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#1
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Magnaplanar MG 3.3 Imaging Problems.
Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying .....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals |
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#2
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What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for
their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off the rear wall. Kal On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve wrote: Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals |
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#3
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On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve wrote:
Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. In my experience, this is a feature of all *reall* good imaging speakers. Think about the physics involved, and you'll see that the bisector is the *only* place where you can maintain correct phase relationships at all frequencies. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. That's because they don't image accurately *anywhere*. Try it with say KEF Q1s, and you'll notice a big difference. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. As with ultra-sharp camera lenses, any movement away from the plane of focus is very obvious. With soft-focus lenses, however.............. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers? Yes, and of all other large line-source planars (I have Apogee Duetta Signatures) , and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Try placing them touching the back wall at a 45 degree angle, with the tweeters on the outside edges. This works very well for me, makes the speakers much less obtrusive, and evens up the far-field bass. See my page on http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/ for an illustration. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#4
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Kalman Rubinson wrote:
What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off the rear wall. Kal Hi Kal. The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre. On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve wrote: Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals |
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#5
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Steve wrote:
Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals This will happen if the environs around them are too dead or if you find yourself in the radiation pattern of the nearer speaker much stronger than the other. On the first problem, you should not have a lot of sound killing materials on the walls around the speakers. In an extreme case, the precedence effect will cause all of the imaging to be from the nearer speaker. You decrease this problem somewhat if you can decrease the ratio of direct sound from the speaker. On the second problem, you can toe in the speakers toward the center, so that you are more in the direct pattern of the farther speaker and less in the pattern of the nearer speaker when you go off-center. Place the speakers well away from the front and side walls, ideally at a spot that is 1/4 of the room width out from the front wall and in from the side walls. For example, in a 16 ft wide room, place them 4 ft out and 4 ft from the side walls, which would be 8 ft apart. Toe them in to make a mono source image stay put in the center as you walk across, and you should have it. I know these speakers should image well, and I also know you are probably going crazy because there are so many variables in setting up speakers it's hard to know where to start. I hope my suggestions will help. Start there, and then branch out to experiment. Gary Eickmeier |
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#6
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That is the classic scenario for planar speakers and is why I don't
care for them. The better ones sound nice as long as you are seated and in the sweet spot laterally, but then they just make for a smooth sounding mono system at other locations. At least the larger types can deliver some bass and dynamics. A nice pair of dynamic speakers will cure that to a large degree. Dispersion is the term used to describe the radiation pattern of the speakers and planar speakers have a very narrow horizontal dispersion pattern, so much so that the effect you describe is called "beaming" by many. Another limitation of them is often available power. -Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 "Steve" wrote in message ... Kalman Rubinson wrote: What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off the rear wall. Kal Hi Kal. The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre. On 14 Jan 2005 20:31:17 GMT, Steve wrote: Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals |
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#7
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Uptown Audio wrote:
That is the classic scenario for planar speakers and is why I don't care for them. The better ones sound nice as long as you are seated and in the sweet spot laterally, but then they just make for a smooth sounding mono system at other locations. One way to fix this is to orient them sideways, but that only works if it is a single panel design. Magnepan's little $350 speakers are like this. Or, get one that is curved a bit. |
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#8
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On 15 Jan 2005 16:24:07 GMT, Steve wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote: What is the wall behind them? Maggies, being dipoles, depend for their sound on the rear radiation that is reflected back at you off the rear wall. Kal Hi Kal. The wall behind is a standard breeze block wall with plaster / paper covering, about 3 ft behind them. I tried them closer to the wall but this mucked up the sound and didnt change the image much at all. When sitting dead center it is gorgeous, but only at dead, absolute centre. As Outsor has suggested, you should try experimenting with diffusion materials (not absorption) behind/between the Maggies. The price of widening the sweet spot might, however, be less specificity in the middle. Kal |
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#9
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Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly
at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I have had various cone speakers of good merit, Celestion, Kef, Meridian and Spendor to name but a few and they just don't do this. The actual tonal balance and sound quality of the Maggies is sublime....the ability to cast a solid image anywhere other that absolute dead center is , frankly, appalling. I have tried them everywhere around the lounge, all to no avail. Is this a characteristic of these speakers?, and yes I did listen before buying ....in the hi-fi shop ....where I was, surprise..surprise ...sat dead centre...has anyone out there got a pair of these and can listen off center without the singer immediatly throwing him/ her self into the speaker which they have inched to? and yes they are all in phase and all the fuses are good and all the ribbon units are working, I checked about a hundred times already. I have tried toe in, toe out, moving away and closer from me , closer together and further apart...Tweeter ribbons inside and outside. Failing getting them to image, an alternative suggestion maybe ? which sounds like the Maggies and can at least attempt to image? Thanks Guys n Gals I've owned 3.3r's for many years and several rooms. I love them but, there is one place in the room they sound magical. You can move that spot around, but not spread it out much. They sound OK elsewhere but once you've sat in the sweet spot, you'll never settle for anyplace else. Oh, BTW, I have learned to tweak the recording by moving my chair closer or further from the speakers. Makes a big difference in presentation and adds several degrees of audiophilia nerversa. Philip |
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#11
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"Philip Procter" wrote in message
... Does anyone out there know how to get these damn things to image solidly at anything other than Dead Centre. It is like sitting between a bubble spirit level, any slight move to either side and the image skews to that side..especially on male vocal center stage. I've owned 3.3r's for many years and several rooms. I love them but, there is one place in the room they sound magical. You can move that spot around, but not spread it out much. They sound OK elsewhere but once you've sat in the sweet spot, you'll never settle for anyplace else. Oh, BTW, I have learned to tweak the recording by moving my chair closer or further from the speakers. Makes a big difference in presentation and adds several degrees of audiophilia nerversa. Whole heatedly agreed. I've listened to and owned a variety of 6 and 8 panel Tympanis for over 30 years in 3 residences including that of a friend. Using the equilateral triangle methodology, the larger Maggies are more forgiving of a pin-point sweet spot than are most , if not *all* other loudspeakers. If you are trying to let a friend hear exactly what you hear you must get out of your chair to let him/her into it. I've tried moving my chair further/closer to the loudspeakers as does Mr. Proctor. Tape a long string, rope, speaker cable, or whatever to dead center of your listening chair and adjust its distance so that its equal to the distance to the exact center of the L/R ribbon tweeters and you will be in a heaven that absolutely no other speaker will provide. Forget about enlarging the area of the sweet spot, how many seats can you occupy at the same time? :-) |
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