[Steve Parker[_2_]]

What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???


-


Steven Parker

Video Production Specialist
ITCS/ACES
67A Mumford Hall, MC-710
University of Illinois
Urbana, IL 61801

"I absolutely refuse to be anonymous.
Don't use handles. Use your real name.
Have the conviction to identify your ideas."

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:50:44 -0500, Steve Parker
wrote:

What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

If you have cables that need cooling, they are made with far too thin
a wire gauge. Get fatter cables.

If you are talking about signal cables - mics I guess - then coiling
them makes no difference. The coils are in common mode, the signal in
differential mode. Just make them tidy so no-one trips.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:58:09 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:50:44 -0500, Steve Parker
wrote:

What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

If you have cables that need cooling, they are made with far too thin
a wire gauge. Get fatter cables.

If you are talking about signal cables - mics I guess - then coiling
them makes no difference. The coils are in common mode, the signal in
differential mode. Just make them tidy so no-one trips.

d

Ok, I see I got your meaning wrong. I prefer to keep long cables on
drums, and wind them on and off without twist. If I have no drum for a
long cable, I use a figure-8 drape that has no net twist.

d

[Richard Crowley]

"Don Pearce" wrote ...
(Don Pearce) wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:
What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

If you have cables that need cooling, they are made with far too thin
a wire gauge. Get fatter cables.

If you are talking about signal cables - mics I guess - then coiling
them makes no difference. The coils are in common mode, the signal in
differential mode. Just make them tidy so no-one trips.


Ok, I see I got your meaning wrong. I prefer to keep long cables on
drums, and wind them on and off without twist. If I have no drum for a
long cable, I use a figure-8 drape that has no net twist.

Except for short (15 ft, 5m) cables, I keep mine plugged end-to end
and rolled up on those orange hand reels sold at home improvement
stores for storing electrical extension cords. I have around a dozen of
them for 3-pin standard XLR, 5-pin "stereo" XLR, speaker, power,
and BNC (video) cables. They are generally easier for amateur helpers
to manage who otherwise have no special cable management experience.

It makes them easier to deploy quickly as one can just pull off as much
as needed quickly. And then when rolling them up during the strike, one
can use a damp towel to clean off the cable (and tension it) as it is rolled
back onto the reels.

The short cables (and jumpers, adapters, etc.) I keep coiled ~6~8
inches diameter with the end looped through to hold it together, etc.
and put into the appropriate box. I have separate boxes for short
XLR cables, RCA cables, BNC cables, and one for IEC power
cables and power strips.

Big heavy cables (multi-core TV camera cables, etc.) are done in
the figure-8 stacking as Mr. Pearce describes, but I don't find that
as practical for smaller cables except in a fixed situation. All my stuff
is mobile.

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

(Don Pearce) wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:50:44 -0500, Steve Parker
wrote:

What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

I coil everything ... cables, ropes, hoses, test leads ... *everything*
over and under.

I do it in hand with smaller things, on the floor for larger ones. "Figure
eight" is good for things like camera cables that have to pay out as the
camera trucks away from the anchor point.

There's a certain satisfaction to holding onto one end of a 100' mic cable
and throwing the coil across a stage, watching it land straight-arrow on
the deck.

The problem of knots comes from allowing the end you hold to have slipped
through the center so it is on the wrong side of the coil.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Mike Rivers]

Steve Parker wrote:

I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.

It's just a matter of personal preference. I know people who never
use over-and-under because it's too easy to end up with a string
of knots if you're not careful when uncoiling it.

I use over-and-under for cables that get too heavy for me to hold
up while coiling them, because that seems to work better when
laying the coil on the ground or in a box. I tend to coil short
cables over-and-over.

I never use the fold-it-in-half, fold-it-in-half-again, and again, and again
method, but some people use nothing else.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Steve Parker[_2_]]

Personally I've never had the knot problem.
But I could see this being a problem with new/starting out crew.
I may have to rethink this..

And I have never been able to make the fold and fold again work for me.

-


Steven Parker



Mike Rivers wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:

I'm old school and over and under just about everything,..

It's just a matter of personal preference. I know people who never
use over-and-under because it's too easy to end up with a string
of knots if you're not careful when uncoiling it.

[Mike Rivers]

Steve Parker wrote:
Personally I've never had the knot problem.
But I could see this being a problem with new/starting out crew.

It can occur if the free end slips thorugh the center of the coil. I
actually
first learned how to make a string of knots when I was talking with a
sailor.
He showed me what he called a "monkey line" made by coiling a rope
"over and under", passing the free end through the center, and shaking
out the coil. They use it to make an emergency rope ladder.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve Parker wrote:
What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as long
as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. Wrap it like a
rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged mess.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow wrapping is.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Steve Parker[_2_]]

There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends a
cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. Tjey
still work fine.
-


Steven Parker

Video Production Specialist
ITCS/ACES
67A Mumford Hall, MC-710
University of Illinois
Urbana, IL 61801

"I absolutely refuse to be anonymous.
Don't use handles. Use your real name.
Have the conviction to identify your ideas."



Scott Dorsey wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:
What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.

A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as long
as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. Wrap it like a
rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged mess.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow wrapping is.
--scott

[Richard Crowley]

"Steve Parker" wrote ...
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends a
cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. Tjey still
work fine.

I use mic cables I made in the mid 1970s that still work fine today.
(At least the half of them I haven't lost along the way.) I used the
small, real rubber Belden mic cable (#?) and Switchcraft A3M/A3F.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Richard Crowley wrote:

| I use mic cables I made in the mid 1970s that still work fine today.
| (At least the half of them I haven't lost along the way.) I used the
| small, real rubber Belden mic cable (#?)

102-06, Sennheisers with RFI proof dual layer twist screen?

and Switchcraft A3M/A3F.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:17:50 -0500, Steve Parker
wrote:

There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends a
cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. Tjey
still work fine.

Someone has kindly filmed a demo of the over/under method

http://members.cox.net/mactop/

d

[Neil[_7_]]

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:17:50 -0500, Steve Parker
wrote:

There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends a
cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. Tjey
still work fine.
-
Elbow wrapping is fine if you do it properly. I have cables I have
been elbow wrapping for 20 years and they are fine. Do not pull or
wrap tightly, ensure you don't coil the twists!
Only with short -10 metres of course.
neil

[Arny Krueger]

"Steve Parker" wrote in message
...
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends a
cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. They still
work fine.

Not to be contrary, but I have cables that might be over 50 years old, ere
used very haphazardly, and they are still fine, just getting a little stiff.
;-)

[Jay Ts]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Steve Parker" wrote
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends
a cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. They
still work fine.

Not to be contrary, but I have cables that might be over 50 years old,
ere used very haphazardly, and they are still fine, just getting a
little stiff. ;-)

I don't doubt it, but weren't they using much tougher construction
then? Like maybe braided copper wire for the shield, and not thin metal
foil?

There are (have been) so many different types of cable. Maybe some are
more easily damaged by twisting than others.

I'd like to see a study too. Maybe someone could make a machine that
stretches a length of cable, then twists it one direction, then the
other, for a torture test. Then compare its electrical properties before
and after - capacitance, resistance, inductance, and especially, the
ability of the shield to keep noise levels low.

I'd also like to see the results of a "run over by casters" test.

Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php

[Richard Crowley]

Jay Ts wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Steve Parker" wrote
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling
extends a cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20
years old. They still work fine.

Not to be contrary, but I have cables that might be over 50 years
old, ere used very haphazardly, and they are still fine, just
getting a little stiff. ;-)

I don't doubt it, but weren't they using much tougher construction
then? Like maybe braided copper wire for the shield, and not thin
metal foil?

But OTOH, some of the old rubber cables start to get hard and
crack, etc so the cable insulation itself may be the failure mode.

[Scott Dorsey]

Jay Ts wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Steve Parker" wrote
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends
a cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. They
still work fine.

Not to be contrary, but I have cables that might be over 50 years old,
ere used very haphazardly, and they are still fine, just getting a
little stiff. ;-)

I don't doubt it, but weren't they using much tougher construction
then? Like maybe braided copper wire for the shield, and not thin metal
foil?

You can buy cable like that today. You will have to pay more money than
for crap, but it's worth the money.

I'd like to see a study too. Maybe someone could make a machine that
stretches a length of cable, then twists it one direction, then the
other, for a torture test. Then compare its electrical properties before
and after - capacitance, resistance, inductance, and especially, the
ability of the shield to keep noise levels low.

Belden has done all of this stuff. If you ask Steve Lampen, he'll send
you all kinds of propaganda.

I'd also like to see the results of a "run over by casters" test.

I don't know, but I _do_ know that the served shield that msot of the Mogami
cables use can be damaged very badly by rolling a piano over the cable.
The braid shields seem okay.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Jay Ts" wrote in message
.com...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Steve Parker" wrote
There are people who I will not hire because they could not break
themselves of the habit of elbow wrapping.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how long proper coiling extends
a cables life. I have some mic cables that are over 20 years old. They
still work fine.

Not to be contrary, but I have cables that might be over 50 years old,
ere used very haphazardly, and they are still fine, just getting a
little stiff. ;-)

I don't doubt it, but weren't they using much tougher construction
then? Like maybe braided copper wire for the shield, and not thin metal
foil?

Point well taken.

There's a middle ground - many modern cables use fine stranded wire in a
loose wrap. Braid looks more elegant but I don't know if it really that
much better.

Nobody in their right mind uses foil jacketed cable for mic cables, do they?
I thought foil was only for permanent installations.

There are (have been) so many different types of cable. Maybe some are
more easily damaged by twisting than others.

The most common signs of abuse leading to hard failure I see is the outer
jacket ripped by heavy abrasion or crushing, and cables just completely torn
apart by twirling.

I'd like to see a study too. Maybe someone could make a machine that
stretches a length of cable, then twists it one direction, then the
other, for a torture test. Then compare its electrical properties before
and after - capacitance, resistance, inductance, and especially, the
ability of the shield to keep noise levels low.

That would be a good test. I wonder if people like Belden do such things.

I'd also like to see the results of a "run over by casters" test.

Unh yes, the steel casters running over a cement floor. Ouch!

But I've seen jackets torn apart by feet on carpeting.

[[email protected]]

On 2009-06-08 (ScottDorsey) said:
A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as
long as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. Wrap it
like a rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged
mess.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow
wrapping is. --scott
I would too.

What I'd be even happier with is if I oculd find some bins
on wheels that would accomodate my snakes and my power
feeder cables for remote truck. I bought a couple of
plastic bins at WAl Mart, but they're not on wheels, sort
of unwieldy on a hand truck, and not that rugged imho.
I"m looking at biting the bullet and building something
myself out of wood, though it would be damned heavy.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Al, Cambridge, UK]

On Jun 8, 9:47*pm, wrote:
On 2009-06-08 (ScottDorsey) said:
* *A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as
* *long as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. *Wrap it
* *like a rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged
* *mess.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly.

* *I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow
* *wrapping is. --scott
I would too.

What I'd be even happier with is if I oculd find some bins
on wheels that would accomodate my snakes and my power
feeder cables for remote truck. *I bought a couple of
plastic bins at WAl Mart, *but they're not on wheels, sort
of unwieldy on a hand truck, and not that rugged imho.
I"m looking at biting the bullet and building something
myself out of wood, though it would be damned heavy.

Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

I think www.sommercable.com (Germany) make flightcases with vertical
drums for heavy multicore snakes, but I can't find product on their
website - may have been in their paper catalogue.
Or it might be www.studiospares.com (UK), also can't find product.

[Al, Cambridge, UK]

On Jun 10, 12:49*pm, "Al, Cambridge, UK" wrote:
On Jun 8, 9:47*pm, wrote:





On 2009-06-08 (ScottDorsey) said:
* *A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as
* *long as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. *Wrap it
* *like a rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged
* *mess.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly.

* *I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow
* *wrapping is. --scott
I would too.

What I'd be even happier with is if I oculd find some bins
on wheels that would accomodate my snakes and my power
feeder cables for remote truck. *I bought a couple of
plastic bins at WAl Mart, *but they're not on wheels, sort
of unwieldy on a hand truck, and not that rugged imho.
I"m looking at biting the bullet and building something
myself out of wood, though it would be damned heavy.

Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

I thinkwww.sommercable.com(Germany) make flightcases with vertical
drums for heavy multicore snakes, but I can't find product on their
website - may have been in their paper catalogue.
Or it might bewww.studiospares.com(UK), also can't find product.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Found it in Sommer's catalogue this morning...
http://www.sommercable.com/2__produk...mr_wheeler.htm
"MISTER WHEELER" multicore drum case.
Hope that helps somebody,
Al

[Paul P[_3_]]

In case anyone is wondering what the "over and under" technique is
here's a short video demonstration :

http://stagecraft.theprices.net/gall...lewrap-qt.html

Paul P

[WillStG]

On Jun 8, 3:11*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:

What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under *just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil *a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as long
as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. *Wrap it like a
rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged mess.

Well if you want to lasso a steer, you have to over and under your
lariat or you can't just throw it and not have it get tangled. Wire
is wound generally like rope is, and both want to naturally wrap over
and under. Video Tri-Ax cable is the same, but being heavy guys
sometimes lay it on the floor in a figure 8 and then fold it over,
same thing.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow wrapping is.

Think Cowboys and Sailors have this same discussion about wrapping
ropes?

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Steve Parker wrote:
What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as long
as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. Wrap it like a
rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged mess.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow wrapping is.

I've thought that over/under is mandatory for braided shields, and
neither necessary nor optimal for spiral.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:52:08 -0700, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Steve Parker wrote:
What is the consensus on coiling short to medium length cables.
Say less than 25 ft.
I'm old school and over and under just about everything, but I'm
running into a lot grips/2nds who just straight coil a 20 footer.
Mind you, I've never had a problem when I've asked for an over and
under, and they seem to naturally go over and under on longer runs.

Anyway, am I being picky???

A straight coil is fine, though it takes a little bit longer, as long
as you actually pay attention to how the cable wraps. Wrap it like a
rope, don't just roll it up and let it turn into a damaged mess.

I'd be happy if I could just get people to realize how bad elbow wrapping is.

I've thought that over/under is mandatory for braided shields, and
neither necessary nor optimal for spiral.

The twist has to end up somewhere, whatever the cable construction.
You can get help, and work the twist right off the end of the cable as
you coil it, but then it comes right back again next time you run the
cable out. Over and under averts the whole problem.

d