[[email protected]]

Hi:

I've heard of some people getting much improved performance with their
Delta 1010 converters by using a shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.
So I'm thinking of making my own, not only because it's cheaper doing
so, but it's also fun to be masochistic sometimes. :-D Really, I
want to make the best D-Sub cable I can with very good quality
components because I can't seem to find any real good ones off the
shelf.

This is where I need your help. First, the pin outs. This cable is
going to connect the Delta 1010 break-out box to its PCI card, and
should be IEEE1284-compliant. Do I simply solder wires from pin 1 to
pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, ..., and so on until pin 25 to
pin 25 of the DB25 connectors? That would require a multicore cable of
25 wires. Is there such a thing?

Next, the DB25 connectors. Could you please recommend a very good
brand and also where I could buy them? Are Amp or ITT/Cannon the ones
to look for?

And last but not the least, the cable. Could you please recommend a
very good but not too expensive cable for this purpose, maybe in the
lines of Belden or Canare or Mogami? Should the cable be 75-Ohm or
110-Ohm?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
ups.com


I've heard of some people getting much improved
performance with their Delta 1010 converters by using a
shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.

Will the madness never cease?

Let me guess - someone made a shorter cable and started whooping and
hollering around some forum some place that it made a "mind blowing"
difference.

The 1010 isn't perfect by any means, but the source of the imperfections are
99%+ inside the rack box. If your1010 is old enough or part of a bad lot,
there may be a problem with the power supply filter caps. This shows up as
degraded noise and jitter performance. The more general source of problems
are the converter and buffer chips. They are what they are - relatively
inexpensive and older-tech devices that are still pretty good but not nearly
SOTA.

Before you leap into a lot of soldering and fussing, why not properly
evaluate the box? First, test it using the free Rightmark Program. This
will show up the power supply cap probem.

Then listen to what your favorite music sounds like looped through it.

[Mike Rivers]

On Aug 2, 5:17 am, wrote:

I've heard of some people getting much improved performance with their
Delta 1010 converters by using a shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.

Where did you hear this? At the barber shop? I assume you're talking
about the cable between the breakout box and the host card?

So I'm thinking of making my own, not only because it's cheaper doing
so, but it's also fun to be masochistic sometimes. :-D Really, I
want to make the best D-Sub cable I can with very good quality
components because I can't seem to find any real good ones off the
shelf.

You can't possibly make a cable at home that's as good as one that you
can buy from someone who has the proper tools and sources for the
parts. I'd suggest that you contact Monster Cable and get a quote.

This is where I need your help. First, the pin outs. This cable is
going to connect the Delta 1010 break-out box to its PCI card, and
should be IEEE1284-compliant. Do I simply solder wires from pin 1 to
pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, ..., and so on until pin 25 to
pin 25 of the DB25 connectors? That would require a multicore cable of
25 wires. Is there such a thing?

See, you've just demonstrated that you don't have the knowledge or
experience to build a really good cable. Since a different cable
wouldn't do you any good anyway, I'd suggest that you buy yourself a
nice lunch and relax.

To give you straight answers to your questions about high quality
connectors and cables, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

What I'd suggest is that you ask one of those guys at the barber shop
who say they got much better performance with a shorter cable to lend
you their cable for a couple of days. Try it out. If you think it
makes any difference, ask the person you borrowed it from to make you
one or tell you where he got it.

It's nice to learn things but you can't do everything yourself. If you
want to learn about making cables, go to Radio Shack, buy some parts
(including a continuity tester or multimeter so you can trace out the
wiring of the original cable) and make one. If it's functional, then
you can start researching better quality components, study their
characteristics, decide if there are characteristics that matter, and
then buy what you need to make a better cable. Or just buy one.

[[email protected]]

Come on, guys. Please don't be that negative. I already make my own
audio, S/PDIF and word clock cables and have the tools. I just want
to learn something new. D-Sub shouldn't be that much big of a deal.
And for me it's fun. Even if there's no improvement at all, at least
I learned something and had fun. :-) Here's the thread that led me
into this short cable adventu

http://forum.recordingreview.com/sho...?t=2261&page=5

The thread starter, JohnR, seems to know what he's doing, and has even
posted comparison wave files to see the difference. There are also
other useful mods suggested in that thread.

Arny said:

Before you leap into a lot of soldering and fussing, why not properly
evaluate the box? First, test it using the free Rightmark Program. This
will show up the power supply cap probem.

I already did, but I'm not sure how to identify the power supply cap
problem (if I have it at all) with RMAA. Could you please tell me
how? Here are my RMAA test results:

http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...ison%2044K.htm

Thanks, guys, and please don't be too hard on me! Just havin'
fun! :-)

[[email protected]]

Regarding the RMAA tests, I forgot to mention that these are all audio
loopback tests from analog outputs 5/6 to analog inputs 5/6. The
"Internal" test was using the 1010's internal clock by itself, the "S/
PDIF" was synching the 1010 to a Mytek Stereo96 ADC via S/PDIF, and
the "WordClk" was synching the 1010 to the Mytek Stereo96 ADC via word
clock BNC.

Thanks again! :-)

[Nono]

On 2 aug, 11:17, wrote:
Hi:

I've heard of some people getting much improved performance with their
Delta 1010 converters by using a shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.
So I'm thinking of making my own, not only because it's cheaper doing
so, but it's also fun to be masochistic sometimes. :-D Really, I
want to make the best D-Sub cable I can with very good quality
components because I can't seem to find any real good ones off the
shelf.

This is where I need your help. First, the pin outs. This cable is
going to connect the Delta 1010 break-out box to its PCI card, and
should be IEEE1284-compliant. Do I simply solder wires from pin 1 to
pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, ..., and so on until pin 25 to
pin 25 of the DB25 connectors? That would require a multicore cable of
25 wires. Is there such a thing?

Next, the DB25 connectors. Could you please recommend a very good
brand and also where I could buy them? Are Amp or ITT/Cannon the ones
to look for?

And last but not the least, the cable. Could you please recommend a
very good but not too expensive cable for this purpose, maybe in the
lines of Belden or Canare or Mogami? Should the cable be 75-Ohm or
110-Ohm?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

You can look at this address: www.span.com/catalog/
Look under SCSI cables, they have a D25 cable for € 6.00.
I don't know if you can make one yourself for less than that.

Good luck,
Norman.

[Laurence Payne]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:48:14 -0700, wrote:

Come on, guys. Please don't be that negative. I already make my own
audio, S/PDIF and word clock cables and have the tools. I just want
to learn something new. D-Sub shouldn't be that much big of a deal.
And for me it's fun. Even if there's no improvement at all, at least
I learned something and had fun. :-) Here's the thread that led me
into this short cable adventu

http://forum.recordingreview.com/sho...?t=2261&page=5

The thread starter, JohnR, seems to know what he's doing, and has even
posted comparison wave files to see the difference. There are also
other useful mods suggested in that thread.

I think you'll buy a ready-made cable cheaper than you could make it.
If you need to check the pinouts, put a meter on the supplied cable.

[[email protected]]

Thanks, guys, but I'm not looking for cheap. I want to make a good
one that's at least better than average, and the learning experience
and fun that goes with it. :-) I know I can do it. I just need to
research the materials and was hoping that someone could give
suggestions on what good connectors and cables to get. The pin outs I
can easily determine with continuity tests.

Cheers! :-)

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com...



I'm not sure how to identify the power supply cap
problem (if I have it at all) with RMAA. Could you please tell me
how? Here are my RMAA test results:

http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...ison%2044K.htm

Very helpful test results!

Let's focus our attention on this graph from your test:

"THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)"

http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...pback%202%20-%

This is an example of a comparable graph from 1010 that has the power supply
cap problem:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...0_2444/thd.gif

This is a comparable graph from a 1010LT that is working just fine:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...T-2444/thd.png

In the first 2 graphs, note the collection of spikes around the fundamental
@ 1 KHz. Note the absence of them in the third graph. Those spikes are the
result of your clock being frequency modulated by some low frequency source,
probably the power line. Not good!

Looks to me like the power line is frequency modulating the clock in your
1010.

Long story short, I think that it is time for you to check out the warranty
situation with your 1010.

[Mike Rivers]

On Aug 2, 12:48 pm, wrote:
Come on, guys. Please don't be that negative. I already make my own
audio, S/PDIF and word clock cables and have the tools. I just want
to learn something new. D-Sub shouldn't be that much big of a deal.

It isn't, so don't make such a big deal of it.

The thread starter, JohnR, seems to know what he's doing, and has even
posted comparison wave files to see the difference. There are also
other useful mods suggested in that thread.

Sorry, I'm not going to search through five pages to find what you're
talking about. However seeing Arny's response (and he's often right
abou these things) it seems that you should probably get your 1010
working correctly before you try to improve it. And seriously, I don't
think that a shorter or better quality cable will change anything. But
if you want to have fun making a cable, go ahead. Nothing like
experience to teach you when it makes sense not to bother doing
something tedious. g

[William Sommerwerck]

XLRs are bad enough; I've made more than I ever care to. But miniature
digital cables... Arrrggghhh!

Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to such techno-masochism?
Soldering isn't the hard part. It's holding those little wires in place
against the lugs as you solder. Madness!

[Mike Rivers]

On Aug 2, 5:18 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to such techno-masochism?
Soldering isn't the hard part. It's holding those little wires in place
against the lugs as you solder. Madness!

This is why I said that places that make these things up all the time
have the right tools and parts. That's not a soldering iron, it's a
hydraulic or electric powered crimper (not the Radio Shack hand
crimper), machined pins (not the Radio shack stamped ones) and the
proper connectors. That's easier, faster, and more reliable than
soldering. But those crimpers are mighty expensive. It could easily
become a $3,000 cable.

[John L Rice]

http://www.action-electronics.com/co...connectors.htm

http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/T...&LG=1&I=13&G=G

http://www.dee-inc.com/netstore/cata...Sub+Connectors

http://www.dee-inc.com/netstore/cata...Sub+Connectors

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/HK062-07/0020-0023.pdf

http://www.mouser.com/search/refine....s&Mpcn=5 7105

http://www.avsupplystore.com/mg-3162.html

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...earch=0&of f=

How To :
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html


HAVE FUN! ;-)

--
John L Rice



wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi:

I've heard of some people getting much improved performance with their
Delta 1010 converters by using a shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.
So I'm thinking of making my own, not only because it's cheaper doing
so, but it's also fun to be masochistic sometimes. :-D Really, I
want to make the best D-Sub cable I can with very good quality
components because I can't seem to find any real good ones off the
shelf.

This is where I need your help. First, the pin outs. This cable is
going to connect the Delta 1010 break-out box to its PCI card, and
should be IEEE1284-compliant. Do I simply solder wires from pin 1 to
pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, ..., and so on until pin 25 to
pin 25 of the DB25 connectors? That would require a multicore cable of
25 wires. Is there such a thing?

Next, the DB25 connectors. Could you please recommend a very good
brand and also where I could buy them? Are Amp or ITT/Cannon the ones
to look for?

And last but not the least, the cable. Could you please recommend a
very good but not too expensive cable for this purpose, maybe in the
lines of Belden or Canare or Mogami? Should the cable be 75-Ohm or
110-Ohm?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[[email protected]]

On Aug 2, 12:15 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
...snip...
In the first 2 graphs, note the collection of spikes around the fundamental
@ 1 KHz. Note the absence of them in the third graph. Those spikes are the
result of your clock being frequency modulated by some low frequency source,
probably the power line. Not good!

Great info! Thanks! Interpreting these RMAA graphs is something I
would like to learn as well.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 2, 9:15 pm, "John L Rice" wrote:
http://www.action-electronics.com/co...connectors.htm

http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/T...23670&P=19887&...

http://www.dee-inc.com/netstore/cata...?PrimeCategory...

http://www.dee-inc.com/netstore/cata...?SubCategory=R...

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/HK062-07/0020-0023.pdf

http://www.mouser.com/search/refine....Sub%2BAccessor...

http://www.avsupplystore.com/mg-3162.html

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...at=CABLESCONN&...

How To :http://aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html

HAVE FUN! ;-)

I sure will! Man, thank you so much for all these info and
resources! Very helpful! :-)

[[email protected]]

mtl wrote:
I've heard of some people getting much improved performance with their
Delta 1010 converters by using a shorter (like 1 meter) D-Sub cable.

Highly unlikely unless there was something wrong with their
original cable. Cables and connectors are not magic. Decent
ones just work properly, and crummy ones don't.

So I'm thinking of making my own, not only because it's cheaper doing
so, but it's also fun to be masochistic sometimes. :-D Really, I
want to make the best D-Sub cable I can with very good quality
components because I can't seem to find any real good ones off the
shelf.

Perhaps because "really good ones" make no discernable difference?
(Of course, there are "botique" "snake-oil" cables with famous
names that sell for $$$$, but the falacy of that is been discussed
to death already and no use going over old ground again.)

Certainly you can use solder-pot (vs. crimp) machine-screw
(vs. stamped sheet-metal) pins if you want something that looks
nice. But as for sounding "much improved", only if you can convince
yourself that you are hearing something that isn't there.

This is where I need your help. First, the pin outs. This cable is
going to connect the Delta 1010 break-out box to its PCI card,

So when you Googled for delta 1010 pinout, you didn't find
anything?

and should be IEEE1284-compliant.

That's absurd. IEEE 1284 is the standard for parallel printers.

Do I simply solder wires from pin 1 to
pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, ..., and so on until pin 25 to
pin 25 of the DB25 connectors?

Dunno. What is the Delta 1010 pinout?

That would require a multicore cable of
25 wires. Is there such a thing?

Yes.

But do you need unshielded, single-ended shielded,
or shielded pairs? Again, depends on the pinout.

Next, the DB25 connectors. Could you please recommend a very good
brand and also where I could buy them? Are Amp or ITT/Cannon the ones
to look for?

Not clear what you think you will accomplish with "a very
good brand"? Is this something you will be plugging and
unplugging several times per day? If so, why? Otherewise
even a decent-quality cheap, stamped-pin connector will
"sound" just as good as a $2000 solid-gold "audiophile"
connector.

And last but not the least, the cable. Could you please recommend a
very good but not too expensive cable for this purpose, maybe in the
lines of Belden or Canare or Mogami?

Exactly what kind of cable do you need? You don't know
and we don't either. You must start with the exact spec for
the cable, specifically the internal shielding, etc.

Should the cable be 75-Ohm or 110-Ohm?

Why? Is this a digital device or analog?

Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

No offense, but it sounds like you are obsessing over
inconsequential details. Are you trying to fix some specific
problem with your setup? Or is this just free-floating
anxiety? There certainly seem like better places to put
your efforts than making magic cables.

Mike Rivers wrote:
On Aug 2, 5:18 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to such techno-masochism?
Soldering isn't the hard part. It's holding those little wires in place
against the lugs as you solder. Madness!

This is why I said that places that make these things up all the time
have the right tools and parts. That's not a soldering iron, it's a
hydraulic or electric powered crimper (not the Radio Shack hand
crimper), machined pins (not the Radio shack stamped ones) and the
proper connectors. That's easier, faster, and more reliable than
soldering. But those crimpers are mighty expensive. It could easily
become a $3,000 cable.

If it's actually mini D-sub (as opposed to regular D-sub) - that number
for a crimper looks about right.

--
Aaron

[[email protected]]

On Aug 2, 12:15 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

I'm not sure how to identify the power supply cap
problem (if I have it at all) with RMAA. Could you please tell me
how? Here are my RMAA test results:
http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...20Loopback%202...

Very helpful test results!

Let's focus our attention on this graph from your test:

"THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)"

http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...20Loopback%202...

This is an example of a comparable graph from 1010 that has the power supply
cap problem:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...0_2444/thd.gif

This is a comparable graph from a 1010LT that is working just fine:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...T-2444/thd.png

In the first 2 graphs, note the collection of spikes around the fundamental
@ 1 KHz. Note the absence of them in the third graph. Those spikes are the
result of your clock being frequency modulated by some low frequency source,
probably the power line. Not good!

Looks to me like the power line is frequency modulating the clock in your
1010.

Long story short, I think that it is time for you to check out the warranty
situation with your 1010.

Hi Arny:

So is this due to a bad capacitor somewhere? Would you have an idea
where this capacitor might be?

BTW, I have other questions regarding my 1010 that would just make
this thread go OT. Would it be alright if we discuss them privately
by email instead? If it's OK, please let me know your email address.

Thanks a lot! :-)

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 2, 12:15 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

I'm not sure how to identify the power supply cap
problem (if I have it at all) with RMAA. Could you please tell me
how? Here are my RMAA test results:
http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...20Loopback%202...

Very helpful test results!

Let's focus our attention on this graph from your test:

"THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)"

http://home.ca.rr.com/mtl777/RMAA%20...20Loopback%202...

This is an example of a comparable graph from 1010 that has the power
supply
cap problem:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...0_2444/thd.gif

This is a comparable graph from a 1010LT that is working just fine:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/d...T-2444/thd.png

In the first 2 graphs, note the collection of spikes around the
fundamental
@ 1 KHz. Note the absence of them in the third graph. Those spikes are
the
result of your clock being frequency modulated by some low frequency
source,
probably the power line. Not good!

Looks to me like the power line is frequency modulating the clock in your
1010.

Long story short, I think that it is time for you to check out the
warranty
situation with your 1010.

So is this due to a bad capacitor somewhere?

That's my best guess.


Would you have an idea where this capacitor might be?

The rack box.

BTW, I have other questions regarding my 1010 that would just make
this thread go OT. Would it be alright if we discuss them privately
by email instead? If it's OK, please let me know your email address.

My *real* email address is arnyk at comcast dot net.

However, your 1010 should be in warranty. You might get it fixed by M-Audio
for next to nothing.