hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good
quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements:

1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible.
2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time.
3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice.
4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176,
LA-2A, etc.
5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing

PC's I currently have:
1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0.
2 drives.
2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2
PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having
to do with video/screen.

I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had
my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and
Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe
protools or something.

It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro
24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA
Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little
about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think
it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of
having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox.
Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some
high-end analog outboard pre's.

You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good
sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56).

I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like
the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that
Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it
(couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked).

I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking
up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no
simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a
time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any
case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I
already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I
went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like
deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded
good.

Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me.
I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3
(4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do
like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been
the heavier it is, the better it sounds.

Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!!
Eddie

The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB -
the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since
not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your
laptop.
From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality
sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience is
with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound
comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself, and
posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz
that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU
Traveller which uses firewire.

pw.


"Bonzi" wrote in message
oups.com...
hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good
quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements:

1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible.
2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time.
3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice.
4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176,
LA-2A, etc.
5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing

PC's I currently have:
1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0.
2 drives.
2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2
PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having
to do with video/screen.

I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had
my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and
Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe
protools or something.

It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro
24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA
Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little
about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think
it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of
having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox.
Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some
high-end analog outboard pre's.

You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good
sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56).

I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like
the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that
Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it
(couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked).

I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking
up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no
simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a
time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any
case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I
already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I
went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like
deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded
good.

Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me.
I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3
(4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do
like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been
the heavier it is, the better it sounds.

Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!!
Eddie

prevailingwind wrote:

The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB
-
the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since
not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your
laptop.
From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality
sound. Of course quality is relative.

I know it can support stereo 24/96, and most likely 24/192 as well.
What it won't be able to handle is lots of channels of that, although USB2
should. If you're just looking at overdubbing lots of mono/stereo tracks,
it should be quite sufficient.

--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=-
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)

Thanks for the tip on the E-Mu stuff pw. I like the fact that it has
DSP effects on it. I have a feeling I won't get much effects if I try
to rely on either CPU for effects (via directX effects?). I'm still not
sure I understand all this yet so please correct me if I'm wrong. So
I'm looking at dedicated boards for effects (in addition to an
interface) such as the UAD-1 by Universal Audio. Pricey stuff but at
least I can expand into it. If there are interfaces that have the
effects on them, that's great too (assuming they sound pretty good).
The nice thing about the UAD-1 is that there are versions of the Bomb
Factory 1176, LA2A, etc. for them that I've heard samples of that
sounded pretty good to me (still don't get near tape though). I've also
seen some outboard products (around $2000) that do the tape fattening
thing so that's always an option in regards to that.

It's interesting to note that from what I've been reading PCMCIA is
about as fast as PCI. What I don't have a handle on is whether it will
make much of a difference (especially if I use hardware based effects)
if I use the 850mhz over the 1Ghz laptop. I don't have a problem using
PCI based stuff and using the tower (or getting into a faster tower
later). The laptop has always given me grief in the dependability area.
The other problem is fast harddrives. I am assuming I would need a
firewire based outboard harddrive to do 10 playback tracks at a time
(especially on the laptop). It's seeming like the laptop is the way to
go but for some reason my gut says to avoid it. Probably because I know
that if it goes dead I can't justify buying another laptop with how
these things depreciate. I don't need the portability.

I was looking at jumping into maybe an m-audio audiophile or an echo
indigo just to get going (pcmcia). I heard that the echo gets REALLY
hot. Another outboard interface (looks similiar to the E-Mu) is the
Edirol Roland UA-5. I don't know that it has effects offhand. But it's
USB, so there you go. I decided after your post that I would NOT be
going USB.

I've used the MOTU Midi stuff before with Digital Performer. It seems
like it was really tied in away to the software. I will probably avoid
their stuff due to this. I guess I'm looking at Nuendo or Sonar
(Cakewalk) as the softare.

If I had the budget I think I'd get an SPDIF PCI card and get an
outboard converter from apogee, RME (perhaps with effects if that would
work) or maybe just a lynx II. Then I would get one or two UAD-1's for
effects. Then run Nuendo or Cakewalk. This of course would run a few
thousand. But I can work towards this and be somewhat modular it seems.


Eddie

prevailingwind wrote:
The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB -
the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since
not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your
laptop.
From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality
sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience is
with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound
comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself, and
posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz
that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU
Traveller which uses firewire.

pw.


"Bonzi" wrote in message
oups.com...
hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good
quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements:

1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible.
2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time.
3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice.
4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176,
LA-2A, etc.
5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing

PC's I currently have:
1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0.
2 drives.
2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2
PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having
to do with video/screen.

I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had
my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and
Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe
protools or something.

It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro
24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA
Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little
about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think
it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of
having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox.
Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some
high-end analog outboard pre's.

You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good
sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56).

I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like
the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that
Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it
(couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked).

I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking
up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no
simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a
time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any
case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I
already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I
went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like
deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded
good.

Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me.
I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3
(4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do
like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been
the heavier it is, the better it sounds.

Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!!
Eddie

You might look into the Mackie Onyx 1620 or 1220 mixer with the Firewire
board option. This will be a little more than the $1000 budget , but will
get you 12 to 16 good quality Preamp inputs with A to D and D to A as well
as software to record (Traction 2- ok software with obtuse interface)

You will need a PCMCIA Firewire card for the laptop or a $20 PCI 1394 card
for the desktop.

---Courtney

"Bonzi" wrote in message
oups.com...
hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good
quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements:

1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible.
2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time.
3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice.
4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176,
LA-2A, etc.
5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing

PC's I currently have:
1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0.
2 drives.
2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2
PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having
to do with video/screen.

I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had
my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and
Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe
protools or something.

It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro
24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA
Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little
about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think
it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of
having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox.
Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some
high-end analog outboard pre's.

You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good
sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56).

I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like
the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that
Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it
(couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked).

I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking
up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no
simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a
time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any
case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I
already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I
went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like
deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded
good.

Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me.
I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3
(4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do
like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been
the heavier it is, the better it sounds.

Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!!
Eddie

Bonzi,

Yes, the E-MU does offer a lot. Speed should not be a concern. Rather, the
fact that it uses PCMCIA. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but firewire
is a standard across laptops and towers, where PCMCIA is a laptop thing. As
a side note, a lot of the manufacturers advertise their firewire products as
not requiring external power - it uses the power from the firewire cable.
True, if you have a 6-pin firewire port. Most laptops have the 4-pin type,
which is compatible with the 6-pin type, but does not have the 2 pins that
serve the power. So the manufacturer supplies you with a 6-pin firewire
cable that you can't use. So you go out and buy the 4-pin type for $35.00,
and guess what? No power. Well of course not. So you also have to plug
the device into an external power source. Marketing knows no shame. Bu if
you can live with the fact of having to plug your device into an external
power source, firewire is still the way to go.

Your original post began with a desire for a "VERY simple" solution. I hear
that loud and clear & agree - KISS is a wise wish. If you still want that,
maybe consider using your computer for only those things that you really
need it for. Maybe for running audio & MIDI recording software. This is my
personal opinion, so pls take it that way & very questioningly. But I
cringe when I think about adding dedicated boards in my computer's bus just
for effects. That means I need to concern myself with compatibility issues
with other software & debugging all kinds of problems - I've never seen a
computer hardware or software component that didn't give me problems, and
too often taking up so much time to fix that I'm left without an ounce of
creativy left after fixing them. Then there's always a new operating system
down the road, and the possibility that there won't be drivers for my
component. And it's ditto with software packages that claim to fill your
every need. I'm sure there are excellent boards and software that do work
well, and do fill a real need. And maybe there's one for you. But as a
general rule, if you want to spend more time recording than debugging
software, limit the amount of hardware and software you add to your
computer.

My ideal setup is a powerful computer with a good audio/MIDI recording
package. Interface that to a multiport audio interface, preferably using
firewire. Use outboard gear for effects & other processing. I'm not saying
I wouldn't use computer processing for some things in addition to
recording - there are cases where it might make sense & produce good
results. But personally I keep those to a minimum.

Sorry I didn't get too specific, but it sounded to me you are at an early
design stage, so I'm guessing theory and opinion is just as usefull - I'm
sure you can find all the stats you want from the web. Ultimately all the
knowledge in the world isn't worth a hill of beans. You have to hear the
music, then decide. And that's another thing...

Oh no,
here I go...
again...

But music stores & manufacturers are so busy trying to sell that they don't
have time to let you try stuff. When was the last time you were in a music
store with all the hardware and software products not just on their shelf,
but on display, where you could listen to everyhing. You can do this with
guitars, keyboards, violins, accordians, & other things, but not with
computer stuff - sorry, you can't try this HERE! (what, are you nuts or
something?). And by the way, you open the software seal, and don't bother
bringing it back. So what, I have to buy it on faith? But you say it's
really what I need? Really? Really, really? Really, really, really? But
recently, I think Guitar Center (Massachusetts) gets a little credit for
their policy of returns on hardware devices - i think it's 2 weeks. I had
to use this policy last year - I bought an interface device. I won't say
which one, not because I would hesitate for one second to name the product
and the manufacturer, but for the sake of not upsetting the peace of mind of
someone who owns one and might read this. I liked it on the shelf, and in
the specs, but after I brought it home, discovered it had the headroom of
the cellar of a 17th century small hut - in other words, I turned the gain
all the way up with the extra 12dB kick, and found I was still in second
gear, and needed more room. So I brought it back in a hurry and got a full
refund. If you're really concerned which one it was, email me & I'll tell
you.

Happy listening.

pw.

"Bonzi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the tip on the E-Mu stuff pw. I like the fact that it has
DSP effects on it. I have a feeling I won't get much effects if I try
to rely on either CPU for effects (via directX effects?). I'm still not
sure I understand all this yet so please correct me if I'm wrong. So
I'm looking at dedicated boards for effects (in addition to an
interface) such as the UAD-1 by Universal Audio. Pricey stuff but at
least I can expand into it. If there are interfaces that have the
effects on them, that's great too (assuming they sound pretty good).
The nice thing about the UAD-1 is that there are versions of the Bomb
Factory 1176, LA2A, etc. for them that I've heard samples of that
sounded pretty good to me (still don't get near tape though). I've also
seen some outboard products (around $2000) that do the tape fattening
thing so that's always an option in regards to that.

It's interesting to note that from what I've been reading PCMCIA is
about as fast as PCI. What I don't have a handle on is whether it will
make much of a difference (especially if I use hardware based effects)
if I use the 850mhz over the 1Ghz laptop. I don't have a problem using
PCI based stuff and using the tower (or getting into a faster tower
later). The laptop has always given me grief in the dependability area.
The other problem is fast harddrives. I am assuming I would need a
firewire based outboard harddrive to do 10 playback tracks at a time
(especially on the laptop). It's seeming like the laptop is the way to
go but for some reason my gut says to avoid it. Probably because I know
that if it goes dead I can't justify buying another laptop with how
these things depreciate. I don't need the portability.

I was looking at jumping into maybe an m-audio audiophile or an echo
indigo just to get going (pcmcia). I heard that the echo gets REALLY
hot. Another outboard interface (looks similiar to the E-Mu) is the
Edirol Roland UA-5. I don't know that it has effects offhand. But it's
USB, so there you go. I decided after your post that I would NOT be
going USB.

I've used the MOTU Midi stuff before with Digital Performer. It seems
like it was really tied in away to the software. I will probably avoid
their stuff due to this. I guess I'm looking at Nuendo or Sonar
(Cakewalk) as the softare.

If I had the budget I think I'd get an SPDIF PCI card and get an
outboard converter from apogee, RME (perhaps with effects if that would
work) or maybe just a lynx II. Then I would get one or two UAD-1's for
effects. Then run Nuendo or Cakewalk. This of course would run a few
thousand. But I can work towards this and be somewhat modular it seems.


Eddie

prevailingwind wrote:
The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or
USB -
the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable.
Since
not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for
your
laptop.
From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high
quality
sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience
is
with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound
comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself,
and
posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz
that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU
Traveller which uses firewire.

pw.


"Bonzi" wrote in message
oups.com...
hi all,

I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good
quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements:

1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible.
2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time.
3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice.
4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176,
LA-2A, etc.
5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing

PC's I currently have:
1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0.
2 drives.
2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2
PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having
to do with video/screen.

I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I
had
my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and
Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe
protools or something.

It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro
24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA
Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little
about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think
it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of
having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox.
Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some
high-end analog outboard pre's.

You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what
good
sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56).

I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder
like
the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that
Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it
(couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked).

I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and
locking
up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be
no
simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at
a
time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in
any
case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers
I
already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I
went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like
deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded
good.

Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me.
I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3
(4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do
like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been
the heavier it is, the better it sounds.

Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!!
Eddie