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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

Based on a number of discussions on Two other audio forums in regards
to performance quality in classical music, I decided to post a couple
simple single blind comparisons of the same piece of music on those
forums for the other forum members to rate. Only catch was they
weren't allowed to know who the artists were. In one poll I had eight
versions of a Chopin Etude played by many different pianists from
different eras with different reputations. In the other I simply made
it two selections. I only got two voters in one poll and four in the
other. The one that got four was barely blind since it was in reaction
to the old guard v. the new young talent debate and it was easy to
discern which was the more modern recording and which was the
"historical" one. Naturally all four voted for the historical one. But
anyway. I was quite surprised at the lack of participation. Whenever I
have the opportunity this is something i enjoy doing when auditioning
performances of classical music. This is how musicians audtion now for
orchestras!

I have always been a bit suspicious of classical music fans as a
group. IME they tend to favor popular reputation over real merit.This
just adds another a little more fuel to that fire. I guess it is much
easier to know who your favorite musicians are as long as you "know
who they are."
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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Feb 13, 7:50=A0pm, Scott wrote:
Based on a number of discussions on Two other audio forumsin regardsto pe=

rformance qualityin classical music,Idecided toposta couplesimple single bl=
ind comparisons of the same piece of music on those
forums for the other forum members to rate. Only catch was theyweren't al=

lowed to know who the artists were.In one pollIhad eightversions of a Chopi=
n Etude played by many different pianists fromdifferent eras with different=
reputations.In the otherIsimply madeit two selections.Ionly got two voters=
in one poll and fourin theother. The one that got four was barely blind sin=
ceit wasin reactionto the old guard v. the new young talent debate andit wa=
s easy todiscern which was the more modern recording and which was the"hist=
orical" one. Naturally all four voted for the historical one.Butanyway.Iwas=
quite surprised at the lack of participation. WheneverIhave the opportunit=
y thisis somethingienjoy doing when auditioningperformances of classical mu=
sic. Thisis how musicians audtion now for
orchestras!

Ihave always been a bit suspicious of classical music fans as agroup.IME =

they tend to favor popular reputation over real merit.Thisjust adds another=
a little more fuel to that fire.Iguessitis mucheasier to know who your fav=
orite musicians are as long as you "know
who they are."


Looks like I jumped the gun. At one of the forums the other forum
members have started to take an interest and participate. Of course
with the open discussion it is not entirely blind anymore. but so far
the results have been varied so we don't seem to have anyone following
the heard.

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Doug McDonald[_6_] Doug McDonald[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On 2/13/2012 9:50 PM, Scott wrote:
Based on a number of discussions on Two other audio forums in regards
to performance quality in classical music, I decided to post a couple
simple single blind comparisons of the same piece of music on those
forums for the other forum members to rate. Only catch was they
weren't allowed to know who the artists were. In one poll I had eight
versions of a Chopin Etude played by many different pianists from
different eras with different reputations. In the other I simply made
it two selections. I only got two voters in one poll and four in the
other. The one that got four was barely blind since it was in reaction
to the old guard v. the new young talent debate and it was easy to
discern which was the more modern recording and which was the
"historical" one. Naturally all four voted for the historical one. But
anyway. I was quite surprised at the lack of participation. Whenever I
have the opportunity this is something i enjoy doing when auditioning
performances of classical music. This is how musicians audtion now for
orchestras!

I have always been a bit suspicious of classical music fans as a
group. IME they tend to favor popular reputation over real merit.This
just adds another a little more fuel to that fire. I guess it is much
easier to know who your favorite musicians are as long as you "know
who they are."


First, the obligatory two words: Joyce Hatto.

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?

Same for pianists. If you think otherwise, two words:
Joyce Hatto.

Doug McDonald
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Feb 14, 4:39=A0pm, Doug McDonald wrote:
On 2/13/2012 9:50 PM, Scott wrote:





Based on a number of discussions on Two other audio forums in regards
to performance quality in classical music, I decided to post a couple
simple single blind comparisons of the same piece of music on those
forums for the other forum members to rate. Only catch was they
weren't allowed to know who the artists were. In one poll I had eight
versions of a Chopin Etude played by many different pianists from
different eras with different reputations. In the other I simply made
it two selections. I only got two voters in one poll and four in the
other. The one that got four was barely blind since it was in reaction
to the old guard v. the new young talent debate and it was easy to
discern which was the more modern recording and which was the
"historical" one. Naturally all four voted for the historical one. But
anyway. I was quite surprised at the lack of participation. Whenever I
have the opportunity this is something i enjoy doing when auditioning
performances of classical music. This is how musicians audtion now for
orchestras!


I have always been a bit suspicious of classical music fans as a
group. IME they tend to favor popular reputation over real merit.This
just adds another a little more fuel to that fire. I guess it is much
easier to know who your favorite musicians are as long as you "know
who they are."


First, the obligatory two words: Joyce Hatto.

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?

Same for pianists. If you think otherwise, two words:
Joyce Hatto.



The object wasn't to name the performers. The object was to rate the
performances. That is easy to do blind. And folks have started getting
into it. The performances are easy to distinguish from one another.

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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

In article ,
Doug McDonald wrote:

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?


Sure, in many cases. Many performers approach certain challenges in the
literature in predictable ways, and some tonal qualities are quite
unique.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com



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Doug McDonald[_6_] Doug McDonald[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On 2/15/2012 10:56 AM, Jenn wrote:
In ,
Doug wrote:

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?


Sure, in many cases. Many performers approach certain challenges in the
literature in predictable ways, and some tonal qualities are quite
unique.

Sure ... how many Joyce Hattos can YOU identify? How many
Joyce Hattos WERE identified without non-blind A-B comparisons
with the originals?

How many Youtube live performances can you identify
just listening?


Doug McDonald

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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Feb 15, 4:39pm, Doug McDonald wrote:
On 2/15/2012 10:56 AM, Jenn wrote: In ,
Doug wrote:


That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?


Sure, in many cases. =A0Many performers approach certain challenges in the
literature in predictable ways, and some tonal qualities are quite
unique.


Sure ... how many Joyce Hattos can YOU identify? How many
Joyce Hattos WERE identified without non-blind A-B comparisons
with the originals?

How many Youtube live performances can you identify
just listening?


I could identify a few. But that isn't the point. No one is being
challenged to identify artists blind. They are being offered an
oportunity to evaluate different performances of the same piece blind.
This is how musicians are now evaluated when they audition for
orchestras. It can be very revealing to listen to these things under
blind conditions. If one could easily identify the artists under blind
conditions then the test really is no longer blind. I asked that if
anyone recognize a given performance and can identify the artist that
they keep it to themselves so as to keep the comparisons blind for the
other people on the forum. I'm thinking of doing a second comparison
now that it looks like the first one has taken off over at the Steve
Hoffman forum.

I wanted to do these comparisons because I believe that in classical
music that reputation carries far more sway than is deserved with many
fans of the genre. Take away the identity and the performance has to
stand on it's own merits.

In these kinds of comparisons I don't think tone is much of a give
away. Certainly not for piano. I think tone is far more a function of
the instrument, the hall and the recording. The musician has far more
control over other aspects of the sound than tone. If you recognize a
particular artist it is far more likely because of the interpretation
and the execution of that interpretation than the tone per se. Tone
will be far more recognizable with musicians playing string and reed
instruments than piano.
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Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 16:39:21 -0800, Doug McDonald wrote
(in article ):

On 2/15/2012 10:56 AM, Jenn wrote:
In ,
Doug wrote:

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?


Sure, in many cases. Many performers approach certain challenges in the
literature in predictable ways, and some tonal qualities are quite
unique.

Sure ... how many Joyce Hattos can YOU identify? How many
Joyce Hattos WERE identified without non-blind A-B comparisons
with the originals?

How many Youtube live performances can you identify
just listening?


Doug McDonald


I can tell Rubenstein from Horowitz on the piano, but that's about the size
of it. OTOH, I can distinguish many different composers from their style,
even if the work is unfamiliar to me. For instance Beethoven sounds like no
one else. Sibelius is unique as is Vaughn Williams, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, and
Debussy. I can do this with perhaps 20 major composers (and all of the major
film composers). But performers are harder. At one time I was pretty good at
picking-out a performance by Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra
because Ormandy whipped that group into an unmistakeable "sound". But he's
been gone for several generations, and whatever it was that he brought to the
Philadelphians is long gone with him.
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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

In article ,
Doug McDonald wrote:

On 2/15/2012 10:56 AM, Jenn wrote:
In ,
Doug wrote:

That said, telling a performer blind is almost impossible,
except in rare cases where you recognize the exact
performance. A well-listened person can tell, using
violinists, can tell Elman (who recorded well into the
hi-fi era) from Heifetz or any of a huge number of
modern virtuosi. But can they tell Heifetz from any of those
modern folks ... or the modern ones from each other?


Sure, in many cases. Many performers approach certain challenges in the
literature in predictable ways, and some tonal qualities are quite
unique.

Sure ... how many Joyce Hattos can YOU identify? How many
Joyce Hattos WERE identified without non-blind A-B comparisons
with the originals?

How many Youtube live performances can you identify
just listening?


Doug McDonald


Depends. If I'm played some performances of trombone music and am asked
to identify which is Friendman and which is Allesi, my accuracy rate
would be very high. Which Tchaikovsky concerto is Heifetz and which is
Perlman? No problem. Identify without comparison? I'd still do pretty
well. Some performers have easily identifiable traits.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

Scott,

You'll get much better results by spending some money. Find folks who are
somewhat knowledgeable about music. Music schools and univ. music depts are
full of such people so put up ads there. Offer $25/hr for their time. Have a
good playback system in a comfortable room. If it's a long trial schedule
break time.
A pleasant test and reasonable money will attract participants through
word of mouth. It should be easy to do this in a double-blind fashion, too.
You may be able to recoup some of your money by getting an article published
in an audio magazine.

Dave M.



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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Feb 21, 5:49=A0pm, "Dave M." wrote:
Scott,

=A0 =A0You'll get much better results by spending some money. Find folks =

who are
somewhat knowledgeable about music. Music schools and univ. music depts a=

re
full of such people so put up ads there. Offer $25/hr for their time. Hav=

e a
good playback system in a comfortable room. If it's a long trial schedule
break time.
=A0 =A0A pleasant test and reasonable money will attract participants thr=

ough
word of mouth. It should be easy to do this in a double-blind fashion, to=

o.
You may be able to recoup some of your money by getting an article publis=

hed
in an audio magazine.

Dave M.


Well I did it so the folks out there could try it, have some fun and
maybe learn a little about how they listen to classical music. Turns
out that after a slow reception the folks over at the Steve Hoffman
forum are really enjoying doing blind comparisons. If you or anyone
else wants to check it out here is a link.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...php?t=3D277315

I am thankful the moderators here let me start this thread. It is
really more about music than audio but I suppose the theme of blind
protocols makes it relevant. I have no interest in spending money on
it though. The time I spend putting the programs together for each
comparison is enough of a proverbial donation. But at the same time
putting those comparisons together is always an interesting process
and I end up learning something more about the music and the musicians
along the way.

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Jason[_14_] Jason[_14_] is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison


[snip] At one time I was pretty good at
picking-out a performance by Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra
because Ormandy whipped that group into an unmistakeable "sound". But he's
been gone for several generations, and whatever it was that he brought to the
Philadelphians is long gone with him.


Ormandy is recognizable because he generally reduced tempi compared to
others and coaxed a dreamy sound out of the orchestra. Their recording of
The Firebird - especially at the end - is so very different for -any-
other rendition I've ever heard. Beautiful, too!

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Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
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Default An unexpected reluctance to participate ina blind comparison

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:06:10 -0800, Jason wrote
(in article ):


[snip] At one time I was pretty good at
picking-out a performance by Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra
because Ormandy whipped that group into an unmistakeable "sound". But he's
been gone for several generations, and whatever it was that he brought to
the
Philadelphians is long gone with him.


Ormandy is recognizable because he generally reduced tempi compared to
others and coaxed a dreamy sound out of the orchestra. Their recording of
The Firebird - especially at the end - is so very different for -any-
other rendition I've ever heard. Beautiful, too!


While what you say is definitely true, he also coaxed a unique string sound
from the Philadelphians; one that was unmistakeable. While he and the
orchestra were good at most any classics, they were especially good - even
great at interpretations of late romantics and post romantic composers such
as Sibelius, (his 'Finlandia' with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is without
peer), as well as Debussy, Ravel, and Resphigi (his "Roman Trilogy" and
Church Windows is great). But he was also especially effective with
Tchiakovsky, and Rachmaninoff. Unfortunately, too many of his best
performances, such as the aforementioned choral 'Finlandia' remain
unavailable (as in never been released) on CD.
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