Has anyone tried the Pansonic ECQ-V series of stacked film capacitors
from Digi-Key? They have excellent density and they don't sound any
worse to my ears than the Panasonic metallized film mylars.

I have tried the stacked PPS film caps from ITW Paktron and wasn't so
pleased with them... these seem to be an improvement over them at least.

I do like the idea of having a film cap that can almost fit in the space
of a tantalum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Has anyone tried the Pansonic ECQ-V series of stacked film capacitors
from Digi-Key? They have excellent density and they don't sound any
worse to my ears than the Panasonic metallized film mylars.

I have tried the stacked PPS film caps from ITW Paktron and wasn't so
pleased with them... these seem to be an improvement over them at least.

I do like the idea of having a film cap that can almost fit in the space
of a tantalum.
--scott

I have a whole kit of them. Can't say anything bad about them, but I have not used them
much.

greg

I haven't used them much for high quality audio applications but for
military gear with the occasional audio application.

I like these. They are nice and stable over temp (Important to me), as
you mentioned nice density, and Panasonic in general has been a great
company for us to work with.

I also like their Poly Aluminum caps but that is a whole other animal.
We have almost totally phased out using tantalum caps for bulk
capacitance applications. With ceramic and the Poly AL stuff, why go
tantalum anymore? (At least for our applications)

I don't get parts from Digikey though (Hate them) They are generally
more expensive, less than stellar service, and limited selection. That
being said, I have the luxury of being able to buy from larger
distributors with great service since I work for a gov't contractor.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Has anyone tried the Pansonic ECQ-V series of stacked film capacitors
from Digi-Key? They have excellent density and they don't sound any
worse to my ears than the Panasonic metallized film mylars.

Are those the ones with the red dipped encapsulation ? The series sounds
familiar for sure. Maybe I'm thinking of standard mylars though.

Just used a few in a new project. Handy since they're available with
'intermediate' values that most makers don't bother with - a proper E12
range.

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.


I have tried the stacked PPS film caps from ITW Paktron and wasn't so
pleased with them... these seem to be an improvement over them at least.

What didn't you like about them ?


I do like the idea of having a film cap that can almost fit in the space
of a tantalum.

I've been using compact 'box polys' on 0.2" pitch for ages like those from
Thomson and Philips ( oh it's Vishay BC now ). They're pretty small too. Do
you not know them ?

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.

Same as you judge the 'sound' of a mc preamp or anything else that has
specs that look like those of every other similar product. You put it
in the circuit and listen. There's no other way, and yes, it's
imperfect and it takes time, but that's what separates the best
sounding audio designs from those which are merely competently
designed.

Pooh Bear wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Has anyone tried the Pansonic ECQ-V series of stacked film capacitors
from Digi-Key? They have excellent density and they don't sound any
worse to my ears than the Panasonic metallized film mylars.

Are those the ones with the red dipped encapsulation ? The series sounds
familiar for sure. Maybe I'm thinking of standard mylars though.

All of the Panasonics are that way. Even the tantalums are that red
color. They do everything from crappy mylars to some very high grade
polystyrenes in a variety of voltages. No polycarbs, though.

What's interesting abut the ECQ-V is they are tiny. The 50V 1MFD
one is almost square, about a quarter inch on the side.

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.

Put it in a high-Z coupling application and you'll hear all kinds of
wacky differences between caps. Might be due to microphonic and
stability issues in part. For the most part the problems get worse
at high temperatures as you would expect for stability problems.

I have tried the stacked PPS film caps from ITW Paktron and wasn't so
pleased with them... these seem to be an improvement over them at least.

What didn't you like about them ?

They didn't sound right in high-Z coupling applications. Admittedly I
first tried the things in a condenser microphone front end where leakage
is also critical (and I'm talking picoamp leakage).

I do like the idea of having a film cap that can almost fit in the space
of a tantalum.

I've been using compact 'box polys' on 0.2" pitch for ages like those from
Thomson and Philips ( oh it's Vishay BC now ). They're pretty small too. Do
you not know them ?

I think these are bigger than the ECQ-V. Wima also has some of those little
boxes too, though. The boxes definitely improve internal mechanical stability
but they make the package larger.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Has anyone tried the Pansonic ECQ-V series of stacked film capacitors
from Digi-Key? They have excellent density and they don't sound any
worse to my ears than the Panasonic metallized film mylars.

Are those the ones with the red dipped encapsulation ? The series sounds
familiar for sure. Maybe I'm thinking of standard mylars though.

All of the Panasonics are that way. Even the tantalums are that red
color. They do everything from crappy mylars to some very high grade
polystyrenes in a variety of voltages. No polycarbs, though.

What's interesting abut the ECQ-V is they are tiny. The 50V 1MFD
one is almost square, about a quarter inch on the side.

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.

Put it in a high-Z coupling application and you'll hear all kinds of
wacky differences between caps. Might be due to microphonic and
stability issues in part. For the most part the problems get worse
at high temperatures as you would expect for stability problems.

I have tried the stacked PPS film caps from ITW Paktron and wasn't so
pleased with them... these seem to be an improvement over them at least.

What didn't you like about them ?

They didn't sound right in high-Z coupling applications. Admittedly I
first tried the things in a condenser microphone front end where leakage
is also critical (and I'm talking picoamp leakage).

I do like the idea of having a film cap that can almost fit in the space
of a tantalum.

I've been using compact 'box polys' on 0.2" pitch for ages like those from
Thomson and Philips ( oh it's Vishay BC now ). They're pretty small too. Do
you not know them ?

I think these are bigger than the ECQ-V. Wima also has some of those little
boxes too, though. The boxes definitely improve internal mechanical stability
but they make the package larger.
--scott

In really high-z stuff, some of the better types I had problems with contamination
with PC cleaning because they had poor sealing, and one WIMA type is
the culprut. That same cap had issues with temperature and surface mount
applications. That same cap, due to sealing, could not stand certain solvents, and it only became
apparent after several months.

greg

GregS wrote:
In really high-z stuff, some of the better types I had problems with contamination
with PC cleaning because they had poor sealing, and one WIMA type is
the culprut. That same cap had issues with temperature and surface mount
applications. That same cap, due to sealing, could not stand certain solvents, and it only became
apparent after several months.

That's very interesting. I had never thought about that. That is probably
becoming more and more of an issue as we're forced to go to newer and
different defluxing agents, too.

What I have noticed is that metallized foil capacitors with cut ends
tend to have much more serious leakage issues than wrapped ones. Big
problems with the Panasonic stuff, but the Electrocube and ASC types are
much better. Don't know about Electronic Concepts yet.

Most of the magazine projects I have done have used NPO ceramic coupling
caps on the front end. If you get good ones, they are _much_ cleaner
sounding than they were even a decade ago, and good ones with low leakage
are readily available. Glass caps, silver-micas, and low-leakage film
caps aren't easy to get onsie-twosie.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The parameter, if you can find it speced, is dialectric adsorbsion and/or
hysterisis.

Not meaning to correct your spelling, but to make it clear to those who
do not know about this parameter: It is "dielectric absorption" that is
an important factor in capacitors.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

In article , wrote:
Pooh Bear writes:

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.

Listening...

The parameter, if you can find it speced, is dialectric adsorbsion and/or
hysterisis. Polycarbonate are the best from the data and tests I read way
long ago...

Problem is that what is best depends on the application. A much worse
problem is that polycarbonate is on the way out... the one company that
made polycarbonate films in large quantities shut the line down about
five years ago when the demand for typewriter ribbons dropped to zero.
So the capacitor guys are basically working on stored inventory of
polycarbonate films now.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Problem is that what is best depends on the application. A much worse
problem is that polycarbonate is on the way out... the one company that
made polycarbonate films in large quantities shut the line down about
five years ago when the demand for typewriter ribbons dropped to zero.
So the capacitor guys are basically working on stored inventory of
polycarbonate films now.

And going out buying up all those surplus typewriter ribbons ?!!

geoff

Mike Rivers wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

How do you judge the 'sound' of a cap btw ? With film caps I see no
problematic parameter that would be audible.

Same as you judge the 'sound' of a mc preamp or anything else that has
specs that look like those of every other similar product. You put it
in the circuit and listen. There's no other way, and yes, it's
imperfect and it takes time, but that's what separates the best
sounding audio designs from those which are merely competently
designed.

Maybe I should have clarified that I fail to see any parameter that would
give cause for concerns over audible effects.

The other aspect is that if there's no defect that's measureable I
generally consider that there won't be an audible issue either.

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:

Maybe I should have clarified that I fail to see any parameter that would
give cause for concerns over audible effects.

The other aspect is that if there's no defect that's measureable I
generally consider that there won't be an audible issue either.

Try using it as a coupling cap into a 1G source impedance (about typical
for a condenser mike input stage) and look at the 1 KHz square wave
response on a scope. On some caps it can get pretty interesting. My
suspicion is these problems are caused by mechanical deformation of the
dielectric as it charges and discharges.

I might believe this could be a big deal inside tube gear where the
temperatures are high, and input impedances are still fairly high
(even though three orders of magnitude lower, admittedly).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message news:dnah84

Try using it as a coupling cap into a 1G source impedance (about typical
for a condenser mike input stage) and look at the 1 KHz square wave
response on a scope. On some caps it can get pretty interesting. My
suspicion is these problems are caused by mechanical deformation of the
dielectric as it charges and discharges.

What sort of scope probe/input are you using. Wouldn't that be likely to
totally swamp the DUT ?

geoff

Pooh Bear wrote:

Maybe I should have clarified that I fail to see any parameter that would
give cause for concerns over audible effects.

The other aspect is that if there's no defect that's measureable I
generally consider that there won't be an audible issue either.

That's a good principle to live by, but there are some things to which
our ears are more sensitive to than today's test equipment. Or maybe we
just haven't discovered the right things to measure yet.

I don't know specifically about capacitors, but when it comes to audio
in general, there are some things that we can hear that we can't yet
quantify in the lab. Perhaps some time in the future we can, but for
now we just have to trust our golden ears and impeccable taste.

Geoff@work wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Problem is that what is best depends on the application. A much worse
problem is that polycarbonate is on the way out... the one company that
made polycarbonate films in large quantities shut the line down about
five years ago when the demand for typewriter ribbons dropped to zero.
So the capacitor guys are basically working on stored inventory of
polycarbonate films now.

And going out buying up all those surplus typewriter ribbons ?!!

geoff

yes, but...

dielectic absortion would only impact the bass frequency response in a
very minor way (perhaps extending it actually) and would not cause any
non-linear distortion...

for the capacitor to produce non-linear distortion. would require a
substantial audio voltage ACROSS the cap. In the typical coupling
applicaiton, there is very little audio voltage ACROSS the cap and this
is especially true in a Hi Z coupling application.

There is DC voltage across the cap and there is an audio voltage
passing through the cap, but if the cap is a coupling cap and is
coupling as it should, there is very little audio voltage across the
cap.

and any distortion caused by this would be easily measurable

so there is nothing mysterious about this....it can all be easily
measured...if it exists...

Mark

Mark wrote:
Geoff@work wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Problem is that what is best depends on the application. A much worse
problem is that polycarbonate is on the way out... the one company that
made polycarbonate films in large quantities shut the line down about
five years ago when the demand for typewriter ribbons dropped to zero.
So the capacitor guys are basically working on stored inventory of
polycarbonate films now.

And going out buying up all those surplus typewriter ribbons ?!!

geoff

yes, but...

dielectic absortion would only impact the bass frequency response in a
very minor way (perhaps extending it actually) and would not cause any
non-linear distortion...

for the capacitor to produce non-linear distortion. would require a
substantial audio voltage ACROSS the cap. In the typical coupling
applicaiton, there is very little audio voltage ACROSS the cap and this
is especially true in a Hi Z coupling application.

There is DC voltage across the cap and there is an audio voltage
passing through the cap, but if the cap is a coupling cap and is
coupling as it should, there is very little audio voltage across the
cap.

and any distortion caused by this would be easily measurable

so there is nothing mysterious about this....it can all be easily
measured...if it exists...

Mark


oh yes...see

http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,28,00.html

for equiv circuit of dielectric absorption

Mark

Scott Dorsey wrote:

So there's substantial DC across the cap as well as the signal, which
may have been as much as 10V peak-peak.

Across a *coupling cap*? The time varying signal across one should be
negligible in the audio band (all the more so if the load resistance is
very high.) That's what it's for. Because of this they should be
inaudible and a good argument can be made that if electrolytic they need
not even be biased. If you see a signifigant AC signal being dropped
across a coupling cap in the audio band, it's too damn small.



Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...


Scott Dorsey wrote:

So there's substantial DC across the cap as well as the signal, which
may have been as much as 10V peak-peak.

Across a *coupling cap*? The time varying signal across one should be
negligible in the audio band (all the more so if the load resistance is
very high.) That's what it's for. Because of this they should be
inaudible and a good argument can be made that if electrolytic they need
not even be biased. If you see a signifigant AC signal being dropped
across a coupling cap in the audio band, it's too damn small.

Perhaps deliberately, for bandlimiting, to keep out (say) breath blasts,
wind, etc..

Peace,
Paul