[abbeynormal]

sorry for the length of this post, but i was reading other posters'
comments about phonographic disc reproduction of music, and how some
of them insisted that noise and distortion could be salient features
while others contested this assertion. i won't enter that controversy
but i have to ask readers out there if they are familiar with the sony
columbia 1999 CD reissue of Benny Goodman and his Allstars 1938
Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert? this Phil Schapp-produced 2-CD set
purportedly offered the complete "real-time" concert recording for the
first time ever, but also quite regrettably left in ALL the noise,
with no attempts made at any kind of crackle reduction, in the theory
that any professional noise reduction techniques [as of 1999] were
simply not up to the task of tamping back the surface noise without
also tamping back the music.
i am not an audio professional so i can't vouch for the truthiness of
that philosophy, but i can say as a music lover that the loud and
persistent "bacon-frying" crackling noise seriously obscured my
perception of the inner voices of the music, in a similar manner as
how automobile windwshield glare keeps me from seeing the road ahead
unless i wear polarized sunglasses. so after one tiring and
unsatisfactory listen, i determined that i would try to get rid of
this horrible crackling noise and then listen anew to the program. so
to test Phil Schaap's assertion that no noise reduction system could
do a better job than one's own hearing mechanism, i tried feeding the
CD audio through a CEDAR DC-1 Declicker, to see if that could quiet
the crackling, and quickly found that the CEDAR unit made mincemeat
out of the brasses, especially the trombones, turning brass into
cardboard. so i quit the CEDAR and put the music on the hard drive
and went to work on it using Virtos Noise Wizard NR tools, just the
declicker set to 2-3ms @ 15% processing depth, made a noise-inversion
then filtered that @24 db/oct below 3k [thereby sparing most of the
music from posibly being adversely affected by processing], then
invert-paste-mixed that back in to the original soundfile, and found
90% or so of the crackling was gone, with no audible change to the
timbres and metallic sheen of the brasses and the shiny metallic edge
to gene krupa's drumkit. to deal with the remaining crackles, i
reversed the soundfile and repeated the operation. the result was
totally clean of crackle, which for ther first time truly exposed just
how deteriorated the original transcription discs were, with much
scuffing and rumble and groove roar and a stentorian hiss everpresent
on the portions which were obviously from 2nd generation disc dubs.
but it was still sufficient for me to hear for the first time, subtle
details of gene krupa's marvelous drumming, including his subtle wire
brush work on the cymbals and snare drum, details that i simply could
not readily hear above the rushing crackle.
incidentally, this record should be in the dictionary as the
definitive description of swing jazz. it truly rocks. gosh, what that
Carnegie Hall concert audience must've heard that january 1938 night.
i'd really be thankful to hear from anybody else with this particular
CD album who also had issues with hearing the music under the
crackling.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:58:05 -0700, abbeynormal wrote
(in article ):

sorry for the length of this post, but i was reading other posters'
comments about phonographic disc reproduction of music, and how some
of them insisted that noise and distortion could be salient features
while others contested this assertion. i won't enter that controversy
but i have to ask readers out there if they are familiar with the sony
columbia 1999 CD reissue of Benny Goodman and his Allstars 1938
Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert? this Phil Schapp-produced 2-CD set
purportedly offered the complete "real-time" concert recording for the
first time ever, but also quite regrettably left in ALL the noise,
with no attempts made at any kind of crackle reduction, in the theory
that any professional noise reduction techniques [as of 1999] were
simply not up to the task of tamping back the surface noise without
also tamping back the music.
i am not an audio professional so i can't vouch for the truthiness of
that philosophy, but i can say as a music lover that the loud and
persistent "bacon-frying" crackling noise seriously obscured my
perception of the inner voices of the music, in a similar manner as
how automobile windwshield glare keeps me from seeing the road ahead
unless i wear polarized sunglasses. so after one tiring and
unsatisfactory listen, i determined that i would try to get rid of
this horrible crackling noise and then listen anew to the program. so
to test Phil Schaap's assertion that no noise reduction system could
do a better job than one's own hearing mechanism, i tried feeding the
CD audio through a CEDAR DC-1 Declicker, to see if that could quiet
the crackling, and quickly found that the CEDAR unit made mincemeat
out of the brasses, especially the trombones, turning brass into
cardboard. so i quit the CEDAR and put the music on the hard drive
and went to work on it using Virtos Noise Wizard NR tools, just the
declicker set to 2-3ms @ 15% processing depth, made a noise-inversion
then filtered that @24 db/oct below 3k [thereby sparing most of the
music from posibly being adversely affected by processing], then
invert-paste-mixed that back in to the original soundfile, and found
90% or so of the crackling was gone, with no audible change to the
timbres and metallic sheen of the brasses and the shiny metallic edge
to gene krupa's drumkit. to deal with the remaining crackles, i
reversed the soundfile and repeated the operation. the result was
totally clean of crackle, which for ther first time truly exposed just
how deteriorated the original transcription discs were, with much
scuffing and rumble and groove roar and a stentorian hiss everpresent
on the portions which were obviously from 2nd generation disc dubs.
but it was still sufficient for me to hear for the first time, subtle
details of gene krupa's marvelous drumming, including his subtle wire
brush work on the cymbals and snare drum, details that i simply could
not readily hear above the rushing crackle.
incidentally, this record should be in the dictionary as the
definitive description of swing jazz. it truly rocks. gosh, what that
Carnegie Hall concert audience must've heard that january 1938 night.
i'd really be thankful to hear from anybody else with this particular
CD album who also had issues with hearing the music under the
crackling.


For what it's worth, my take on this is basically two-fold. First, of all,
not all 30's-40's transcriptions are noisy like the Goodman Carnegie Hall
Concert. I have a few Arturo Toscanini and the NBC Symphony transcriptions
from the late 30's and early 40's that were transferred to LP by RCA Victor
through the years and they are dead quiet. In fact, some of them are so good
that you would swear that they were recorded live to (mono) tape in the early
1950's. The fact that the Goodman concert hasn't held up as well, is more of
a testimony to the fragility of these transcription recordings and they way
that these particular ones were stored and handled than to the process
itself.

Secondly, modern noise-reduction methods, such as digital auto-correlation to
remove hiss without affecting the program material, works quite well, BUT
(there's always a "but") like any other signal processing, the more you apply
it the less transparent it is and the more artifacts you are going to hear.
Some CD and SACD transfers of older analog recordings from the 50's and 60's,
for instance, use digital auto-correlation methods to remove tape hiss. Since
the hiss is constant, and probably more than 55 dB down, the auto-correlation
can applied very judiciously and can't be heard. But if the noise were
louder, like 35 to 45 dB down, this same digital auto-correlation methodology
probably cannot be applied as it would be very audible and those artifacts
are likely just as annoying (or perhaps more-so) than the noise we're trying
to suppress.

IOW, it was a judgement call on the part of the part of Sony to leave it be
and not try to doctor it up. Another possibility is that the actual
transcription is much worse than the final CD and that what you are hearing
is the product of all the signal processing that they DARE to apply to it! I
can't speak to that.

Here's what you might try if you are so inclined. It's a lot of work, but it
might yield a better result IF YOU ARE SO INCLINED TO TAKE THE TIME.

Download a freeware program for your particular computer operating system
called "Audacity". It is available for Mac, Windows and Linux

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Now open Audacity and import the Goodman file into it (you say that you have
already ripped it to your hard drive). You will see a timeline appear with
the entire CD waveform displayed on it. You can expand the waveform by
"zooming-in" on it and you can really get close. Scroll through the
performance and every time you see a spike that looks like a crackle or a
scratch (you can place the program's cursor to just before the suspected
spike and hit play and listen to it to be sure that it is actually noise, and
then, using Audacity's editing tools, simply remove it. Be sure to cut in
really close on each side of the anomaly to avoid taking any music with it.
This will be tedious and time consuming, but I've done this with a less than
pristine copy of the world premiere recording of Holst' "The Planets" With
the composer himself, conducting in the early 1930's on 78's. The results
amazed me as I hadn't expected it work as well as it did. It's still not
perfect, but it's certainly much better than it was before I started the
process. Audacity has a number of "Effects" filters that you might try as
well. One removes noise and the other removes clicks. You might try using the
manual method to remove the worst of the pops and clicks and then run it
through the hiss and click filter on a second pass - just don't expect
miracles from these. There are plenty of Audacity tutorials on line to step
you through the program.

[abbeynormal]

On Sep 16, 12:42=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:58:05 -0700, abbeynormal wrote
(in article ):





i was reading other posters'
comments about phonographic disc reproduction of music, and how some
of them insisted that noise and distortion could be salient features
while others contested this assertion. =A0i won't enter that controvers=
y
but i have to ask readers out there if they are familiar with the sony
columbia 1999 CD reissue of Benny Goodman and his Allstars 1938
Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert? =A0this Phil Schapp-produced 2-CD set
purportedly offered the complete "real-time" concert recording for the
first time ever, but also quite regrettably left in ALL the noise,
with no attempts made at any kind of crackle reduction, in the theory
that any professional noise reduction techniques [as of 1999] were
simply not up to the task of tamping back the surface noise without
also tamping back the music.


For what it's worth, my take on this is basically two-fold. First, of all=
,
not all 30's-40's transcriptions are noisy like the Goodman Carnegie Hall
Concert. =A0I have a few Arturo Toscanini and the NBC Symphony transcript=
ions
from the late 30's and early 40's that were transferred to LP by RCA Vict=
or
through the years and they are dead quiet. In fact, some of them are so g=
ood
that you would swear that they were recorded live to (mono) tape in the e=
arly
1950's. The fact that the Goodman concert hasn't held up as well, is more=
of
a testimony to the fragility of these transcription recordings and they w=
ay =A0
that these particular ones were stored and handled than to the process
itself.

Secondly, modern noise-reduction methods, such as digital auto-correlatio=
n to
remove hiss without affecting the program material, works quite well, BUT
(there's always a "but") like any other signal processing, the more you a=
pply
it the less transparent it is and the more artifacts you are going to hea=
r.

[abbeynormal]

On Sep 16, 12:42=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:58:05 -0700, abbeynormal wrote
(in article ):





i was reading other posters'
comments about phonographic disc reproduction of music, and how some
of them insisted that noise and distortion could be salient features
while others contested this assertion. =A0i won't enter that controvers=
y
but i have to ask readers out there if they are familiar with the sony
columbia 1999 CD reissue of Benny Goodman and his Allstars 1938
Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert? =A0this Phil Schapp-produced 2-CD set
purportedly offered the complete "real-time" concert recording for the
first time ever, but also quite regrettably left in ALL the noise,
with no attempts made at any kind of crackle reduction, in the theory
that any professional noise reduction techniques [as of 1999] were
simply not up to the task of tamping back the surface noise without
also tamping back the music.


For what it's worth, my take on this is basically two-fold. First, of all=
,
not all 30's-40's transcriptions are noisy like the Goodman Carnegie Hall
Concert. =A0I have a few Arturo Toscanini and the NBC Symphony transcript=
ions
from the late 30's and early 40's that were transferred to LP by RCA Vict=
or
through the years and they are dead quiet. In fact, some of them are so g=
ood
that you would swear that they were recorded live to (mono) tape in the e=
arly
1950's. The fact that the Goodman concert hasn't held up as well, is more=
of
a testimony to the fragility of these transcription recordings and they w=
ay =A0
that these particular ones were stored and handled than to the process
itself.

Secondly, modern noise-reduction methods, such as digital auto-correlatio=
n to
remove hiss without affecting the program material, works quite well, BUT
(there's always a "but") like any other signal processing, the more you a=
pply
it the less transparent it is and the more artifacts you are going to hea=
r.

[Esmond Pitt[_2_]]

On 17/09/2010 1:58 AM, abbeynormal wrote:
i have to ask readers out there if they are familiar with the sony
columbia 1999 CD reissue of Benny Goodman and his Allstars 1938
Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert? this Phil Schapp-produced 2-CD set

All these are based on Benny Goodman's own copy, which he basically
trashed over many years just playing them. Hence the surface noise etc.

Curiously enough there is another, probably virgin, set in the Library
of Congress, but Sony never seem to have twigged, even though it's
mentioned in the standard biographies.