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George M. Middius[_4_] George M. Middius[_4_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell



The Idiot yapped idiotically:

Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


I read it as a lament. Too bad you're an idiot and so can't understand
simple statements. Or maybe it's your all-consuming fear of Mistress Jenn
and her Whip Of Righteousness that makes you act like this.

Regardless, you're an idiot. Have fun dancing with your uncounted fears
until your dying days, Witless.


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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.

If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more
than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


Critical? I thought you liked to be snooty?


That's because you're wrong. Again.



If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.


You changed the question. I asked about teenagers. Fewer teenagers
drink grape soda than they did before. Think it through. The set of
people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape
soda. For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were
exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. That number is now less, as
people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them.

Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've
met who graduated from UofI.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:





"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."


Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?







*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of
those
problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD.

Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD
players I've heard.
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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 29 Aug, 16:57, Jenn wrote:


*I can listen through a few tics. *I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic


well put!!!
excellent


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?



If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.

ScottW-


LOL!!!

today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 29 Aug, 18:02, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."


Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?


*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those
problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


*You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?
*Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.

ScottW-


Huh????

I thought you preferred your Arcam.
at your house you told me you didn't,
the online you said you purposely lied to me
and that you actually liked it.
Now you seem to be saying you don't like it.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell



Jenn said:

I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded
violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic.


Plastic is less likely to contain the defects and unevenness that occur
naturally in wood. Thank's Jenn for, admitting-Jennn that you invariably
preffer defects to perfection Jeenn.



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Chronic Philharmonic Chronic Philharmonic is offline
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Posts: 90
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell



"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic
wrote:


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:37:49 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote:
In rec.audio.tech DarkSide of Nightmix
wrote:
"Those old-fashioned analog platters (with the warm sound)
aren't back from the dead; they were never quite buried in
the first place..."

Business Week: http://atu.ca/6aecf

'warm sound' = euphonic distortion not present on the source tape.


IMNSHO 'warm sound' = muffled high frequencies. It's amazing when
audiophiles
can find cables so incredibly mediocre that they have difficulty
handling
frequencies about 5khz and give that lovely warm sound as one would
expect
from a worn out record being played with a worn out stylus. Such
progress,
and usually for only $100/ft! But, of course, we all know that
equalizers
are bad so it's off to the cable shop to find filters.


A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm
to
me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about
5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As
far
as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity
either. Accuracy, perhaps.


Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event
in
the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the
most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to
reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is
measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital
technology. Flame on...


No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to rationalize
when
CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300 CD
player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name...
warm!


Yeah, I had a lot invested in vinyl when CDs came out. But I always had a
love-hate relationship with vinyl. I knew how good it could sound, but it
rarely did. It took a lot of maintenance to keep it sounding good, and even
then the sound inevitably deteriorated. CDs were cheap, accurate and
repeatable. Hi-fi for the masses. I think that was the problem. Any old kid
on a skateboard could afford truly high fidelity without even caring or
appreciating the concept.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell



"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: "It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."

Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?



There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of
those
problems.

and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".

We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


If it sounds that way, it is because of the production quality, not because
of the technology. Digital audio is the closest thing we have to a straight
wire between the performance and your living room.




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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell



"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic
wrote:


[...]

A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm
to
me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about
5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As
far
as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity
either. Accuracy, perhaps.


Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event
in
the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the
most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to
reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is
measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital
technology. Flame on...


No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to rationalize
when
CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300 CD
player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name...
warm!


The other problem: My cat has taken to sleeping on the dust cover of my
expensive turntable. I play CDs now, because I can still get the CD drawer
open with the cat sitting there. So the vinyl format simply is not
cat-friendly.


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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Posts: 6,545
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 29 Aug, 22:07, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."


Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?


*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of
those
problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


*You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD.


All recordings or just some?



*Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD
players I've heard.


*All CD players make violins sound like plastic.
*I've never actually heard a plastic violin.
Where did you come to know what they sound like?

ScottW-


http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/MPV1.htm

even the seller admits it ain't the greatest sound.
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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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Posts: 1,243
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell


"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in message
news:5GLtk.1186$Ro1.265@trnddc04...


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:37:49 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote:
In rec.audio.tech DarkSide of Nightmix
wrote:
"Those old-fashioned analog platters (with the warm sound)
aren't back from the dead; they were never quite buried in
the first place..."


Business Week: http://atu.ca/6aecf


'warm sound' = euphonic distortion not present on the source tape.



IMNSHO 'warm sound' = muffled high frequencies. It's amazing when
audiophiles
can find cables so incredibly mediocre that they have difficulty handling
frequencies about 5khz and give that lovely warm sound as one would
expect
from a worn out record being played with a worn out stylus. Such
progress,
and usually for only $100/ft! But, of course, we all know that
equalizers
are bad so it's off to the cable shop to find filters.


A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm
to me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above
about 5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high
fidelity. As far as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with
high fidelity either. Accuracy, perhaps.

Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event
in the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO,
the most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way
to reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology
is measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital
technology. Flame on...


Yeah it really is. Too bad it doesn't sound as good....... :-)


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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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Posts: 1,243
Default ! Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell


"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in message
news:cy0uk.46$393.40@trnddc05...


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic
wrote:


[...]

A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm
to
me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above
about
5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As
far
as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity
either. Accuracy, perhaps.


Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event
in
the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the
most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to
reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology
is
measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital
technology. Flame on...


No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to
rationalize when
CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300
CD
player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name...
warm!


The other problem: My cat has taken to sleeping on the dust cover of my
expensive turntable. I play CDs now, because I can still get the CD drawer
open with the cat sitting there. So the vinyl format simply is not
cat-friendly.


LOL! How true!


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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Posts: 1,034
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."


Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?


*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an
LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the
homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they
play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what
are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even
in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of
those
problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws
of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics.
*I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


*You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD.


All recordings or just some?


All to a greater or lesser degree.



*Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD
players I've heard.


All CD players make violins sound like plastic.


To a greater or lesser degree in certain ranges of the instrument. I
hear a similar problem with female voice above about G on top of the
treble staff.

I've never actually heard a plastic violin.
Where did you come to know what they sound like?


I haven't. But I've heard plastic clarinets vs. wood clarinets, plastic
piccs vs. wood piccs, plastic recorders vs. wood recorders, etc.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

t
In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with
less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more
than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


That's because you're wrong. *Again.


You're snootier than you wish you were.
You just don't like to hear about it.


Oh I see.



If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.


You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers
drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through.


Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what
it tastes like....


Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right?

unless they're one of your students.


Why does anyone even bother to try with you?


*The set of
people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape
soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were
exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as
people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them.


I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency
of exposure
it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any
acoustic music
by the time they're age 12.


Did I say anything resembling that?



Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've
met who graduated from UofI.


Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any
qualification for judgement.


I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads.
You are one of them.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article ec0uk.34$Dj1.14@trnddc02,
"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: "It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."

Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.

As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".

Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?



There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,

Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of
those
problems.

and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.

Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws".

We've been through this before.

Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking
your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


If it sounds that way, it is because of the production quality, not because
of the technology. Digital audio is the closest thing we have to a straight
wire between the performance and your living room.


I've heard the effect on CD. I've not heard the effect on the best LPs.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
Clyde Slick wrote:

On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?



If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.

ScottW-


LOL!!!

today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. Please explain it to Scott.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
Clyde Slick wrote:

On 29 Aug, 16:57, Jenn wrote:


*I can listen through a few tics. *I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic


well put!!!
excellent


Thanks
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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On Aug 30, 1:53*am, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


That's because you're wrong. *Again.


You're snootier than you wish you were.
You just don't like to hear about it.


Oh I see.


How dare you argue with 2pid after he's passed judgement from his
Bungalow of Stupidity. Superman had his Fortress of Solitude. 2pid
bought it from him and remodeled it.

If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.


You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers
drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through.


Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what
it tastes like....


Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right?


Try explaining it to him slowly. Use vinyl LPs or tubes as an example.
Many teens don't know what they are, let alone hearing them.

unless they're one of your students.


Why does anyone even bother to try with you?


In my case because I enjoy shredding the poor, dumb *******?

*The set of
people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape
soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were
exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as
people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them.


I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency
of exposure
it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any
acoustic music
by the time they're age 12.


Did I say anything resembling that?


That doesn't matter.

Do you enjoy the "Family Circus" cartoons? LoL.

Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've
met who graduated from UofI.


Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any
qualification for judgement.


I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads. *
You are one of them.


That is a very small sample to base a claim that half of all
University of Illinois grads are imbeciles, Jenn. That would be like
you saying that 100% of the engineers you know from there are stupid.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On Aug 30, 1:56*am, Jenn wrote:
*Clyde Slick wrote:


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


You're trying to get Clyde into trouble, aren't you.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically
sounds like.


So Jenn, you think that all acoustic music sounds the
same,


Of course not, and you know that I didn't say that.

or is there any
variation from performance to performance?


Of course.


IOW, is the concept of "What acoustic music typically
sounds like" really a valid concept?


I guess my ears are still good enough so that I hear
variations among what acoustic music sounds like.
Therefore it can't possibly be a fixed reference for me.


As I already wrote and have written to you several times
before, there are ways that acoustic music in a
performance space NEVER sounds.


There are actually an infinite number of alternatives either way.

I've definitely been at live performances where the sound was so bad that I
sat there wishing for even a fairly modest stereo.

That's what to be avoided, IMO.


What needs to be avoided is all this posturing about vinyl and the sound of
live music - given all the clearly audible flaws in even the best vinyl
playback. Most of the people who rant on this way actually don't hear that
much live sound, anyway. It's just a cliché they picked up from their
favorite hi fi salesman or high end audio ragazine.



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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops,
inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc.
Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or
more of those failings. I've visited the homes of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but
yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings
is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of
the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has
one or more of those problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I
can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say
"I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that
there's something going on with you that keeps you from
hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl.


Wrong Arny.


No, right.

As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison".


Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water
every time.

The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and
generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of
lifelike sound.

It's ALL artificial.


Not necessarily. I've played CDs through a live sound system and
temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going
on.

I can listen through a few tics.


Leaving the remaining highly audible problems of rumble, pops, inner groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc.


I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made
of plastic.


Blame the production people, not the essentially perfect medium that is
readily available to us all.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

"ScottW" wrote in message

On Aug 29, 1:57 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops,
inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows,
etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have
one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear,
but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those
failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to
be some of the best high end audio shows around, and
even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl
always has one or more of those problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way",
I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say
"I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that
there's something going on with you that keeps you from
hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl.


Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I
can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a
recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made
of plastic.


You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


Given all her rants about the glories of vinyl, one would think...

Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that.


I blame it all on hysteria.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
,
ScottW wrote:


Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I
can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a
recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made
of plastic.


You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and
I have on CD.


Obviously Jenn, you lack my 55 years, more or less, of listening to vinyl.

For the first 36 years of my life, basically vinyl was all that we had, and
it often sucked mightily even though our player technology for the last 10
or so years was essentially what is available today.

During that time I heard plenty of recordings that made music sound like it
was played on plastic instruments.

Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking
about all the CD players I've heard.


Obviously a problem with lack of experience, but I think there is a little
bias and hysteria tossed in. Nothing like recently blowing nearly a $grand
on a vinyl player to keep the illusion going.




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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in
message news:w90uk.33$Dj1.32@trnddc02

Yeah, I had a lot invested in vinyl when CDs came out.


Ditto.

But I always had a love-hate relationship with vinyl.


Ditto, just like tubes.

I knew how good it could sound, but it rarely did. It took
a lot of maintenance to keep it sounding good, and even
then the sound inevitably deteriorated. CDs were cheap,
accurate and repeatable. Hi-fi for the masses. I think
that was the problem. Any old kid on a skateboard could
afford truly high fidelity without even caring or
appreciating the concept.


Agreed. As soon as CD players got to be cheap and plentiful, the CD format
became a target for the high end ragazines. After all, they were minting so
much money from ads by vinyl-centric retailers and manufacturers.


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,
*Clyde Slick wrote:


On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


ScottW-


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.

Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. * Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.

ScottW-


remember that this comparison is over time.
'The population numbers have grown considerably
since the first measure.
The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased.
Now it is extremely likely that a higher number of the larger
current teenage population has not tasted grape soda
than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago.

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Posts: 6,545
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote:





On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote:


On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,
*Clyde Slick wrote:


On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


ScottW-


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.


Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. * Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.


ScottW-


remember that this comparison is over time.
'The population numbers have grown considerably
since the first measure.
The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased.
Now it is extremely likely


*You simply have no basis for that claim.

that a higher number of the larger
current teenage population has not tasted grape soda


*Try to keep this connected with the original claim that
fewer people know the sound of acoustic music.
It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people
know the sound of acoustic and more people don't.

than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago.


Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided.
There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean
and the never tasted it population.



its deduction, not speculation.
I said "more likely", and it certainly is that.
A lower mean, a larger population, means
it is considerably more likely than not that fewer
numbers of teens tasted grape soda

I am commenting upon your conclusions regarding
statisitics, not on acoustic music.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 31 Aug, 17:22, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 11:44*am, Clyde Slick wrote:





On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote:


On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote:


On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote:


On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,
*Clyde Slick wrote:


On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


ScottW-


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.


Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. * Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.


ScottW-


remember that this comparison is over time.
'The population numbers have grown considerably
since the first measure.
The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased.
Now it is extremely likely


*You simply have no basis for that claim.


that a higher number of the larger
current teenage population has not tasted grape soda


*Try to keep this connected with the original claim that
fewer people know the sound of acoustic music.
It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people
know the sound of acoustic and more people don't.


than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago.


Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided.
There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean
and the never tasted it population.


its deduction, not speculation.
I said "more likely", and it certainly is that.


*Which means you really have no idea and are
making gross assumptions about a distribution
for which you have virtually no applicable data.

It does make it easier to speculate though.


I "know" its more likey, that it is more likely is NOT speculation.
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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Posts: 6,545
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On 31 Aug, 17:22, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 11:44*am, Clyde Slick wrote:





On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote:


On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote:


On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote:


On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,
*Clyde Slick wrote:


On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


ScottW-


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.


Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. * Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.


ScottW-


remember that this comparison is over time.
'The population numbers have grown considerably
since the first measure.
The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased.
Now it is extremely likely


*You simply have no basis for that claim.


that a higher number of the larger
current teenage population has not tasted grape soda


*Try to keep this connected with the original claim that
fewer people know the sound of acoustic music.
It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people
know the sound of acoustic and more people don't.


than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago.


Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided.
There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean
and the never tasted it population.


its deduction, not speculation.
I said "more likely", and it certainly is that.


*Which means you really have no idea and are
making gross assumptions about a distribution
for which you have virtually no applicable data.

It does make it easier to speculate though.

ScottW-


I thought it over the stats and logic, I made a mistake, but NOT the
one you accuse me of, a different one, in simple logic.
A larger population and a lower mean possible could
mean a higher number of teenagers tried grape soda, solely
because of the larger population. The percentage of teens
would likey be lower, but the trend of the absolute number of teens
drinking grape soda is not predictable. With a lower percentage
aqnd a higher population counterbalancing each other, it
can't be predicted.


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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
,
ScottW wrote:


Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I
can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a
recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made
of plastic.

You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and
I have on CD.


Obviously Jenn, you lack my 55 years, more or less, of listening to vinyl.


That's true. I'm only 51.


For the first 36 years of my life, basically vinyl was all that we had, and
it often sucked mightily even though our player technology for the last 10
or so years was essentially what is available today.

During that time I heard plenty of recordings that made music sound like it
was played on plastic instruments.


I've heard lots of bad reproduction via LP, but bad in different ways
than some digital.


Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking
about all the CD players I've heard.


Obviously a problem with lack of experience,


lol A statement for which you have no evidence.

but I think there is a little
bias and hysteria tossed in.


Of course you do.

Nothing like recently blowing nearly a $grand
on a vinyl player to keep the illusion going.


You're entitled to your opinion.
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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"ScottW" wrote in message

On Aug 29, 1:57 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,

Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops,
inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows,
etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have
one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes
of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear,
but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those
failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to
be some of the best high end audio shows around, and
even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl
always has one or more of those problems.

and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.

Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way",
I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say
"I've got clearly audible flaws".

We've been through this before.

Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that
there's something going on with you that keeps you from
hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl.

Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I
can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a
recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made
of plastic.


You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


Given all her rants about the glories of vinyl, one would think...


What rants? As you know perfectly well, all I've said is that the best
at home sound that I've heard is from the best LPs. I've also said that
most CDs sound better than most LPs. Hardly a "rant".


Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that.


I blame it all on hysteria.


Sure you do.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops,
inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc.
Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or
more of those failings. I've visited the homes of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but
yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings
is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of
the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has
one or more of those problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I
can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say
"I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that
there's something going on with you that keeps you from
hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl.


Wrong Arny.


No, right.

As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison".


Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water
every time.


Good for you. I hear it differently. Please keep enjoying your music,
and I'll enjoy mine.


The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and
generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of
lifelike sound.

It's ALL artificial.


Not necessarily. I've played CDs through a live sound system and
temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going
on.


I can't imagine that happening, but good for you and for those people.
Nothing coming through a speaker ever sounds close to real, IMO.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 11:50*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic
music to ______ (insert name)."


Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all
what the original acoustic performance sounded like
because they weren't there.


As I wrote, "typical acoustic music".


Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same?


What makes you think that?


*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner
groove
distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to
hear an
LP
that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited
the
homes
of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when
they
play
vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to
what
are
alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and
even
in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more
of
those
problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can
count on
vinyl
to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible
flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's
something
going
on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible
flaws
of
vinyl.


Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of
"picking
your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few
tics.
*I
can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an
instrument made of plastic.


*You think digital does that to a recording of a violin?


I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD.


All recordings or just some?


All to a greater or lesser degree.


That would indicate there is a factor other than
digital infuencing your perception.


Why?





*Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam
doesn't do that.


Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the
CD
players I've heard.


*All CD players make violins sound like plastic.


To a greater or lesser degree in certain ranges of the instrument. *I
hear a similar problem with female voice above about G on top of the
treble staff.


I suspect your room curve of your digital system(s) is not
representative
of live music to you. Flat FR is not typical of live music.
Some recordings have some compensation, others have none.
Your vinyl rig likely provides some hi-freq rolloff that is more to
your liking.
For less than $100 and your PC you can set yourself up to measure
it.


Except that I've heard what I hear on all digital systems in all the
rooms in which I've heard digital.


Lots of articles available on room curves, here's just one.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...what-why-you-n
eed-how-do.html

Probably the flattest HF response speakers I've owned were the
Legacy's
and your comments remind me a bit of them.

ScottW


Interesting thoughts, thanks.
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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*Clyde Slick wrote:





On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:


In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article

,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message
.
net
In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such
an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with
less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by
more than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds
like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.
Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


ScottW-


LOL!!!


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.

Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.

ScottW


Scott, the example was statistics showing that fewer teenagers drink
grape soda, not that the same number of teenagers who drank grape soda
years ago now drink less of it. See the difference?


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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Aug 29, 11:53*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,


*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article

m,


*vlad wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

et
In article
,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

l.ne
t
In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:


In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger
wrote:


Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an
equalizer.


How to increase "warmth":


snip


Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this
automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given
that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound
of
vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market.


Why do you say, "claim to"?


Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl
might have nothing to do with actual sound quality.


True with CDs too, of course.


Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such
an
off-topic
comment?


Just being clear.


There does seem to be a general preference for sound with
less
audible
noise
and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs
by
more
than
100:
1.


Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds
like.


* What an elitist statement to make.


Not at all.


Yeah, it was a bit snooty.


No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical.


*Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty?


That's because you're wrong. *Again.


You're snootier than you wish you were.
You just don't like to hear about it.


Oh I see.


If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did
10
years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what
grape soda tastes like?


*If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and
culinary appreciation,
yeah, and it's also wrong.
I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they
taste like.
Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented.


You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers
drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through.


Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what
it tastes like....


Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right?


George and sshhh may disagree.
But the point stands. Just because less grape soda overall is
consumed by teenagers in no way demonstrates that more teenagers
have never had a grape soda. The mean may have gone from dozens to a
dozen.
The doesn't mean the distribution has a tail approaching zero.


unless they're one of your students.


Why does anyone even bother to try with you?


Trying to convince me that wrong is right and
poor logic suffices for "critical thinking?


*The set of
people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of
grape
soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were
exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as
people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them.


I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency
of exposure
it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any
acoustic music
by the time they're age 12.


Did I say anything resembling that?


Yes you did by claiming that fewer people know what acoustic
music sounds like.


I've never said that the number of people who have EVER heard acoustic
music is shrinking. But since the trend over the last 40 or so years
has been the fewer NEW people started attending acoustic concerts, and
the trend over the last 20 or so years is that fewer acoustic
instruments are sold and played, the reasonable assumption is that fewer
people than 40 years ago know how those instruments TYPICALLY sound.




Ask your community college students for some assistance with
your critical thinking.


I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've
met who graduated from UofI.


Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any
qualification for judgement.


I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads. *
You are one of them.


Online is a pathetic substitute for knowing.

ScottW

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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Posts: 4,172
Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

WHY IS THIS DISCUSSION CROSS-POSTED TO REC.AUDIO.TECH???

IT APPEARS TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH "TECH"


  #78   Report Post  
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Jenn[_3_] Jenn[_3_] is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

In article ,
"Richard Crowley" wrote:

WHY IS THIS DISCUSSION CROSS-POSTED TO REC.AUDIO.TECH???

IT APPEARS TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH "TECH"


Because the original poster posted it to that group and no one has
changed it.
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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On Aug 31, 11:12*pm, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote:
*Clyde Slick wrote:


today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott.


Doesn't change anything.


Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure
count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by
mean change. * Your premise is the count outside
the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for
your claim is based upon the average.
That is foolish.


Scott, the example was statistics showing that fewer teenagers drink
grape soda, not that the same number of teenagers who drank grape soda
years ago now drink less of it. *See the difference?


Asking 2pid to see something is foolish. 2pid is blind.
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Default Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell

On Aug 31, 10:43*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Arny Krueger" wrote:





"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


"Jenn" wrote in message


*There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds,


Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops,
inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc.
Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or
more of those failings. I've visited the homes of
audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but
yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings
is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of
the best high end audio shows around, and even in
carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has
one or more of those problems.


and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way.


Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I
can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say
"I've got clearly audible flaws".


We've been through this before.


Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that
there's something going on with you that keeps you from
hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl.


Wrong Arny.


No, right.


* As I've said many times before, it's a
matter of "picking your poison".


Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water
every time.


Good for you. *I hear it differently. *Please keep enjoying your music,
and I'll enjoy mine.



The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and
generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of
lifelike sound.


* It's ALL artificial.


Not necessarily. *I've played CDs through a live sound system and
temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going
on.


I can't imagine that happening, but good for you and for those people. *
Nothing coming through a speaker ever sounds close to real, IMO.


I've been fooled before, but only when there are corners or hallways
between the source and me.

I think GOIA's bias is showing.
 
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