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#1
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
Greetings all,
I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. -Sean Fulop |
#2
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. -Sean Fulop There might be several reasons why you think it sounds better: 1) Your cartridge is not giving out enough treble, so the clipping distortion fills in the gap. 2) Your speakers have the same problem. 3) Your hearing threshold has gone down with age, biggest change from 50 to 60. 4) The big cracks get compressed by clipping and relativly reduced in amplitude. The vinyl record has never more than 55-60dB dynamic range so there is no need to record at high level. When the average loud level is at -12dB with peaks to -3dB it is already too high. For records I would suggest to keep the peak levels at -10db. If the problem is 1) you can equalize the preamp output, but better would be to adjust the needle or replace it. 2) If you do not have very good speakers, better use headphones to control the sound. 3) Ask your wife if it sounds clear and undistorted. 4) Get a computer and rework cracks, equalize, normalize with CoolEdit (has now a new name). Keep filtering to a minimum and do the cracks by hand. You need lots of experience and time... Only then the CD will be better than the vinyl. -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
#3
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
In article RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51,
Sean Fulop wrote: Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. If you're comparing the sound of the LP played back normally, with the sound of the LP digitized to CD-R with the loudspeakers turned off (or down), it may be that you're hearing the relative absence in the latter case of microphonics and acoustic feedback. There are a number of pathways by which a turntable can pick airborn and structure-born sound, and mix it into the signal being delivered by the stylus. In extreme cases this can cause howling; in lesser cases it may cause other audible effects. You might also be hearing the effect of slight inaccuracies in the frequency response of your CD recorder's analog input, or the effect of the low-pass filtering at 20 kHz or so which is done as a matter of necessity. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. Unlikely, I think. The HF distortions you note (or don't note) are going to have a relatively small absolute amplitude. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. I recommend that you avoid that. Clipping of the signal will tend to sound worse, rather than better. There's no really good reason to transcribe LPs at near-clipping volume. The LP's residual noise floor is going to be high enough that you can turn down the recording level quite a lot, without running into the low end of a CD-R's dynamic range. I generally try to keep the peaks of the LP transcription about 1 bit (6 dB) below clipping. This leaves plenty of headroom at the high end, for unexpectedly "hot" passages, and I've never had a problem at the quiet end of the range. LP surface noise (even on the quietest vinyl I have), and low-frequency content from residual record warp are reproduced with excellent fidelity :-) How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. Some standalone recorders might have been built with built-in peak-compression circuits, to try to compress such peaks without clipping them harshly (and digital clipping is usually quite harsh). However, I don't know offhand of any such. It should be easy to "rip" a track or two from one of your CD-Rs, and examine the digital data to see if it hit the rails and was sheared off at the tops and bottoms. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#4
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
In article RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51,
Sean Fulop wrote: Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. Depending upon your setup, it is possible for acoustic feedback to affect the sound of a vinyl record, by causing the disc to vibrate. This is essentially impossible when the source is a CD. Even before CDs came out, I suspected that this could be a problem, and thought about some experiments to prove/disprove the notion, but I never got around to carrying them out. The phenomenon could account for a difference between the sound of a vinyl and that of a CD made from the vinyl, even when the rest of the system is unchanced. My presumption is that with a *good* A-to-D converter (and they are not all that hard to find), the CD would accurately capture all the data from the vinyl that mattered. Isaac |
#5
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
"Ban" wrote in message
news:Q2lxc.15369$HG.7547@attbi_s53... The vinyl record has never more than 55-60dB dynamic range so there is no need to record at high level. When the average loud level is at -12dB with peaks to -3dB it is already too high. For records I would suggest to keep the peak levels at -10db. Just trying to follow your logic with this. Regardless of the dynamic range limits of the source, why would you advise him to throw away bits by recording with peaks at -10db. Not only does this throw some bits away, but it also causes his CD's apparent loudness to be 10 db below commercially manufactured CD's which are normalized (not compressed) to maximize the gain structure of the entire playback chain. Charles Tomaras Seattle, WA |
#6
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play your TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from acoustic feedback. When you did your transfers, the level was low enough that this didn't occur. And of course such feedback has no effect on a CD player,, so the CD playback sounds different from the LP at normal playback levels. One way to check is to listen for the difference via headphones. If acoustic/mechanical feedback is the culprit, the difference should disappear. All this with usual provisos that the comparison won't be definitive for what you can hear, unless it's done blind. -- -S. Why don't you just admit that you hate music and leave people alone. -- spiffy |
#7
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
"Sean Fulop" wrote in message
news:RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51... Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. Here are 2 (objective) possibilities: 1. You used a program that cleans up ticks and pops as it copies the LP. 2. You normally play your LPs at a volume level that causes mechanical feedback to the pickup. Not enough to be obvious, but enough to cause some degradation in the sound quality. Since there's no sound during the ripping process, this feedback is now non-existent. Then, of course, you may be imagining it. :-) Norm Strong |
#8
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level. -Sean Fulop You have just experienced CD transparency. The only down side is, you said it sounded as good as lp, we can only put this down to youthful enthusiasm ;-) |
#9
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
Perhaps music "colored" via being inputted at a high level "line" jack
sounds different (better or worse ?) than that signal inputted at a phono jack . I experience the same phenomenon from O/R tape recordings. I realize this explains nuttin, only states it somewhat differently. (I hear the same difference in recordings made when the loudspeakers are off so it's not due to feedback picked up by the stylus/cantilever/cartridge/tonearm/tt assembly.) |
#10
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
On 6/8/04 11:38 AM, in article D3lxc.62944$eY2.42912@attbi_s02, "Dave Platt"
wrote: You might also be hearing the effect of slight inaccuracies in the frequency response of your CD recorder's analog input, or the effect of the low-pass filtering at 20 kHz or so which is done as a matter of necessity. If the disks are mastered at 24bit/96kHz the effect of the filter will be less than the "brick-wall" filter for recording at 44.1kHz. Then in the digital domain a virtual "brickwall" can come in place and the resulting bitstream recorded. |
#11
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
On 8 Jun 2004 22:21:46 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:
Sean Fulop wrote: Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play your TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from acoustic feedback. I have a third: In my case, when I play LP:s I feel tense, because I don't know when the next skip, crack or groove distrion will appear. After doing the transfers I know they will sound the same every time and I can relax and listen to the music. (!) Per |
#12
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CD-R improves vinyl sound?
"Per Stromgren" wrote in message
... On 8 Jun 2004 22:21:46 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote: Sean Fulop wrote: Greetings all, I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the playback. Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play your TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from acoustic feedback. I have a third: In my case, when I play LP:s I feel tense, because I don't know when the next skip, crack or groove distrion will appear. After doing the transfers I know they will sound the same every time and I can relax and listen to the music. (!) Couldn't agree with you more on that one. Moreover, but in the same vein, not only will they sound the same every time, any CD-R have foul sounds of any kind would have been thrown into the garbage, never to be seen or heard of again. |
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