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mrgou[_2_] mrgou[_2_] is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

Thanks in advance.

Raph
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Kalman Rubinson[_3_] Kalman Rubinson[_3_] is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:29:29 -0800 (PST), mrgou
wrote:

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?


More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

Kal

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

"mrgou" wrote in message

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very
thick platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI.
I'm really wondering what the advantage of such platters
is, what difference it makes. I noticed that a single
platter can cost up to 2,000$. What makes them so
expensive?


Perceived value.

I've been trying to collect actual performance measurements on LP playback
systems. While I don't have enough data to claim a definitive result, it
appears that sound quality (if accuracy is desired) goes down once the
TT=arm+cart $600. The more expensive cartrdiges in particular seem to have
a broad, gentle roll-off and perhaps more low-order nonlinear distortion.


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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters



mrgou wrote:

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?


Marketing hype mostly @ that price.

The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and flutter. The
one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds IIRC and the wight is mainly at
the outer edge where it helps best.

However modern drive motors should need such help. The 401 merely had a
synchronous motor, not a crystal locked servo one like a modern
turntable should have.

Graham

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?


More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.


NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.

Of course such problems are no longer present with digital media.

Graham



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[email protected] montre666@att.net is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

Eeyore wrote:

mrgou wrote:

Hi,

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?


Marketing hype mostly @ that price.

The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and flutter. The
one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds IIRC and the wight is mainly at
the outer edge where it helps best.

However modern drive motors should need such help. The 401 merely had a
synchronous motor, not a crystal locked servo one like a modern
turntable should have.


The wow caused by off center holes in almost ALL LP's dwarfs that
caused by decent turntables themselves.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

wrote in message

Eeyore wrote:

mrgou wrote:


I recently came across high-end turntables featuring
very thick platters, such as the Scout or Aries series
by VPI. I'm really wondering what the advantage of such
platters is, what difference it makes. I noticed that a
single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What makes them
so expensive?


Marketing hype mostly @ that price.


The mass of a 'thick turntable' helps smooth out wow and
flutter. The one on my Garrard 401 weighs 6-7 poubds
IIRC and the wight is mainly at the outer edge where it
helps best.


The Garrard 401 needed that kind of mass and perhaps more, because it used
a massive induction motor and an idler-wheel drive.

However modern drive motors should need such help. The
401 merely had a synchronous motor, not a crystal locked
servo one like a modern turntable should have.


The wow caused by off center holes in almost ALL LP's
dwarfs that caused by decent turntables themselves.


Agreed. Excellent observation!


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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:24:21 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?


More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.


NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.


Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.

Of course such problems are no longer present with digital media.


Granted.

Kal
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.


NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.


Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.


Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
'drift' from accuracy. I recall you could adjust the speed on the 401 so the
strobe light held the markers absolutely static and go back 10 mins later and
it could have drifted either way. That's stability and is not helped by large
platters.

Graham



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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:44:59 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.


Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.


Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
'drift' from accuracy.


I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
unaffected.

I recall you could adjust the speed on the 401 so the
strobe light held the markers absolutely static and go back 10 mins later and
it could have drifted either way. That's stability and is not helped by large
platters.


Perhaps we should talk about short-term and long-term
accuracy? ;-)

Kal
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Default Turntables with "thick" platters



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.

Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.


Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
'drift' from accuracy.


I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
unaffected.


You misread me. Try adding a comma after flutter but one is not supposed to do
that before an and or but.

Graham

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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:03:45 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



Kalman Rubinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
mrgou wrote:

I recently came across high-end turntables featuring very thick
platters, such as the Scout or Aries series by VPI. I'm really
wondering what the advantage of such platters is, what difference it
makes. I noticed that a single platter can cost up to 2,000$. What
makes them so expensive?

More weight, particularly at the perimenter, increases their angular
momentum. Supposedly, it increases speed stability.

NOT speed stability, that's entirely down to the motor but to smooth out
flutter especially and to a lesser extent wow.

Speed stability as flutter/wow are speed variations. Speed
accuracy is the responsibility of the motor.

Stability is to me a long term matter, not wow and flutter and is merely
'drift' from accuracy.


I wouldn't call flutter/wow drift since the average speed is
unaffected.


You misread me. Try adding a comma after flutter but one is not supposed to do
that before an and or but.


OK. Still a matter of semantics. Any stray from absolute perfection
is a problem. If that error is cyclic and the average speed over time
remains correct, I would not call that a drift. OTOH, if there is a
progressive deviation away from the correct, such that the long-term
average is no longer correct, that seems to me to be appropriately
called drift. I invite you to define these, too.

Kal


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Default Turntables with "thick" platters

In article , () wrote:
If you mean versus the plastic frisbees you
get on cheap things, you also have to consider
resonance dampening. You can find spindle clamps
to make even better contact with the turntable
platter/mat. Used to.

http://40th.com/gfx/audio_hw/pioneer_pl600_1979.html

is an example of a heavy platter. Well, it's
not that heavy, being aluminum, but it's 2 lbs
heavier than plastic ones.

There is also the flywheel effect. Contrary
to what some may think, hall-effect motors
don't "run" 100%, so the more mass the merrier.
And if you can build it this way, why not.
30 years old and it still operates fine.


My old AR was supposed to slip a bit so the motor would not lock up.
I think my old Thorens had a slip clutch.
You used talcum on the belt. Heavy paltters must have a medium in between
the record and platter so the vibrations are fed through and dissapated. Having
the wrong medium can cause a build up of record vibration and record clamps can
also help damp the vibrations. Vacuum clamping is supperior. Records are too light to get
good coupling. I should say clamping WILL reduce record vibrations. DJ's want a low mass platter
and direct drive so the records starts very quickly, but slip mats are still used.

greg

 
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