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#2
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Behringer does it !!!
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#3
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Behringer does it !!!
Actually there are a couple of good reasons:
I guess I was being too general. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
#4
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Behringer does it !!!
I'm the technical director for our radio
show, Mountain Stage, and we have several needs there. I want to compliment you on a wonderful facility I got to mix there at a footmad show last march(Old Blind Dogs) Your crew was paitence , helpful , and professional your gear was pro level deployed properly and working up to standard you mix position was about as good as I worked at that tour the people were friendly(The after party up in the hills was the BOMB!) and it was a hoot riding on the stage Good Job, one of the facilities I would look forward to returning to George --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/2004 |
#5
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Behringer does it !!!
"octopus" wrote in message ... (John Dziurlaj) wrote in message om... (jancee) wrote in message . com... so heres my two cents about Behringer: say what you will but Behringer has let lots of kids and wannabes learn the basics of making music by allowing them to get their fingers on equipment with features they could not afford if Behringer wasn't around; in that case all they could choose from would be more expensive equipment that would effectively price them out of the game. I think it will do just the opposite, kids will lose interest in music because it sounds so bad! This is such a big nonsense! We have paid much more money for Fostex and Tascam 4-track recorders to record our music. The technical quality was much worse than what you can achieve today with a cheap PC and its onboard soundcard together with a Behringer mixer. The microphones that we could afford were in the same range as the cheap Chinese condensor mics today (including Behringer and Marshall mics) - but not as good. etc., And who hasn't bought cheap **** and later wondered why they didn't exercise some patience? The funny thing about The Kids is that they all get older and stop being Kids. It's important to remember that, even when you are a Kid. A lot of times the main difference between cheap crap and decency, in terms of what you can have, is some patience (restraint) and knowing what you are looking at. Funny, sometimes that's the same thing that makes a mix work or not. jb But, still we did not loose interest. And if today a kid looses interest in music, it's certainly not because of the quality of todays cheapest gear. (most kids raise interest in music based on mp3 files with 96kbps!). It has never been easier and cheaper for kids to achieve a recording quality which is most of the time significantly above their musical abilities. Kids will probably loose interest in music when people like you tell them that it does not make sense to make home recordings until you can't afford all that expensive stuff. Arguments like yours just help them to blame poor results on the gear they used - that's good for Sam Ash but not helpful for the kids. Markus |
#6
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Behringer does it !!!
In this place, reddred was recorded uttering these words:
And who hasn't bought cheap **** and later wondered why they didn't exerc= ise some patience? And how do you learn to tell the difference? =20 The funny thing about The Kids is that they all get older and stop being Kids. It's important to remember that, even when you are a Kid. A lot of times the main difference between cheap crap and decency, in terms of wha= t you can have, is some patience (restraint) and knowing what you are looki= ng at. Funny, sometimes that's the same thing that makes a mix work or not. Then there's the argument that anything that lets the creative juices=20 flow (and doesn't put a brake on kids' energy and enthusiasm) is=20 priceless. When my teenage son first expressed an interest in playing electric=20 guitar, my wife and I were delighted to find a cheap Strat copy (a=20 Westfield) with small amp for less than =A3100 ($150). It was ideal to let= =20 a potential young rock-god discover whether his interest would last. In his case, it did - and he's since been upgraded via a Yamaha to (this=20 Christmas) a PRS with Line-6 amp. He still has the Westfield and the practise amp. Guess what? He still=20 occasionally plays the Westfield (he has learned to appreciate=20 differences in tone and playability) and the practise amp is used almost=20 daily - despite the more obvious attractions of the shiny new Line-6. Would I buy a cheap starter guitar package again? You bet I would. And - getting back to cheap gear - I was asked to help kit out the=20 boys' school music department for a new music technology course.=20 Regardless of budget (which, you may not be surprised to hear, did not=20 run to Neve/GML/Neumann - nor even Focusrite/Meek/Shure) I put in a=20 collection of Soundcraft, Behringer, Zoom, AKG and cheap Chinese mics. This stuff has worked flawlessly for three years now - under hard=20 working conditions (anyone know where I can buy armoured mic cables?=20 g) and ... is about a million times better than the quality of gear I=20 cut my teeth on in my teens. Point is - low-cost gear has some seriously valuable purpose. And the well-equipped studio owners here might ask where tomorrow's=20 talent is going to come from if kids don't get an opportunity to learn=20 and gain experience. Kids are smart. They do learn to appreciate differences (including sonic=20 quality) and will want better - it's in their nature. But they have to gain experience to acquire that appreciation. Your entire argument is based on an assumption that low-cost gear sounds=20 like crap, falls apart and has no value in "professional" circles. Have you *used* any of this stuff or are you just recycling old=20 prejudices? Don't just blindly knock the cheap stuff. It has value and purpose well=20 beyond what you give it credit for. And it's performance (even audibly) can be much better than you imagine. --=20 George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
#7
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Behringer does it !!!
"George Perfect" wrote in message o.uk... In this place, reddred was recorded uttering these words: The funny thing about The Kids is that they all get older and stop being Kids. It's important to remember that, even when you are a Kid. A lot of times the main difference between cheap crap and decency, in terms of what you can have, is some patience (restraint) and knowing what you are looking at. Funny, sometimes that's the same thing that makes a mix work or not. *Then there's the argument that anything that lets the creative juices *flow (and doesn't put a brake on kids' energy and enthusiasm) is *priceless. I don't disagree. I think low-cost gear is great as a learning tool, even the stuff that doesn't cut the mustard as a production tool. Although IMO much of it does, but telling the difference can be tricky. While your son might be happy with his strat-copy now, he will run into a plateau with it unless it is an extreme exception to the rule. And if he were going into a studio, or even making a record on his own, if he were at that point with his music, he would undoubtedly want something a bit better. The key thing here is that nobody is telling him that his guitar is 'just as good' as a luthier instrument or even a top of the line strat, even though for his purposes, at his level of interest, it is 'just as good'. It is marketed for what it is - a great starting guitar. *And - getting back to cheap gear - I was asked to help kit out the *boys' school music department for a new music technology course. *Regardless of budget (which, you may not be surprised to hear, did not *run to Neve/GML/Neumann - nor even Focusrite/Meek/Shure) I put in a *collection of Soundcraft, Behringer, Zoom, AKG and cheap Chinese mics. Some of which is great stuff. My experience with Behringer is less than positive, but OTOH if Behringer had been around when I was a teenager with a four track cassette I would have loved it. *This stuff has worked flawlessly for three years now - under hard *working conditions (anyone know where I can buy armoured mic cables? *g) and ... is about a million times better than the quality of gear I *cut my teeth on in my teens. And the import guitars are better too. I take advantage of this trend all the time - my studio isn't exactly full of neve channels and neumanns, nor do I think those things are particularly necessary. *Your entire argument is based on an assumption that low-cost gear sounds *like crap, falls apart and has no value in "professional" circles. Now here's where you are making assumptions about what I was trying to express by talking about patience, and I think I wasn't explicit enough with him. People have the tendency to want it all, right now (not just kids) and the pro audio industry is willing lately to make those kinds of offers - but there is a hidden cost. Really, if all somebody can afford is, say, an m-audio audiobuddy, because that's all the money they have -right now-, they deserve to know that something that costs two or three times as much may sound a great deal better (or it may not) and a little patience is in order- to save some money, and to learn about what it is they are getting into. And $300 is still chump change in audio, really, but in my experience, it is in the sub-$1000 gear that you'll see the most dramatic differences in quality at different price points. There is a trend towards gear that does everything cheaply, lots of features, but does it do any one thing particularly well? A thing I might ask a kid just getting into recording is 'do you really need sixteen preamps? do you even need eight? are you going to be recording a band tomorrow, because if it's just you in the bedroom you can use two.' So it's better to get two good ones than sixteen so-so pres. I think this gets lost to a neophyte because they all look the same, and the idea of a quality difference is just an abstraction, they've never actually heard it. The other problem comes when they are being told that the cheap gear is 'just as good' when it isn't necessarily. 'good' is relative to the situation, and it often has nothing to do with price, which was my other point. *Have you *used* any of this stuff or are you just recycling old *prejudices? You'd be suprised (or not) by the kind of horrible, decaying bits I use every time I record, and it only tends to deteriorate over time. Sometimes I think, regardless of what is in front of the mic, I am recording the testament of cheap industrial shortcuts and entropy. And duct tape. jb |
#8
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Behringer does it !!!
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#9
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Behringer does it !!!
In this place, reddred was recorded uttering these words:
I don't disagree. I think low-cost gear is great as a learning tool, even the stuff that doesn't cut the mustard as a production tool. Although IMO much of it does, but telling the difference can be tricky. Surely someone with experience just uses their ears. Someone without experience has to hear what's not so good and what's better to educate themselves. While your son might be happy with his strat-copy now, he will run into a plateau with it unless it is an extreme exception to the rule. And if he were going into a studio, or even making a record on his own, if he were at that point with his music, he would undoubtedly want something a bit better. As I said, he's already on to generation three (a very nice PRS thanks very much - ouch!) The key thing here is that nobody is telling him that his guitar is 'just as good' as a luthier instrument or even a top of the line strat, even though for his purposes, at his level of interest, it is 'just as good'. It is marketed for what it is - a great starting guitar. Did I miss something? Who was claiming that cheap gear is as good as more expensive stuff? Really, if all somebody can afford is, say, an m-audio audiobuddy, because that's all the money they have -right now-, they deserve to know that something that costs two or three times as much may sound a great deal better (or it may not) and a little patience is in order- to save some money, and to learn about what it is they are getting into. There's that experience conundrum again. We can't force-feed experience into people. Those that know enough to care come here and ask. Others pay over their money and learn a different way. Neither is particularly right or wrong - just different strokes for different folks. And companies that supply cheap or affordable gear aren't doing anything wrong - there's no suggestion of exploitation of the masses, surely. And $300 is still chump change in audio, really, but in my experience, it is in the sub-$1000 gear that you'll see the most dramatic differences in quality at different price points. That's the good ol' 80:20 rule at work. But at the lowest end of any market the difference between $70 and $100 is as significant as the difference between $5,000 and $7,000 higher up the scale. The higher priced item may not be affordable or justifiable at either point. There is a trend towards gear that does everything cheaply, lots of features, but does it do any one thing particularly well? Such as? Nothing in this thread I think. If we're still talking Behringer, most of their products are fairly traditional boxes dedicated to doing one task. A thing I might ask a kid just getting into recording is 'do you really need sixteen preamps? do you even need eight? are you going to be recording a band tomorrow, because if it's just you in the bedroom you can use two.' So it's better to get two good ones than sixteen so-so pres. I think this gets lost to a neophyte because they all look the same, and the idea of a quality difference is just an abstraction, they've never actually heard it. I think you are trying to think for other people again. How do you know they don't listen to either the item they buy or other items (even those they can't afford right now) before making their choice. The other problem comes when they are being told that the cheap gear is 'just as good' when it isn't necessarily. 'good' is relative to the situation, and it often has nothing to do with price, which was my other point. So who here is telling anyone that Behringer or similar gear is "just as good" (as what?) ? Several (including the OP in this thread) have said it's good enough to suit their needs. What's wrong with that statement? You'd be suprised (or not) by the kind of horrible, decaying bits I use every time I record, and it only tends to deteriorate over time. Sometimes I think, regardless of what is in front of the mic, I am recording the testament of cheap industrial shortcuts and entropy. And duct tape. Or maybe I wouldn't ;^) -- George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
#10
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Behringer does it !!!
In article znr1077375441k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote: In article writes: I think low-cost gear is great as a learning tool, even the stuff that doesn't cut the mustard as a production tool. Although IMO much of it does, but telling the difference can be tricky. Telling the difference gets easier as you gain experience. But what also gets easeier is the ability to do a usable job with lower quality equipment if that's what you have to work with. How many times have we heard Mackie mixers being dismissed as useless because they "have no headroom" or "the EQ can't be defeated" yet those who turn the knobs so that what comes out sounds right can work with them satisfactorily. Lots of truth here Mike when I first started out I could not get useful stage volume with the sm58 years later I am coming back to 58 beacuse they are so singer friendly, and I can compensate for the mud and uneven pattern Also in all fairness I did one of my all time best mixes on a mackie 24.4 in silversprings MD Would i rather been mixing on my K2, SURE, but I honestly doubt it would have sound any better George |
#11
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Behringer does it !!!
George wrote:
when I first started out I could not get useful stage volume with the sm58 years later I am coming back to 58 beacuse they are so singer friendly, and I can compensate for the mud and uneven pattern Also in all fairness I did one of my all time best mixes on a mackie 24.4 in silversprings MD Would i rather been mixing on my K2, SURE, but I honestly doubt it would have sound any better OK, what have you done with the REAL George Gleason? ;-) |
#12
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Behringer does it !!!
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#13
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Behringer does it !!!
In this place, Mike Rivers was recorded uttering these words:
But at the lowest end of any market the difference between $70 and $100 is as significant as the difference between $5,000 and $7,000 higher up the scale. I'm not sure I agree with this. $30 at the bottom end doesn't buy a lot of difference. It buys a decent dinner but that doesn't improve the audio any. $2,000 in the middle end (?) can buy quite a bit of performance or reliability. Poor use of language on my part, methinks. The significance I was thinking of was to the wallet, not differences in qualities of the gear in question. Maybe I should have said if you can only afford $70 you can only afford $70 - and $100 is quite a stretch from there. I think you're right to focus on the middle ground. There's a point beyond which 80:20 becomes 20:80 - ie, it gets increasingly harder to deliver any appreciable difference and the cost of each tiny incremental gain rises exponentially. Plenty of dinners to be had discussing where the 'point' is vbg ! -- George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
#14
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Behringer does it !!!
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#15
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Behringer does it !!!
"George Perfect" wrote in message o.uk... In this place, reddred was recorded uttering these words: I don't disagree. I think low-cost gear is great as a learning tool, even the stuff that doesn't cut the mustard as a production tool. Although IMO much of it does, but telling the difference can be tricky. Surely someone with experience just uses their ears. Someone without experience has to hear what's not so good and what's better to educate themselves. Do you have to buy stuff to get there? While your son might be happy with his strat-copy now, he will run into a plateau with it unless it is an extreme exception to the rule. And if he were going into a studio, or even making a record on his own, if he were at that point with his music, he would undoubtedly want something a bit better. As I said, he's already on to generation three (a very nice PRS thanks very much - ouch!) Damn. One of the American ones? Really, if all somebody can afford is, say, an m-audio audiobuddy, because that's all the money they have -right now-, they deserve to know that something that costs two or three times as much may sound a great deal better (or it may not) and a little patience is in order- to save some money, and to learn about what it is they are getting into. There's that experience conundrum again. We can't force-feed experience into people. Those that know enough to care come here and ask. Others pay over their money and learn a different way. Neither is particularly right or wrong - just different strokes for different folks. Oh, I don't know about that. Someone who has been through a learning process has some insight into a good way to go about it, pitfalls to avoid, etc., and learning 'recording' is even more complicated than it used to be. I certainly learned by trial and error, on my own pretty much, but I had the benefit of starting really simply and learning the basics, and I think there are so many capabilities and options available to the beginner now that 'the basics' are often left by the wayside. When I wanted to record music, I started out with a stereo cassette deck and a microphone, played for a while and recorded myself and other people I knew, added another deck so I could 'overdub', then got really fancy with a radio shack mixer and the spring reverb from the bottom of an amp. When the four tracks got cheap enough, I bought one of those and actually learned about EQ, dolby, etc., So it was a logical, simple progression, based on the technology that was available to rank amateurs. I didn't have access to things like Sonar, with unlimited tracks and two of every effect imaginable, and in retrospect, though I would have been thrilled to have all that, it was much better to learn one simple thing at a time, using gear where the process was transparent and physically visible, and there weren't too many things I could mess up making choices, it was basically either right or wrong, good or bad. Could be it wasn't the best way to learn, but if I was going to be on my own like that, it was probably better than somebody tossing a room full of gear at me and saying 'go for it', and certainly better than spending a ton of money on stuff I had no real concept of how to use. There are so many options now that the learning process isn't as easy to cut up into perfect little chunks. jb |
#16
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Behringer does it !!!
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#17
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Behringer does it !!!
In this place, reddred was recorded uttering these words:
Surely someone with experience just uses their ears. Someone without experience has to hear what's not so good and what's better to educate themselves. Do you have to buy stuff to get there? Unless you know somewhere folks can get to use stuff for the hours, weeks and months you say it takes to learn what it does. As I said, he's already on to generation three (a very nice PRS thanks very much - ouch!) Damn. One of the American ones? C'mon - he's 15! It's a Santana SE-II - still a very nice guitar by all accounts. [... snip ...] In the same way that my kids see nothing unusual about robots landing on Mars and accept the mobile phone as a birth-right, they take to technology like a duck to water. My son has watched me in the studio a bit, picked up the basics of operating the mixers and signal routing and which buttons to press to get sound in and out of the computer. After a couple of sessions he was past the multi-tracking and overdub stage (all by himself, I add) and was back concentrating on his music and arrangements. No excessive fatherly pride here (I hope) - just an observation on the adaptability of the young. -- George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
#18
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Behringer does it !!!
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#19
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Behringer does it !!!
.. The marketing department tried
its darndest to make new potential customers think that if they bought a Mackie, they'd be as good or better than pro studios. Not completely untrue, but somewhat misleading. Most of the beggining live engineers I have worked with mix MUCH better on mackies than Big Midas desks I hesitate to give a parametric eq section to a engineer unless he can show proficent knowledge of what it is and why it is there George --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/2004 |
#20
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Behringer does it !!!
in article , George Perfect
at wrote on 2/22/04 11:37 PM: In the same way that my kids see nothing unusual about robots landing on Mars and accept the mobile phone as a birth-right, they take to technology like a duck to water. My son has watched me in the studio a bit, picked up the basics of operating the mixers and signal routing and which buttons to press to get sound in and out of the computer. Ha ha ha . My wife and I just got cell phones (welcome to the new millenium, Carlos!) and my 15 year old daughter has been quite amused for the last week watching us try and figure them out and fool with them. You know, calling home from the car right outside the house, sending emails to her on the computer in the next room. To her it must look like an old movie of Ma and Pa Kettle hollering into the new-fangled telly-phone machine. "Hey Ma! Can you HEEEAR me!" George is right. To them it's just a few buttons and there's nothing really high-tech about it. It simply is. Carlos |
#21
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Behringer does it !!!
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#22
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Behringer does it !!!
For what it is worth, I got my 1st 2 gold records courtesy of behringer
and junk. So Who cares. it payed the bill so I could upgrade a bit. i Still use some of the pieces, I am selective. Do I expect it to perform like a 2000 piece of gear?? No, But like a GREAT carpenter can tak warped wood and make a miracle, I take this garbage and make it work and work well. That is what experience does for you like the other guys have said. I am not a Behringer fan, I am a fan of spending money on my wife and then my craft. If she is happy behringer is cool with me. If I buy Focusrite and she is miserable is that Focusrite doing megood?? Nope it is in the way of a happy life. Oh Yeah by the way, everytime I buy a better piece of gear, my wife hears the difference. She is a singer and we both make hits together. But we both have decided to choose wisdom over perfection. Hope that helps you married guys out there. Keep the Family peace above all else. And learn to get that cheap gear working miracles. Oh yeah one last thing. As long as there are electronics nuts out there that like improving gear.... I have nothing to worry about. |
#23
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#24
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Behringer does it !!!
Thanks Mike you summarized my point perfectly.
On 2004-02-24 12:15:11 -0500, (Mike Rivers) said: In article 2004022408340750073%giles117@ameritechnetnospam ospam writes: For what it is worth, I got my 1st 2 gold records courtesy of behringer and junk. So Who cares. it payed the bill so I could upgrade a bit. Gold records don't come from top sound quality, but it's good that you got your project started and were able to take it far enough to get record sales. It doesn't pay to wait until you can buy expensive gear if you have marketable talent. |
#25
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Behringer does it !!!
The quality of Behringer has been debated for too long as it is so I
won't continue that debate... My issue with Behringer is their business practises. How many lawsuits does that company need filed against them for patent infringement anyway. I've bought Behringer gear in the past. used it as I needed it and don't use it anymore. However, I will not buy any more of their products because I feel that when you buy something you are "speaking with your wallet". I would rather speak to companies that are at least trying to create new and innovative solutions without so blatantly ripping of other companies designs and then selling them for less as they had no research and development costs to recoup. And if anyone thinks I'm making this up try remembering a few years ago that Aphex and Mackie and I thought there was a third company, all had suits against Behringer. I mean, geez, If Behringer was innocent they sure did a good job of making their products LOOK identical by accident. Maybe this doesn't bug anyone else and I'm an uptight snob, or maybe some people just don't know this history and after they do, they might want to support companies that seem to want to further the quality of audio by innovation and design instead of reverse engineering. |
#26
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Behringer does it !!!
In this place, Chris Seifert was recorded uttering these words:
The quality of Behringer has been debated for too long as it is so I won't continue that debate... My issue with Behringer is their business practises. How many lawsuits does that company need filed against them for patent infringement anyway. Precisely one - and a dodgy one at that. I've bought Behringer gear in the past. used it as I needed it and don't use it anymore. However, I will not buy any more of their products because I feel that when you buy something you are "speaking with your wallet". I would rather speak to companies that are at least trying to create new and innovative solutions without so blatantly ripping of other companies designs and then selling them for less as they had no research and development costs to recoup. Great. Another bozo who speaks before looking and can't read an archive. And if anyone thinks I'm making this up try remembering a few years ago that Aphex and Mackie and I thought there was a third company, all had suits against Behringer. Stop re-hashing old wives tales and go read the archive to see just how wrong you can be. Start he http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 &selm=MPG.192661c49196fb0989705%40News.CIS.DFN.DE& rnum=67 I mean, geez, If Behringer was innocent they sure did a good job of making their products LOOK identical by accident. Maybe this doesn't bug anyone else and I'm an uptight snob, or maybe some people just don't know this history and after they do, they might want to support companies that seem to want to further the quality of audio by innovation and design instead of reverse engineering. Snob? Maybe. Fool? Definitely. -- George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
#27
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#28
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Behringer does it !!!
Amen George. Sharing Ideas happens all the time in this business.
Look at the Behringer ultr voice, it resembles 2 other products in form fuction and layout (maybe 4??) The Focurite Voice Master Pro and the Presonus VXP So is behringer a rip off or did they do what 2 other companies do, put out a similar product at differnt price points. the ADA-8000 is an idea borrwoed from the Presonus Digimax and the Focusrite Octo-Pre. SO who is right and worng and who is stealing. So when Behringer copies the Mackie big Knob and the Presonus central Command at a Lower Price point will we claim stealing?? I mean look at Compressors. How many are layed out almost the same, dbx, drawmer, BBS, Klark-Teknik, Alesis, rane, on and on and on. WHo is suing over that. Similar layout differnt brand specific features. Oh well. One day I will sell my behringer ADA-8000 and buy a Focusrite Octo-Pre. when I have an additional 800 beans to spare. Rock on guys rock on..... On 2004-02-25 07:59:51 -0500, George said: In article , (Chris Seifert) wrote: The quality of Behringer has been debated for too long as it is so I won't continue that debate... My issue with Behringer is their business practises. How many lawsuits does that company need filed against them for patent infringement anyway. what a tired old myth I suggest you do some learnin' for you come to lecture here buddy this myth was debunked in excrucating detail less than 3 months ago, right here learn to use google it will help you stop embaressing yourself George |
#29
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Behringer does it !!!
"Chris Seifert" wrote in message om... The quality of Behringer has been debated for too long as it is so I won't continue that debate... My issue with Behringer is their business practises. How many lawsuits does that company need filed against them for patent infringement anyway. I've bought Behringer gear in the past. used it as I needed it and don't use it anymore. However, I will not buy any more of their products because I feel that when you buy something you are "speaking with your wallet". I would rather speak to companies that are at least trying to create new and innovative solutions without so blatantly ripping of other companies designs and then selling them for less as they had no research and development costs to recoup. If I felt that way, I could never buy *any* computer parts at all, ever, for the rest of my life. jb And if anyone thinks I'm making this up try remembering a few years ago that Aphex and Mackie and I thought there was a third company, all had suits against Behringer. I mean, geez, If Behringer was innocent they sure did a good job of making their products LOOK identical by accident. Maybe this doesn't bug anyone else and I'm an uptight snob, or maybe some people just don't know this history and after they do, they might want to support companies that seem to want to further the quality of audio by innovation and design instead of reverse engineering. |
#30
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"Bryan Giles" wrote in message news:2004022515330275249%giles117@ameritechnetnosp am... Amen George. Sharing Ideas happens all the time in this business. just look at trapazoid shaped PA boxes, a Meyer Sound invention, now used by everyone the V-Dosc started the line array race but they can not cliam a patent as to all line arrays, and all line arrays will basicly follow the v-dosc , beacuse uit is the nature of the beast , not beacuse there is industrial espionage or theft going on So if I open a take out food joint and decide to offer chicken wings should i be prevented beacuse the Anchor bar in Buffalo though of it first? nearly all the tires I see are round and made of rubber over steel belts Humm some one is a low life stealing scum for not making thier tires out of glass and square at that There is a concept of form follows function Behringers silver finish alone is enough to establish it as a diffrent product I do not know all the in and outs but suits are brought against companies all the time , both with merit and without Mackies suits against behringer were found to NOT have merit one suit a decade and 1/2 ago against Aphex was established to have some merit , in that it actually was not thrown out the door prior to trial please anyone that really feels Behringer has established a history of rebadging others designs please do the research before you kick this can down the hill again It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it just is not true George --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.593 / Virus Database: 376 - Release Date: 2/20/2004 |
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reddred wrote:
"Chris Seifert" wrote in message I feel that when you buy something you are "speaking with your wallet". I would rather speak to companies that are at least trying to create new and innovative solutions without so blatantly ripping of other companies designs and then selling them for less as they had no research and development costs to recoup. If I felt that way, I could never buy *any* computer parts at all, ever, for the rest of my life. And that, in short, is why I am using 20-year-old DEC equipment. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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Poor Chris. I gues we should shut down Microsoft because they are a
very well marketed monopoly that waits till joe blow develops a product and then either buys joe out or mimics joes creation. think Netscape Navigator. Netscape shot themselves in the foot when the didnt devlop a browser that was nimble on it's feet when IE 4 came into circulation. MSFT does what they do. Copy and market. We all do it. or have done it at one time or another. Hey Steve how's that DEC doing. LOL Heck I miss my VIC-20. LOL And Lord, all the things I could do with my Sinclair 1000 On 2004-02-25 16:14:02 -0500, "reddred" said: "Chris Seifert" wrote in message om... The quality of Behringer has been debated for too long as it is so I won't continue that debate... My issue with Behringer is their business practises. How many lawsuits does that company need filed against them for patent infringement anyway. I've bought Behringer gear in the past. used it as I needed it and don't use it anymore. However, I will not buy any more of their products because I feel that when you buy something you are "speaking with your wallet". I would rather speak to companies that are at least trying to create new and innovative solutions without so blatantly ripping of other companies designs and then selling them for less as they had no research and development costs to recoup. If I felt that way, I could never buy *any* computer parts at all, ever, for the rest of my life. jb And if anyone thinks I'm making this up try remembering a few years ago that Aphex and Mackie and I thought there was a third company, all had suits against Behringer. I mean, geez, If Behringer was innocent they sure did a good job of making their products LOOK identical by accident. Maybe this doesn't bug anyone else and I'm an uptight snob, or maybe some people just don't know this history and after they do, they might want to support companies that seem to want to further the quality of audio by innovation and design instead of reverse engineering. |
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Bryan Giles wrote:
Poor Chris. I gues we should shut down Microsoft because they are a very well marketed monopoly that waits till joe blow develops a product and then either buys joe out or mimics joes creation. Not a good example. Much as I dislike some of Behringer's business practices, Microsoft's behaviour in the past has been so vile that I think criminal charges would be more appropriate. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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In article 200402252233303237%giles117@ameritechnetnospam , Bryan Giles
writes: I have clients that want me to engineer their corporate shows. they want me bad enuff i get a higher price out of them. Is that bad?? Nope Supply and Demand. That analogy doesnt work. Charging what one is worth or can get is not the issue. A better analogy to what Microsoft has done would be if you told your clients that you would engineer for them only if they also hire your friend to do their taxes. Garth~ "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle." Ed Cherney |
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Ok, George - I read your link to the 300 post thread and realize now
that I came late to the party. I agree with the sentiments in that thread, that this issue should be left in the past, as there are many individual opinons and points of view regarding it. When I am wrong, I admit so. I shouldn't have brought up this recently flogged horse of a topic. However, calling me "bozo" or "fool" is simply out of line. Comments like that don't belong here, or justify your arguments. For years, I have participated and contributed to this forum, sharing information with others as a positive member of the Pro Audio Community, and I will continue to do so. Peace and Balance, Chris Seifert wavetrap |
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In this place, Chris Seifert was recorded uttering these words:
Ok, George - I read your link to the 300 post thread and realize now that I came late to the party. I agree with the sentiments in that thread, that this issue should be left in the past, as there are many individual opinons and points of view regarding it. When I am wrong, I admit so. I shouldn't have brought up this recently flogged horse of a topic. Agreed. However, calling me "bozo" or "fool" is simply out of line. Comments like that don't belong here, or justify your arguments. Chris, I humbly disagree. Like too many others, you were happy to sling nasty accusations around without a shred of evidence to support. I assume you would not appreciate folks unfairly accusing you of ripping off the work of others so why should you regard Behringer (or anyone else) a suitable target for slander? To make such remarks makes you a bozo in my mind. Especially when you write with such assurance - eg: "And if anyone thinks I'm making this up try remembering a few years ago that Aphex and Mackie and I thought there was a third company, all had suits against Behringer." To ignore a resource based on nothing more than blind, ill-informed prejudice is foolish. Again, IMO. For years, I have participated and contributed to this forum, sharing information with others as a positive member of the Pro Audio Community, and I will continue to do so. If you are a regular, you can't have failed to notice the several l-o-n-g threads in the past couple of years. I could turn this round on you and ask *you* how many lawsuits Behringer has faced for alleged patent infringement or give you a list of the company's recent products and ask where they got the ideas from but I won't. Instead, I'll close thus. Peace. -- George Newcastle, England (Please remove leading 'NOSPAM' to reply by email) Problems worthy of attack Prove their worth by hitting back - Piet Hein |
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Bryan Giles wrote in message news:200402252233303237%giles117@ameritechnetnosp am...
The only thing microsoft did was tell a pc manufacturer to license their OS at a certain price point, you had to not put certain other programs on the desktop. SO did they force these computer manufactureres to do that? Nope Dell made a choice, HP made a choice, Compaq Made a Choice. Peoples greed makes them make bad choices. Microsoft capitalized on their greed. SMART BUSINESS Agreed. To disdain a corporation for their "business practicies" is futile. Moral standards have no place in the business world whatsoever. The goal of corporations is the same as for all machines: to function efficiently. In the business world, everything succumbs to efficiency. Even the corporations people would deem "ethical" succumb to this goal. Any person saying that a corporation has ethical business practices obviously has a poorer understanding of that corporation's PR techniques than the corporation's true nature. |
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For years, I have participated and contributed to this forum, sharing
information with others as a positive member of the Pro Audio Community, and I will continue to do so. I will both look for and forward to your posts George(not perfect) Gleason --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.593 / Virus Database: 376 - Release Date: 2/20/2004 |
#40
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"Bryan Giles" wrote in message
news:2004022515330275249%giles117@ameritechnetnosp am... I mean look at Compressors. How many are layed out almost the same, This is the part of the "anti" argument I don't get. You're exactly right. How many ways are their to do a layout (at least as useful one)? I would imagine the first units chose interface design based on ergonomics so that really doesn't give you many options. It's like saying only the first car with a column mounted steering wheel directly in front of the driver can have it that way. Any car designed by any other company will have to have it somewhere else (like the ceiling?) if they are allowed to use a wheel at all. And of course, the third manufacturer can't use the column OR the ceiling. Ripping of the color scheme would be more offensive to me than that. |
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