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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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hank alrich wrote:

You're in a loop and you can't get out, because your mind is closed and
your mouth is open. See Mose Allison for help.


What about George Clinton?
--scott

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet music, or
for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the Pizza store owner
(or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a year because he is using
their music to draw customers into his establishment and we are playing
there for free, so he has little choice but to stop us, then I object to
that.


Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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PStamler PStamler is offline
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On May 26, 8:33*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
1957 was over 50 years ago, and BMI is
not giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between 1927
and 1957.


Do you have any evidence to support that claim? If not, you shouldn't
make it.

Peace,
Paul

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Richard Webb[_3_] Richard Webb[_3_] is offline
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Scott Dorsey writes:
their music to draw customers into his establishment and we are playing
there for free, so he has little choice but to stop us, then I object to
that.


Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.


I'm with Rick and Scott on this. Bill should do something
about it, or shut up.

BIll has obviously never created anything in his life, so he has no respect for people who have. tHIs goes along with
his inability to pay attention in civics class or he'd know
that if he wants the laws changed he has to approach the
legislative branch of government.

Richard
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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.


Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott


No. YOU are tired of hearing about it. I was answering others who are still
talking about it. When they stop, then I will stop. Until then, I am free to
answer any and all comments about it, regardless of how tired you are.



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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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John Williamson wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
Ben Bradley wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2011 08:18:15 -0700, Rick Ruskin
wrote:
If he wants free music to perform, he should write some and give
it away.

It's enough to make one go baroque.

Otherwise, he should shut the **** up.

That music was written like 60 years ago. The people who wrote it
are all dead and gone. BMI has no business collecting a dime for
any of it. It should all be in the public domain. Instead of a
fixed year, (like 1927) the year before which music enters the
public domain should go up a year every year. Maqybe 1927 was a
good cut-off point 30 years ago, but today it should be 30 years
after that, or 1957. If BMI collects money for its performance,
then who do they give that money to? Do you suppose they keep it
for themselves? I think they do. I think they are just a bunch of
lawyers lining their own pockets with money they are stealing from
the public.

Look at it from the writer's side. The composer writes a piece of
music in his twenties. Ha possibly has no income apart from
royalties, which aren't enough for him to build up a decent pension
pot, but he knows that if the music keeps being played, he'll get
money for that. His (or her) spouse may well survive them by a
number of years, and wll need the money that BMI (Or, over here,
PRS and MCPS) collect on their behalf to survive. Or, it may be
paying for the composer's children to go through music college to
write and perform more music. Now you want to come along and make
money one the back of their creativity, but you're not going to pay
them a dime. Does that sound fair?
Also, if the music's so out of date it's not worth paying royalties
for, then I assume you perform it for free, and don't see why any
musician playing the "worthless" stuff that *is* out of copyright
should get paid. Say, the members of the New York Philharmonic.


I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that. Especially when the
music was written in the years between 1927 and 1957, and the only
people who appreciate it are in their seventies. (usually from the
local retirement centers) 1957 was over 50 years ago, and BMI is not
giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between
1927 and 1957.


The fee is to play *any* music, not just the stuff you play. The shop
owner could, for the same fee, get a modern band in to play modern
music. The fee is also, as has been said elsewhere in the thread,
negotiable to a degree if you want to make the effort. Mind you, the
fee of $1000 a year is less than the profit on a dozen extra pizzas a
week, and hopefully, he's seeing more than a dozen people a week
extra through his doors due to your playing. If not, then maybe he
needs a better band.
If BMI do the same as the PRS in Britain, then part of the money
collected is also paid to the estate of dead composers. Neither BMI
there or the PRS here *own* the music. They act *solely* as a
collection agent on behalf of the composers or other rights holders
that have asked them to do so.

However, as you seem to be uninterested in the facts, I'll say no
more.


I am not, "uninterested" in the facts. I just don't like the facts. And,
unlike a hell of a lot of other people, I am willing to say so. I don't
believe that everything the government does, or all the laws they make, are
"A" ok.

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timewarp2008 timewarp2008 is offline
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On May 27, 5:00*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
Ben Bradley wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2011 08:18:15 -0700, Rick Ruskin
wrote:
If he wants free music to perform, he should write some and give
it away.


* It's enough to make one go baroque.


Otherwise, he should shut the **** up.


That music was written like 60 years ago. The people who wrote it
are all dead and gone. BMI has no business collecting a dime for
any of it. It should all be in the public domain. Instead of a
fixed year, (like 1927) the year before which music enters the
public domain should go up a year every year. Maqybe 1927 was a
good cut-off point 30 years ago, but today it should be 30 years
after that, or 1957. If BMI collects money for its performance,
then who do they give that money to? Do you suppose they keep it
for themselves? I think they do. I think they are just a bunch of
lawyers lining their own pockets with money they are stealing from
the public.


Look at it from the writer's side. The composer writes a piece of
music in his twenties. Ha possibly has no income apart from
royalties, which aren't enough for him to build up a decent pension
pot, but he knows that if the music keeps being played, he'll get
money for that. His (or her) spouse may well survive them by a
number of years, and wll need the money that BMI (Or, over here,
PRS and MCPS) collect on their behalf to survive. Or, it may be
paying for the composer's children to go through music college to
write and perform more music. Now you want to come along and make
money one the back of their creativity, but you're not going to pay
them a dime. Does that sound fair?
Also, if the music's so out of date it's not worth paying royalties
for, then I assume you perform it for free, and don't see why any
musician playing the "worthless" stuff that *is* out of copyright
should get paid. Say, the members of the New York Philharmonic.


I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that. Especially when the
music was written in the years between 1927 and 1957, and the only
people who appreciate it are in their seventies. (usually from the
local retirement centers) 1957 was over 50 years ago, and BMI is not
giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between
1927 and 1957.


The fee is to play *any* music, not just the stuff you play. The shop
owner could, for the same fee, get a modern band in to play modern
music. The fee is also, as has been said elsewhere in the thread,
negotiable to a degree if you want to make the effort. Mind you, the
fee of $1000 a year is less than the profit on a dozen extra pizzas a
week, and hopefully, he's seeing more than a dozen people a week
extra through his doors due to your playing. If not, then maybe he
needs a better band.
If BMI do the same as the PRS in Britain, then part of the money
collected is also paid to the estate of dead composers. Neither BMI
there or the PRS here *own* the music. They act *solely* as a
collection agent on behalf of the composers or other rights holders
that have asked them to do so.


However, as you seem to be uninterested in the facts, I'll say no
more.


I am not, "uninterested" in the facts. I just don't like the facts.


You have shown no interest in the facts. What you don't like seems
to be a bunch of non-factual garbarge that you apparently just pulled
out of your asshole, presumably to make more room for your head.
The situation that you keep whining about doesn't exist. But you
refuse to acknowledge the facts, prefering to repeat a load of utter
crap, on a forum where many of us actually know how it really
works, from actual experience. Not from some half-baked whine fest
from an ill-informed jerk who has no interest in the facts.

Yeah, you keep repeating your whining, but you're only whining about
a situation that exists in your dumb**** imagination. Not anything in
the real world. You have clearly and unambiguously proven that you
have no interest in the facts. You just like to whine that you should
get a free ride, being the leech that you are. And if you had half a
brain, you might even be able to get that free ride that you think
you're
entitled to.

But that would require listening to the real facts, from people that
actually
know the situation, and actually dealing with real people without
constantly
bleating about some bull**** that's only in your imagination. And as
much
as you'd like to sponge off the free ride that you think you deserve,
you
seem to prefer spouting your ignorance, proving far and wide to anyone
that reads you tirades, that you're ****ing moron. That seems to be
your
real goal. Mission accomplished, Numpty.

Nope, you're not interested in the facts, and you've provided the
proof of that.





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On May 26, 9:33*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:

I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet music, or
for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the Pizza store owner
(or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a year because he is using
their music to draw customers into his establishment and we are playing
there for free, so he has little choice but to stop us, then I object to
that. Especially when the music was written in the years between 1927 and
1957, and the only people who appreciate it are in their seventies. (usually
from the local retirement centers) 1957 was over 50 years ago, and BMI is
not giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between 1927
and 1957


Where are you getting this figure from? Because I spoke with an
establishment owner who claimed he was being held up for an $800 fee
but it turned out that in truth it was for $500, and he probably ended
up paying half of that. I wouldn't believe anyone, including the
voices in your head, regarding why they're too broke to pay you.

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On May 26, 9:33*pm, "Little Wille Dum****" reached
up his ass and pulled out:
BMI is
not giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between 1927
and 1957.


That statement is complete and utter bull****.
It's patently false statements like this that can
lead to the accusations that you aren't interested
in facts. You're nothing but a blowhard and a leech.

BMI is certainly paying songwriters their fees for
performances of their songs written during those
years, and it's not only geezers in diapers like you
that like to listen to music from those years. That
granite blockage in your rectum (your head) must
really be backing you up.

You should really consider the "curl up and die" option
that you were considering earlier, since you've given up
on the learn-the-facts option, and even the shut-your-whine-
hole option.

Dumb**** numpty.


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vdubreeze wrote:
On May 26, 9:33 pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:

I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that. Especially when the
music was written in the years between 1927 and 1957, and the only
people who appreciate it are in their seventies. (usually from the
local retirement centers) 1957 was over 50 years ago, and BMI is not
giving any of that money to anyone who composed any music between
1927 and 1957


Where are you getting this figure from? Because I spoke with an
establishment owner who claimed he was being held up for an $800 fee
but it turned out that in truth it was for $500, and he probably ended
up paying half of that. I wouldn't believe anyone, including the
voices in your head, regarding why they're too broke to pay you.


Speaking of hearing voices.....I never said they paid me. They don't pay
anyone for the music. We, (and Blake) are not pro's. We are retired people
who like to play music. The Pizza parlor owner just lets us play in his
place once a month. (or did, before the BMI brownshirts threatened to sue
him if he didn't pay them $1000 a year) The law apparently says that if
anybody makes any money at all from playing the music, even if there3 is no
cover charge and all they are doing is attracting customers with it by
making the place more pleasant because of it, then BMI can sue them for
money. Now, Blake plays dixieland music, and there are quite a lot of good
dixieland pieces written before 1923 (which is the cut-off year, I think)
So, he could play that music, but he has to be able to prove that anything
he plays was written before then, and the only way to do that is to have the
actual first published sheet music with the copyright date printed on it.
Blake can't do that, because he doesn't spend his life rummaging around in
old sheet music bins in second hand stores and flea markets. The law is not
only oppressive, but it puts the burden of proof on the suee, rather than
the suer. IOW, BMI can go around suing musicians, no matter what they play
and where they play it, and the musician has to prove that whatever it was
he played was written before 1923. If that doesn't take the cake, I don't
know what does. But, apparently, everyone on this forum sees nothing wrong
with that, or they keep telling me that I aqm wrong. But the laws are right
there on the books. Research it yourself. And, Blake's group is no longer
performing once a month at the Pizza house.

You are supposed to be innocent in this country unless and untiul someone
proves you guilty. But with the copyright laws, this is not the case. These
people can sue you, and they don't have to prove that you were playing music
written after 1923. You have to prove that you weren't. Isn't that kind of
like the police arresting you for murder, and they don't need any evidence
that you committed the crime. YOU have to come up with the evidence that you
didn't, or you will lose the case.



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Bill Graham wrote:

No. YOU are tired of hearing about it. I was answering others who are still
talking about it. When they stop, then I will stop. Until then, I am free to
answer any and all comments about it, regardless of how tired you are.


So, you want to keep talking about it, but you don't want to do anything
about it?

This is what we mean by "whining."
--scott

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Bill Graham wrote:

I am not, "uninterested" in the facts. I just don't like the facts. And,
unlike a hell of a lot of other people, I am willing to say so. I don't
believe that everything the government does, or all the laws they make, are
"A" ok.


But you're totally ignorant of the facts. First you're blaming BMI,
now you're blaming the government. But you aren't willing to actually
talk to any of the people involved, for fear you might be wrong.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 5/27/2011 4:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.

Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott


Bill,
you are probably an intelligent person and
even a logical person but you are doing a
downright terrible job of selling your case!

Now, I'm not a musician nor have I been doing
any sound work for several years, so I don't
have a dog in your fight.

That said, it seems the charges for and enforcement
of performances are seemingly both arbitrary and
non-uniformly enforced.

Thus: [en absurdum] can I sing in the shower
....if it can be heard in the business next door?
Can I sing in public, walking down the street?
Can I sing in a (public) park? Can I play my guitar
in the park? How about in a parking lot? What if a
friend (or friends) join(s) me? How close is my
arrangement to being a derivative work, and who
decides? What is the royalty value of said performance,
along with why and who decides. What is the current
value of the catalog from which the performance is derived?

OK Bill, maybe you want to expand on some of those
points.

[Note: I never said nineteen-twenty-whatever ... etc.]


Later...
Ron Capik
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Bill, I give you permission to perform in public anything I have
written before 1951. If ASCAP or BMI hassles you, tell them I said it
was ok.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://www.liondogmusic.com
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

No. YOU are tired of hearing about it. I was answering others who
are still talking about it. When they stop, then I will stop. Until
then, I am free to answer any and all comments about it, regardless
of how tired you are.


So, you want to keep talking about it, but you don't want to do
anything about it?

This is what we mean by "whining."
--scott


Beats what you do.... Which is absolutely NOTHING! At least I voice a
complaint. I can't storm the Bastiulle. but I can bring to the minds of
those who can what's wrong with the society. The SS administration cheats
everyone out of exactly one social security check. The one due them the
month after the month they retire. The insurance companies cheat millions of
people who own one or more vehicles than their are drivers in their
families, by writing liability insurance on the vehicles rather than the
drivers. Obama gave $4000 of my tax dollars to that bum down the block with
clunkers all over his front lawn dragging our property values down even
though I pedaled a bicycle to work for ten years. These are just a few of
the things I bitch about. But life is apparently perfect for you. Someday,
they will usher you and/or yours into a padded cell for the, "good of the
society." Perhaps that will wake you up. Untiul then, have a happy day.



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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

I am not, "uninterested" in the facts. I just don't like the facts.
And, unlike a hell of a lot of other people, I am willing to say so.
I don't believe that everything the government does, or all the laws
they make, are "A" ok.


But you're totally ignorant of the facts. First you're blaming BMI,
now you're blaming the government. But you aren't willing to actually
talk to any of the people involved, for fear you might be wrong.
--scott


How the hell do you know who I have talked to? I talk to these people all
the time. Also, I have read the copyright laws. Its you who are wrong. You
can't perform any songs written after 1923, in any place that takes in any
money, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that anything you perform
was written before then. That is a fact. They could legally bust us for
playing dances at the local senior center because they have a little store
there that sells coffee and cookies. Its you that are turning your back on
an injustice. Wake up and read the facts.

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Ron Capik wrote:
On 5/27/2011 4:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.

Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott


Bill,
you are probably an intelligent person and
even a logical person but you are doing a
downright terrible job of selling your case!

Now, I'm not a musician nor have I been doing
any sound work for several years, so I don't
have a dog in your fight.

That said, it seems the charges for and enforcement
of performances are seemingly both arbitrary and
non-uniformly enforced.

Thus: [en absurdum] can I sing in the shower
...if it can be heard in the business next door?
Can I sing in public, walking down the street?
Can I sing in a (public) park? Can I play my guitar
in the park? How about in a parking lot? What if a
friend (or friends) join(s) me? How close is my
arrangement to being a derivative work, and who
decides? What is the royalty value of said performance,
along with why and who decides. What is the current
value of the catalog from which the performance is derived?

OK Bill, maybe you want to expand on some of those
points.

[Note: I never said nineteen-twenty-whatever ... etc.]


Later...
Ron Capik


You can play anyplace if you only ask for donations. But if they have to pay
to get in, or pay to buy anything to eat or drink while they listen to you
play, then no. You can't play anything written after 1923, and the burden of
proof is on you to prove that it was written before then. This is a fact.
The musicians of the world better start buying up old sheet music in the
second hand stores, or BMI will buy it and burn it so it can't be used for
proof that songs were written before 1923. As this evidence disappears, all
the musicians in the world will be stiffled forever.

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Les Cargill wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:
On 5/27/2011 4:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars
a year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.

Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott


Bill,
you are probably an intelligent person and
even a logical person but you are doing a
downright terrible job of selling your case!

Now, I'm not a musician nor have I been doing
any sound work for several years, so I don't
have a dog in your fight.

That said, it seems the charges for and enforcement
of performances are seemingly both arbitrary and
non-uniformly enforced.

Thus: [en absurdum] can I sing in the shower
...if it can be heard in the business next door?
Can I sing in public, walking down the street?
Can I sing in a (public) park? Can I play my guitar
in the park? How about in a parking lot? What if a
friend (or friends) join(s) me? How close is my
arrangement to being a derivative work, and who
decides? What is the royalty value of said performance,
along with why and who decides. What is the current
value of the catalog from which the performance is derived?

OK Bill, maybe you want to expand on some of those
points.

[Note: I never said nineteen-twenty-whatever ... etc.]


Later...
Ron Capik
--



Perhaps Bill should be awarded the Grand Galactic Inquisitor Award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8


I wonder if, when you guys reach 65, (or 62) and start collecting Social
Security, whether you will notice that the government cheats you out of the
check following the month you retire. that will probably be around $1500 or
more. I figure that they cheat the geezers out of over 2.5 Billion dollars a
year that way. But you really aren't interested, are you?

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Les Cargill wrote:

Perhaps Bill should be awarded the Grand Galactic Inquisitor Award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8


The sound on that cartoon clip is so distorted, I can't even understand
it.......

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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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On Fri, 27 May 2011 20:27:42 -0700, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Les Cargill wrote:

Perhaps Bill should be awarded the Grand Galactic Inquisitor Award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8


The sound on that cartoon clip is so distorted, I can't even understand
it.......


It was fine for me.

d


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Ron Capik wrote:
On 5/27/2011 4:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars a
year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.

Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott


Bill,
you are probably an intelligent person and
even a logical person but you are doing a
downright terrible job of selling your case!

Now, I'm not a musician nor have I been doing
any sound work for several years, so I don't
have a dog in your fight.

That said, it seems the charges for and enforcement
of performances are seemingly both arbitrary and
non-uniformly enforced.

Thus: [en absurdum] can I sing in the shower
...if it can be heard in the business next door?
Can I sing in public, walking down the street?
Can I sing in a (public) park? Can I play my guitar
in the park? How about in a parking lot? What if a
friend (or friends) join(s) me? How close is my
arrangement to being a derivative work, and who
decides? What is the royalty value of said performance,
along with why and who decides. What is the current
value of the catalog from which the performance is derived?

OK Bill, maybe you want to expand on some of those
points.

[Note: I never said nineteen-twenty-whatever ... etc.]


Later...
Ron Capik
--



Perhaps Bill should be awarded the Grand Galactic Inquisitor Award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8

--
Les Cargill

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Bill Graham wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

No. YOU are tired of hearing about it. I was answering others who
are still talking about it. When they stop, then I will stop. Until
then, I am free to answer any and all comments about it, regardless
of how tired you are.


So, you want to keep talking about it, but you don't want to do
anything about it?

This is what we mean by "whining."
--scott


Beats what you do....


You have no ****ing idea what Scott does. None at all. Hint: it includes
engineering that is out of your league. In more than one area.

Which is absolutely NOTHING! At least I voice a
complaint.


You whine your ass off probably because you can't get your head out of
it. Scott understands the issues and the players. He knows the facts of
the matter of which you ignorantly whine.

At least you whine. I'll give you that.

I'm starting to think the pizza joint uses the lack of a license to keep
you from driving away the customers. If you play like you think the
music would suck so badly you'd clear the restaurant in a flash.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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Bill Graham wrote:

Les Cargill wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:
On 5/27/2011 4:41 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
I do perform it for free. And, I don't mind paying for the sheet
music, or for CD's of the music. but when the BMI police tell the
Pizza store owner (or whoever) that they have to pay $1000 dollars
a year because he is using their music to draw customers into his
establishment and we are playing there for free, so he has little
choice but to stop us, then I object to that.

Then, do something about it.
We're tired of hearing about it.
--scott

Bill,
you are probably an intelligent person and
even a logical person but you are doing a
downright terrible job of selling your case!

Now, I'm not a musician nor have I been doing
any sound work for several years, so I don't
have a dog in your fight.

That said, it seems the charges for and enforcement
of performances are seemingly both arbitrary and
non-uniformly enforced.

Thus: [en absurdum] can I sing in the shower
...if it can be heard in the business next door?
Can I sing in public, walking down the street?
Can I sing in a (public) park? Can I play my guitar
in the park? How about in a parking lot? What if a
friend (or friends) join(s) me? How close is my
arrangement to being a derivative work, and who
decides? What is the royalty value of said performance,
along with why and who decides. What is the current
value of the catalog from which the performance is derived?

OK Bill, maybe you want to expand on some of those
points.

[Note: I never said nineteen-twenty-whatever ... etc.]


Later...
Ron Capik
--



Perhaps Bill should be awarded the Grand Galactic Inquisitor Award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGbPs5y3oz8


I wonder if, when you guys reach 65, (or 62) and start collecting Social
Security, whether you will notice that the government cheats you out of the
check following the month you retire. that will probably be around $1500 or
more. I figure that they cheat the geezers out of over 2.5 Billion dollars a
year that way. But you really aren't interested, are you?


I'll be 67 in the fall. You're a ****ing idiot.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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Richard Webb[_3_] Richard Webb[_3_] is offline
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Scott Dorsey writes:
snip

But you're totally ignorant of the facts. First you're blaming BMI,
now you're blaming the government. But you aren't willing to
actually talk to any of the people involved, for fear you might be
wrong.


YOu're right on that one Scott. Bill, many of us here who
make all or part of our living in the business have been
trying to help you out here, but you keep running around in
the same stupid circle.
DOn't hit your reply button just yet, and pay close
attention please.

Haven't you ever wondered why when you call one of those
places and they put you on hold you get music you don't
recognize between the little canned announcements exhorting
you to check out their special on tires or that you've moved up to caller number 4? That's because the folks whom the
rights owners have asked to be their agents are aggressive
about collecting what is due the rights owners. I've
composed music and done the voices for music on hold systems over the years.

Everybody pays for rights. If the concourse at the airport
has Muzak (tm) or any other canned music service, then part
of their fees for that service goes to Ascap or BMI. Places that rent jukeboxes also can have their fees folded in with
the juke box rental, so long as they don't host live music
or have any other source of music than the box. the rights
owners, many who are just workin' folks like you were back
in the day are agressive about collecting what's due them,
and you would be too I'm sure. THere are ways to solve the
problem, if you or the pizza parlor guy are interested.

The copyright laws of course are the balewick of government, but whatever those laws are rights owners must depend on
agencies such as ascap and bmi to collect for them.
oTherwise they'd collect nothing at all, but I guess your
libertarian principles say it's okay to steal intellectual
property. it figures from waht I've seen of you here Bill.
You've told many songwriters and those of us who earn our
daily bread thanks to songwriters that you think you ought
to be able to blatantly rip them off. YEt you wonder why
you don't get any respect here.


Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Bill Graham wrote:

Beats what you do.... Which is absolutely NOTHING! At least I voice a
complaint.


I've listed what you can do. It begins with calling the store owner
and then talking to BMI. It will take an afternoon of work and then
you'll be able to play. But you don't actually want to play, you'd
rather whine and beat your fists on the floor about how big bad government
is out to get you.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Bill Graham wrote:

How the hell do you know who I have talked to? I talk to these people all
the time.


And what was the name of the rep they talked to? And what precisely
did the rep say? Hint: what the rep said was not what they think.

Also, I have read the copyright laws. Its you who are wrong. You
can't perform any songs written after 1923, in any place that takes in any
money, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that anything you perform
was written before then. That is a fact.


Sure you can, you just need permission from the rights holder, which is
cheap and easy to get. The purpose of BMI is to make it easier to get.
If you'd rather contact them directly, that's fine too.

The rule is: you need permission to use copyrighted material. This is
not some huge barrier like you seem to think.

They could legally bust us for
playing dances at the local senior center because they have a little store
there that sells coffee and cookies. Its you that are turning your back on
an injustice. Wake up and read the facts.


They can bust you if you don't get permission. So get it. You do a web
search, you write a letter, you get a letter back. Or you pay a performance
fee to BMI or Ascap which will amount to a couple bucks; usually when it's
that little money they'll just hand you a contract for free.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

Beats what you do.... Which is absolutely NOTHING! At least I voice a
complaint.


I've listed what you can do. It begins with calling the store owner
and then talking to BMI. It will take an afternoon of work and then
you'll be able to play. But you don't actually want to play, you'd
rather whine and beat your fists on the floor about how big bad
government is out to get you.
--scott


I didn't play in the dixieland band at the Pizza joint. My friend Blake did.
I play at the two senior centers. We play dance music from the 20's thru
60's. They sell cookies and coffee at one of the centers, so its only a
question of time before the BMI brownshirts drag us, kicking and screaming,
off to the concentration camp......

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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:

How the hell do you know who I have talked to? I talk to these
people all the time.


And what was the name of the rep they talked to? And what precisely
did the rep say? Hint: what the rep said was not what they think.

Also, I have read the copyright laws. Its you who are wrong. You
can't perform any songs written after 1923, in any place that takes
in any money, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that
anything you perform was written before then. That is a fact.


Sure you can, you just need permission from the rights holder, which
is cheap and easy to get. The purpose of BMI is to make it easier to
get.
If you'd rather contact them directly, that's fine too.

The rule is: you need permission to use copyrighted material. This is
not some huge barrier like you seem to think.

They could legally bust us for
playing dances at the local senior center because they have a little
store there that sells coffee and cookies. Its you that are turning
your back on an injustice. Wake up and read the facts.


They can bust you if you don't get permission. So get it. You do a
web search, you write a letter, you get a letter back. Or you pay a
performance fee to BMI or Ascap which will amount to a couple bucks;
usually when it's that little money they'll just hand you a contract
for free. --scott


It's the general principal that I am objecting to. It inhibits my sense of
freedom to sing/play the songs of my youth. I bought the records and saw the
shows on Broadway (I was born and raised in NYC) many years ago. The
writers/composers and their producers have already gotten their fee from me.
Now, I expect to be left alone to play what I please. I buy sheet music. It
is frequently in the wrong key for our band. (we play in concert Eb, Bb, F,
G, & C. If I input it into my computer after I buy it, so I can change the
key, I am breaking the copyright laws! This is another stupidity in the law.
(Which I am sure you will jump to defend)

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On May 28, 9:46*pm, "Little Willie" crapped:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


How the hell do you know who I have talked to? I talk to these
people all the time.


And what was the name of the rep they talked to? *And what precisely
did the rep say? *Hint: what the rep said was not what they think.


Also, I have read the copyright laws. Its you who are wrong. You
can't perform any songs written after 1923, in any place that takes
in any money, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that
anything you perform was written before then. That is a fact.


Sure you can, you just need permission from the rights holder, which
is cheap and easy to get. *The purpose of BMI is to make it easier to
get.
If you'd rather contact them directly, that's fine too.


The rule is: you need permission to use copyrighted material. *This is
not some huge barrier like you seem to think.


They could legally bust us for
playing dances at the local senior center because they have a little
store there that sells coffee and cookies. *Its you that are turning
your back on an injustice. Wake up and read the facts.


They can bust you if you don't get permission. *So get it. *You do a
web search, you write a letter, you get a letter back. *Or you pay a
performance fee to BMI or Ascap which will amount to a couple bucks;
usually when it's that little money they'll just hand you a contract
for free. --scott


It's the general principal that I am objecting to. It inhibits my sense of
freedom to sing/play the songs of my youth. I bought the records and saw the
shows on Broadway (I was born and raised in NYC) many years ago. The
writers/composers and their producers have already gotten their fee from me.
Now, I expect to be left alone to play what I please. I buy sheet music. It
is frequently in the wrong key for our band. (we play in concert Eb, Bb, F,
G, & C. If I input it into my computer after I buy it, so I can change the
key, I am breaking the copyright laws! This is another stupidity in the law.
(Which I am sure you will jump to defend)


It's hard to believe so much ****e could come out of one dog!

When you bought the sheet music, you didn't pay the perfomance
fee. You can pretend you did. You can make up any fantasy world
you like. Nobody else, especially songwriters, has to live in your
fantasy world. Nobody has to abide by the rules that come out
of your asshole.

You whine a lot, but so much of what you're whining about is
simply bull**** that you made up. If you could just get yourself
off Wille Bizarro World, you might be happier. Most of what you're
whining and crying about would go away if you'd come back to
the real world. But then, whining and throwing temper tantrums
is all you're good for. Lazy worthless leech, wanting other people's
work to be handed to you for free, just because you're much of
a moronic asshole. Curl up and die, Little Willie.

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On May 28, 9:32*pm, "Little Willie" blurted:
question of time before the BMI brownshirts drag us, kicking and screaming,
off to the concentration camp......


Godwin, meet Little Willie Numpty, the whining crybaby.
Kicking and screaming seems to be what he lives for..





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Bill, the reason no one here can further work with you on this is
simply that you have 75% of your "facts" wrong, so it's a dead end.
The pizza guy is lying to your friend, or he is being misunderstood.
Your friend is giving you way wrong information regarding the way BMI
works, or maybe he is giving you a good explanation and you're not
accepting the info properly. Whatever the reason, until you stop
insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the moon is made of green cheese not
only will you get no help here but no one will take you seriously.

And where has Arny disappeared to? : )

I was looking forward to a Behringer/Peavey thread!
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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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vdubreeze wrote:
Bill, the reason no one here can further work with you on this is
simply that you have 75% of your "facts" wrong, so it's a dead end.
The pizza guy is lying to your friend, or he is being misunderstood.
Your friend is giving you way wrong information regarding the way BMI
works, or maybe he is giving you a good explanation and you're not
accepting the info properly. Whatever the reason, until you stop
insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the moon is made of green cheese not
only will you get no help here but no one will take you seriously.


Perhaps so. Here is a URL of some interesting music copyright legal cases.
They neither reinforce my perspective nor yours, but they illustrate some of
the nuances in the law:
http://www.rbs2.com/copyrm.pdf

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On May 29, 6:40*pm, "Bill Graham" wrote:
vdubreeze wrote:
Bill, the reason no one here can further work with you on this is
simply that you have 75% of your "facts" wrong, so it's a dead end.
The pizza guy is lying to your friend, or he is being misunderstood.
Your friend is giving you way wrong information regarding the way BMI
works, or maybe he is giving you a good explanation and you're not
accepting the info properly. *Whatever the reason, until you stop
insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the moon is made of green cheese not
only will you get no help here but no one will take you seriously.


Perhaps so. Here is a URL of some interesting music copyright legal cases..
They neither reinforce my perspective nor yours,


You should read the article more carefully. It clearly
reinforces the perspectivse of vdubreeze, and everyone
else who has stated that you have your facts wrong.
There are numerous statements in the article that
directly contradict your hallucinations and bizarre fake
copyright information.

For instance, the duration of copyrights, the role of
BMI, and whether purchase of the sheet music entitles
you to perform a copyrighted work for the customers
at a commercial establishment. For starters.

You should read and understand this article. It would
be a good first step at correcting your gross misunderstanding
of copyrights and performance rights. But somehow I suspect
that you'll just keep kicking and screaming, because you
obviously prefer whining to understanding and resolving the
issues about which you whine.
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On 5/29/2011 7:31 PM, timewarp2008 wrote:
On May 29, 6:40 pm, "Bill wrote:
vdubreeze wrote:
Bill, the reason no one here can further work with you on this is
simply that you have 75% of your "facts" wrong, so it's a dead end.
The pizza guy is lying to your friend, or he is being misunderstood.
Your friend is giving you way wrong information regarding the way BMI
works, or maybe he is giving you a good explanation and you're not
accepting the info properly. Whatever the reason, until you stop
insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the moon is made of green cheese not
only will you get no help here but no one will take you seriously.


Perhaps so. Here is a URL of some interesting music copyright legal cases.
They neither reinforce my perspective nor yours,


You should read the article more carefully. It clearly
reinforces the perspectivse of vdubreeze, and everyone
else who has stated that you have your facts wrong.
There are numerous statements in the article that
directly contradict your hallucinations and bizarre fake
copyright information.

For instance, the duration of copyrights, the role of
BMI, and whether purchase of the sheet music entitles
you to perform a copyrighted work for the customers
at a commercial establishment. For starters.

You should read and understand this article. It would
be a good first step at correcting your gross misunderstanding
of copyrights and performance rights. But somehow I suspect
that you'll just keep kicking and screaming, because you
obviously prefer whining to understanding and resolving the
issues about which you whine.


I await Mr. Graham quoting Dickens per;
Mr. Bumble: "If the law supposes that,
then the law is a ass, a idiot! [...]"
==

It seems that international law does complicate
matters in that the US government has been served
notice of violation of the Berne Convention because
of the *Fairness in Music Licensing Act of 1998*
allowing some "businesses" to play the radio without
the need for a license. [Yes, over simplified.]
==

The law always lags cultural and technological
advancements. Value of and compensation for
intellectual property in arts and entertainment
is one heck of a complex mess.
==
....enough said, for now.


Later...
Ron Capik
--
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