[wlexxx]

patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

i've noticed that, in 'thru mode', for each 'module', it

a. connects ground from front to back [which is good] but

b. also connects grounds from top to bottom [which isn;t, for what i
want to do - i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]

are there any patchbays that do this right [ie, top and bottom grounds
not connected to each other in thru mode]?

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

thx
wle.

[gareth magennis]

"wlexxx" wrote in message
...
patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

i've noticed that, in 'thru mode', for each 'module', it

a. connects ground from front to back [which is good] but

b. also connects grounds from top to bottom [which isn;t, for what i
want to do - i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]

are there any patchbays that do this right [ie, top and bottom grounds
not connected to each other in thru mode]?

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

thx
wle.



I wouldn't dream of putting speakers and amplifiers anywhere near a
patchbay. The potential for catastrophic events are just too huge. Not to
mention the crosstalk ......




Gareth.

[wlexxx]

On Oct 21, 1:54*pm, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote:
"wlexxx" wrote in message

...



patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

i've noticed that, in 'thru mode', for each 'module', it

a. connects ground from front to back [which is good] but

b. also connects grounds from top to bottom [which isn;t, for what i
want to do - i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]

are there any patchbays that do this right [ie, top and bottom grounds
not connected to each other in thru mode]?

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

thx
wle.

I wouldn't dream of putting speakers and amplifiers anywhere near a
patchbay. *The potential for catastrophic events are just too huge. *Not to
mention the crosstalk ......

Gareth.


i may end up taking them out or putting them on a separate bay

wle.

[Scott Dorsey]

wlexxx wrote:
patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

i've noticed that, in 'thru mode', for each 'module', it

a. connects ground from front to back [which is good] but

b. also connects grounds from top to bottom [which isn;t, for what i
want to do - i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]

This is good or bad, depending.

are there any patchbays that do this right [ie, top and bottom grounds
not connected to each other in thru mode]?

A regular wired patchbay will allow you to add or remove soldered jumpers
to configure this as you like.

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

This seems silly. How often are you going to change it?

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

There are several ways to configure grounds in patchbays. Remember, the
rule is that everything needs to have one and only one path to the grounds
on everything else. There are a lot of different ways to achieve this,
including star grounds, ground busses, etc. It doesn't really matter how
you do it as long as you do it one consistent way.

Regular solder-type patch bays allow you to configure this stuff however
you like. The cheapo configurable ones don't really give you a lot of
options, but they are a lot cheaper and don't require any soldering to
install.

When the cheapo configurable ones were designed, nobody was thinking about
doing things like running line and speaker level connections through the
same patchbay. If you want to do that, you might want to consider a
seperate bay for the line signals, hopefully something with a lot more
contact area than a 1/4" phone plug.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

wlexxx wrote:

i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay

I personally would not do that, unless I used a separate bay totally
isolated from the rest of the signals.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Eeyore]

wlexxx wrote:

patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

i've noticed that, in 'thru mode', for each 'module', it

a. connects ground from front to back [which is good] but

b. also connects grounds from top to bottom [which isn;t, for what i
want to do - i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]

are there any patchbays that do this right [ie, top and bottom grounds
not connected to each other in thru mode]?

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

REAL patchbays can have isolated sockets but I question your patching of
speakers through one. Can't you do what you want another way ?

Graham

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:45:59 -0700 (PDT), wlexxx
wrote:

patchbays

i have one [ok it;s a behringer ultrapatch px3000]

- i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay, and
if i put something else on the other module (top or bottom) it gets
crosstalk from the power amp)]


I'm not sure it's a very good idea to run speaker lines through this
sort of unit.

[wlexxx]

i would also like to have individual mode setting for each module with
a switch [normal, half normal, thru], NOT via disassembly and turning
modules over..

This seems silly. * How often are you going to change it?


well
it;s a lab
all the time
the behringer has switches, and i have come to use it a lot

or is there some reason it does this, and i should just re-wire to
avoid this kind of issue?

There are several ways to configure grounds in patchbays. *Remember, the
rule is that everything needs to have one and only one path to the grounds
on everything else. *There are a lot of different ways to achieve this,
including star grounds, ground busses, etc. *It doesn't really matter how
you do it as long as you do it one consistent way.

plus i think speaker 'grounds' aren;t necessarily grounds, just
returns for the amp
so having them in there may always cause problems


Regular solder-type patch bays allow you to configure this stuff however
you like. *The cheapo configurable ones don't really give you a lot of
options, but they are a lot cheaper and don't require any soldering to
install.

yeah
i don;t want soldering
wle.

[wlexxx]

REAL patchbays can have isolated sockets but I question your patching of
speakers through one. Can't you do what you want another way ?

possibly though it will require wasting jacks, rewiring, and better
planning than i thought was necessary
wle.

[wlexxx]

REAL patchbays can have isolated sockets but I question your patching of
speakers through one. Can't you do what you want another way ?

Graham


each module does appear to be isolated from the others
but the grounds on top and bottom, within a single module, appear to
be connected

wle.

[wlexxx]

I'm not sure it's a very good idea to run speaker lines through this
sort of unit.

maybe not

though it;s not really high power, maybe 20 watts

wle.

[Scott Dorsey]

wlexxx wrote:

plus i think speaker 'grounds' aren;t necessarily grounds, just
returns for the amp
so having them in there may always cause problems

That depends on the amp. Some have a real reference ground, some do not.
But you can buy a Speakon patchbay... they are very common in theatre
installations where a large number of speakers may be operated by a smaller
number of amps.

Regular solder-type patch bays allow you to configure this stuff however
you like. =A0The cheapo configurable ones don't really give you a lot of
options, but they are a lot cheaper and don't require any soldering to
install.

yeah
i don;t want soldering

Soldering is good, it means you can configure the thing precisely the way
you like, and it means the connections will stay solid and nothing will
become loose. Also, of course, most of the cheapies use short-frame plugs
instead of the regular long-frame types, which means a big difference in
reliability.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2008-10-21 (hankalrich) said:
i have some power amp-speaker connections in the bay
I personally would not do that, unless I used a separate bay totally
isolated from the rest of the signals.
I"M with him. THis is a really dumb idea. FOrgive the
bluntness, or not, really doesn't make any difference to me.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--- Benjamin Franklin, NOvember 1755 from the
Historical review of Pennsylvania

[Mike Rivers]

wlexxx wrote:

i think speaker 'grounds' aren;t necessarily grounds, just
returns for the amp
so having them in there may always cause problems

So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you? If not, that could explain your crosstalk
problems, with all that current flowing through the sleeve/shield wiring
of the patchbay.

i don;t want soldering

And you don't want hard wiring. And you don't want this and that. Better
get an intern.

Actually, there are some "wired" patchbays that have solderless
connectors that work reliably, but they're frightfully expensive. Also
someone makes a patchbay that has a rotary switch to change
configurations on each jack pair. It's pretty clever in that the
switches are normally hidden behind a label strip. You pop off the strip
to expose the switches. I can't remember who makes those, but if you
look hard enough you'll find them. It's a fairly recent product.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[wlexxx]

On Oct 21, 6:38*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
wlexxx wrote:

So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you?

yes but i don;t want to make weird connectors for the speakers

i think i am just going to isolate the speakers

the 'modules' don;t have common grounds

just the top bottom front and back of a single 4 point connection
module


If not, that could explain your crosstalk
problems, with all that current flowing through the sleeve/shield wiring
of the patchbay.

i don;t want soldering

And you don't want hard wiring. And you don't want this and that. Better
get an intern.

Actually, there are some "wired" patchbays that have solderless
connectors that work reliably, but they're frightfully expensive. Also
someone makes a patchbay that has a rotary switch to change
configurations on each jack pair.

behringer, samson, at least, have individual switches

they aren;t hidden though

what i am finding out is that common-4-point ground seems to be the
normal way it;s done

a samson FAE wrote and said theirs do that too


It's pretty clever in that the
switches are normally hidden behind a label strip. You pop off the strip
to expose the switches.

wle.

[Scott Dorsey]

wlexxx wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:38=A0pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
wlexxx wrote:

So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you?

yes but i don;t want to make weird connectors for the speakers

Using 1/4" plugs for speakers isn't weird already?

someone makes a patchbay that has a rotary switch to change
configurations on each jack pair.

behringer, samson, at least, have individual switches

they aren;t hidden though

what i am finding out is that common-4-point ground seems to be the
normal way it;s done

If you look in real studios, not studios using ****ty short-frame plastic
bays, you will find that in real life it's all over the place. Some folks
run all the grounds in the bay to a common ground buss. Some folks lift
all the grounds on inputs and run them through isolated on outputs. There
are as many different ground configurations as there are studios, but they
ALL follow the rule that there is one and only one path to ground from any
piece of equipment to any others.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Adrian Tuddenham]

wlexxx wrote:

I'm not sure it's a very good idea to run speaker lines through this
sort of unit.

maybe not

though it;s not really high power, maybe 20 watts

Put each amp close to its own associated speaker so as to keep the
speaker wiring as short as possible, then run the signal to it at line
level. ...or use internally amplified speakers which have many other
advantages too.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

wlexxx wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:38 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you?

yes but i don;t want to make weird connectors for the speakers

What's weird about that? High and low on tip and ring, just like any
other audio connections. The only thing "weird" is that there's no
shield, because that's usually not used on speaker cables.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[wlexxx]

On Oct 22, 8:40*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
wlexxx wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:38 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you?
yes but i don;t want to make weird connectors for the speakers

What's weird about that? High and low on tip and ring, just like any
other audio connections. The only thing "weird" is that there's no
shield, because that's usually not used on speaker cables.


well

it might or might not work with any standard power amp using 1/4"
jacks {TS}
depends on where the jack ground happens to touch the plug barrel

wle.

[Mark]

On Oct 22, 9:13*am, wlexxx wrote:
On Oct 22, 8:40*am, Mike Rivers wrote:

wlexxx wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:38 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
So just connect your speakers with the tip and ring. You ARE using TRS
patchbays aren't you?
yes but i don;t want to make weird connectors for the speakers

What's weird about that? High and low on tip and ring, just like any
other audio connections. The only thing "weird" is that there's no
shield, because that's usually not used on speaker cables.

well

it might or might not work with any standard power amp using 1/4"
jacks {TS}
depends on where the jack ground happens to touch the plug barrel

wle.

Can you wire the speakers through the bay as BALANCED lines. Do not
connect either of the speaker signal to BAY GROUND. If the only
ground connection for the speaker signals is at the amplifier output,
then none of the large speaker currents will try to flow through your
ground system. i.e. Pretend the speakers are balanced loads
(actually they are) and wire them as balanced audio signals, the only
ground being at the amp output.

Your other danger is that you can blow out an amp if you plug or
unplug a connector and it momentarily shorts the output of your amp
while it is driving a signal.

Mark

[Mike Rivers]

wlexxx wrote:

it might or might not work with any standard power amp using 1/4"
jacks {TS}
depends on where the jack ground happens to touch the plug barrel

You wire the power amp end of the cable however it needs to be wired for
that amplifier, and you wire the plug on the end that goes to the
patchbay with the wires going to tip and ring. This is all standard
stuff. If you draw it out on paper it'll become clear to you.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Don Pearce]

Mike Rivers wrote:
wlexxx wrote:

it might or might not work with any standard power amp using 1/4"
jacks {TS}
depends on where the jack ground happens to touch the plug barrel

You wire the power amp end of the cable however it needs to be wired for
that amplifier, and you wire the plug on the end that goes to the
patchbay with the wires going to tip and ring. This is all standard
stuff. If you draw it out on paper it'll become clear to you.


And then you carefully label the cable so it doesn't get used for
anything else.

d

[[email protected]]

On 2008-10-22 said:
Mike Rivers wrote:
it might or might not work with any standard power amp using 1/4"
jacks {TS}
depends on where the jack ground happens to touch the plug barrel
You wire the power amp end of the cable however it needs to be
wired for that amplifier, and you wire the plug on the end that
goes to the patchbay with the wires going to tip and ring. This
is all standard stuff. If you draw it out on paper it'll become
clear to you.
And then you carefully label the cable so it doesn't get used for
anything else.
Agreed, but I"m still not sure that I"d want power amp to
speaker connections in a bay with regular line level audio.
A different patchbay maybe.
BUt then, I"m the guy who doesn't like running mic lines
mixed in standard bays with line level signals either.

NO matter how carefully you label the cables you might find
yourself doing something you'd rather not do. I think if I
were the op and I insisted on amp to speaker lines in a bay
I'd want a separate bay, physically separated from my
regular bays by some distance as well.


THen again, maybe that's just me, but I think I'd find
another way to do this.



Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--- Benjamin Franklin, NOvember 1755 from the
Historical review of Pennsylvania



Any IC protected by a fast acting fuse will protect the
fuse by blowing first.

[Anahata]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:51:34 -0700, Mark wrote:

Can you wire the speakers through the bay as BALANCED lines.

Mike's "tip and ring" suggestion was exactly that, unless I'm very much
mistaken.

--
Anahata
==//== 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk ==//== http://www.myspace.com/maryanahata

[Mark]

Can you wire the speakers through the bay as BALANCED lines.

Mike's "tip and ring" suggestion was exactly that, unless I'm very much
mistaken.

--
Anahata

yes, sorry for the redundancy..

Mark