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#41
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 9/08/2018 9:04 AM, Pamela wrote:
I've never understood this properly but on a linear arm turntable, wouldn't there still be a lateral force experienced by the stylus (which some sensor then picks up and activates the arm servo)? Of course. Should be no more than with any other turntable/arm combo though. Isn't that lateral force going to introduce at least some audio distortion? The lateral force by itself should not introduce very much distortion, and no more than any other turntable (probably less). It's an unavoidable consequence of dragging a rock through vinyl. What you do gain is the stylus is always at the proper angle to the groove, or so close as makes no difference. Whether you introduce other problems though is another matter. Funny though that some people forget the lathe cutter head suffers from these same problems and is already embedded on the disc. :-) |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's?Huge difference? No?
Ralph Barone wrote:
Thanks for the history lesson Scott. Did anyone ever plot the equivalent of the Fletcher-Munson curves for cocaine? Not that I can find, and I did a bunch of medline searches a decade ago. If anyone knows of any research on how marijuana or cocaine changes hearing perception (not research on long-term changes in hearing.. there are plenty of those) I'd love to see some. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#43
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 9/08/2018 9:04 AM, Pamela wrote: I've never understood this properly but on a linear arm turntable, wouldn't there still be a lateral force experienced by the stylus (which some sensor then picks up and activates the arm servo)? Of course. Should be no more than with any other turntable/arm combo though. My arm has an anti-skate mechanism that adds adjustable amount of lateral force to keep the stylus centered perfectly in the groove. You can't do that with a linear-tracking arm... the inner edge of the groove -has- to have more force on it in order to push the arm down the support rod. (The servo control reduces the amount of force needed but it just helps what is already there). Isn't that lateral force going to introduce at least some audio distortion? The lateral force by itself should not introduce very much distortion, and no more than any other turntable (probably less). It's an unavoidable consequence of dragging a rock through vinyl. What you do gain is the stylus is always at the proper angle to the groove, or so close as makes no difference. Whether you introduce other problems though is another matter. Funny though that some people forget the lathe cutter head suffers from these same problems and is already embedded on the disc. :-) The lathe cutter is driven mechanically by a leadscrew. It is always centered in the groove because it's making the groove. With an Edison cylinder, the playback stylus is ALSO moved down the record by a leadscrew, so with that configuration you CAN get perfect centering. You can't do that with an LP though, because the pitch varies. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 9/08/2018 10:25 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote: On 9/08/2018 9:04 AM, Pamela wrote: I've never understood this properly but on a linear arm turntable, wouldn't there still be a lateral force experienced by the stylus (which some sensor then picks up and activates the arm servo)? Of course. Should be no more than with any other turntable/arm combo though. My arm has an anti-skate mechanism that adds adjustable amount of lateral force to keep the stylus centered perfectly in the groove. You do realise the arm *HAS* to have some force from the groove wall in order for it to follow the groove and move toward the centre of the record right? It's NOT telepathic with an alien external force doing the job for it! :-) The anti-skating mechanism is just to make sure the forces are of the correct magnitude to provide the desired result. You can't do that with a linear-tracking arm... the inner edge of the groove -has- to have more force on it in order to push the arm down the support rod. (The servo control reduces the amount of force needed but it just helps what is already there). Yep, SAME as with a normal arm except there is NO servo to help. In fact the air bearing linear tracking arms with no servo are very similar to a standard pivoted arm in that respect. Isn't that lateral force going to introduce at least some audio distortion? The lateral force by itself should not introduce very much distortion, and no more than any other turntable (probably less). It's an unavoidable consequence of dragging a rock through vinyl. What you do gain is the stylus is always at the proper angle to the groove, or so close as makes no difference. Whether you introduce other problems though is another matter. Funny though that some people forget the lathe cutter head suffers from these same problems and is already embedded on the disc. :-) The lathe cutter is driven mechanically by a leadscrew. It is always centered in the groove because it's making the groove. Right, and that leadscrew causes no jitter, no "rumble" or any other groove anomolies right? :-) There are *always* problems, just different ones, or ones people simply choose to ignore! :-( |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 8/9/2018 9:11 AM, Trevor wrote:
There are *always* problems, just different ones, or ones people simply choose to ignore! :-( Not choose to ignore, choose to accept (or for the uninitiated, not notice). If everyone wanted the highest quality record player, there would be no cheap record players, and cheap people wouldn't play records. That's not good. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 6:49:05 PM UTC-5, Trevor wrote:
I am not sure if you think you are telling us something we haven't been well aware of for the last 2-3 decades? Good point, but I was mostly writing to show that those of us who collect and use vinyl are under no illusions about its inherent wonderfulness. |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 10/08/2018 12:20 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ralph Barone wrote: Thanks for the history lesson Scott. Did anyone ever plot the equivalent of the Fletcher-Munson curves for cocaine? Not that I can find, and I did a bunch of medline searches a decade ago. If anyone knows of any research on how marijuana or cocaine changes hearing perception (not research on long-term changes in hearing.. there are plenty of those) I'd love to see some. --scott I'd guess pot enables (enabled ?) one to hear hidden lyrical meanings and musical tones and subtle nuances that are really amaaazing. But possibly not actually there. Dunno about coke, but if one heard something in some way differently one probably wouldn't care anyway. geoff |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 10/08/2018 2:39 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 8/9/2018 9:11 AM, Trevor wrote: There are *always* problems, just different ones, or ones people simply choose to ignore! :-( Not choose to ignore, choose to accept (or for the uninitiated, not notice). A fairly subtle difference, but fair enough. If everyone wanted the highest quality record player, there would be no cheap record players, and cheap people wouldn't play records. That's not good. Why not? Less people ruining records on cheap turntables for no logical reason would be a good thing IMO. |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 10/08/2018 08:12, Trevor wrote:
On 10/08/2018 2:39 AM, Mike Rivers wrote: If everyone wanted the highest quality record player, there would be no cheap record players, and cheap people wouldn't play records. That's not good. Why not? Less people ruining records on cheap turntables for no logical reason would be a good thing IMO. Because many people buying records to play on cheap turntables is what pays for the recording and manufacture. The way the cheapskates then often go on to buy the same recordings on CD or as an MP3 download, due to their disappointment with the quality of vinyl playback, is also a help towards the set up costs. If only audiophiles bought vinyl, the market would be so small you'd be paying five or six times the current price for an LP, assuming it was actually financially worth making them in the first place. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 10/08/2018 5:35 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 10/08/2018 08:12, Trevor wrote: On 10/08/2018 2:39 AM, Mike Rivers wrote: If everyone wanted the highest quality record player, there would be no cheap record players, and cheap people wouldn't play records. That's not good. Why not? Less people ruining records on cheap turntables for no logical reason would be a good thing IMO. Because many people buying records to play on cheap turntables is what pays for the recording and manufacture. The way the cheapskates then often go on to buy the same recordings on CD or as an MP3 download, due to their disappointment with the quality of vinyl playback, is also a help towards the set up costs. If only audiophiles bought vinyl, the market would be so small you'd be paying five or six times the current price for an LP, assuming it was actually financially worth making them in the first place. Since I haven't bought any vinyl for 30 years, I'm hardly worried! :-) The idea of someone paying 3 or 4 times the price of a CD to play it on a crappy turntable does amuse me though. :-) |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
John Williamson wrote:
If only audiophiles bought vinyl, the market would be so small you'd be paying five or six times the current price for an LP, assuming it was actually financially worth making them in the first place. Which is what the market was like in the 1990s. It was a very limited audiophile market, and the only records being pressed were special audiophile pressings at five or six (or ten) times the current market rate. The current craze has dropped prices a lot (although there are a lot of pretty crappy-sounding discs being issued these days which would never have sold in the 1990s too). --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 7:49:05 PM UTC-4, Brassplyer wrote:
Ever heard an exotic turntable in action? Do you have one? Do you feel the difference between it and say a correctly set up Technics SL1200MK2 is night and day? Audio technica makes a line of what I would consider high end cartridges. I'd like to see some sales figures. When I questioned one of their folks about it at NAB, he said, "You have no idea!!!" in a way that made me think they too were surprised by the market. At the top of their line is a $5K USD cartridge. Holy crap!!! https://www.audio-technica.com/cgi-b...s..pl?lang=eng |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ralph Barone wrote: Thanks for the history lesson Scott. Did anyone ever plot the equivalent of the Fletcher-Munson curves for cocaine? Not that I can find, and I did a bunch of medline searches a decade ago. If anyone knows of any research on how marijuana or cocaine changes hearing perception (not research on long-term changes in hearing.. there are plenty of those) I'd love to see some. --scott I'd think you could use Don Felder's first solo record as a data source. -- Les Cargill |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 8/6/2018 7:18 AM, Phil W wrote:
Trevor: On 6/08/2018 2:04 AM, John Williamson wrote: On 05/08/2018 16:40, Don Pearce wrote: On 5 Aug 2018 10:08:06 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Go to a high end show and listen to some of the systems there, they are often all over the place.Â* Very clean sounding systems next to horribly honky ones. --scott Yep, some of them are so good they come up to level about 5% of that of a cheap CD player. About as good as a 64kbps mp3 file, then? Only if you add wow, flutter, rumble, tics, pops, distortion etc. to that MP3 file. Once did that to a 128kbs MP3 to see how many people preferred it to the CD it was taken from (without telling them what I was playing of course) No surprise there were a few. :-) Izotope´s old "Vinyl" plug-in is still around and has even been "renewed" somehow some years ago... so, there´s also a bit of "vintage digital" for those, who are mainly after "vintage" whatever... https://www.izotope.com/en/company/p...cts/vinyl.html I had thought of using Vinyl to alter some pristine files and call them 'Before' and name the originals as 'After' and send them to my audio geek buddies to show off my restoration skills. I don't think many would figure out how it was done. Never did get around to doing it though. |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 30/08/2018 8:28 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
On 8/6/2018 7:18 AM, Phil W wrote: Trevor: On 6/08/2018 2:04 AM, John Williamson wrote: On 05/08/2018 16:40, Don Pearce wrote: On 5 Aug 2018 10:08:06 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Go to a high end show and listen to some of the systems there, they are often all over the place.Â* Very clean sounding systems next to horribly honky ones. --scott Yep, some of them are so good they come up to level about 5% of that of a cheap CD player. About as good as a 64kbps mp3 file, then? Only if you add wow, flutter, rumble, tics, pops, distortion etc. to that MP3 file. Once did that to a 128kbs MP3 to see how many people preferred it to the CD it was taken from (without telling them what I was playing of course) No surprise there were a few. :-) Izotope´s old "Vinyl" plug-in is still around and has even been "renewed" somehow some years ago... so, there´s also a bit of "vintage digital" for those, who are mainly after "vintage" whatever... https://www.izotope.com/en/company/p...cts/vinyl.html I had thought of using Vinyl to alter some pristine files and call them 'Before' and name the originals as 'After' and send them to my audio geek buddies to show off my restoration skills. I don't think many would figure out how it was done. Never did get around to doing it though. Well ... I've listened extensively ( a while ago) to Linn LP12, and have owned Mitchell Focus, Garrard 301/SME plinth+arm, and now have Thorens something-or-other with SME3 and Audio Technica 30 something-or-other moving-coil cartridge. The Garrard was probably least good (probably due to idler-wheel drive), but was the most lucrative to sell ! The Mitchell was striking (all sheet-glass). Comparing CD to LP doesn't seem remotely close on any, possibly due to different mastering and outroight different media technical media (even after the LP 'artifacts' are taken into account). geoff |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Ever heard an exotic high-dollar turntable playing LP's? Hugedifference? No?
On 30/08/2018 11:28 PM, geoff wrote:
On 30/08/2018 8:28 PM, gray_wolf wrote: On 8/6/2018 7:18 AM, Phil W wrote: Trevor: On 6/08/2018 2:04 AM, John Williamson wrote: On 05/08/2018 16:40, Don Pearce wrote: On 5 Aug 2018 10:08:06 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Go to a high end show and listen to some of the systems there, they are often all over the place.Â* Very clean sounding systems next to horribly honky ones. --scott Yep, some of them are so good they come up to level about 5% of that of a cheap CD player. About as good as a 64kbps mp3 file, then? Only if you add wow, flutter, rumble, tics, pops, distortion etc. to that MP3 file. Once did that to a 128kbs MP3 to see how many people preferred it to the CD it was taken from (without telling them what I was playing of course) No surprise there were a few. :-) Izotope´s old "Vinyl" plug-in is still around and has even been "renewed" somehow some years ago... so, there´s also a bit of "vintage digital" for those, who are mainly after "vintage" whatever... https://www.izotope.com/en/company/p...cts/vinyl.html I had thought of using Vinyl to alter some pristine files and call them 'Before' and name the originals as 'After' and send them to my audio geek buddies to show off my restoration skills. I don't think many would figure out how it was done. Never did get around to doing it though. Well ... I've listened extensively ( a while ago) to Linn LP12, and have owned Mitchell Focus, Garrard 301/SME plinth+arm, and now have Thorens something-or-other with SME3 and Audio Technica 30 something-or-other moving-coil cartridge. The Garrard was probably least good (probably due to idler-wheel drive), but was the most lucrative to sell !Â* The Mitchell was striking (all sheet-glass). Comparing CD to LP doesn't seem remotely close on any, possibly due to different mastering and outroight different media technical media (even after the LP 'artifacts' are taken into account). geoff .... but record the LP and play back on CD, and it sound exactly the same as the LP did. geoff |
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