Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they
seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to
be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner
as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level
is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a
result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near
clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R)
deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT
players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous
buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level.

-Sean Fulop

Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records,
they seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems
to be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds
cleaner as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the
record level is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being
clipped out as a result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at
a level very near clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder
(recording to Audio CD-R) deal with clipping and input levels that it
cannot handle? I know DAT players used to just shut down their A-D
and produce this hideous buzzing noise whenever you input at too high
a level.

-Sean Fulop

There might be several reasons why you think it sounds better:
1) Your cartridge is not giving out enough treble, so the clipping
distortion fills in the gap.
2) Your speakers have the same problem.
3) Your hearing threshold has gone down with age, biggest change from 50 to
60.
4) The big cracks get compressed by clipping and relativly reduced in
amplitude.

The vinyl record has never more than 55-60dB dynamic range so there is no
need to record at high level. When the average loud level is at -12dB with
peaks to -3dB it is already too high. For records I would suggest to keep
the peak levels at -10db.
If the problem is 1) you can equalize the preamp output, but better would be
to adjust the needle or replace it.
2) If you do not have very good speakers, better use headphones to control
the sound.
3) Ask your wife if it sounds clear and undistorted.
4) Get a computer and rework cracks, equalize, normalize with CoolEdit (has
now a new name). Keep filtering to a minimum and do the cracks by hand. You
need lots of experience and time...

Only then the CD will be better than the vinyl.

--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

In article RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51,
Sean Fulop wrote:

Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they
seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to
be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner
as a result and otherwise identical.

If you're comparing the sound of the LP played back normally, with the
sound of the LP digitized to CD-R with the loudspeakers turned off (or
down), it may be that you're hearing the relative absence in the
latter case of microphonics and acoustic feedback. There are a number
of pathways by which a turntable can pick airborn and structure-born
sound, and mix it into the signal being delivered by the stylus. In
extreme cases this can cause howling; in lesser cases it may cause
other audible effects.

You might also be hearing the effect of slight inaccuracies in the
frequency response of your CD recorder's analog input, or the effect
of the low-pass filtering at 20 kHz or so which is done as a matter of
necessity.

I'm wondering if the record level
is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a
result of an inaccurate level meter.

Unlikely, I think. The HF distortions you note (or don't note) are
going to have a relatively small absolute amplitude.

I make CDs at a level very near
clipping.

I recommend that you avoid that. Clipping of the signal will tend to
sound worse, rather than better.

There's no really good reason to transcribe LPs at near-clipping
volume. The LP's residual noise floor is going to be high enough that
you can turn down the recording level quite a lot, without running
into the low end of a CD-R's dynamic range.

I generally try to keep the peaks of the LP transcription about 1 bit
(6 dB) below clipping. This leaves plenty of headroom at the high
end, for unexpectedly "hot" passages, and I've never had a problem at
the quiet end of the range. LP surface noise (even on the quietest
vinyl I have), and low-frequency content from residual record warp are
reproduced with excellent fidelity :-)

How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R)
deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT
players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous
buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level.

Some standalone recorders might have been built with built-in
peak-compression circuits, to try to compress such peaks without
clipping them harshly (and digital clipping is usually quite harsh).
However, I don't know offhand of any such.

It should be easy to "rip" a track or two from one of your CD-Rs, and
examine the digital data to see if it hit the rails and was sheared
off at the tops and bottoms.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

In article RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51,
Sean Fulop wrote:

Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they
seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to
be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner
as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level
is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a
result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near
clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R)
deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT
players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous
buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level.

Depending upon your setup, it is possible for acoustic feedback to
affect the sound of a vinyl record, by causing the disc to vibrate. This
is essentially impossible when the source is a CD.

Even before CDs came out, I suspected that this could be a problem, and
thought about some experiments to prove/disprove the notion, but I never
got around to carrying them out.

The phenomenon could account for a difference between the sound of a
vinyl and that of a CD made from the vinyl, even when the rest of the
system is unchanced.

My presumption is that with a *good* A-to-D converter (and they are not
all that hard to find), the CD would accurately capture all the data
from the vinyl that mattered.

Isaac

"Ban" wrote in message
news:Q2lxc.15369$HG.7547@attbi_s53...

The vinyl record has never more than 55-60dB dynamic range so there is no
need to record at high level. When the average loud level is at -12dB with
peaks to -3dB it is already too high. For records I would suggest to keep
the peak levels at -10db.

Just trying to follow your logic with this. Regardless of the dynamic range
limits of the source, why would you advise him to throw away bits by
recording with peaks at -10db. Not only does this throw some bits away, but
it also causes his CD's apparent loudness to be 10 db below commercially
manufactured CD's which are normalized (not compressed) to maximize the gain
structure of the entire playback chain.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA

Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they
seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to
be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner
as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level
is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a
result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near
clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R)
deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT
players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous
buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level.

Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play your
TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from acoustic
feedback. When you did your transfers, the level was low enough that this didn't
occur. And of course such feedback has no effect on a CD player,,
so the CD playback sounds different from the LP at normal playback
levels.

One way to check is to listen for the difference via headphones.
If acoustic/mechanical feedback is the culprit, the difference should
disappear.

All this with usual provisos that the comparison won't be definitive
for what you can hear, unless it's done blind.





--

-S.
Why don't you just admit that you hate music and leave people alone. --
spiffy

"Sean Fulop" wrote in message
news:RX9xc.18779$Sw.14228@attbi_s51...
Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records,
they
seem to sound better than playing the record.

Here are 2 (objective) possibilities:

1. You used a program that cleans up ticks and pops as it copies the
LP.

2. You normally play your LPs at a volume level that causes
mechanical feedback to the pickup. Not enough to be obvious, but
enough to cause some degradation in the sound quality. Since there's
no sound during the ripping process, this feedback is now
non-existent.

Then, of course, you may be imagining it. :-)

Norm Strong

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback. I have noticed this effect in my CDs made from records, they
seem to sound better than playing the record. (no, I have not
objectively tested this perception). The specific improvement seems to
be decreased high-frequency tracking distortions, the CD sounds cleaner
as a result and otherwise identical. I'm wondering if the record level
is set high enough so that the HF distortions are being clipped out as a
result of an inaccurate level meter. I make CDs at a level very near
clipping. How does a standalone CD recorder (recording to Audio CD-R)
deal with clipping and input levels that it cannot handle? I know DAT
players used to just shut down their A-D and produce this hideous
buzzing noise whenever you input at too high a level.

-Sean Fulop

You have just experienced CD transparency.
The only down side is, you said it sounded as good as lp,
we can only put this down to youthful enthusiasm ;-)

Perhaps music "colored" via being inputted at a high level "line" jack
sounds different (better or worse ?) than that signal inputted at a phono
jack . I experience the same phenomenon from O/R tape recordings. I realize
this explains nuttin, only states it somewhat differently. (I hear the same
difference in recordings made when the loudspeakers are off so it's not due
to feedback picked up by the stylus/cantilever/cartridge/tonearm/tt
assembly.)

On 6/8/04 11:38 AM, in article D3lxc.62944$eY2.42912@attbi_s02, "Dave Platt"
wrote:

You might also be hearing the effect of slight inaccuracies in the
frequency response of your CD recorder's analog input, or the effect
of the low-pass filtering at 20 kHz or so which is done as a matter of
necessity.

If the disks are mastered at 24bit/96kHz the effect of the filter will be
less than the "brick-wall" filter for recording at 44.1kHz. Then in the
digital domain a virtual "brickwall" can come in place and the resulting
bitstream recorded.

On 8 Jun 2004 22:21:46 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback.

Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play your
TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from acoustic
feedback.

I have a third: In my case, when I play LP:s I feel tense, because I
don't know when the next skip, crack or groove distrion will appear.
After doing the transfers I know they will sound the same every time
and I can relax and listen to the music. (!)

Per

"Per Stromgren" wrote in message
...
On 8 Jun 2004 22:21:46 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

Sean Fulop wrote:
Greetings all,

I'm wondering if I am crazy or if you think it is possible for a CD
recording of a vinyl record to actually improve the sound of the
playback.

Don't know , but I can speculate on another possibilty: When you play
your
TT over your stereo at normal volume, it suffers some vibration from
acoustic
feedback.

I have a third: In my case, when I play LP:s I feel tense, because I
don't know when the next skip, crack or groove distrion will appear.
After doing the transfers I know they will sound the same every time
and I can relax and listen to the music. (!)

Couldn't agree with you more on that one. Moreover, but in the same vein,
not only will they sound the same every time, any CD-R have foul sounds of
any kind would have been thrown into the garbage, never to be seen or heard
of again.