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#1
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Metering Software Question
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless info. Actually worse than useless... It's hard to believe such lunacy could independently occur in more than one person. Any pointers to the actual source would be appreciated. Billy Y.. -- sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer bcc 20$ ; not a number |
#3
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Metering Software Question
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 04:14:57 +0000 (UTC), wrote: I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. On 2/3/2017 2:56 AM, Don Pearce wrote: That's simple. The source is the analogue mechanical meter on which it was based. The pointer doesn't vanish when the peak is finished, it slowly drifts down, one graduation at a time. There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of noticing that something overloaded. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#4
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Metering Software Question
Mike Rivers wrote:
There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of noticing that something overloaded. ** Most peak reading VUs and also PPMs have slow fall back times - it stops needle blur and improves reading accuracy with repeated peak levels. I guess you either like it like that, or you don't. ..... Phil |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 03/02/2017 12:00, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 04:14:57 +0000 (UTC), wrote: I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. On 2/3/2017 2:56 AM, Don Pearce wrote: That's simple. The source is the analogue mechanical meter on which it was based. The pointer doesn't vanish when the peak is finished, it slowly drifts down, one graduation at a time. There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of noticing that something overloaded. There is also a standard for a (Quasi)PPM, initially set back in the days when the BBC started using them in the 1930s. It's set at about 2.3 seconds to drop by 24db (Six scale divisions) when the signal disappears entirely. The meter should integrate short peaks, depending on their level taking up to 100ms to show a true peak level and under reading on shorter ones. It works in the same way as the peak hold facility on my DAW metering, but with a slower rise time. PPM's were normally only used in broadcast settings, with most people using VU meters for day to day recordings. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
In article , wrote:
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless info. Actually worse than useless... What does this? I have never seen that... it would drive me up the wall and I don't think that meets BS.1770... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 04:14:57 +0000 (UTC), wrote: I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. On 2/3/2017 2:56 AM, Don Pearce wrote: That's simple. The source is the analogue mechanical meter on which it was based. The pointer doesn't vanish when the peak is finished, it slowly drifts down, one graduation at a time. There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of noticing that something overloaded. Don is thinking of a peak hold meter like a PPU meter. And they do actually do that. But, the problem comes when you put peak and average meters on the same display.... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 03/02/2017 14:17, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , wrote: I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless info. Actually worse than useless... What does this? I have never seen that... it would drive me up the wall and I don't think that meets BS.1770... --scott An electronic version of a PPM as used by the BBC. It complies with IEC 60268-10 (1991) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_programme_meter -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 4/02/2017 1:08 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of noticing that something overloaded. ** Most peak reading VUs and also PPMs have slow fall back times - it stops needle blur and improves reading accuracy with repeated peak levels. I guess you either like it like that, or you don't. .... Phil That's because the needle cannot follow the real signal AND hold a display of the peak at the same time. A peak LED can stay on for a period while the rest of the meter follows the real signal level, so surely a slowly descending peak LED is pointless and stupid ? geoff |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message
... Scott D'Orsey! wrote: " What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning? |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 10:53:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: " What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters. Jack |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote:
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message ... Scott D'Orsey! wrote: " What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning? When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-) Jack |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
JackA wrote: "On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote:
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message ... Scott D'Orsey! wrote: " What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning? When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-) Jack " Stop talking to machines! |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
thekhhhmah @ brain_damage.dumb****sRthekma.org wrote in
Stop talking to machines! Stop feeding the turd, tard. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 4:39:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
JackA wrote: "On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote: thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message ... Scott D'Orsey! wrote: " What does this? I have never seen that... " You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if you keep cycling it would turn off such slow downward cascade. What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning? When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-) Jack " Stop talking to machines! Just keeping him company until his short bus shows up! Jack |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 04/02/2017 18:04, JackA wrote:
As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters. Jack A gentle hint. When you are down a hole up to your eyeballs, stop digging. That post shows how little claim you have to even a little knowledge of how the recording process works at the sharp end of the business, but we all knew that anyway. Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention and more. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
John Williamson wrote: "Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound
that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention and more. " Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard! I suspect that he and JackA are in the same camp. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
"John Williamson" wrote in message
... sneck Please don't feed the turd. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
thekmama @ reet.tards.com wrote in message
... Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard! Why don't your tell him yourself, li'l buddy? You can't expect everyone else to ride the fetid rotting corpse of your hobby horse, of course, of course. He's dead, Jim. LJDS KNS CKWAFA. AARDF! |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
Scott Dorsey writes, quoting me:
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function. Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless info. Actually worse than useless... What does this? I have never seen that... The Sound Devices PIX series of recorders, among others, but theirs are what finally got me interested in seeking out the creator of this crap. Sound Devices themselves are incapable of responding coherently. it would drive me up the wall and I don't think that meets BS.1770... I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm back at Fox. I don't normally use these recorders - in fact, due to numerous other bugs/moronity I go out of my way to avoid them. Just one of many is their completely disabling use of the "-" character in file and track names coz they can't otherwise figure out how to parse it as the delmiter for mono wave file track numbers. And if that's not bad enough, they then sent me on a useless hunt for a keyboard with a working "-" key... Billy Y.. -- sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer bcc 20$ ; not a number |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 6:58:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
John Williamson wrote: "Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention and more. " Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard! I suspect that he and JackA are in the same camp. How do YOU tell when you're listening to the actual first generation master tape? You look at meters? No, you use your ears. Jack |
#23
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Metering Software Question
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 5:34:43 AM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 04/02/2017 18:04, JackA wrote: As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters. Jack A gentle hint. When you are down a hole up to your eyeballs, stop digging.. That post shows how little claim you have to even a little knowledge of how the recording process works at the sharp end of the business, but we all knew that anyway. Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention and more. -- Tciao for Now! John. You MAY remember this hit from 1968. I never heard it sound so good. Why I use my ears to tell me where there's distortion, because metters can't... http://www.angelfire.com/empire/abps...iloveyou-s.mp3 Jack |
#24
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Metering Software Question
I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox. http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV or http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4 Billy Y.. -- sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer bcc 20$ ; not a number |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
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#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote:
I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm back at Fox. http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV or http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4 Billy Y.. Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel. The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it, giving you the information you need to avoid clipping. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 11:18:13 PM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote: I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm back at Fox. http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV or http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4 Billy Y.. Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel. The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it, giving you the information you need to avoid clipping. -- Tciao for Now! John. PPM Parts Per Million? PPM Potable People Meter? Jack |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
JackA: PPM
Peak Program Meter. Others here would tell you to just 'Look it up'" |
#29
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Metering Software Question
On 9/02/2017 5:17 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote: I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm back at Fox. http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV or http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4 Billy Y.. Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel. The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it, giving you the information you need to avoid clipping. So what is the useful significance of the peak indicator slowly dropping back (yes, hold it for a period for sure, to ensure it isn't missed), when no signal is actually doing that ? Surely the actual peak and the current signal are all that is important, and the animated toy means nothing at all ? geoff |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
geoff writes, quoting
John Williamson: Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel. The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it, giving you the information you need to avoid clipping. So what is the useful significance of the peak indicator slowly dropping back (yes, hold it for a period for sure, to ensure it isn't missed), when no signal is actually doing that ? Yes, I'm interested in John's answer to that, too. Emulating the ballistics of a mechanical (PPM) meter's pointer decay time does not provide any useful information about the peak signal level. Nor does it even seem necessary in a non-mechanical display, where the average level is also always visible. The only information I need to avoid clipping are the actual peak amplitudes. For reference & comparison, by the way, here are some actual PPMs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPqr0gwOyr0 After a short time looking at the Dorrough meters supplied with the sound equipment package (peak indicators track actual amplitude quite closely), I tried setting the Sound Devices recorder's peak indicator hold time to 0, but no joy - it still drifts downward the same meaningless way. Surely the actual peak and the current signal are all that is important, and the animated toy means nothing at all ? For what it's worth, here's another user of this same metering software... http://www.censusdigital.com/c-series-audio-monitors ....but their decay time is faster, and thus less annoying. NB that doesn't mean not annoying. Heh. Billy Y.. -- sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer bcc 20$ ; not a number |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 2/9/2017 4:06 PM, wrote:
Emulating the ballistics of a mechanical (PPM) meter's pointer decay time does not provide any useful information about the peak signal level. Nor does it even seem necessary in a non-mechanical display, where the average level is also always visible. Your little video was too much video for my feeble computer to play, but I think I know what you're talking about. The explanation could be as simple as that it draws your attention to the fact that you had a peak and that maybe you should drop your record level a tad. It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on until you reset it. Just get used to it. You probably have better things to do than stare at your meters all the time anyway. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#32
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Metering Software Question
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#33
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Metering Software Question
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#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 6:14:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
JackA: PPM Peak Program Meter. Others here would tell you to just 'Look it up'" Look, a DECENT writer is not lazy and at least spells out his abbreviations out once, especially when that same abbreviation is used elsewhere. Thanks. Jack |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
Mike Rivers writes:
Your little video was too much video for my feeble computer to play, but I think I know what you're talking about. OK, here's a 640x360 copy - http://MIX.ORG/__IMG_0588.MP4 The explanation could be as simple as that it draws your attention to the fact that you had a peak and that maybe you should drop your record level a tad. I can't imagine anyone working that way... It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on until you reset it. ....and I don't see how this can be. You probably have better things to do than stare at your meters all the time anyway. True, but it's nonetheless annoying when I do look. Billy Y.. -- sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer bcc 20$ ; not a number |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
In article , wrote:
Mike Rivers writes: You probably have better things to do than stare at your meters all the time anyway. True, but it's nonetheless annoying when I do look. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from Gabe Weiner was to get an outboard RTW digital meter. I did this thing and never looked back. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Metering Software Question
On 2/10/2017 9:02 PM, wrote:
OK, here's a 640x360 copy - http://MIX.ORG/__IMG_0588.MP4 It's a bit odd, but it wouldn't really bother me. But then, I'm not a very visual person. I never played video games. The explanation could be as simple as that it draws your attention to the fact that you had a peak and that maybe you should drop your record level a tad. I can't imagine anyone working that way... I can't imagine anyone making a recording and keeping their eyes glued to a meter. But we all have our own way of doing things. Those Sound Devices machines have all sorts things on their menus. Are you sure there aren't alternative metering displays? Or are there and they all have the floating peak meter thing? You do realize, don't you, that knowing how close you are to reaching full scale level is pretty important in the digital world? Some people appreciate being informed. It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on until you reset it. ...and I don't see how this can be. Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full scale peak. You don't know if that was a fluke or if your've been banging the meter up there for a while. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#38
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Metering Software Question
Mike Rivers wrote: "You do realize, don't you, that knowing how close you are to reaching
full scale level is pretty important in the digital world? Some people appreciate being informed. " Baaaah.. Make the meters all AVG-based and move zero back where it's supposed to be - 2/3 of the way over to the right. Would solve a *host* of problems. |
#39
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Metering Software Question
On 11/02/2017 4:45 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full scale peak. You don't know if And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ? And a distraction of meaningless false information . geoff |
#40
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Metering Software Question
On 11/02/2017 11:18, geoff wrote:
On 11/02/2017 4:45 PM, Mike Rivers wrote: Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full scale peak. You don't know if And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ? And a distraction of meaningless false information . An alternative would be for the meter display showing the peak to stay lit for a fixed time, then be replaced by the next peak and so on. This would give a flashing display, which would be more distracting and even less informative than the slow drop until the next peak. Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the peaks and current average level on one meter? -- Tciao for Now! John. |
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