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#41
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"H Davis" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "H Davis" wrote in message Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. That's an assertion with very little evidence to support it. I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical discussions of this and have observed it for myself. Might you believe that your own observations possibly stopped well short of the sort of science that denies your claim? Might you believe that there are people who are not up-to-date in their understanding of how human hearing works, and therefore say some of the darnedest things? Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to wanting to turn the music off. That would be a straw man argument because I'm not talking about levels of distortion that are or are not immediately obvious. I'm talking about two things - the levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is predictable from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the ears and as perceived by the brain) works, and based on some of the most careful, sensitive listening tests ever done. This is generally due to such nonlinearities as crossover distortion in the output stage. Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it occurs it is not vanishlingly small. Small amounts can be due to an incorrectly set output stage bias trimmer, or even be inherent in the design. All sorts of things *can* happen. However, if our goal is to discuss modern technology as it exists today, then we are bound by what we see in the real world. Crossover distortion is generally at the vanishing level in modern power amps in good operating condition, even so-called "PA amps". It need not be obviously visible on an oscilloscope to be objectionable in long-term listening. Again, you don't seem to understand the thoroughness and sensitivity of investigations that have been happening for the past several decades, and last week. For example, in the past 2 weeks I've done some careful measurements of a very expensive ( $6,000), a moderate-priced but very modern ( 1000 wpc @ 2 ohms, $500) and a cheap ( $200) but fairly conventional power amps using measurement equipment with residuals that are at least 100 dB down). One can see distortion that is 20-30 dB down on a scope, in comparison. There was no discernable crossover distortion in the technical tests any of the amps I tested. I even tested a well-beaten PA amp that had a number of clearly noticeable technical problems. probably due to abuse such as possibly a number of output devices were not passing current. It's biggest problem was inability to provide rated power in one channel, but neither channel showed any crossover distortion. |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Stephen McElroy" wrote in
message Another contribution to the decline of the High End might be the endless discussion of twenty-year-old controversies. Right Stephen. The cable controversy was settled by science well over 20 years ago, but that doesn't keep high end true believers from continuing to try to convince their fellow audiophiles that the earth is really tied into a giant pretzel. Pictures from space of a round earth notwithstanding. Of course, science is on their side - Einstein said that space is curved, right? ;-) |
#43
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... "H Davis" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "H Davis" wrote in message Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. That's an assertion with very little evidence to support it. I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical discussions of this and have observed it for myself. Might you believe that your own observations possibly stopped well short of the sort of science that denies your claim? If there is documented research that invalidates the theory of distortion-induced "listener fatigue," please post it here, or at least a link to it. Otherwise, science DOES NOT deny this claim. Might you believe that there are people who are not up-to-date in their understanding of how human hearing works, and therefore say some of the darnedest things? Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to wanting to turn the music off. That would be a straw man argument because I'm not talking about levels of distortion that are or are not immediately obvious. I'm talking about two things - the levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is predictable from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the ears and as perceived by the brain) works, and based on some of the most careful, sensitive listening tests ever done. The hearing capabilities of the human ear and brain vary greatly among individuals. If one person's hearing is 20 db down at 8 KHz, will a distortion product at that frequency be as audible or objectionable to them as to a person with unimpaired hearing? The impaired individual would I'm sure be more tolerant of distortion products in the range above their cutoff frequency. In general, the listener fatigue phenomenon is common sense - who wants to continue to hear distorted music? This is generally due to such nonlinearities as crossover distortion in the output stage. Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it occurs it is not vanishlingly small. Small amounts can be due to an incorrectly set output stage bias trimmer, or even be inherent in the design. All sorts of things *can* happen. However, if our goal is to discuss modern technology as it exists today, then we are bound by what we see in the real world. Crossover distortion is generally at the vanishing level in modern power amps in good operating condition, even so-called "PA amps". True. It need not be obviously visible on an oscilloscope to be objectionable in long-term listening. Again, you don't seem to understand the thoroughness and sensitivity of investigations that have been happening for the past several decades, and last week. For example, in the past 2 weeks I've done some careful measurements of a very expensive ( $6,000), a moderate-priced but very modern ( 1000 wpc @ 2 ohms, $500) and a cheap ( $200) but fairly conventional power amps using measurement equipment with residuals that are at least 100 dB down). One can see distortion that is 20-30 dB down on a scope, in comparison. There was no discernable crossover distortion in the technical tests any of the amps I tested. I even tested a well-beaten PA amp that had a number of clearly noticeable technical problems. probably due to abuse such as possibly a number of output devices were not passing current. It's biggest problem was inability to provide rated power in one channel, but neither channel showed any crossover distortion. Yes, crossover distortion in properly designed equipment should pose no problem. Have you any recently discovered information on transient intermodulation distortion? |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"H Davis" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "H Davis" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "H Davis" wrote in message Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not immediately audible, but eventually cause listener fatigue. That's an assertion with very little evidence to support it. I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical discussions of this and have observed it for myself. Might you believe that your own observations possibly stopped well short of the sort of science that denies your claim? If there is documented research that invalidates the theory of distortion-induced "listener fatigue," please post it here, or at least a link to it. Otherwise, science DOES NOT deny this claim. Listener fatigue is your theory, its up to you to support it. Show us the science! Might you believe that there are people who are not up-to-date in their understanding of how human hearing works, and therefore say some of the darnedest things? Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to wanting to turn the music off. That would be a straw man argument because I'm not talking about levels of distortion that are or are not immediately obvious. I'm talking about two things - the levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is predictable from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the ears and as perceived by the brain) works, and based on some of the most careful, sensitive listening tests ever done. The hearing capabilities of the human ear and brain vary greatly among individuals. The science says that hearing only goes so far. There are variations, but they are explainable by hearing damage and other disabilities. If one person's hearing is 20 db down at 8 KHz, will a distortion product at that frequency be as audible or objectionable to them as to a person with unimpaired hearing? The impaired individual would I'm sure be more tolerant of distortion products in the range above their cutoff frequency. In general, the listener fatigue phenomenon is common sense - who wants to continue to hear distorted music? Straw man argument, people who test these sorts of things know how to detect people with hearing damage and don't base their results on them. Yes, crossover distortion in properly designed equipment should pose no problem. Have you any recently discovered information on transient intermodulation distortion? TIM has long been debunked and is well-known to *not* be a of new or unusual kind of distortion. |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Aug 31, 8:46*am, Dick Pierce wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it alledgedly does, does he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? My understanding is that often yes, people continue to percieve improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obsene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Have you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation fo the law? I'd like to see some facts to support your assertions here. I think if you really did your homework on this one you would find you are way off base. And what if you were told that the wood cook stove you were about to plunk $250,000 for was inherently better because it was forged under a certain alignment of stars in the galactic center? That would not mean anything to me. It might mean something to someone else. At least it is a claim we can all judge and valuate for ourselves. It's only dishonest if it is a willful misrepresentation. What would your "quality of experience" be if you had paid thousands for that outboard DAC on the premise that "it was so transparent and revealing" that it could "clearly reveal the difference in sound between cables" only to discover that, in fact, it suffered from grossly incompetent mixed signal design and circuit board layout and that, in fact, it was a jitter cesspool? If it made for a better listening experience I would favor it. If not then I wouldn't. |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Scott" wrote in message
On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals. |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject? Or should we just ask JJ? My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless. *That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here? Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not. If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor, shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and selling something. Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline conditioners. I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. *Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that is quite different than calling something grotesquely overpriced. Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real world product here. |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:03:33 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ): On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Scott" wrote in message On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject? Or should we just ask JJ? My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless. *That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here? Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not. If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor, shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and selling something. Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline conditioners. I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. *Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that is quite different than calling something grotesquely overpriced. Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real world product here. Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL, or, if one prefers an integrated like the Leben, for around $3000, one can get the gorgeously made and great sounding and fabulous looking 100 Watt/Channel Cayin A-100T from China. Either of these two tube amps come in at a price much more in keeping with their actual cost to produce than does the Leben. I'm only mentioning these two units to compare oranges to oranges, that is to say, tubes to tubes. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. This is clean, reliable power. but companies like Peavy, and Samson et al also sell robust and clean amps for nowhere near the kind of money that companies like Leben and Luxman want for their flea-powerd options. Things get even more ridiculous when you get into SETs. Now I'm not knocking any of these products. What I am saying is that there is simply no practical economic reason for these low-powered amps to cost as much as they do. |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 2, 5:07*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:03:33 -0700, Scott wrote (in article ): On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Scott" wrote in message On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject? Or should we just ask JJ? My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless. *That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here? Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not. If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor, shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and selling something. Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline conditioners. I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. *Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that is quite different than calling something grotesquely overpriced. Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real world product here. Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what *it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL, or, if one prefers an integrated like the Leben, for around $3000, one can get the gorgeously made and great sounding and fabulous looking 100 Watt/Channel Cayin A-100T from China. Either of these two tube amps come in at a price much more in keeping with their actual cost to produce than does the Leben. I'm only mentioning these two units to compare oranges to oranges, that is to say, tubes to tubes. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. This is clean, reliable power. but companies like Peavy, and Samson et al also sell robust and clean amps for nowhere near the kind of money that companies like Leben and Luxman want for their flea-powerd options. Things get even more ridiculous when you get into SETs. Now I'm not knocking any of these products. What I am saying is that there is simply no practical economic reason for these low-powered amps to cost as much as they do. *- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't know much about the Leben but I do know a little about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. I'm not making any sort of comment on their value but there is no question that given their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to be very high. It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth it. but seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid silver transformers, solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place an order. I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably cheaper. but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Try shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan to the U.S. then consider that you have brokers, and distributers taking their cut before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Hand built artisan products simply can't be done cheap, especially when they are imports and weigh half a ton. |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, As if that were something that only affects me. but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier" More than 15wpc, less than $500. Or: "YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc. These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts. When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc. Crown's Xti 2000 can be had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Scott" wrote in message
On Sep 2, 5:26 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Scott" wrote in message On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. How so? Due to the vague nature of the question, its hard to answer. Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject? I need a relevant, meaningful question to answer. Or should we just ask JJ? I think JJ swore off of Usenet. I'm in touch with him regularly, but he's pretty busy these days. My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless. There you go. That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. That's news to me. It's up to you to inform yourself. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here? Yes. Not that it matters. Begging the question, why bother to answer your posts? Improved quality of experience is improved quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Ah yes, the solipsist's defense - "It's better because I say it is". Whether or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not. Sure it does. If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless. Again, begging the question, why bother to answer your posts? And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor, shipping and duties? Asked and answered, just below. Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs of making the product. In most of the real world, its all about costs and benefits. Benefits matter. Costs are usually subordinate to benefits. If you disagree I suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and selling something. I've personally been in the business of making and selling something for over 20 years. I can't sell less benefits for more money. Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline conditioners. ?????????????/ I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. *Value* is largely subjective. To a point. But it is hard to call any product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs that go into it. No, it's very easy. The phrase "solid gold toilet brush" comes to mind. Not much of a market for them. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that is quite different than calling something grotesquely overpriced. I think it may be fair to note that some high end audio gear is like a "solid gold toilet brush" Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real world product here. Good luck on doing your own research. First, you might want to familiarize yourself as to what the FTC rules for consumer power amplifiers are... |
#52
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:14:22 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ): [quoted text deleted -- deb] I don't know much about the Leben but I do know a little about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. I'm not making any sort of comment on their value but there is no question that given their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to be very high. It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth it. but seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid silver transformers, solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place an order. I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably cheaper. but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Try shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan to the U.S. then consider that you have brokers, and distributers taking their cut before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Hand built artisan products simply can't be done cheap, especially when they are imports and weigh half a ton. Well, yes, the Wavac and Audio Note amps are a special case. I've never had a Wavac to play with, but I have had a pair of Audio Note amps for a weekend. They are beautifully built, and as you say the transformers are wound with silver wire as is all the point-to-point wiring silver. It uses oil-filled capacitors and the tubes are expensive. But other than the widely known fact that silver is a better conductor of electricity than is copper, no one has ever shown me any PRACTICAL advantage to a transformer wound with silver instead of copper wire! And making chassis out of a solid billet of alumimum may be aesthetically impressive, but what does it add to the performance of the amp? There are places where machining things out of solid billets of metal yields an advantage (like when Ferrari, for instance, machines a crankshaft from a solid billet of very hard steel, it yields a stronger crank than one which is cast into a crankshaft shape and then machined, which is the normal practice), but there is no such advantage to machining a chassis for an amplifier that way. It's like taking an old Heathkit Williamson amplifier and putting a solid gold faceplate on it. That will certainly make the amp very expensive both to produce and to buy, but it adds no actual VALUE to the Heathkit as an AMPLIFIER. And that's my point. |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, As if that were something that only affects me. Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking advice from them. but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier" More than 15wpc, less than $500. Or: "YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc. These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts. Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are bargains. Amps like either of them - in the mid sixties would have cost $200 and $300 respectively and if we use the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should cost $2400 and $3600 respectively. Their actual selling princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it! When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc. I use one of those myself in the summer and usually switch back to the VTL 140's when the weather cools (would you want TWELVE 807's running in your living room on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and certainly has enough power. It seems well designed physically, anyway, as it barely gets warm - even on fairly hot days. BUT, I understand that the quality contol on Behringer amps is atrocious. I had to go through two of them before I found one that worked correctly. The first one buzzed through the speakers and the second one had a great deal of distortion on the right channel if one cranked it above a whisper. Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away, dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third summer with it. Crown's Xti 2000 can be had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling". |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Scott" wrote in message
I don't know much about the Leben Which curiously enough is the topic of most of the discussion here. but I do know a little about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. Note the hidden change of topic. I'm not making any sort of comment on their value So your claim that value-wise they are whipping posts has nothing to do with value? but there is no question that given their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to be very high. Duties? Labor? Isn't it a level playing field - people can build amps wherever they want to and ship them wherever they need to? It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth it. A large number of consumers have made their decisions and they are staying away in droves. But seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid silver transformers, Which have no known sonic advantages. Since the goal of the Wavac seems to be to get the price as high as possible, why not gold windings? solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, Again, no known sonic advantages - just an appearance thing. some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc. Tube prices don't seem to be bad when you're talking about six-figure price tags. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place an order. I don't see any promise to do anything, just words. If I were to promise you to build a Wavac 833 based on that statement, I'd be a fool! I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably cheaper. No reliable evidence that the Chinese building competitive amps are getting 10 cents a day. Reality is that they are getting order(s) of magnitude more pay than you have claimed. but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Wavac amps are overbuilt, if sound quality is of the essence. Try shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan Not cheap, but no justification for a six-figure price tag in just that. to the U.S. then consider that you have brokers, Who charge less if the equipment costs less. and distributers taking their cut Probably at exhorbitant rates. before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Who no doubt gets an exhorbitant markup as well. Hand built artisan products simply can't be done cheap, I routinely pay less than $5 a loaf for artisan bread... especially when they are imports Depending on country of origin there may be no duties at all. and weigh half a ton. I thought the Wavac weighed about 1/20th of a ton. Are you really off by a factor of 10 from even your earlier statement? |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, As if that were something that only affects me. Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking advice from them. There's a complete lack of modern perspective here. Tubes and Vinyl are a bias away from the contemporary order of things. They are also the opposite of the true meaning of High Fidelity. but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier" More than 15wpc, less than $500. Or: "YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc. These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts. Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are bargains. Amps like either of them - in the mid sixties would have cost $200 and $300 respectively In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran about $100-129. I seem to recall the kit was about $80. and if we use the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should cost $2400 and $3600 respectively. That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated dollars. Probably not too far off. Their actual selling princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it! Could be. These days just about everything is assembled in China, no matter where the alleged manufacturer's headquarters are. When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc. I use one of those myself in the summer and usually switch back to the VTL 140's when the weather cools (would you want TWELVE 807's running in your living room on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and certainly has enough power. It seems well designed physically, anyway, as it barely gets warm - even on fairly hot days. BUT, I understand that the quality contol on Behringer amps is atrocious. I have a few and I have several friends who have a number of them. No problems. I had to go through two of them before I found one that worked correctly. Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers who cycles his customer returns through several customers before he gets down to business and sends it back for seviceing. The first one buzzed through the speakers and the second one had a great deal of distortion on the right channel if one cranked it above a whisper. Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away, dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third summer with it. These bad amps came directly from Behringer? Crown's Xti 2000 can be had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling". Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power testing to get the fans to run perceptibly. |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:26:22 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, As if that were something that only affects me. Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking advice from them. There's a complete lack of modern perspective here. Tubes and Vinyl are a bias away from the contemporary order of things. They are also the opposite of the true meaning of High Fidelity. And that's your bias. Mine is that tube amps are another way of creating the power required to drive speakers and are categorically speaking, neither good nor bad. I.E. there are good ones and there are not so good ones. Vinyl is another music source and again some are very, very good, and some are awful. The best sound more like real music than the best digital, but the average digital is better than MOST vinyl. but he is knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier" More than 15wpc, less than $500. Or: "YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc. These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts. Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are bargains. Amps like either of them - in the mid sixties would have cost $200 and $300 respectively In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran about $100-129. I seem to recall the kit was about $80. Yes, but it was only 35 Watts/channel while the larger of these amplifiers is quite a bit bigger - say, on par with a pair of Dyna MKII or MKIIIs? and if we use the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should cost $2400 and $3600 respectively. That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated dollars. Probably not too far off. That's correct. When some company bought the Dyna name back in the mid '90's, they reissued the the Stereo 70 at right about $1100. Their actual selling princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it! Could be. These days just about everything is assembled in China, no matter where the alleged manufacturer's headquarters are. True. One thing about the Yaqin amps you referenced is that their Canadian importer QC's each, on premises, before they are sent out to customers. In my estimation, Behringer should do the same. It would cost them less in the long run, I believe. When you consider that for about US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben. Now if we go solid state, there are many current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc. I use one of those myself in the summer and usually switch back to the VTL 140's when the weather cools (would you want TWELVE 807's running in your living room on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and certainly has enough power. It seems well designed physically, anyway, as it barely gets warm - even on fairly hot days. BUT, I understand that the quality contol on Behringer amps is atrocious. I have a few and I have several friends who have a number of them. No problems. I had to go through two of them before I found one that worked correctly. Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers who cycles his customer returns through several customers before he gets down to business and sends it back for seviceing. These came directly from Behringer. No middle man. The first one buzzed through the speakers and the second one had a great deal of distortion on the right channel if one cranked it above a whisper. Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away, dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third summer with it. These bad amps came directly from Behringer? Yep. Crown's Xti 2000 can be had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling". Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power testing to get the fans to run perceptibly. I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built. |
#57
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 3, 5:53*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message I don't know much about the Leben Which curiously enough is the topic of most of the discussion here. but I do know a little about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. Note the hidden change of topic. Hidden change of topic? Dick made a comment about grotesquely overpriced Asian products and I responded to that. If you feel Dick has somehow wrongly changed the subject then take it up with Dick or the moderators. *I'm not making any sort of comment on their *value So your claim that value-wise they are whipping posts has nothing to do with value? No. I am simply challenging Dick's assertion about "grotesque overpricing." I have already explained the difference between fair pricing of a product and the subjective concept of value. *but there is no question that given their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to be very high. Duties? "In economics, a duty is a kind of tax, often associated with customs, a payment due to the revenue of a state, levied by force of law. It is a tax on certain items purchased abroad. [1]Properly, a duty differs from a tax in being levied on specific commodities, financial transactions, estates, etc., " wikipedia. Labor? That is the manual work done to make the product. It costs money. Isn't it a level playing field - people can build amps wherever they want to and ship them wherever they need to? They can. That does not eliminate the costs I have cited. *It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth it. A large number of consumers have made their decisions and they are staying away in droves. It seems enough have decided to buy to keep Wavac, Audionote and other makers of SETs in business. So what? But seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid silver transformers, Which have no known sonic advantages. Since the goal of the Wavac seems to be to get the price as high as possible, why not gold windings? Who are you to speak of the intentions of Yuzuro Ito? has he personally called you to give you this inside information? *solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, Again, no known sonic advantages - just an appearance thing. some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc. Tube prices don't seem to be bad when you're talking about six-figure price tags. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place an order. I don't see any promise to do anything, just words. If I were to promise you to build a Wavac 833 based on that statement, I'd be a fool! I would think someone who has been making and selling stuff for as long as you claim would understand how these things work. Commissioning someone to build something isn't rocket science. I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably cheaper. No reliable evidence that the Chinese building competitive amps are getting 10 cents a day. Reality is that they are getting order(s) of magnitude more pay than you have claimed. you know this how? but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Wavac amps are overbuilt, if sound quality is of the essence. Some people may like overbuilt. There is lies the value factor. But the Wavacs price is a reflection of their build and materials. They are expensive because they cost a lot to build and import. Try shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan Not cheap, but no justification for a six-figure price tag in just that. It's just one factor. *to the *U.S. then consider that you have brokers, Who charge less if the equipment costs less. But clearly a product like Wavac can't cost less becuae of what goes into it. so the mark ups go up proportionally. and distributers taking their cut Probably at exhorbitant rates. Probably not. *before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Who no doubt gets an exhorbitant markup as well. I'll bet they get a smaller percentage markup than most audio products. Hand built artisan products simply can't be done cheap, I routinely pay less than $5 a loaf for artisan bread... If you can't tell the difference between a loaf of bread and a Wavac amp..... especially when they are imports Depending on country of origin there may be no duties at all. and weigh half a ton. I thought the Wavac weighed about 1/20th of a ton. *Are you really off by a factor of 10 from even your earlier statement? Depends on the Wavac. The SH -833 with the power supplies actually is about a half a ton. |
#58
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 3, 7:15*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message On Sep 2, 5:26 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Scott" wrote in message On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of experience" because it really does align the electrons? And because it allegedly does, he deserve the outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely, happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price being the reason for the "quality of experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when we see the emperor in the altogether? That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias controlled conditions? Depends on the nature of the bias. How so? Due to the vague nature of the question, its hard to answer. You are the one who made the claim. I only asked you to explain it. Does that mean your own claim is too vague for you to explain? *Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject? I need a relevant, meaningful question to answer. I asked you if you have any meaningful information on bias effects that continue to be in play even after the bias has been exposed by bias controlled tests. You had a meraningful question. I'm going to guess that you simply have nothing to offer ont he subject. Fair enough. I'll run it by JJ. I'm sure he knows a good deal about that sort of thing. *Or should we just ask JJ? I think JJ swore off of Usenet. I'm in touch with him regularly, but he's pretty busy these days. he's great about answering these kinds of questions. My understanding is that often yes, people continue to perceive improvements that are purely bias related perceptions. Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here. No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless. There you go. OK ww agree. Vague because I don't have hard numbers but not meaningless. That would be a continued improvement in the quality of experience. The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an improvement. That's news to me. It's up to you to inform yourself. Do tell us your source for factual information about the "mass experience of audiophiles." I think you are just making it up. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here? Yes. I think you are mistaken as so many are when their biases are in play. No big deal though. Not that it matters. Begging the question, why bother to answer your posts? you gotta ask yourself that question in private Arny. No one is forcing you to respond. Improved quality of experience is improved quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Ah yes, the solipsist's defense - "It's better because I say it is". Yep. either one takes such a position in audio as a hobbyist or one has to form a posse to feel better about their own perceptions. I just don't need that crutch. When I sit and listen to music the only one who needs to be pleased is me. Whether or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not. Sure it does. How so? If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all that will improve things. Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless. Again, begging the question, why bother to answer your posts? That is a question for you to answer for yourself Arny. And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?" Dollars per watt of clean power. What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor, shipping and duties? Asked and answered, just below. Not really. but i can answer it. It has nothing to do with real world costs. Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs of making the product. In most of the real world, its all about costs and benefits. Benefits matter. Costs are usually subordinate to benefits. In audio it's about costs and percieved benefits. Clearly some people percieve a benefit that is worth the cost. Otherwise we would be talking about these products because they wouldn't exist. If you disagree I suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and selling something. I've personally been in the business of making and selling something for over 20 years. I can't sell less benefits for more money. Are you selling things for less than they cost you to make? Often the ratio is near-infinite because these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be clean by modern standards. Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline conditioners. ?????????????/ Never heard of powerline conditions used to clean the power? I've you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value received. *Value* is largely subjective. To a point. No. What makes a Picasso worth millions? It is the subjective evaluation of value. *But it is hard to call any product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs that go into it. No, it's very easy. The phrase "solid gold toilet brush" comes to mind. Not much of a market for them. But there seems to be a market for very expensive SETs. But that is neither here nor there. If one were to make a solid gold toilet brush one would have to charge according to the cost of materials. So an expensive solid gold toilet brush would not actually be "grotesquely overpriced" even if it is several orders of magnitude more expensive than a common plastic toilet brush. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that is quite different than calling something grotesquely overpriced. I think it may be fair to note that some high end audio gear is like a "solid gold toilet brush" Except there is a market for the gear. Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and which ones are in violation of the law? The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real world product here. Good luck on doing your own research. First, you might want to familiarize yourself as to what the FTC rules for consumer power amplifiers are IOW you got nothing. Thought so. |
#59
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 4, 7:50*am, Dick Pierce wrote:
It should also be noted that I have been hired as an expert witness in several legal cases where, among other things, the issue of the relationship between direct and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a significant part of the litigation. In at least one of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative data I provided played a crucial role in determining the outcome. We all know of litigation against fast food outlets for making people become obese, but can we also sue for having paid too much for audio equipment? |
#60
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. Hmm it's around 600 UK pounds here - typical rip-off Britain methinks! The XTI 1000 is around 400 UK pounds however. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling". Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power testing to get the fans to run perceptibly. I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built. I wonder how the Behringer EP series of amps fares by comparison? Again these are primarily designed for live/disco PA work but I've seen articles where people are using them for surround cinema speakers. The EP2000 is just over 200 UK pounds and the EP2500 is about 240. The 2500 seems to be well regarded and doesn't seem to suffer, from what I can tell from blogs and articles, from the poor QC of the A500. --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
#61
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
On Sep 4, 5:50*am, Dick Pierce wrote:
For those of you that have any memory, you will recall that I have specnt a major portion of my professional life in the employ or as a consultant to a wide variety of high fidelity companies over the last 35 years or so. And those same people with the functional memory will also recall that, among other things, contractual obligations prevent me from publishing a list of who those clients were. With that as background, Scott wrote: On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote: And the same is true of badly designed CD players with 'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law because they can't even meet their own published specifications? How does the obsene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and manufacturer? How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east * are "overpriced?" Because it was and is my job to work with manufacturers of audio equipment (mainly but far from exclusively loudspeakers). I thus am quite familiar with the pricing structure that leads to retail pricing decisions. That is a lovely argument by authority. Somehow I doubt that you have actually consulted on exotic SETs coming from Japan. feel free to correct me if I am wrong about that. So if you are quite familiar with pricing structure that leads to retail pricing decisions you could easily point to a specific product that you can talk about without violating any of your contracts, Apply that knowledge and demonstrate that your assertion about grotesque overpricing was warrented. It should also be noted that I have been hired as an expert witness in several legal cases where, among other things, the issue of the relationship between direct and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a significant part of the litigation. In at least one of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative data I provided played a crucial role in determining the outcome. Have you actually done the math? Yes, hundreds of times, as a crucial part of my role as a technical and management consultant for audio companies. Have you? yeah. I did the math on the costs of building a knock off of the Wavac 833. It was a pretty substantial percentage of the actual retail price. And that is with a product that weighs about 250 lbs., has to be shipped from Japan and has to go through the markups of a distributor and then a dealer. So unless you can cite actual product that you are refering to (maybe you aren't talking about products from the usual whipping posts like Wavac and Audio Note) I'd have to say you are making an unfounded assertion that runs contrary to the facts that I am aware of in regards to the actual costs of making amps such as the high priced SETs offered by Wavac and Audio Note. Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of * construction along with the costs of shipping and duties? Yes, hundreds of times, as a crucial part of my role as a technical and management consultant for audio companies. Have you? yeah. Maybe we are not talking about the same products. I ahve been specific about the sort of products I thought you were refering to. Don't know how to go from there if you chose to remain so vague that we have nothing to evaluate. * I think if you really did your homework on this one you would find you are way off base. For someone who is always demanding "facts," sire, you seem to be quite eager to jump to a comclusion. That doesn't even make sense Dick. All I am saying is what i do know runs contrary to your overly broad assertion. If you don't want to back your assertion with facts that is not my problem. Indeed, I have done my homweork, and I have been doing any number of manufacturers homework for over a third of a century. On what "facts' do you base your conclusion that I am "way of base here?" I'd like to see some facts to support your assertion here, Scott. Shall we start with the cost of silver for the transformers? Maybe we can talk about the cost of the chasis milled from solid stock? Costs of custom machined tube sockets? We can break it down if you like. But heck, you've already done this hundreds of times. Certainly you can tell us the costs of parts and labor for something like the Wavac 833. so we can take that number, look at shipping and then we can use your vast knowledge costs to price ratios and figure out if it is grotesquely over priced. What is a fair price ratio of a product that is imported from Japan and has a U.S. distributor and local dealers? I remember Bill Johnson saying that his products were usually priced around five times the costs of materials. But his is a domestic product that only requires domestic shipping and no distributor. So what is a fair ratio for an import like the Wavac? A product made in very limited runs by a small artisan business? 10 to 1? 8 to 1? what is a reasonable margin for a small business like Wavac? I'd think 10% to 20% would be quite reasonable. Feel free to step in and correct any of my numbers here if you think they are way off. |
#62
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Sonnova" wrote in message
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:26:22 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, As if that were something that only affects me. Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking advice from them. There's a complete lack of modern perspective here. Tubes and Vinyl are a bias away from the contemporary order of things. They are also the opposite of the true meaning of High Fidelity. And that's your bias. Prove me wrong on either issue. Its not bias, its how the mainstream world is. Mine is that tube amps are another way of creating the power required to drive speakers and are categorically speaking, neither good nor bad. I.E. there are good ones and there are not so good ones. I agree with that. My serious argument against tubes is that they are expensive and impractical ways to obtain clean power. Vinyl is another music source and again some are very, very good, and some are awful. The best sound more like real music than the best digital, but the average digital is better than MOST vinyl. That is a fallacy, pure and simple. A tiny noisy minority thinks and talks like that, but it doesn't make it so. In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran about $100-129. I seem to recall the kit was about $80. Yes, but it was only 35 Watts/channel while the larger of these amplifiers is quite a bit bigger - say, on par with a pair of Dyna MKII or MKIIIs? According to the online 1964 Radio Shack catalog, Mark IIIs were $ 80 each. and if we use the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should cost $2400 and $3600 respectively. That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated dollars. Probably not too far off. That's correct. When some company bought the Dyna name back in the mid '90's, they reissued the the Stereo 70 at right about $1100. I remember the event. I'll accept your detail about the price. Their actual selling princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it! Could be. These days just about everything is assembled in China, no matter where the alleged manufacturer's headquarters are. True. One thing about the Yaqin amps you referenced is that their Canadian importer QC's each, on premises, before they are sent out to customers. In my estimation, Behringer should do the same. It would cost them less in the long run, I believe. IME, you have had far worse than average experience with Behringer. I have a fair amount of it, and it all worked when unboxed. It kept on working, too. BUT, I understand that the quality contol on Behringer amps is atrocious. I have a few and I have several friends who have a number of them. No problems. I had to go through two of them before I found one that worked correctly. Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers who cycles his customer returns through several customers before he gets down to business and sends it back for seviceing. These came directly from Behringer. No middle man. Thanks for confirming that - ouch! The first one buzzed through the speakers and the second one had a great deal of distortion on the right channel if one cranked it above a whisper. Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away, dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third summer with it. These bad amps came directly from Behringer? Yep. Maybe they picked up some bad habits from one of their largest retailers - Guitar Center. Crown's Xti 2000 can be had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms. The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all the same size and weight. I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling". Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power testing to get the fans to run perceptibly. I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built. Well, they will probably take the drop test with more grace than any tubed unit ever could. I say this with far more experience with ruggedized tube equipment than most. ;-) |
#63
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
Norman Schwartz wrote:
On Sep 4, 7:50 am, Dick Pierce wrote: It should also be noted that I have been hired as an expert witness in several legal cases where, among other things, the issue of the relationship between direct and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a significant part of the litigation. In at least one of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative data I provided played a crucial role in determining the outcome. We all know of litigation against fast food outlets for making people become obese, but can we also sue for having paid too much for audio equipment? , Don't know if it's the situation in Dick's case, but contracts with CMO's (contract manufacturing organizations) are often written on a "cost of goods +" basis, e.g., COG + 15%. The CMO is obligated to track materials and direct labor costs to determine COG and the subsequent sales price. Sometimes the CMO is...less than rigorous...in COG calculations, and litigation results at times. Not unheard of in the pharma world, but I'm not sure how common it is in the audio world. I imagine Dick has a better idea. Keith Hughes |
#64
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I Think I Know Why the High-End Audio Hobby is Dying
"Rob Tweed" wrote in message
I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built. I wonder how the Behringer EP series of amps fares by comparison? For openers, the Behringer amps are dumb and in no intelligence - no DSP. You have to buy their $300 electronic crossover to compete. The EP 2500 is no longer on their web site as being for sale in the US. The EP4000 that apparently replaces the 2500 appears to be a very similar amp, but with higher power ratings obtained under looser operating conditions. When I get back to testing power amps, I will be able to compare an XTi 2000 to an EP 2500 as they are both acessible to me. I recently updated the power lines to my work shop to 120-0-120 volts @ 30 amps or if you will 240 volts @ 30 amps for the purpose. Many modern power amps can't be run at full output without blowing 15 amp circuit breakers. BTW Behringer has some new switchmode power amps on their web site, but they still need an outboard signal processor. |
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