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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
,
Jenn wrote:

From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


Hence the new product category of iPod docks.


I'm pretty sure I've recently read that the dollar value of the current
market for iPod docks compares with or exceeds the market for all
conventional home audio components.


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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
,
Jenn wrote:

From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


Hence the new product category of iPod docks.


I'm pretty sure I've recently read that the dollar value of the current
market for iPod docks compares with or exceeds the market for all
conventional home audio components.


It wouldn't surprise me at all.
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[email protected] elmir2m@shaw.ca is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On Jun 5, 12:27*pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message

...
On Jun 5, 11:50 am, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:



"Jenn" wrote in message


....


From Cnet:


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


It occurs to me, that the audiophile debacle has some elements in common
with the implosion of domestic car manufacturers. In any mass production
enterprise, there are two tropisms:


1. Economy of scale. Simply put, it means that the more a company makes of
one thing, without variation, the cheaper the production process.


2. Creation or retention of the market by novelty. Some things, like bread
and water, can be sold over and over again. but the discretionary purchase
seems to require novelty, at least to the individual buyer. If the same
thing is sold over and over again, the market saturates.


3. Customer retention by familiarity. On a repeat purchase, the customer
desires a replacement with many of the attributes of the original.


* *That's 3 Bob. *Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some definition
not mass produced?

ScottW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*------------------------------
I don't think it's important for the argument to pin this down precisely.
Early in the Industrial Era, mass production was represented by the concept
of "interchangeable parts", which certainly applies here. * Mass production
encompasses large differences of scale. Even in the case exclusive
audiophile gear, the maker enjoys economies of scale by making a run as
large as possible.

In my opinion, for the purpose of the argument, all audiophile gear is mass
produced, except, perhaps, at the extreme high end.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The truth is that this "audio" group was taken over by the NeoNazis,
individuals with boring vendettas and barely literaste show-offs. It
is a lost proposition. I'd leave it them and look at Audio-Asylum and
occasionally at "Audiophile Audition " , "TNT Audio" and "Audiophile
melomane"

Ludovic Mirabel
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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

In article ,
"Soundhaspriority" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


It occurs to me, that the audiophile debacle has some elements in common
with the implosion of domestic car manufacturers. In any mass production
enterprise, there are two tropisms:

1. Economy of scale. Simply put, it means that the more a company makes of
one thing, without variation, the cheaper the production process.

2. Creation or retention of the market by novelty. Some things, like bread
and water, can be sold over and over again. but the discretionary purchase
seems to require novelty, at least to the individual buyer. If the same
thing is sold over and over again, the market saturates.

3. Customer retention by familiarity. On a repeat purchase, the customer
desires a replacement with many of the attributes of the original.

These considerations ferment in the minds of marketing executives and
accountants, who jointly reach decisions intended to maximize profits. But
very intelligent people make big mistakes in balancing the above. It seems
that people have a bias toward continuing a current strategy. The Future has
to hit them on the head before they wake up and take notice, as GM and Ford
have learned to their dismay.

I am afraid that the audio press has had a role in this. JA has told me that
the magazines merely follow the interests of readers and the market, but no
less than Tom Wolfe provides a potent counterargument in his book, "The
Painted Word", which chronicles the interplay of critics, media, and artists
in the history of Modern Art, in NY, in the 20th Century. He puts forth a
convincing argument that the media "made" the artists, in a version of that
famous Parisian ritual, the Apache Dance. As audio is a cultural movement,
the same interaction is plausible.

Cultural endeavors, of which hifi is one, seem to have lifetimes. They start
out as gleams in the eyes of a few, become movements, are exploited,
bowdlerized or consumerized, and trail off with a distant sigh. There is no
reason why audio should be exempt. But there are also nihilistic movements
that sweep through like a tsunami. After a period, tender new shoots appear
in the apparently barren soil.

The hifi industry offers the buyer Detroit's 11,243 options, but it's still
the same car. They do this because they are afraid to venture. Similar
errors were made in the marketing of the hidef formats. So eager were the
players for ROI, they used the new media to reissue their old libraries.

The retrogressive thinking on the part of makers, listeners, and yes, hifi
magazines has created a world of Civil War re-enactors. It's fine fun to
have those characters walking around on a holiday. But it's cultural poison
to make it The Culture. The young firebrands made everything around us that
is good or bad. "Old" thinkers can only produce indifferent things.

The High End has provided many gifts, but many of the negative things people
say about it are true. The High End is consumed with itself. It does not
look outside. It observes itself in a mirror, obsessed with minor variations
on a theme. I look at Sam Tellig's column (sorry, Stereophile), and I see a
box, a bookshelf speaker, more similar than different from those of a
generation ago. While quality componentry is important, the High End
mistakes the sizzle for the steak. And there really are too many Civil War
re-enactors, with muskets represented by vacuum tubes.

The fact that vinyl is attractive to so many of you is the fault of
Technology, which has failed to provide you with alternatives so
overwhelmingly superior that you would force yourselves to let it go. And
they exist! But they have been left out of the cultural movements of our
time. They have, because if you are not a firebrand, then you are a
follower. There is no shame in it, but followers have to be convinced by
firebrands. It is the way of the world.

It all became clear to me when I discovered that there was no audiophile box
for headphone listening that would provide an HRTF (head related transfer
function), essential to a virtual reality experience. Such a box would be a
stand-alone device that requires no new infrastructure or media. In other
words, it would be a gadget. The absence of a single such device in the
marketplace is emblematic of a movement that has expired.

Permit me to "reprint" something I posted a few days ago:

Spatial simulation, the simulation of "venue", or "soundfield synthesis" has
a long and honorable history of research by audio engineering scientists,
and has reached quite an advanced stage. It can be done either in a room, or
in the comparatively small space enclosed by a headphone or earpiece. With
headphones, the effect of a sound impinging on the pinnae from a particular
angle is simulated in electronics. Because everyone has a different shape
and size of pinnae, a simulator must calibrate to the user first. In the
Sennheiser procedure, the user listens to pink noise test tones, determining
which tones appear to come from a particular angle. The whole calibration
process takes about a minute.

My Sennheiser product is old, and does not handle discrete sources. HRTF
benefits from a lot of CPU power. The Sennheiser is far from the state of
the art. But why are improved products lacking? Sadly, while the technology
of soundfield synthesis is well advanced, the audiophile community has
seemingly rejected it as a source of additional diversity for the listening
experience. I wonder why?

This may be because the search for musical epiphany is a quasi-religious
experience, which does not mix well with gadgets. The high-end emphasis on
both cosmetics and traditional appearance serves the desire for a personal
tabernacle. But ironically, the truely abstract does not. To tell the Hifi
Seeker that epiphany might be found in a particular Algorithm simply puts
the abstract in the service of the spiritual. But paradoxically, the Seeker
prefers his epiphany to be channeled to him by the Material World, excluding
as much as possible things which he does not understand, and has no hope of
understanding. Yet people receive God all the time, and they have no hope of
understanding God.

But back to hifi. I recall that JA said or wrote something to the effect
that so much could be done with two properly set up speakers that the
rationale for more was weak. While I acknowledge that the most remarkably
enveloping experience available to me is provided by a pair of NEAR 50M
speakers set at a very particular angle, envelopment is only one measure.
Placing the NEARs required a lot of furniture rearrangment, and is not an
option for most listeners. Furthermore, it is not the most real experience.
Back-and-forth listening between various concert halls and my listening room
has convinced me that, unless you're particularly addicted to the third-row
experience, the surround synthesis experience is a much closer memento to
"being there."

Although the technology for this was in full flower by 1991, development
continued, pushed by Yamaha. Not only is it far more realistic than relying
on the characteristics of the listening room, it is far more flexible in
speaker placement. The sweet spot can become a "sweet line", containing a
far stronger image than two speakers can provide. This is because while the
brain can see through the fiction of stereo speakers, it is pleasantly
confused by more.

Many people have tried sound field synthesis, and been disappointed, due to
a common error. They think that the surround speakers need only provide the
signature of faint reflections, and may therefore be of less than ultimate
quality. My own experiments indicate that the quality of the surrounds,
particularly the tweeters, is in fact crucial. It is very hard to find
surrounds with ribbon tweeters, but anything less results in location of the
beams, and a subtle sheen of distortion. I was lucky to pick up Radio Shack
speakers with Linaeum tweeters. The bass/mids are quite mediocre, but the
tweeter has the ideal characteristics: distortion that decreases with
frequency, and broad horizontal dispersion.

The advertisements in audio magazines tell us that the audiophile Seeker has
lost his way. The thermionic anodes of vacuum tube equipment exert a
"seductive effect". The connotation of this last is neutral, while the
phrase "idolic attraction" is strongly negative. Which is more applicable?
Audiophilia is a part of our culture, and culture is a matter of proportion.
People frequently deplore a phenomena that causes or allows one element of
culture extinguishes another. The High End now possesses many elements of
anti-technology that have actually displaced elements of technology from the
marketplace. This is a form of cultural extinction.

In 2008, the technology of Virtual Reality appears to have been rejected by
the audiophile community, eclipsed by retrograde elements. The audiophile
community has encapsulated itself in the search for the personal tabernacle.
But the capsule is shrinking, constrained by inflexible, traditional
thinking. We may seek solace from the knowledge that rebirth cannot happen
without death.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511


An interesting think-piece, Bob. I'll come back to it when I'm up to
actually thinking! (maybe later today)


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BretLudwig BretLudwig is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

Twaddlebottom speaks:



"The truth is that this "audio" group was taken over by the NeoNazis,

individuals with boring vendettas and barely literate show-offs. It
is a lost proposition. I'd leave it them and look at Audio-Asylum and
occasionally at "Audiophile Audition " , "TNT Audio" and "Audiophile
melomane"

Ludovic Mirabel"

Twaddle of course. The group was ABANDONED to the leftish and nut
contingent before I challenged them. Audio wasn't the subject before to
begin with.

Twaddle himself admitted that "he had no technical knowledge" and further
wanted or would work to achieve none. So he was blowing geriatric ass to
begin with.

Waddle off, Twaddlebottom. You are not wanted here.

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutaudio.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/
More information at http://www.talkaboutaudio.com/faq.html


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Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Posts: 11,415
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On Jun 5, 4:18*pm, "BretLudwig" wrote:

*Twaddle of course. The group was ABANDONED to the leftish and nut
contingent before I challenged them. Audio wasn't the subject before to
begin with.


I am "challenged" by your ignorant views, Bratzi, as we all are. I
note all of the OT posts and propaganda posted by the "leftish and nut
contingent" here on a daily basis.

But thank you for admitting that you and 2pid constitute the "nut
contingent" here.
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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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Posts: 1,243
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance


"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


It occurs to me, that the audiophile debacle has some elements in common
with the implosion of domestic car manufacturers. In any mass production
enterprise, there are two tropisms:

1. Economy of scale. Simply put, it means that the more a company makes of
one thing, without variation, the cheaper the production process.

2. Creation or retention of the market by novelty. Some things, like bread
and water, can be sold over and over again. but the discretionary purchase
seems to require novelty, at least to the individual buyer. If the same
thing is sold over and over again, the market saturates.

3. Customer retention by familiarity. On a repeat purchase, the customer
desires a replacement with many of the attributes of the original.

These considerations ferment in the minds of marketing executives and
accountants, who jointly reach decisions intended to maximize profits. But
very intelligent people make big mistakes in balancing the above. It seems
that people have a bias toward continuing a current strategy. The Future
has to hit them on the head before they wake up and take notice, as GM and
Ford have learned to their dismay.

I am afraid that the audio press has had a role in this. JA has told me
that the magazines merely follow the interests of readers and the market,
but no less than Tom Wolfe provides a potent counterargument in his book,
"The Painted Word", which chronicles the interplay of critics, media, and
artists in the history of Modern Art, in NY, in the 20th Century. He puts
forth a convincing argument that the media "made" the artists, in a
version of that famous Parisian ritual, the Apache Dance. As audio is a
cultural movement, the same interaction is plausible.

Cultural endeavors, of which hifi is one, seem to have lifetimes. They
start out as gleams in the eyes of a few, become movements, are exploited,
bowdlerized or consumerized, and trail off with a distant sigh. There is
no reason why audio should be exempt. But there are also nihilistic
movements that sweep through like a tsunami. After a period, tender new
shoots appear in the apparently barren soil.

The hifi industry offers the buyer Detroit's 11,243 options, but it's
still the same car. They do this because they are afraid to venture.
Similar errors were made in the marketing of the hidef formats. So eager
were the players for ROI, they used the new media to reissue their old
libraries.

The retrogressive thinking on the part of makers, listeners, and yes,
hifi magazines has created a world of Civil War re-enactors. It's fine fun
to have those characters walking around on a holiday. But it's cultural
poison to make it The Culture. The young firebrands made everything around
us that is good or bad. "Old" thinkers can only produce indifferent
things.

The High End has provided many gifts, but many of the negative things
people say about it are true. The High End is consumed with itself. It
does not look outside. It observes itself in a mirror, obsessed with minor
variations on a theme. I look at Sam Tellig's column (sorry, Stereophile),
and I see a box, a bookshelf speaker, more similar than different from
those of a generation ago. While quality componentry is important, the
High End mistakes the sizzle for the steak. And there really are too many
Civil War re-enactors, with muskets represented by vacuum tubes.

The fact that vinyl is attractive to so many of you is the fault of
Technology, which has failed to provide you with alternatives so
overwhelmingly superior that you would force yourselves to let it go. And
they exist! But they have been left out of the cultural movements of our
time. They have, because if you are not a firebrand, then you are a
follower. There is no shame in it, but followers have to be convinced by
firebrands. It is the way of the world.

It all became clear to me when I discovered that there was no audiophile
box for headphone listening that would provide an HRTF (head related
transfer function), essential to a virtual reality experience. Such a box
would be a stand-alone device that requires no new infrastructure or
media. In other words, it would be a gadget. The absence of a single such
device in the marketplace is emblematic of a movement that has expired.

Permit me to "reprint" something I posted a few days ago:

Spatial simulation, the simulation of "venue", or "soundfield synthesis"
has
a long and honorable history of research by audio engineering scientists,
and has reached quite an advanced stage. It can be done either in a room,
or
in the comparatively small space enclosed by a headphone or earpiece. With
headphones, the effect of a sound impinging on the pinnae from a
particular
angle is simulated in electronics. Because everyone has a different shape
and size of pinnae, a simulator must calibrate to the user first. In the
Sennheiser procedure, the user listens to pink noise test tones,
determining
which tones appear to come from a particular angle. The whole calibration
process takes about a minute.

My Sennheiser product is old, and does not handle discrete sources. HRTF
benefits from a lot of CPU power. The Sennheiser is far from the state of
the art. But why are improved products lacking? Sadly, while the
technology
of soundfield synthesis is well advanced, the audiophile community has
seemingly rejected it as a source of additional diversity for the
listening
experience. I wonder why?

This may be because the search for musical epiphany is a quasi-religious
experience, which does not mix well with gadgets. The high-end emphasis
on
both cosmetics and traditional appearance serves the desire for a personal
tabernacle. But ironically, the truely abstract does not. To tell the Hifi
Seeker that epiphany might be found in a particular Algorithm simply puts
the abstract in the service of the spiritual. But paradoxically, the
Seeker
prefers his epiphany to be channeled to him by the Material World,
excluding
as much as possible things which he does not understand, and has no hope
of
understanding. Yet people receive God all the time, and they have no hope
of
understanding God.

But back to hifi. I recall that JA said or wrote something to the effect
that so much could be done with two properly set up speakers that the
rationale for more was weak. While I acknowledge that the most remarkably
enveloping experience available to me is provided by a pair of NEAR 50M
speakers set at a very particular angle, envelopment is only one measure.
Placing the NEARs required a lot of furniture rearrangment, and is not an
option for most listeners. Furthermore, it is not the most real
experience.
Back-and-forth listening between various concert halls and my listening
room
has convinced me that, unless you're particularly addicted to the
third-row
experience, the surround synthesis experience is a much closer memento to
"being there."

Although the technology for this was in full flower by 1991, development
continued, pushed by Yamaha. Not only is it far more realistic than
relying
on the characteristics of the listening room, it is far more flexible in
speaker placement. The sweet spot can become a "sweet line", containing a
far stronger image than two speakers can provide. This is because while
the
brain can see through the fiction of stereo speakers, it is pleasantly
confused by more.

Many people have tried sound field synthesis, and been disappointed, due
to
a common error. They think that the surround speakers need only provide
the
signature of faint reflections, and may therefore be of less than ultimate
quality. My own experiments indicate that the quality of the surrounds,
particularly the tweeters, is in fact crucial. It is very hard to find
surrounds with ribbon tweeters, but anything less results in location of
the
beams, and a subtle sheen of distortion. I was lucky to pick up Radio
Shack
speakers with Linaeum tweeters. The bass/mids are quite mediocre, but the
tweeter has the ideal characteristics: distortion that decreases with
frequency, and broad horizontal dispersion.

The advertisements in audio magazines tell us that the audiophile Seeker
has
lost his way. The thermionic anodes of vacuum tube equipment exert a
"seductive effect". The connotation of this last is neutral, while the
phrase "idolic attraction" is strongly negative. Which is more applicable?
Audiophilia is a part of our culture, and culture is a matter of
proportion.
People frequently deplore a phenomena that causes or allows one element
of
culture extinguishes another. The High End now possesses many elements of
anti-technology that have actually displaced elements of technology from
the
marketplace. This is a form of cultural extinction.

In 2008, the technology of Virtual Reality appears to have been rejected
by
the audiophile community, eclipsed by retrograde elements. The audiophile
community has encapsulated itself in the search for the personal
tabernacle.
But the capsule is shrinking, constrained by inflexible, traditional
thinking. We may seek solace from the knowledge that rebirth cannot happen
without death.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511


As a man with five full size speakers in his living room, I can attest to
the total surprise of most people who visit that somebody pays this much
attention to audio anymore, much less surround sound. Until they hear it.

Thanks for the thought-piece, Bob.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Posts: 17,262
Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
,
Jenn wrote:

From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede

Hence the new product category of iPod docks.


I'm pretty sure I've recently read that the dollar value
of the current market for iPod docks compares with or
exceeds the market for all conventional home audio
components.


It wouldn't surprise me at all.


This is happening because unlike magic cables and vinyl, iPods and the like
meet a widely perceived need. The fact that they can sound very good doesn't
hurt.


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Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Posts: 17,262
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

"ScottW" wrote in message

On Jun 5, 11:50 am, "Soundhaspriority"
wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

...

From Cnet:


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


It occurs to me, that the audiophile debacle has some
elements in common with the implosion of domestic car
manufacturers. In any mass production enterprise, there
are two tropisms:

1. Economy of scale. Simply put, it means that the more
a company makes of one thing, without variation, the
cheaper the production process.

2. Creation or retention of the market by novelty. Some
things, like bread and water, can be sold over and over
again. but the discretionary purchase seems to require
novelty, at least to the individual buyer. If the same
thing is sold over and over again, the market saturates.

3. Customer retention by familiarity. On a repeat
purchase, the customer desires a replacement with many
of the attributes of the original.

That's 3 Bob. Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made, its by definition
mass produced.




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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Posts: 6,545
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance



As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made, its by definition
mass produced.-


Get your definition down to four, then
we can include your abx box.
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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Posts: 6,545
Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

On 6 Iun, 06:10, "Arny Krueger" wrote:


This is happening because unlike magic cables and vinyl, iPods and the like
meet a widely perceived need.



No problem with magic, here.
Even your magic Jesus meets a need.
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TT TT is offline
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Posts: 716
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

That's 3 Bob. Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made, its by definition
mass produced.

Mmmmmmmmm.................... Interesting theory. VW will be pleased that
their *hand made* Bugatti Veyron is now a "mass produced" article!
According to you, that is.

Perhaps you should consider the differences involved between "mass produced"
and "low volume production"

TT


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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Posts: 11,415
Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

On Jun 6, 5:10*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message







In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
,
Jenn wrote:


From Cnet:


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


Hence the new product category of iPod docks.


I'm pretty sure I've recently read that the dollar value
of the current market for iPod docks compares with or
exceeds the market for all conventional home audio
components.


It wouldn't surprise me at all.


This is happening because unlike magic cables and vinyl, iPods and the like
meet a widely perceived need. The fact that they can sound very good doesn't
hurt.


This is funny.

"Magic" cables and vinyl do not meet a "widely perceived need". Yet
GOIA has deposited thousands of lines and tons of snot on RAO to
combat them.

That seems kind of insane to me.
  #15   Report Post  
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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Posts: 11,415
Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On Jun 6, 5:11*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message


* *That's 3 Bob. *Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made, its by definition
mass produced.


I'm sure many will find your "definition" funny (and insane).

mass production
n.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message

On Jun 6, 5:11 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message


That's 3 Bob. Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made,
its by definition mass produced.


I'm sure many will find your "definition" funny (and
insane).


Shows what little you know about producing products, especially electronic
products.

mass production
n.
The manufacture of goods in large quantities, often using
standardized designs and assembly-line techniques.


Works for me.

Um, My Master, "a few dozen" is not considered "a large quantity".


Obviously ****R you are unaware of the fact that "large quantity" is an
indefinate term. It is not a specfic number like 1 or 100. I guess your
moma should have told you about this.

A few thousand, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands
qualify.


So do a few dozen.

Here is a car that had 500 produced. Is this
"mass-produced"? LOL!



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C0A9649482 60


Oh, the Clenet motor car.

Here's a picture of a Clenet factory:

http://www.dimoramotorcar.com/previe...actory2-01.htm

A readily-discernable assembly line can be seen.

There's no doubt that the design of the Clenet is standardized. The only
possible sticking point is whether or not 500 cars is a "large quantity".
But "large quantity" is an indefinite amount. Proof of your point has
escaped you, ****R.


Insert My Master's argument that an amplifier company that
builds 100 amplifiers by hand is "mass-produced" because the chips
or transistors were...


Compared to the number of amplifiers or any electronic product that you have
personally built ****R, 1 is probably a "large quantity". ;-)


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George M. Middius[_4_] George M. Middius[_4_] is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance



Shhhh! said:

Insert GOIA argument that an amplifier company that builds 100
amplifiers by hand is "mass-produced" because the chips or transistors
were...


Careful with that "debating trade" stuff. It's the plutonium of the online
world.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

"George M. Middius" wrote in
message

Careful with that "debating trade" stuff. It's the
plutonium of the online world.


So speaks a servant of mine who bears many obvious radiation burns, and a
few more where the sun shines not.


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George M. Middius[_4_] George M. Middius[_4_] is offline
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Default What Went Wrong in Dr. Kroomacher's laboratory




There is a season
For ****, poop, turds
A time to argue
A time to be lyin'
A time to be dyin'
But to be Krooger? I think not.

Careful with that "debating trade" stuff. It's the
plutonium of the online world.


So speaks


[snip embittered fantasizing of the wreckage of poor, pathetic Arnii Krooborg]

Let's go back to the beginning, shall we...


The Krooborg argues that reality is unreal.

In post
Arnii F. Krooger said this:


You record one person at a time.


Then in post ,
the very same Arnii F. Krooger said this:


Thus avoiding the chemistry and good sound that comes
from having people sing together. You know Iain, your
advice is so bad, and reflects so much that is wrong
with the music industry these days. Furthermore this
is absolutely ludicrous advice because it prohibits
recording live performances with more than one
performer.


Jenn alertly noticed the Krooborg was arguing with
himself:


Just to be clear, Iain didn't write the second paragraph
above; you did.


[My supreme master], from this quote, it is impossible to discern what Jenn was whining[sic]
about.


Jenn totally humiliated you and you can't admit it.

Case closed for lack of evidence.


Those of us who can read and who understand how Usenet works see the
evidence plain as day. The evidence tells us that you're krazy as a bedbug,
that you will argue with anybody about anything just for the sake of
arguing, and that you're so stupid you can't remember what you posted 24
hours ago your own self.

And Jenn, believing she is being helpful to poor,
confused Arnii:


Just to be clear, Iain didn't write the second paragraph
above; you did.


Same story as above.


Indeed it is. Jenn totally humiliated you again by catching you in the
exact same act of unparalleled stupidity.

Given[sic] the usual level of idiocy on RAO, especially as practiced by
[my supreme master] and his posse[sic], the probable cause any possible misunderstandings is
simply their desire to obsess over me in public.


Today's subject is Arnii Krooger, the stupidest "god"-fearing dweeb who
ever posted to Usenet. Caught for the umpteenth time ARGUING WITH HIMSELF,
the poor dumb **** tries to deflect attention away from his own hopeless
stupidity.

But everybody knows you were completely exposed and humiliated by your
nemesis Jenn. We all know you're at a big disadvantage in "debating"
against a woman, Turdy. Your inability to acknowledge Jenn's trouncing of
you shows your misogeny yet again.



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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On 6 Iun, 16:26, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in

On Jun 6, 5:11 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message


That's 3 Bob. Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made,
its by definition mass produced.

I'm sure many will find your "definition" funny (and
insane).


Shows what little you know about producing products, especially electronic
products.

mass production
n.
The manufacture of goods in large quantities, often using
standardized *designs and assembly-line techniques.


Works for me.

Um, My Master, "a few dozen" is not considered "a large quantity".


Obviously ****R you are unaware of the fact that "large quantity" is an
indefinate term. *It is not a specfic number like 1 or 100. *I guess your
moma should have told you about this.

A few *thousand, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands
qualify.


So do a few dozen.

Here is a car that had 500 produced. Is this
"mass-produced"? LOL!
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...1338F932A05752....


Oh, the Clenet motor car.

Here's a picture of a Clenet factory:

http://www.dimoramotorcar.com/previe...actory2-01.htm

A readily-discernable assembly line can be seen.

There's no doubt that the design of the Clenet is standardized. The only
possible sticking point is whether or not 500 cars is a "large quantity".
But "large quantity" is an indefinite amount. Proof of your point has
escaped you, ****R.

Insert My Master's argument that an amplifier company that
builds 100 * amplifiers by hand is "mass-produced" because the chips
or transistors * were...


Compared to the number of amplifiers or any electronic product that you have
personally built ****R, 1 is probably a "large quantity". ;-)


When it comes to mass production, Arny's da man!!!

http://www.sakebomb.com/news/images/jeffand****.jpg


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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On Jun 6, 3:26*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in

On Jun 6, 5:11 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message


That's 3 Bob. Anyway, isn't audiophile gear by some
definition not mass produced?


As soon as a few dozen of any particular model are made,
its by definition mass produced.

I'm sure many will find your "definition" funny (and
insane).


Shows what little you know about producing products, especially electronic
products.


It does? LOL! Ah, insanity is such a funny thing.

I've worked for factories, GOIA. Call your buddies at GM or wherever
it was that you designed ashtrays. Ask them about how Bentley
automobiles are "mass-produced".

Prepare to get laughed at.

mass production
n.
The manufacture of goods in large quantities, often using
standardized *designs and assembly-line techniques.


Works for me.


I'm sure it does, GOIA. I'm sure a few dozen voters represent a "mass
of voters" to you as well. LOL!

See, GOIA, you can go buy mass-produced picture frames at Wal-Mart.
You can then go to your local frame shop and buy the exact same frame
made out of the exact same materials. One is mass-produced. The other,
even though it uses "standardized designs" and could even be made with
"assembly-line techniques", isn't.

Um, Peckerhead, "a few dozen" is not considered "a large quantity".


Obviously, you are superior to me. I am unaware of so much. To me "large quantity" is an
indefinate (sic) term. *It is not a specfic (sic) number like 1 or 100. *I guess your
moma (sic) should have told you about this.


"Moma"? "Modular Output Mimicking Activator"? I give up. What is that?
LOL!

Where would 100 of a thing be considered a "mass" (other than people
in a Catholic church...)? LOL!

A few *thousand, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands
qualify.


So do a few dozen.


Nope. That's "low-volume" production, not "mass" production.

Here is a car that had 500 produced. Is this
"mass-produced"? LOL!
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...1338F932A05752....


Oh, the Clenet motor car.


Yup. A low-volume, hand-built car. Just like a Ferrari or a Bentley.
Certainly not "mass-produced".

Here's a picture of a Clenet factory:

http://www.dimoramotorcar.com/previe...actory2-01.htm

A readily-discernable (sic) assembly line can be seen.


No, it can't, GOIA. You see several cars in a stationary position on a
factory floor being hand-build one at a time. Just because they are
not placed haphazardly on the floor does not necessarily mean that's
it's an "assembly line", to sane people anyway. LOL!

Here, here is "mass-produced". I think you can see the differences
even through your cloud of insanity:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/.../photo_01.html

Here is another definition of "mass-produced" which might sink through
your thick skull and cloud of insanity:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O48...roduction.html

Insert more justifications and obfuscation from the Peckerhead LOL!

There's no doubt that the design of the Clenet is standardized. The only
possible sticking point is whether or not 500 cars is a "large quantity".
But "large quantity" is an indefinite amount. Proof of your point has
escaped you, my intellectual superior.


I just *knew* that you'd blow a gasket on this one. LOL!

Insert peckerhead's argument that an amplifier company that
builds 100 * amplifiers by hand is "mass-produced" because the chips
or transistors were...


Did I call that one or what?

Say, GOIA, is a hobby farmer who produces a "few dozen" bushels of
wheat "mass-producing" wheat? LOL!

Compared to the number of amplifiers or any electronic product that you have
personally built, my intellectual superior , 1 is probably a "large quantity". ;-)


As Clyde pointed out, you're probably next going to claim that your
ABX box was "mass-produced". That's a more relevant comparison. LOL!
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TT TT is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance


"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
...


Here is another definition of "mass-produced" which might sink through
your thick skull and cloud of insanity:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O48...roduction.html


I do see the problem with Arny now. He has the similar interpretations as
your "White House" and their definitions on WMDs

So to use Arny's reasoning here is a WMD http://tinyurl.com/4k2ftz
and a lot of people better look out 'coz they are gunna get invaded :-))


Cheers TT


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message



I've worked for factories, GOIA.


You've worked at factories, eh?

BFD!

Well, that qualifies you get a paycheck if they don't fire you for
incompetence or slacking.

Call your buddies at GM
or wherever it was that you designed ashtrays. Ask them about how
Bentley automobiles are "mass-produced".


The production of luxury cars involves the basic processes of mass
production, which you even listed out in a previous posts.

****R, you saw the right answer, you quoted it, and you didn't get it.

Pathetic! :-(




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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Default What Went Wrong -- The Apache Dance

On Jun 7, 5:51*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in

I've worked for factories, GOIA.


You've worked at factories, eh?


Yup.

BFD!


It just means that I've seen mass-production up close, which you
apparently haven't.

Well, that qualifies you get a paycheck if they don't fire you for
incompetence or slacking.


And it qualifies me as having seen mass-production up close, which you
apparently haven't. LOL!

Call your buddies at GM
or wherever *it was that you designed ashtrays. Ask them about how
Bentley *automobiles are "mass-produced".


The production of luxury cars involves the basic processes of mass
production, which you even listed out in a previous posts.


Lots of things involve the basic processes of mass-production, GOIA.
Two children running a lemonade stand can show the basic processes of
mass-production. As I said, workers in a picture-frame shop can as
well.

That doesn't mean, however, that they are "mass-producing" lemonade or
picture frames.

LOL!

****R, you saw the right answer, you quoted it, and you didn't get it.


Did you ask your friends at the ashtray department about Bentley?

I didn't think so.

Pathetic! :-(


You really should.

You'll argue anything to not look wrong. But you seldom look right.
What up, homie?

LOL!

Now go take your insane debating trade elsewhere. You're boring me,
GOIA.
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Rockinghorse Winner[_3_] Rockinghorse Winner[_3_] is offline
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Default "Adieu to the true audiophile?"

In rec.audio.opinion, Jenn had the audacity to say that:

From Cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-99...?tag=nefd.lede


One often overlooked issue is the social aspect of music. The fact that one
can listen to music these days in the company of several thousand people on
sites like youtube, last.fm, imusic is an important consideration. One can
listen and comment on the music in real time.

This virtual community dovetails nicely with popular music, as the latter is
specifically a social not a solitary activity.

Playing records in one's audio den with a a couple of friends was the model
in the 60's and 70's but now the model is a large room, that is virtually
expanded to include several thousand *friends* further subdivided into
cliques to include several dozen individuals apiece.

It's not so much that people don't care for hifi, it's that the technology
currently available doesn't allow for hifi quality streaming audio
reproduction over the internet.

If the owners of web sites would provide the service, and ISP's provided the
bandwidth, hifi audio would be something people would be interested in and
something that could be marketed. But as yet, those conditions don't exist
in the marketplace.

*R* *H*

--

"For me, prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward
heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and
joy." - Saint Therese of Lisieux
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