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[email protected] billy@MIX.COM is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless
info. Actually worse than useless...

It's hard to believe such lunacy could independently occur
in more than one person. Any pointers to the actual source
would be appreciated.

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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Phil Allison[_4_] Phil Allison[_4_] is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

Mike Rivers wrote:




There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's
pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works
like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of
noticing that something overloaded.


** Most peak reading VUs and also PPMs have slow fall back times - it stops needle blur and improves reading accuracy with repeated peak levels.

I guess you either like it like that, or you don't.



..... Phil

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 03/02/2017 12:00, Mike Rivers wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2017 04:14:57 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time.



On 2/3/2017 2:56 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
That's simple. The source is the analogue mechanical meter on which it
was based. The pointer doesn't vanish when the peak is finished, it
slowly drifts down, one graduation at a time.



There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's
pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works
like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of
noticing that something overloaded.

There is also a standard for a (Quasi)PPM, initially set back in the
days when the BBC started using them in the 1930s. It's set at about 2.3
seconds to drop by 24db (Six scale divisions) when the signal disappears
entirely. The meter should integrate short peaks, depending on their
level taking up to 100ms to show a true peak level and under reading on
shorter ones. It works in the same way as the peak hold facility on my
DAW metering, but with a slower rise time.

PPM's were normally only used in broadcast settings, with most people
using VU meters for day to day recordings.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

In article , wrote:
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless
info. Actually worse than useless...


What does this? I have never seen that... it would drive me up the wall and
I don't think that meets BS.1770...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 03/02/2017 14:17, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , wrote:
I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless
info. Actually worse than useless...


What does this? I have never seen that... it would drive me up the wall and
I don't think that meets BS.1770...
--scott

An electronic version of a PPM as used by the BBC. It complies with IEC
60268-10 (1991)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_programme_meter

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 4/02/2017 1:08 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:




There's a specific fallback time for a standard VU meter, and it's
pretty fast, not a slow crawl. While I've never seen a meter that works
like the one Billy described, my guess is to give you a better chance of
noticing that something overloaded.


** Most peak reading VUs and also PPMs have slow fall back times - it stops needle blur and improves reading accuracy with repeated peak levels.

I guess you either like it like that, or you don't.



.... Phil



That's because the needle cannot follow the real signal AND hold a
display of the peak at the same time.

A peak LED can stay on for a period while the rest of the meter follows
the real signal level, so surely a slowly descending peak LED is
pointless and stupid ?

geoff
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Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.



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Default Metering Software Question

thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message
...
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.


What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination
from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning?



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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 10:53:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.


As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters.

Jack

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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote:
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message
...
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.


What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination
from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning?


When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-)

Jack

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[email protected] thekmanrocks@gmail.com is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

JackA wrote: "On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote:
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message
...
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.


What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination
from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning?


When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-)

Jack "

Stop talking to machines!
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Default Metering Software Question

thekhhhmah @ brain_damage.dumb****sRthekma.org wrote in
Stop talking to machines!


Stop feeding the turd, tard.



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JackA JackA is offline
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On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 4:39:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
JackA wrote: "On Saturday, February 4, 2017 at 12:02:43 PM UTC-5, None wrote:
thekma @ retardsRtheckmaaaah . shortbus . edu wrote in message
...
Scott D'Orsey! wrote: "
What does this? I have never seen that... "


You would - on mostly consumer-grade gear with
meters. I'm also sure there is a button that if
you keep cycling it would turn off such slow
downward cascade.


What festering dumb-**** orifice did you pluck that hallucination
from? Did you take too many retard pills this morning?


When are we going to hear your R&B music? You know, Retarded & Boring? :-)

Jack "

Stop talking to machines!


Just keeping him company until his short bus shows up!

Jack

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 04/02/2017 18:04, JackA wrote:
As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters.

Jack

A gentle hint. When you are down a hole up to your eyeballs, stop digging.

That post shows how little claim you have to even a little knowledge of
how the recording process works at the sharp end of the business, but we
all knew that anyway.

Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound
that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same
project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention
and more.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Default Metering Software Question

John Williamson wrote: "Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound
that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same
project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention
and more. "


Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard!
I suspect that he and JackA are in the same camp.
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"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
sneck


Please don't feed the turd.


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thekmama @ reet.tards.com wrote in message
...
Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard!


Why don't your tell him yourself, li'l buddy? You can't expect
everyone else to ride the fetid rotting corpse of your hobby horse, of
course, of course. He's dead, Jim.

LJDS KNS CKWAFA. AARDF!



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Default Metering Software Question

Scott Dorsey writes, quoting me:

I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless
info. Actually worse than useless...


What does this? I have never seen that...


The Sound Devices PIX series of recorders, among others, but
theirs are what finally got me interested in seeking out the
creator of this crap. Sound Devices themselves are incapable
of responding coherently.

it would drive me up the wall and I don't think that meets
BS.1770...


I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm
back at Fox. I don't normally use these recorders - in fact,
due to numerous other bugs/moronity I go out of my way to
avoid them.

Just one of many is their completely disabling use of the "-"
character in file and track names coz they can't otherwise
figure out how to parse it as the delmiter for mono wave file
track numbers. And if that's not bad enough, they then sent
me on a useless hunt for a keyboard with a working "-" key...

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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JackA JackA is offline
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On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 6:58:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
John Williamson wrote: "Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound
that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same
project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention
and more. "


Tell that to Mr. Ian "Use Your Ears not your Eyes" Shepard!
I suspect that he and JackA are in the same camp.


How do YOU tell when you're listening to the actual first generation master tape? You look at meters? No, you use your ears.

Jack

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JackA JackA is offline
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On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 5:34:43 AM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 04/02/2017 18:04, JackA wrote:
As I feel, too many watch these VU meters like these are gospel, like hitting or going beyond a peak or two will destroy the world. I'm my expert opinion, peaks do nothing for music, why I found audiophile pressings boring. Actually, there should be a Peak, Average and RMS level for VU meters.

Jack

A gentle hint. When you are down a hole up to your eyeballs, stop digging..

That post shows how little claim you have to even a little knowledge of
how the recording process works at the sharp end of the business, but we
all knew that anyway.

Meters are an important tool, especially when you are recording sound
that has to work with sound that others record and is used in the same
project. Meters and metering software exists that does all you mention
and more.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.


You MAY remember this hit from 1968. I never heard it sound so good.
Why I use my ears to tell me where there's distortion, because metters can't...

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/abps...iloveyou-s.mp3

Jack
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I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox.


http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV
or
http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 9/02/2017 6:35 a.m., wrote:
I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox.

http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV
or
http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4

Billy Y..



Yes, very pretty , but a meaningless gimmick IMO !

geoff



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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote:
I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox.


http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV
or
http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4

Billy Y..

Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the
solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would
show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel.
The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a
standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to
be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it,
giving you the information you need to avoid clipping.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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JackA JackA is offline
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On Wednesday, February 8, 2017 at 11:18:13 PM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote:
I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox.


http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV
or
http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4

Billy Y..

Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the
solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would
show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel.
The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a
standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to
be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it,
giving you the information you need to avoid clipping.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


PPM Parts Per Million?
PPM Potable People Meter?

Jack
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JackA: PPM

Peak Program Meter.

Others here would tell you to just 'Look it up'"
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 9/02/2017 5:17 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 08/02/2017 17:35, wrote:
I will post a short movie of this later in the week,
when I'm back at Fox.


http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MOV
or
http://MIX.ORG/IMG_0588.MP4

Billy Y..

Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the
solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would
show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel.
The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a
standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to
be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it,
giving you the information you need to avoid clipping.



So what is the useful significance of the peak indicator slowly dropping
back (yes, hold it for a period for sure, to ensure it isn't missed),
when no signal is actually doing that ?

Surely the actual peak and the current signal are all that is
important, and the animated toy means nothing at all ?

geoff
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geoff writes, quoting
John Williamson:

Standard and useful metering for a lot of uses. The current level is the
solid lighted area, showing the "sort of RMS" value a VU meter would
show, as that's a good representation of the loudness of the channel.
The one segment lit up on the right is emulating the movement of a
standard PPM needle quite well, holding the peak long enough for it to
be seen clearly and slowly dropping back until the next peak resets it,
giving you the information you need to avoid clipping.


So what is the useful significance of the peak indicator slowly dropping
back (yes, hold it for a period for sure, to ensure it isn't missed),
when no signal is actually doing that ?


Yes, I'm interested in John's answer to that, too. Emulating the ballistics
of a mechanical (PPM) meter's pointer decay time does not provide any useful
information about the peak signal level. Nor does it even seem necessary in
a non-mechanical display, where the average level is also always visible.

The only information I need to avoid clipping are the actual peak amplitudes.

For reference & comparison, by the way, here are some actual PPMs -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPqr0gwOyr0

After a short time looking at the Dorrough meters supplied with the sound
equipment package (peak indicators track actual amplitude quite closely),
I tried setting the Sound Devices recorder's peak indicator hold time to 0,
but no joy - it still drifts downward the same meaningless way.

Surely the actual peak and the current signal are all that is
important, and the animated toy means nothing at all ?


For what it's worth, here's another user of this same metering software...

http://www.censusdigital.com/c-series-audio-monitors

....but their decay time is faster, and thus less annoying. NB that doesn't
mean not annoying. Heh.

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number


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On 06-02-2017 18:59, wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes, quoting me:

I'm wondering who the hell is responsible for a particularly
annoying audio peak amplitude indicator metering function.

Specifically, after the peak hold time has expired, instead
of extinguishing, the peak indicator slowly drifts downward
one segment at a time. Bink. Bink. Bink. Useless, useless
info. Actually worse than useless...


What does this? I have never seen that...


The Sound Devices PIX series of recorders, among others, but
theirs are what finally got me interested in seeking out the
creator of this crap. Sound Devices themselves are incapable
of responding coherently.

it would drive me up the wall and I don't think that meets
BS.1770...


I will post a short movie of this later in the week, when I'm
back at Fox. I don't normally use these recorders - in fact,
due to numerous other bugs/moronity I go out of my way to
avoid them.


Aha, thank you! - now I see the issue! - including the actual story in
the original post is often helpful

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Just one of many is their completely disabling use of the "-"
character in file and track names coz they can't otherwise
figure out how to parse it as the delmiter for mono wave file
track numbers. And if that's not bad enough, they then sent
me on a useless hunt for a keyboard with a working "-" key...

Billy Y..


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On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 6:14:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
JackA: PPM

Peak Program Meter.

Others here would tell you to just 'Look it up'"


Look, a DECENT writer is not lazy and at least spells out his abbreviations out once, especially when that same abbreviation is used elsewhere.

Thanks.

Jack
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Mike Rivers writes:

Your little video was too much video for my feeble computer
to play, but I think I know what you're talking about.


OK, here's a 640x360 copy - http://MIX.ORG/__IMG_0588.MP4

The explanation could be as simple as that it draws your attention
to the fact that you had a peak and that maybe you should drop your
record level a tad.


I can't imagine anyone working that way...

It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on
until you reset it.


....and I don't see how this can be.

You probably have better things to do than stare at your meters
all the time anyway.


True, but it's nonetheless annoying when I do look.

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number


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In article , wrote:
Mike Rivers writes:

You probably have better things to do than stare at your meters
all the time anyway.


True, but it's nonetheless annoying when I do look.


One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from Gabe Weiner was to get
an outboard RTW digital meter. I did this thing and never looked back.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 2/10/2017 9:02 PM, wrote:

OK, here's a 640x360 copy -
http://MIX.ORG/__IMG_0588.MP4

It's a bit odd, but it wouldn't really bother me. But then, I'm not a
very visual person. I never played video games.


The explanation could be as simple as that it draws your attention
to the fact that you had a peak and that maybe you should drop your
record level a tad.


I can't imagine anyone working that way...


I can't imagine anyone making a recording and keeping their eyes glued
to a meter. But we all have our own way of doing things. Those Sound
Devices machines have all sorts things on their menus. Are you sure
there aren't alternative metering displays? Or are there and they all
have the floating peak meter thing?

You do realize, don't you, that knowing how close you are to reaching
full scale level is pretty important in the digital world? Some people
appreciate being informed.


It's possibly more informative than a peak indicator that stays on
until you reset it.


...and I don't see how this can be.


Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full
scale peak. You don't know if that was a fluke or if your've been
banging the meter up there for a while.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Mike Rivers wrote: "You do realize, don't you, that knowing how close you are to reaching
full scale level is pretty important in the digital world? Some people
appreciate being informed. "

Baaaah.. Make the meters all AVG-based
and move zero back where it's supposed
to be - 2/3 of the way over to the right. Would
solve a *host* of problems.
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On 11/02/2017 4:45 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full
scale peak. You don't know if



And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ?
And a distraction of meaningless false information .

geoff
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Metering Software Question

On 11/02/2017 11:18, geoff wrote:
On 11/02/2017 4:45 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

Because a hold-until-reset peak meter only tells you about one full
scale peak. You don't know if



And this slow decay peak one tells you what useful information exactly ?
And a distraction of meaningless false information .

An alternative would be for the meter display showing the peak to stay
lit for a fixed time, then be replaced by the next peak and so on. This
would give a flashing display, which would be more distracting and even
less informative than the slow drop until the next peak.

Or maybe someone knows a better way of doing the job of showing the
peaks and current average level on one meter?


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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