvious" explanation is that a thin layer of water is left on the disk
(it _has_ to be, by the laws of physics), and changes the sound in the same
way completely wetting the disk does.

I didn't see anything in these links that looked like they could be
had for $100.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:28:57 +0100, GS wrote:

Hello Scott,
there are a few more between 100$ and 5000$:

The Loricraft: http://www.garrard501.com/prc2.html
The VPI: http://www.vpiindustries.com/products.htm
The Clearaudio Matrix: http://www.clearaudio.de/index.htm

and even a professional looking DIY machine:
http://secret-sound-labs.net/wash.htm

and also a guy who sells his DIY machines:
http://www.gps-recordstore.de/sb1.html

Some interesting links are he http://ssl.best-picture-point.de/seife.htm

Have fun
GS



Scott Dorsey schrieb:
mc wrote:

"GS" wrote in message
...

I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?


Kieth Monks made the best vacuum machine built, and the only one that is
safe for use on acetates.

The way I feel about vacuum machines is that on standard vinyl, they are
all about as effective as one another. You can spend $100 or you can
spend $5,000, and they'll both do about as good a job. The $100 machine
will take a lot longer and require a lot more work than the $5,000 machine,
though.

If you have the occasional disc, a couple a day or so, buy the $100 machine.
If you have to do a library with a couple thousand discs for prep work,
by all means buy the $5,000 machine because you will save money with it.
If you have to work with acetates, buy the Monks and accept no substitutes.
If you don't have to work with acetates, the VPI machines are almost as
convenient and are somewhat cheaper. If you have no money at all and don't
need to do huge numbers, buy a Nitty Gritty.
--scott

Sorry, I forget a link:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/kabev1_e.html
but it's 129$

The Groove Laundry used only parts from scrap so it was probably even
less than 100$
The 'Little Sucker' - also DIY was around 300 Euro for parts.
http://www.****head.net/ls/

Another professional looking DIY machine was 224 Euro for the parts
http://www.der-gustler.de/6701.html?...ession*id*val*

BTW, the 100$ came from the (original) Scott Dorsey article
br
GS

Willie K. Yee, MD schrieb:
I didn't see anything in these links that looked like they could be
had for $100.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:28:57 +0100, GS wrote:


Hello Scott,
there are a few more between 100$ and 5000$:

The Loricraft: http://www.garrard501.com/prc2.html
The VPI: http://www.vpiindustries.com/products.htm
The Clearaudio Matrix: http://www.clearaudio.de/index.htm

and even a professional looking DIY machine:
http://secret-sound-labs.net/wash.htm

and also a guy who sells his DIY machines:
http://www.gps-recordstore.de/sb1.html

Some interesting links are he http://ssl.best-picture-point.de/seife.htm

Have fun
GS



Scott Dorsey schrieb:

mc wrote:


"GS" wrote in message
...


I second Scott's recipe more or less, but I want to point out, that you
should NOT use simply water.

I use double distilled water with a 30% solution of isopropanol (100%
purity) and a few drops of Ilford Ilfotol Wetting Agent (for photography).
Finally I use a Keith Monks ro remove everything.

A what?


Kieth Monks made the best vacuum machine built, and the only one that is
safe for use on acetates.

The way I feel about vacuum machines is that on standard vinyl, they are
all about as effective as one another. You can spend $100 or you can
spend $5,000, and they'll both do about as good a job. The $100 machine
will take a lot longer and require a lot more work than the $5,000 machine,
though.

If you have the occasional disc, a couple a day or so, buy the $100 machine.
If you have to do a library with a couple thousand discs for prep work,
by all means buy the $5,000 machine because you will save money with it.
If you have to work with acetates, buy the Monks and accept no substitutes.
If you don't have to work with acetates, the VPI machines are almost as
convenient and are somewhat cheaper. If you have no money at all and don't
need to do huge numbers, buy a Nitty Gritty.
--scott

In article , GS wrote:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/kabev1_e.html
but it's 129$

The Groove Laundry used only parts from scrap so it was probably even
less than 100$
The 'Little Sucker' - also DIY was around 300 Euro for parts.
http://www.****head.net/ls/

Another professional looking DIY machine was 224 Euro for the parts
http://www.der-gustler.de/6701.html?...ession*id*val*

BTW, the 100$ came from the (original) Scott Dorsey article

Right, and that was for a used Nitty Gritty Record Doctor, which is a low-end
model that is no longer made and shows up cheaply on the used market. It is
worth every penny of that, too. It works as well as the big machines, just
more slowly and with some elbow grease.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Thanks Scott,
it really depends on the number of vinyls that have to be cleaned. I
would never do 200 or more with a Nitty Gritty. I bought the KM only
because I had a project with ~2000 records that had to be cleaned. So
there was a ROI given. Otherwise I would probably go the DIY way.
br
GS


Scott Dorsey schrieb:
In article , GS wrote:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/kabev1_e.html
but it's 129$

The Groove Laundry used only parts from scrap so it was probably even
less than 100$
The 'Little Sucker' - also DIY was around 300 Euro for parts.
http://www.****head.net/ls/

Another professional looking DIY machine was 224 Euro for the parts
http://www.der-gustler.de/6701.html?...ession*id*val*

BTW, the 100$ came from the (original) Scott Dorsey article


Right, and that was for a used Nitty Gritty Record Doctor, which is a low-end
model that is no longer made and shows up cheaply on the used market. It is
worth every penny of that, too. It works as well as the big machines, just
more slowly and with some elbow grease.
--scott