hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.

regards malcolm


--
¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸
LED Headlamps and Sea Fishing UK
http://www.geocities.com/malc_hurn
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seafishinguk
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"malcolm" wrote in message
news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.


In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer. If you advertise yourself as
a designer, then no registration is required. There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.


In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer. If you advertise yourself as
a designer, then no registration is required. There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

"Arny Krueger"

In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer.

No.

A PE stamp, basically, will allow you to design elevators, HVAC systems,
etc.

Few get it, as it just isn't necessary for the vast majority of tech
careers.

There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

What law?

An engineer is one who has earned a BS or higher engineering degree from an
ABET accredited school.

Busting out the math and theory in the design process to the point where
there is no guessing, no looking at precalculated tables you don't
understand the foundation of, etc., is what separates the engineer from the
technician, IMO.


- Nate

"Arny Krueger"

In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer.

No.

A PE stamp, basically, will allow you to design elevators, HVAC systems,
etc.

Few get it, as it just isn't necessary for the vast majority of tech
careers.

There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

What law?

An engineer is one who has earned a BS or higher engineering degree from an
ABET accredited school.

Busting out the math and theory in the design process to the point where
there is no guessing, no looking at precalculated tables you don't
understand the foundation of, etc., is what separates the engineer from the
technician, IMO.


- Nate

"malcolm" wrote in message news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04...
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,
Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.

These are completely arbitrary "definitions," which may or may not
have any connection with any particualr example of good or bad
design and engineering.

In the audio world, ESPECIALLY in the so-called "high-end" audio
world, many speaker "designers" and "engineers" use neither design
nor engineering techniques. They use cut-and-try, stab-in-the-dark,
shotgun approaches simply because they lack the educational background,
the technical skill, the measurement capability and interpretation
skills to engage in a proper and efficient design process.

A proper design excercise starts with a coherent definition of
the goals intended, a clear understanding of the limitations
of the technology used, a full tool and skill set that is used
judiciously to achieve the set goals. Often that process results
in a modification of the goals when they are incompatible or
impossible to achieve with the given materials and tool set.

Consider the following definition:

"Engineering is making stuff you want out of stuff you have."

What you want, to be done properly, requires a thorough, coherent,
self-consistent system specification, based on a clear understanding
of the intended use of the system. What you got is the fundamental
limitations of physics, the degree of successful implementation
in physical materials, all constrained by the economic limits
also imposed on the project.

Let me tell you a true story: I was asked to design a speaker system
for a manufacturer. Much of the initial design process I go through
is to interview the client, listen to their needs and desires, and
listen to what they have done and what they currently like. Along
with that I get to understand their vendors, their economic constraints
and so on.

As I have done for others, I went off, designed the system to their
requirements and for their target, built the prototype and delivered
that, the design, bill of material, manufacturing procedures, sources
and such. The client took the design, and I didn't hear from them for
about a month. At that time, they came back, and told me that they
liked my design, but decided to "tweak it" to better suit their
desires. They thought they had gotten REAL close, but needed my help
for the final tweak.

Well, what they had done was SO screwed up the crossover as to make
the system a total abomination. Among other things, the minimum
impedance of the system had dropped from about 6.1 ohms, as I had
designed it, to less than 3. Response error around the network now
was on the order of +-10 dB over the range of about 2 octaves. These
people had gone through this "design" excercise with NO measurement
capability, no design expertise, just wild, pull-it-out-of-their-ass
guesses.

I took a gamble: I put the system back EXACTLY as I had designed it,
then changed the tweeter attenuation level about 1 dB. Sent the system
back and they absolutely LOVED IT. Check in the mail and all that.

With all of their "designing," they had never once changed ANYTHING
in the tweeter response, and never ONCE noticed that the dismal
response they though was SO close to what they wanted simply wasn't
their any more.

That's OFTEN how speaker "design" and "engineering" is done.

Unfortunately.

"Any idiot can design a loudspeaker, and, unfortunately,
many do."

What's the difference bewteen engineering a loudspeaker and
designing a loudspeaker?

Done properly, there is NO difference.

"malcolm" wrote in message news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04...
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,
Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.

These are completely arbitrary "definitions," which may or may not
have any connection with any particualr example of good or bad
design and engineering.

In the audio world, ESPECIALLY in the so-called "high-end" audio
world, many speaker "designers" and "engineers" use neither design
nor engineering techniques. They use cut-and-try, stab-in-the-dark,
shotgun approaches simply because they lack the educational background,
the technical skill, the measurement capability and interpretation
skills to engage in a proper and efficient design process.

A proper design excercise starts with a coherent definition of
the goals intended, a clear understanding of the limitations
of the technology used, a full tool and skill set that is used
judiciously to achieve the set goals. Often that process results
in a modification of the goals when they are incompatible or
impossible to achieve with the given materials and tool set.

Consider the following definition:

"Engineering is making stuff you want out of stuff you have."

What you want, to be done properly, requires a thorough, coherent,
self-consistent system specification, based on a clear understanding
of the intended use of the system. What you got is the fundamental
limitations of physics, the degree of successful implementation
in physical materials, all constrained by the economic limits
also imposed on the project.

Let me tell you a true story: I was asked to design a speaker system
for a manufacturer. Much of the initial design process I go through
is to interview the client, listen to their needs and desires, and
listen to what they have done and what they currently like. Along
with that I get to understand their vendors, their economic constraints
and so on.

As I have done for others, I went off, designed the system to their
requirements and for their target, built the prototype and delivered
that, the design, bill of material, manufacturing procedures, sources
and such. The client took the design, and I didn't hear from them for
about a month. At that time, they came back, and told me that they
liked my design, but decided to "tweak it" to better suit their
desires. They thought they had gotten REAL close, but needed my help
for the final tweak.

Well, what they had done was SO screwed up the crossover as to make
the system a total abomination. Among other things, the minimum
impedance of the system had dropped from about 6.1 ohms, as I had
designed it, to less than 3. Response error around the network now
was on the order of +-10 dB over the range of about 2 octaves. These
people had gone through this "design" excercise with NO measurement
capability, no design expertise, just wild, pull-it-out-of-their-ass
guesses.

I took a gamble: I put the system back EXACTLY as I had designed it,
then changed the tweeter attenuation level about 1 dB. Sent the system
back and they absolutely LOVED IT. Check in the mail and all that.

With all of their "designing," they had never once changed ANYTHING
in the tweeter response, and never ONCE noticed that the dismal
response they though was SO close to what they wanted simply wasn't
their any more.

That's OFTEN how speaker "design" and "engineering" is done.

Unfortunately.

"Any idiot can design a loudspeaker, and, unfortunately,
many do."

What's the difference bewteen engineering a loudspeaker and
designing a loudspeaker?

Done properly, there is NO difference.

"Nate B" wrote in message
...
In much if not all of the US, you have to be a
state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer.

No.

A PE stamp, basically, will allow you to design elevators, HVAC
systems,
etc.

Few get it, as it just isn't necessary for the vast majority of
tech
careers.

There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an
engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

What law?

An engineer is one who has earned a BS or higher engineering
degree from an
ABET accredited school.

You have a few points wrong.

An engineering degree bestowed on a person allows them to call
themselves a degreed engineer and nothing more. By law they
cannot offer their services publicly as a professional engineer.
Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation. This is similar to doctors and lawyers who haven't
passed their boards/bar. If a company has engineering in their
name or offer engineering services they must have a PE on staff
who approves all work. I know several local companies who were
forced to change their company name (one was Engineered
Plumbing). My regional newsletter cites ongoing legal
activities. There are several people/companies per month who are
fined or prosecuted for practicing without a license.

That said, the company I work for employs several hundred
engineers who are titled as engineers but don't have a PE...which
is the norm. However, if they offer services to the public, such
as consulting, they are liable for legal action.

For more info, legal, etc see
http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/

"Nate B" wrote in message
...
In much if not all of the US, you have to be a
state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer.

No.

A PE stamp, basically, will allow you to design elevators, HVAC
systems,
etc.

Few get it, as it just isn't necessary for the vast majority of
tech
careers.

There's quite a few people in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an
engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

What law?

An engineer is one who has earned a BS or higher engineering
degree from an
ABET accredited school.

You have a few points wrong.

An engineering degree bestowed on a person allows them to call
themselves a degreed engineer and nothing more. By law they
cannot offer their services publicly as a professional engineer.
Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation. This is similar to doctors and lawyers who haven't
passed their boards/bar. If a company has engineering in their
name or offer engineering services they must have a PE on staff
who approves all work. I know several local companies who were
forced to change their company name (one was Engineered
Plumbing). My regional newsletter cites ongoing legal
activities. There are several people/companies per month who are
fined or prosecuted for practicing without a license.

That said, the company I work for employs several hundred
engineers who are titled as engineers but don't have a PE...which
is the norm. However, if they offer services to the public, such
as consulting, they are liable for legal action.

For more info, legal, etc see
http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/

"Rusty Boudreaux"

An engineering degree bestowed on a person allows them to call
themselves a degreed engineer and nothing more.

It allows them to get a job that pays money. These jobs are very rarely
offered to those w/o the degree. The job titles are almost always
"Engineer". It's just that simple. There is little more to read into this.


By law they cannot offer their services publicly as a professional
engineer.

Yes, PE could very well stand for Public Engineer. Site plans, architects
who can't seem to use standard building design codes, bridges, sewers,
skyscrapers, etc. Yes, you wouldn't want to advertise yourself as someone
capable of signing off on this stuff unless you could - hence "PE".
Everyone knows this.

As for the other 99.9% of engineering that goes on in this world, PE doesn't
mean jack squat. Joe Engineer can put up a sign calling himself "Speaker
Metrics" or "Speaker Expert Joe, MSEE" and legally go find work by himself
or with others that may well have dropped out of high school. If he is
good, only the most pedantic and clueless will ask for and/or care about a
PE. The rest will want to see examples and demonstration of his work in
their office as soon as possible.

Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation.

If you are implying that a company doing business that involves engineering
needs to have a PE on staff - I'm going to have to call you completely and
wholly clueless and recluse myself from further conversation with you.
There are a whole lot of companies out there selling engineering services
w/o a single PE on staff.


There are several people/companies per month who are
fined or prosecuted for practicing without a license.

Cite your source.



- Nate

"Rusty Boudreaux"

An engineering degree bestowed on a person allows them to call
themselves a degreed engineer and nothing more.

It allows them to get a job that pays money. These jobs are very rarely
offered to those w/o the degree. The job titles are almost always
"Engineer". It's just that simple. There is little more to read into this.


By law they cannot offer their services publicly as a professional
engineer.

Yes, PE could very well stand for Public Engineer. Site plans, architects
who can't seem to use standard building design codes, bridges, sewers,
skyscrapers, etc. Yes, you wouldn't want to advertise yourself as someone
capable of signing off on this stuff unless you could - hence "PE".
Everyone knows this.

As for the other 99.9% of engineering that goes on in this world, PE doesn't
mean jack squat. Joe Engineer can put up a sign calling himself "Speaker
Metrics" or "Speaker Expert Joe, MSEE" and legally go find work by himself
or with others that may well have dropped out of high school. If he is
good, only the most pedantic and clueless will ask for and/or care about a
PE. The rest will want to see examples and demonstration of his work in
their office as soon as possible.

Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation.

If you are implying that a company doing business that involves engineering
needs to have a PE on staff - I'm going to have to call you completely and
wholly clueless and recluse myself from further conversation with you.
There are a whole lot of companies out there selling engineering services
w/o a single PE on staff.


There are several people/companies per month who are
fined or prosecuted for practicing without a license.

Cite your source.



- Nate

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:51:47 GMT, "malcolm"
wrote:

hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.

First do the second, then do the first, but always *understand* what
you're doing.................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:51:47 GMT, "malcolm"
wrote:

hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.

First do the second, then do the first, but always *understand* what
you're doing.................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Nate B" wrote in message


"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message


As for the other 99.9% of engineering that goes on in this world, PE
doesn't mean jack squat. Joe Engineer can put up a sign calling
himself "Speaker Metrics" or "Speaker Expert Joe, MSEE" and legally
go find work by himself or with others that may well have dropped out
of high school. If he is good, only the most pedantic and clueless
will ask for and/or care about a PE. The rest will want to see
examples and demonstration of his work in their office as soon as
possible.

More or less true, but not what Randy or I was talking about.

Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation.

Right. But if the firm has the word engineer or engineering in its name, or
if the corporation does work that has to be done under the supervision of a
PE, then corporate umbrella includes at least one PE.

If you are implying that a company doing business that involves
engineering needs to have a PE on staff - I'm going to have to call
you completely and wholly clueless and recluse myself from further
conversation with you. There are a whole lot of companies out there
selling engineering services w/o a single PE on staff.

Right, but they can't do things like use the word engineering or engineer in
their name. They can as I said, call themselves a design firm and use the
word "Design" in their name, providing they don't do the kind of design
work (e.g., architectural) that has to be signed off by a PE.

"Nate B" wrote in message


"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message


As for the other 99.9% of engineering that goes on in this world, PE
doesn't mean jack squat. Joe Engineer can put up a sign calling
himself "Speaker Metrics" or "Speaker Expert Joe, MSEE" and legally
go find work by himself or with others that may well have dropped out
of high school. If he is good, only the most pedantic and clueless
will ask for and/or care about a PE. The rest will want to see
examples and demonstration of his work in their office as soon as
possible.

More or less true, but not what Randy or I was talking about.

Most engineering graduates practice under the umbrella of a
corporation.

Right. But if the firm has the word engineer or engineering in its name, or
if the corporation does work that has to be done under the supervision of a
PE, then corporate umbrella includes at least one PE.

If you are implying that a company doing business that involves
engineering needs to have a PE on staff - I'm going to have to call
you completely and wholly clueless and recluse myself from further
conversation with you. There are a whole lot of companies out there
selling engineering services w/o a single PE on staff.

Right, but they can't do things like use the word engineering or engineer in
their name. They can as I said, call themselves a design firm and use the
word "Design" in their name, providing they don't do the kind of design
work (e.g., architectural) that has to be signed off by a PE.

But you don't need to be a qualified engineer to engineer and design an
excellent loudspeaker system. anyone can do anything as long as they know
what they are doing and have a passion for it. Anyone whether qualified or
not can make a balls up of engineering a loudspeaker system if they are not
clear and confident in what they are trying to achieve.



Lots of the real successful business innovators in this world are not
qualified and often dyslexic and their success is brung about by taking
risks and chances to push the boundary's in ways many qualified persons are
trained to avoid.



So the answer is, it depends on the builder in question. both ways can yield
excellent results and both ways can yield poor results, but the engineering
method can be allot quicker cheaper and more safe but not always better.



Stew.

But you don't need to be a qualified engineer to engineer and design an
excellent loudspeaker system. anyone can do anything as long as they know
what they are doing and have a passion for it. Anyone whether qualified or
not can make a balls up of engineering a loudspeaker system if they are not
clear and confident in what they are trying to achieve.



Lots of the real successful business innovators in this world are not
qualified and often dyslexic and their success is brung about by taking
risks and chances to push the boundary's in ways many qualified persons are
trained to avoid.



So the answer is, it depends on the builder in question. both ways can yield
excellent results and both ways can yield poor results, but the engineering
method can be allot quicker cheaper and more safe but not always better.



Stew.

1en·gi·neer
b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of
engineering
pro·fes·sion
4 a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive
academic preparation

Does this imply I have to attend a 4 year college? Or if smart enough it can
be taught thru experience,study and
hard work. I am not a so called "registered engineer" but do the same thing
and get paid well.
Fortunately we have some loop holes in Florida which allow me to engineer
drawings for permitting. I produce a drawing equal to if not better than
most engineers. I actually listen to the client and draw what fits the
budget unlike most engineers in our area. I have over 20 years experience in
design/build and hold licenses in 3 states but I am not allowed to take a PE
exam? This is crap! Its all about schools and money. You can call me
whatever you like but I do "engineering".

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"malcolm" wrote in message
news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.


In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer. If you advertise yourself
as
a designer, then no registration is required. There's quite a few people
in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.

1en·gi·neer
b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of
engineering
pro·fes·sion
4 a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive
academic preparation

Does this imply I have to attend a 4 year college? Or if smart enough it can
be taught thru experience,study and
hard work. I am not a so called "registered engineer" but do the same thing
and get paid well.
Fortunately we have some loop holes in Florida which allow me to engineer
drawings for permitting. I produce a drawing equal to if not better than
most engineers. I actually listen to the client and draw what fits the
budget unlike most engineers in our area. I have over 20 years experience in
design/build and hold licenses in 3 states but I am not allowed to take a PE
exam? This is crap! Its all about schools and money. You can call me
whatever you like but I do "engineering".

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"malcolm" wrote in message
news:nuhob.64131$Fm2.47533@attbi_s04
hello folks
would people agree or disagree with this........

Loudspeaker designing is playing and modifying to see how it sounds,

Loudspeaker engineering is calculating and making parts compatible.


In much if not all of the US, you have to be a state-registered
Professional
Engineer to advertise yourself as an engineer. If you advertise yourself
as
a designer, then no registration is required. There's quite a few people
in
business that have the qualifications and experience of an engineer, but
call themselves a "designer" to comply with the law.