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#1
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
Hello Everyone:
Here is an update on my Nakamichi BX-300. This is the same tape deck that has flickering digits in its counter and keeps resetting its counter back to "0000" AND keeps putting itself back into PLAY mode - even when there is no tape in the machine. I have solved a couple of problems but caused another. First of all, I have narrowed it down to IC701 on the counter PC board. This IC chip (microprocessor) apparently was faulty. In the Nakamichi service manual, this chip is listed as LM6416E-106 I found an LM6416E at an online parts source that caters to repair techs. There was no suffix of any kind after the "E". It is just a "regular" LM6416E. I thought this IC was the same as the faulty one in the BX-300, but it's not. FIRST THE GOOD NEWS: After I installed the new LM6416E chip, the deck no longer has flickering numbers in the counter and the deck no longer puts itself into PLAY mode, so I'm happy about that.... NOW THE BAD NEWS: THE COUNTER NO LONGER WORKS. Instead of "0000" when you first turn the deck on, you see "88_ _" (the underlines represent the two missing digits). When you press PLAY the counter DOES NOT change. When you press REW or FF, the counter briefly shows this: "8_8_" ...and then changes to this: "8_ _8" ...and DOES NOT change. Unless someone has any ideas, I am either going to have to find a parts deck to get the proper LM6416E-106 chip, or I am going to have to live without the counter. I really wouldn't bother with this deck as I have other Naks that are much nicer, but this BX-300 has great sentimental value because it was my very first piece of Nak equipment. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS HOW I CAN CORRECT THE PROBLEM - OR DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SPARE NAKAMICHI IC CHIPS? THE CHIP THAT CAME OUT OF MY BX-300 HAS THESE MARKINGS ON IT: 106 B-6368A 4F2 Thanks in advance to all who can help me with this! |
#2
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
Naive response...
Is it possible that the -106 version (if that, indeed, is what the number represents) has custom ROM that handles the counter? This is unlikely, but who knows? There's also the possibility that, in making repairs, you damaged something related to counter operation. |
#3
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
William:
Not a naive response at all! It turns out that the -106 version does seem to be a customized version of the LM6416E chip. I did some online searching, and a couple of electronics wholesalers list part number LM6416E-106 with manufacturer listed as Nakamichi. So either Nakamichi manufactured the chip themselves, or the more likely scenario is that this chip was custom manufactured for Nakamichi. Aaargh! On May 27, 12:21 pm, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: Naive response... Is it possible that the -106 version (if that, indeed, is what the number represents) has custom ROM that handles the counter? This is unlikely, but who knows? There's also the possibility that, in making repairs, you damaged something related to counter operation. |
#4
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
EADGBE wrote: William: Not a naive response at all! It turns out that the -106 version does seem to be a customized version of the LM6416E chip. I did some online searching, and a couple of electronics wholesalers list part number LM6416E-106 with manufacturer listed as Nakamichi. So either Nakamichi manufactured the chip themselves, or the more likely scenario is that this chip was custom manufactured for Nakamichi. Aaargh! On May 27, 12:21 pm, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: Naive response... Is it possible that the -106 version (if that, indeed, is what the number represents) has custom ROM that handles the counter? This is unlikely, but who knows? There's also the possibility that, in making repairs, you damaged something related to counter operation. The LM6413 is just a general purpose 4 bit microprocessor with on board ram and rom (PDF's are on line). Without the onboard rom programmed, its totally stupid with no directions to follow. Unless you find the -106 version which has the rom preprogrammed, you would need the firmware and a programmer to program a blank LM6413 (if that's even possible). http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/...datasheet.html Before you changed the chip, did you check for proper power supply rail voltage, ripple, and that any filter caps were not defective? Bob ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
Bob:
Thanks for your very informative response. It explained a lot! Yes, I did thoroughly check all power supply voltages, both at the power supply circuit and at the IC itself. I checked DC voltage and AC ripple. All numbers were stable and well within spec. Didn't check any filter capacitors, though. On May 27, 2:04 pm, Bob Urz wrote: The LM6413 is just a general purpose 4 bit microprocessor with on board ram and rom (PDF's are on line). Without the onboard rom programmed, its totally stupid with no directions to follow. Unless you find the -106 version which has the rom preprogrammed, you would need the firmware and a programmer to program a blank LM6413 (if that's even possible). http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/...6416-datasheet... Before you changed the chip, did you check for proper power supply rail voltage, ripple, and that any filter caps were not defective? Bob |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" Not a naive response at all! It turns out that the -106 version does seem to be a customized version of the LM6416E chip. I did some online searching, and a couple of electronics wholesalers list part number LM6416E-106 with manufacturer listed as Nakamichi. So either Nakamichi manufactured the chip themselves, or the more likely scenario is that this chip was custom manufactured for Nakamichi. Aaargh! ** The LM6416 is a programmable micro-computer - aka a microcontroller. Equipment makers purchase them as "blanks" and then program them with the code needed to do the task in a particular product. The code is invariably kept secret - so only the equipment maker can supply spare ones. If the supply of spares dries up or the maker goes out of business like Naka did, there is no way to get a replacement. ....... Phil |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
I thought as much, Phil. Thanks! It's funny...I went and Googled "LM6416E-106" and there are TONS of these sitting around. Unfortunately, they are all in Hong Kong, it seems! I can get them for $10-$20 apiece plus shipping to the USA, which brings the price up to 50 or 60 bucks. I think I'll just wait and get a friend's Nak parts donor deck. His deck has a digital counter in it as well, very likely powered by the same IC. And even if it isn't, I'm sure there is something in there I can use at another time. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" wrote in message ups.com... I thought as much, Phil. Thanks! It's funny...I went and Googled "LM6416E-106" and there are TONS of these sitting around. Unfortunately, they are all in Hong Kong, it seems! I can get them for $10-$20 apiece plus shipping to the USA, which brings the price up to 50 or 60 bucks. **Good luck with that. Last timne I tried to get some oddball parts, I was presented with some company in China who ONLY wanted payment via Western Union (there's a scam right there), or they wanted minimum orders totalling US$300.00 - $500.00. I think I'll just wait and get a friend's Nak parts donor deck. His deck has a digital counter in it as well, very likely powered by the same IC. And even if it isn't, I'm sure there is something in there I can use at another time. **Depends on the deck. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" wrote in message ups.com... I thought as much, Phil. Thanks! It's funny...I went and Googled "LM6416E-106" and there are TONS of these sitting around. Unfortunately, they are all in Hong Kong, it seems! I can get them for $10-$20 apiece plus shipping to the USA, which brings the price up to 50 or 60 bucks. **Good luck with that. Last time I tried to get some oddball parts, I was presented with some company in China who ONLY wanted payment via Western Union (there's a scam right there), or they wanted minimum orders totalling US$300.00 - $500.00. I think I'll just wait and get a friend's Nak parts donor deck. His deck has a digital counter in it as well, very likely powered by the same IC. And even if it isn't, I'm sure there is something in there I can use at another time. **Depends on the deck. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
On May 27, 1:34 pm, EADGBE wrote:
Bob: Thanks for your very informative response. It explained a lot! Yes, I did thoroughly check all power supply voltages, both at the power supply circuit and at the IC itself. I checked DC voltage and AC ripple. All numbers were stable and well within spec. Didn't check any filter capacitors, though. On May 27, 2:04 pm, Bob Urz wrote: The LM6413 is just a general purpose 4 bit microprocessor with on board ram and rom (PDF's are on line). Without the onboard rom programmed, its totally stupid with no directions to follow. Unless you find the -106 version which has the rom preprogrammed, you would need the firmware and a programmer to program a blank LM6413 (if that's even possible). http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/...6416-datasheet... Before you changed the chip, did you check for proper power supply rail voltage, ripple, and that any filter caps were not defective? Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If I were you, I would put the original chip back in with the correct programming, then check ALL the input pins for glitches, especilly the ones that sense the tape movement, how does that part work, is there an optical sensor or what, check the logic signals from these sensors, maybe try a 0.1uF cap to ground on each one to remove any glitches, the switches might be dirty causing the software based counter to misbehave if it was not designed to have some debouncing feature... Mark |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
It's funny... I went and Googled "LM6416E-106" and there are
TONS of these sitting around. Unfortunately, they are all in Hong Kong, it seems! I can get them for $10-$20 apiece plus shipping to the USA, which brings the price up to 50 or 60 bucks. Why should shipping cost so much? This would be shipped as a small packet, which is only a few dollars. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
On May 28, 10:31 am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: Why should shipping cost so much? This would be shipped as a small packet, which is only a few dollars. It's how they make their money on small items, using the excuse that it's not just the postage, it's the time it takes to prepare the paperwork, pack it, put a label on it, get it to the post office, and so on. It's as bad with corporations as it is with home sellers. They have to account for every penny and every minute. Haven't you ever bought anything through eBay? A $10 item that weighs 3 ounces ships "anywhere in the US" for $7.49. You could buy it locally for $14 IF you could buy it locally. But stores ain't what they used to be and there are so many items that you can only get through mail order today. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
Mark:
Your suggestion to put the original chip back in sounds good, but I am inclined to think that the chip is indeed defective, because when I installed the "generic" LM6416E chip, two of the main problems went away: namely, 1) the problem of the deck always returning itself to PLAY mode even when no tape is inserted (this was the main problem), and 2) the constantly flickering counter digits. Even though the generic LM6416E chip could not properly count (due to lack of Nak-specific programming), the chip DID control the tape transport functions and counter display voltage perfectly. Thus, I have to conclude that the original chip is indeed bad. On May 27, 11:58 pm, Mark wrote: If I were you, I would put the original chip back in with the correct programming, then check ALL the input pins for glitches, especilly the ones that sense the tape movement, how does that part work, is there an optical sensor or what, check the logic signals from these sensors, maybe try a 0.1uF cap to ground on each one to remove any glitches, the switches might be dirty causing the software based counter to misbehave if it was not designed to have some debouncing feature... Mark |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
EADGBE wrote:
First of all, I have narrowed it down to IC701 on the counter PC board. This IC chip (microprocessor) apparently was faulty. In the Nakamichi service manual, this chip is listed as LM6416E-106 This is a microcontroller that has Nakamichi software in it. I found an LM6416E at an online parts source that caters to repair techs. There was no suffix of any kind after the "E". It is just a "regular" LM6416E. I thought this IC was the same as the faulty one in the BX-300, but it's not. It has different software in it. Unless someone has any ideas, I am either going to have to find a parts deck to get the proper LM6416E-106 chip, or I am going to have to live without the counter. The counters on these decks aren't really very accurate anyway, to be honest. I really wouldn't bother with this deck as I have other Naks that are much nicer, but this BX-300 has great sentimental value because it was my very first piece of Nak equipment. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS HOW I CAN CORRECT THE PROBLEM - OR DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SPARE NAKAMICHI IC CHIPS? It may be possible to clone the firmware if you can borrow a good one from another machine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
On May 29, 10:56 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
It may be possible to clone the firmware if you can borrow a good one from another machine. --scott Scott: Actually, a friend has a CR3a deck that has the exact same IC chip in it. How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
A friend has a CR3A deck that has the same chip.
How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? With a PROM burner (or similar product) designed for that purpose. Good luck finding one. If I still worked for Data I/O, I'd try to help you -- that's what they make. By the way, you'd probably need a new, clean chip. It's unlikely the microprocessor is re-programmable. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
EADGBE wrote:
Actually, a friend has a CR3a deck that has the exact same IC chip in it. How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? You'll need to get the manufacturer's data sheet for the microcontroller, which will tell you. Odds are you can get a blank microcontroller, and a PROM burner with the correct pod on it. Some manufacturers make special microcontrollers for prototyping purposes, which take a piggyback EPROM. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" = top posting IDIOT Your suggestion to put the original chip back in sounds good, but I am inclined to think that the chip is indeed defective, because when I installed the "generic" LM6416E chip, ** There is no such thing - you fool. It is either a blank and so does NOTHING at all or it has a specific purpose programmed in. two of the main problems went away: namely, 1) the problem of the deck always returning itself to PLAY mode even when no tape is inserted (this was the main problem), and 2) the constantly flickering counter digits. ** So it was simply not working. Even though the generic LM6416E chip could not properly count (due to lack of Nak-specific programming), the chip DID control the tape transport functions and counter display voltage perfectly. ** ******** - it simply did nothing. Thus, I have to conclude that the original chip is indeed bad. ** Like a hee hawing ass makes a conclusion. ....... Phil |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"Scott Dorsey" EADGBE Actually, a friend has a CR3a deck that has the exact same IC chip in it. How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? You'll need to get the manufacturer's data sheet for the microcontroller, which will tell you. ** ROTFL !! Dorsey is a brain dead ASS !! ......... Phil |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" wrote in message oups.com... On May 29, 10:56 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: It may be possible to clone the firmware if you can borrow a good one from another machine. --scott Scott: Actually, a friend has a CR3a deck that has the exact same IC chip in it. How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? You would need to make a substantial investment in a Programming system - several hundred dollars - it would be a lot cheaper to buy another used Nakamichi. Also, some uControllers have one time programmable Program Memory so you would need to buy a new blank chip, some have protection systems that prevent the code being read so you may not be able to clone it anyway (this is an optional programming tool that can be used at will). You won't know that til you've spent your several hundred dollars and given it a go, though the datasheet might give you more info on whether this particular chip has this facility, the one I found has little detailed information. Gareth. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"Phil Allison" = childish, name-calling troll - one of millions who
fire off what they think are clever On May 29, 11:28 pm, "Phil Allison" wrote: "Phil Allison" = top posting IDIOT Your suggestion to put the original chip back in sounds good, but I am inclined to think that the chip is indeed defective, because when I installed the "generic" LM6416E chip, ** There is no such thing - you fool. That is why I used the word "generic" in QUOTATION MARKS - you fool. If your reading comprehension skills had been above primary-school level, you would have been able to comprehend that I was contrasting the purpose-programmed LM6416E chip that was factory installed into my BX-300, and the regular-issue LM6416E I had purchased, which did not have the tape counter programming specific to my deck's application. It is either a blank and so does NOTHING at all or it has a specific purpose programmed in. two of the main problems went away: namely, 1) the problem of the deck always returning itself to PLAY mode even when no tape is inserted (this was the main problem), and 2) the constantly flickering counter digits. ** So it was simply not working. Don't jump to a conclusion so fast, lest you find yourself compared to a "hee-hawing ass" -- whoops, too late. The deck's original LM6416E did work most of the time, but at certain times worked intermittently. Most of the time, it worked flawlessly, but at certain random times when the deck was left on for more than 30 minutes, it would not operate the tape counter properly, and it would also return the deck to PLAY mode at random times, no matter what other operation mode was in effect (RW, FF, STOP). So it was not a clear-cut case of outright failure, as you seem to think. In fact, the deck could still work well enough -- the only real reason I want to replace the original chip at all is down to getting rid of a nuisance situation. (Wish I could get rid of ALL nuisances....hint, hint) Even though the generic LM6416E chip could not properly count (due to lack of Nak-specific programming), the chip DID control the tape transport functions and counter display voltage perfectly. ** ******** - it simply did nothing. Here is where your tendency to fling yourself toward a conclusion has really screwed you up. Do you know anything about the circuitry of the Nakamichi BX-300, or any other Nakamichi deck...or possibly even any electronic device at all? The LM6416E chip controls the counter and works with the Logic circuit on the main PCB to control the deck's tape transport functions. When I replaced the LM6416E chip, two of the deck's problems (always returning to PLAY mode, flickering digits in the counter display) were cured. Therefore, the new LM6416E actually DID do something. The empirical evidence is right there. I was once again able to control the deck's tape transport functions with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I can't really see why you have a problem with that...or did you just want to pretend to be a grown-up and use the word "********" in a post? Careful now, don't let Mum see you use that language! LOL Thus, I have to conclude that the original chip is indeed bad. ** Like a hee hawing ass makes a conclusion. ...... Phil The irony of your attempt to be clever here should be evident to everyone (except yourself, of course). I will waste no more time with you. Go ahead and conjure up some more childish retorts from the safety of your parent's cellar. I won't take the bait. Good riddance, and have a nice day! |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"EADGBE" = Top Posting ****ing IDIOT Your suggestion to put the original chip back in sounds good, but I am inclined to think that the chip is indeed defective, because when I installed the "generic" LM6416E chip, ** There is NO such thing - you fool. It is either a *blank * and so does ** NOTHING ** at all or it has a specific purpose programmed in. YOU have no comprehension of what a micro-controller IS !!!!! two of the main problems went away: namely, 1) the problem of the deck always returning itself to PLAY mode even when no tape is inserted (this was the main problem), and 2) the constantly flickering counter digits. ** So it was simply not working. YOU have no comprehension of what a micro-controller IS !!!!! Even though the generic LM6416E chip could not properly count (due to lack of Nak-specific programming), the chip DID control the tape transport functions and counter display voltage perfectly. ** ******** - it simply did nothing. YOU have no comprehension of what a micro-controller IS !!!!! Thus, I have to conclude that the original chip is indeed bad. ** Like a hee hawing ass makes a conclusion. **** OFF !!!!! ....... Phil |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro,uk.rec.audio,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
In rec.audio.pro Gareth Magennis wrote:
"EADGBE" wrote in message oups.com... On May 29, 10:56 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: It may be possible to clone the firmware if you can borrow a good one from another machine. --scott Scott: Actually, a friend has a CR3a deck that has the exact same IC chip in it. How would I clone the firmware from his chip to re-program my faulty chip? You would need to make a substantial investment in a Programming system - several hundred dollars - it would be a lot cheaper to buy another used Nakamichi. You can buy used PROM burners cheap as all get out. -- Aaron |
#24
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
wrote:
You can buy used PROM burners cheap as all get out. Right, it's the programming pods that are the issue these days. Unless you want to burn 2716s or something. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#25
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UPDATE: Nakamichi BX-300 Repair - NEW Problem
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... wrote: You can buy used PROM burners cheap as all get out. Right, it's the programming pods that are the issue these days. Unless you want to burn 2716s or something. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Yes, this is not a common part like a PIC or an 8051 based device, where you could get a programmer and maybe read and write to it. PROM burners have to know exactly which device they are dealing with, and have the hardware and software capable of doing so. Its a bit like saying "I've got a computer so I should be able to connect it to my BMW and reset the mileage". Gareth. |
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