Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials. I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're in
the camp that they all sound the same............I know with home amps that
this is not true and my ears are the proof. I've tested many amps on my
system and have run them at low levels so they amp was not clipping and I
could hear a difference when I flipped back and forth. Some amps produced
better bass, some better mids, some had glaring highs, etc. Thanks

Why did you bother asking? You already said you believe there are
differences - in home amps, why would car amps be any different - and
pre-emptively suggested that people that don't agree with you should
shut up. This is a newsgroup intended for discussion of various car
audio equipment and different viewpoints about the hobby. If you need to
post just so you can hear other people agree with your own theories, you
might want to try rec.audio.[insert your own name]...

JD

Trader wrote:

Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials. I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're in
the camp that they all sound the same............I know with home amps that
this is not true and my ears are the proof. I've tested many amps on my
system and have run them at low levels so they amp was not clipping and I
could hear a difference when I flipped back and forth. Some amps produced
better bass, some better mids, some had glaring highs, etc. Thanks

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I want to discuss the SQ differences of
car amplifiers that newsgroup owners have experienced. I.E. Kenwood vs.
MTX, etc. I'm trying to decide if I should sell my Excelon and maybe by a
SoundStream, ADS, JL or MTX.


"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
Why did you bother asking? You already said you believe there are
differences - in home amps, why would car amps be any different - and
pre-emptively suggested that people that don't agree with you should shut
up. This is a newsgroup intended for discussion of various car audio
equipment and different viewpoints about the hobby. If you need to post
just so you can hear other people agree with your own theories, you might
want to try rec.audio.[insert your own name]...

JD

Trader wrote:

Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials. I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're in
the camp that they all sound the same............I know with home amps
that this is not true and my ears are the proof. I've tested many amps on
my system and have run them at low levels so they amp was not clipping and
I could hear a difference when I flipped back and forth. Some amps
produced better bass, some better mids, some had glaring highs, etc.
Thanks

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I want to discuss the SQ differences of
car amplifiers that newsgroup owners have experienced. I.E. Kenwood vs.
MTX, etc. I'm trying to decide if I should sell my Excelon and maybe by a
SoundStream, ADS, JL or MTX.

Does this mean I can respond now? Cool. I've owened MTX, a/d/s, and
Kenwood amps. I've installed even more. The older Kenwood PS series amps
were brutes. Probably heavier than their MTX counterparts, since you're
into the weight thing. The a/d/s/ amps are deceptively heavy too. All
three manufacturers made good amps at affordable prices, IMO. I haven't
had much experience with the newer amps from these manufacturers though,
so I'm probably not of assistance. I go a/d/s/ all the way though simply
because of the extensive crossover settings available on their
multichannel amplifiers.

Fair enough... but what makes the opinion of someone who thinks there is
a SQ difference more valid than someone that has done the same
comparison and didn't?

You mentioned the capacitors and toroid contributing to weight below...
chances are much better that the heat sink extrusion on the MTX plus the
various trim parts and other metal items are far more responsible for a
weight difference. Caps don't weigh much, and the difference in weight
from one transformer to another wouldn't account for much in the way of
perceptible weight. Plus, weight is a very poor indicator of amp
performance in general.

In that the kind of SQ differences you are talking about are far more
subjective than objective - in other words, if you tried to measure for
them using lab equipment in controlled circumstances you'd be
hard-pressed to quantify any difference - shouldn't you do the same
thing you'd do with auditioning speakers and do your own listening
tests? Another person's opinion on how a particular amp sounded to them
is just as irrelevant in terms of how it will sound to you as their
opinion on a pair of speakers would be, no?

JD

Trader wrote:

I guess I didn't make myself clear. I want to discuss the SQ differences of
car amplifiers that newsgroup owners have experienced. I.E. Kenwood vs.
MTX, etc. I'm trying to decide if I should sell my Excelon and maybe by a
SoundStream, ADS, JL or MTX.


"John Durbin" wrote in message
.. .


Why did you bother asking? You already said you believe there are
differences - in home amps, why would car amps be any different - and
pre-emptively suggested that people that don't agree with you should shut
up. This is a newsgroup intended for discussion of various car audio
equipment and different viewpoints about the hobby. If you need to post
just so you can hear other people agree with your own theories, you might
want to try rec.audio.[insert your own name]...

JD

Trader wrote:



Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials. I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're in
the camp that they all sound the same............I know with home amps
that this is not true and my ears are the proof. I've tested many amps on
my system and have run them at low levels so they amp was not clipping and
I could hear a difference when I flipped back and forth. Some amps
produced better bass, some better mids, some had glaring highs, etc.
Thanks

"Trader" wrote in message
. net...
I guess I didn't make myself clear. I want to discuss the SQ differences of
car amplifiers that newsgroup owners have experienced. I.E. Kenwood vs.
MTX, etc. I'm trying to decide if I should sell my Excelon and maybe by a
SoundStream, ADS, JL or MTX.

ADS is a high quality company in my experience. I believe Soundstream is as
well, although I don't have one of their amps.

Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

No. More like larger heat sinks.

I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're in
the camp that they all sound the same............

In other words, "engineers please don't respond". Gotcha.

I apologize if I insulted anyone I just didn't want my post to turn into a
debate about how a amp is suppose to simplify a signal and if it has a flat
response you would only hear a difference when the amps distort or goes into
clipping. I was just surprised how lighter my new Excelon amp felt compared
to the new MTX amp I just bought. I'm not into the weight thing but I've
found that a heavier amps usually means that they are built better. This
is not always the case. The design of the circuit, quality of parts used,
etc. all play a roll in the overall SQ. And yes I was interested in
subjective responses. There are many people who have owned multiple amps
and have taken the time to do comparisons. I'd love to hear their opinions.
I use to own class A car amps which I remember as having a richer sound but
I've never compared them side-by-side to a class AB amp so......Anyway, I'd
still love to hear your opinion.


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

No. More like larger heat sinks.

I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're
in
the camp that they all sound the same............

In other words, "engineers please don't respond". Gotcha.

I apologize if I insulted anyone I just didn't want my post to turn into a
debate about how a amp is suppose to simplify a signal and if it has a flat
response you would only hear a difference when the amps distort or goes into
clipping. I was just surprised how lighter my new Excelon amp felt compared
to the new MTX amp I just bought. I'm not into the weight thing but I've
found that a heavier amps usually means that they are built better. This
is not always the case. The design of the circuit, quality of parts used,
etc. all play a roll in the overall SQ. And yes I was interested in
subjective responses. There are many people who have owned multiple amps
and have taken the time to do comparisons. I'd love to hear their opinions.
I use to own class A car amps which I remember as having a richer sound but
I've never compared them side-by-side to a class AB amp so......Anyway, I'd
still love to hear your opinion.

My opinion, based on bench testing amplifiers, designing amplifiers,
building amplifiers, and in general trying to learn as much as I can about
amplifiers, is best summarized by your first sentence.

By the way, your question regarding sound quality comparisons between
amplifiers may yield more responses in a more technical minded newsgroup,
such as rec.audio.tech.

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004, Trader wrote:

I apologize if I insulted anyone I just didn't want my post to turn into a
debate about how a amp is suppose to simplify a signal and if it has a flat
response you would only hear a difference when the amps distort or goes into
clipping. I was just surprised how lighter my new Excelon amp felt compared
to the new MTX amp I just bought. I'm not into the weight thing but I've
found that a heavier amps usually means that they are built better. This
is not always the case. The design of the circuit, quality of parts used,
etc. all play a roll in the overall SQ. And yes I was interested in
subjective responses. There are many people who have owned multiple amps
and have taken the time to do comparisons. I'd love to hear their opinions.
I use to own class A car amps which I remember as having a richer sound but
I've never compared them side-by-side to a class AB amp so......Anyway, I'd
still love to hear your opinion.


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

No. More like larger heat sinks.

I was thinking of selling the Kenwood and replacing it with a
MTX 4-channel amp. I'm wondering if anyone has done a comparison of car
amps and if there is a big difference in sound quality from one
manufacturer's amps to another ? Please refrain from posting if you're
in
the camp that they all sound the same............

In other words, "engineers please don't respond". Gotcha.

"Trader" wrote in message
. net...
Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform" better,
depending on how you define "perform".) Now, they could cheat, and make really
heavy metal covers. But that would kind of defeat the purpose - they wouldn't
put much extra money into the extra metal unless the amp was better to begin
with. Manufacturers (especially cheesy ones) manipulate the specs on their amps
so much that I'd go so far as to say you will get a more accurate picture of
which amp sounds better by weighing them than by looking at the usual specs!
(let the flames begin)

"Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform"
better, depending on how you define "perform".)"

I'd be really interested in hearing your explanation of this.

Tony


--
Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers,
Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and
Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure
"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Trader" wrote in message
. net...
Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood. This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform"
better,
depending on how you define "perform".) Now, they could cheat, and make
really
heavy metal covers. But that would kind of defeat the purpose - they
wouldn't
put much extra money into the extra metal unless the amp was better to
begin
with. Manufacturers (especially cheesy ones) manipulate the specs on
their amps
so much that I'd go so far as to say you will get a more accurate picture
of
which amp sounds better by weighing them than by looking at the usual
specs!
(let the flames begin)

"Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform"
better, depending on how you define "perform".)"

I'd be really interested in hearing your explanation of this.


His explanation was that companies often don't put more metal into an amp
than they have to. This isn't terribly far off the mark, but it's hardly a
reliable indicator either. But I think his last sentence summed it up:

"Manufacturers (especially cheesy ones) manipulate the specs on their amps
so much that I'd go so far as to say you will get a more accurate picture of
which amp sounds better by weighing them than by looking at the usual
specs!"

That's a valid argument. It comes down to - which is worse? Going by the
specs or going by the weight?

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
"Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform"
better, depending on how you define "perform".)"

I'd be really interested in hearing your explanation of this.

MZ said it, but so did Trader to begin with. Check out this review of *good*
home amplifiers. These are in the $10,000 range. Search for the word "weight"
and read the whole paragraph. The amp that weighs 10 lbs more costs $1,000
more. It is the "high performance" version of the amp. But note to begin with
that these are expensive amps, and they weigh over 100 pounds. So it goes.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/a...amp_iiachp.htm

Like I said to begin with, believe it or not, weight is a pretty decent
indicator of quality (including power output and headroom.) Of course, we're
not talking about tube amps here.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...
Like I said to begin with, believe it or not, weight is a pretty decent
indicator of quality (including power output and headroom.) Of course, we're
not talking about tube amps here.

Having said that, check out this. Again, search on "weight"
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/875/
Heh heh.

Well I agree with everything you wrote. However, there are many here who
believe that amps all sound the same. This doesn't make sense because how
could an amp with a superior circuit design and premium parts sound the same
as a RadioShack special. I've personally have auditioned many amps on my
Klipschorns and can testify that all amps don't sound the same. I don't buy
into the theory that distortion is what I'm hearing because even at moderate
levels I can hear a substantial difference. I'm sure that some speakers are
not revealing enough to hear much of a difference but with Klipschorns you
hear everything that is present. My Father in-law is an engineer and he has
a cheap Bose system and it sounds like ****. He laughed when I bought a
tube amp for my Klipschorns and thought that it couldn't possibly sound
good. Well it sounded amazing although I still prefer my SS amp. But yeah
believe what you want and buy the low-end gear if it makes you happy.


"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...
Like I said to begin with, believe it or not, weight is a pretty decent
indicator of quality (including power output and headroom.) Of course,
we're
not talking about tube amps here.

Having said that, check out this. Again, search on "weight"
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/875/
Heh heh.

Heres a link to the Richard Clark challenge
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Trader" wrote in message
. net...
Hi,

I recently bought a MTX 502 Thunder Amp and it's built like a tank and
is
quite hefty. It works great with my 12" sub. My (4) 6 x 9 speakers are
powered by a Kenwood Excelon 4-channel X-614 amp. The MTX is only a two
channel amp but weighs quite a bit more then the 4 channel Kenwood.
This
leads me to believe that the MTX probably has larger capacitors and
Torodials.

Believe it or not, one simple test that is often accurate is to weigh 2
different amps. The heavier one will usually sound better (or "perform"
better,
depending on how you define "perform".) Now, they could cheat, and make
really
heavy metal covers. But that would kind of defeat the purpose - they
wouldn't
put much extra money into the extra metal unless the amp was better to
begin
with. Manufacturers (especially cheesy ones) manipulate the specs on
their amps
so much that I'd go so far as to say you will get a more accurate picture
of
which amp sounds better by weighing them than by looking at the usual
specs!
(let the flames begin)

Richard Clark is a ****head!

Brett wrote:

Heres a link to the Richard Clark challenge
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
The idea that individuals will wsuggest that they personally "heard" sonic
differences between amplifiers is not new .....because few will take the time
to match balance and level. Small differences in input sensitivity can make
audible differences in output levels and I've seen 2 dB channel balance errors
depending on output level which will make device "appear" to sound different
when one is just not operating optimally.

Then again, some do take the time.

Oops, time to start up again.I never claimed that Stereophile and The
absolute Sound were anything other than a source of debate about the
topic.If one can get past their biases for one moment,Explain to me why an
amp should sound the same with different circuits,Component manafacturers,
and component values.Obviously Les should read or perhaps talk to amp
designers and or audio mags,or rely on the ones who are able to hear
differences.Perhaps that is the true problem here...
"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
The idea that individuals will wsuggest that they personally "heard"
sonic
differences between amplifiers is not new .....because few will take the
time
to match balance and level. Small differences in input sensitivity can
make
audible differences in output levels and I've seen 2 dB channel balance
errors
depending on output level which will make device "appear" to sound
different
when one is just not operating optimally.

Then again, some do take the time.

"scott and barb" . wrote in message
nk.net...
Oops, time to start up again.I never claimed that Stereophile and The
absolute Sound were anything other than a source of debate about the
topic.If one can get past their biases for one moment,Explain to me why an
amp should sound the same with different circuits,Component manafacturers,
and component values.

Because in today's world the compenents, even though they are different, all
have tolerances and specifications well below that of human ability to tell
the difference. Even when you add the sum total of these different layouts
and parts the end result is still below the threshold of human hearing. This
has been proven many, many times over not only by test equipment but by
proper listening tests. The physics involved support the claim that they all
sound the same, and the overwhelming results of properly controlled
listening tests supports the physics.

Like Mark has said, your ears are designed to deceive you. And your mind can
easily create differences that do not exist. That is the reason you need to
back up what you hear with the science behind it.

Obviously Les should read or perhaps talk to amp
designers

Been there, done that. I have even done some basic amplifier design myself.
I have never heard an amp designer disagree with the position that I hold.
The only people I have had on this newsgroup ever disagree are
subjectivists, science be damned guys, or people who buy into the marketing
hype.

and or audio mags,or rely on the ones who are able to hear
differences.Perhaps that is the true problem here...

What did you hear?
Now maybe you can answer me a question. How can you hear a difference
between amps (operating within thier design limits, ie not clipping) when
all of the specification differences and operating differences are below
that of human hearing? IOW there is insignifigant differences, meaning that
we cannot hear them, then what is it that you are hearing?

I guess I have found another believer in a mysterious component in amplifier
design.

Les

Oops, time to start up again.I never claimed that Stereophile and The
absolute Sound were anything other than a source of debate about the
topic.If one can get past their biases for one moment,Explain to me why an
amp should sound the same with different circuits,Component manafacturers,
and component values.

Actually, the circuitry is more similar than you may think. Almost all of
them use a Lin 3 stage topology. Most are using heavy doses of global
negative feedback (although, from what I understand, many so-called
"audiophiles" shun this idea for some reason). The most basic design
strategies are employed for VA stages and probably output stages. Perhaps
some of the folks who make a living doing repairs and are more familiar with
the current trends in the industry could correct me on this point - but it
seems to me that the biggest differences in terms of design strategy are
probably present in the power supply sections, preamp circuitry, and
protection circuits.

But all of this is moot anyway. The fact is that in today's amplifiers,
even the cost-cutting manufacturers are putting out products that reproduce
the input signal with incredible accuracy. Sure, in doing so some of the
output transistors, for example, may not be rated to take the abuse that
some of the more expensive designs can, or the protection circuitry could be
more elaborate in some cases than in others. The features, of course, could
be lacking in the cheaper models. The ability to run low impedance loads
might not be there. But in the end the output will still exhibit
perfection, in terms of what's detectable to humans. Especially when you
consider that the distortion introduced by the cheapest amps is still a
small percentage of what's produced by the very best speakers.

(As usual, the industry would be better served by technological advances in
the speaker side of things than in the electronics. Distortion content,
efficiency, and reliability in speakers are in the stone age compared to
amplifiers.)

As for Stereophile, etc, I don't necessarily have a big problem with citing
them as sources. Even some of the most well-regarded "audiocentric"
journals are littered with ads and op-eds! I'm much more interested in the
original research and the way it was conducted than in the name on the
cover. However, it's important to recognize what the intended audiences are
of each of these publications, and what tactics they use to put out an
article to entice these audiences to buy the issue.

Stereophile frequently opts to print a lot of opinion pieces and subjective
reviews without even a second thought dedicated to the implementation of
controls and often no mention of methodology. Also, they tend to
essentially have their own set of beat writers, paid to do what they're told
and produce something interesting to a consumer level reader.

Other publications, such as j.AES or Wireless/Electronics World, have an
entirely different audience, and instead of hiring writers to review the
cutting edge of consumer electronics, they accept independent submissions
that undergo a rigorous review process based on the logic of their
methodology and the importance of their findings. The methodology offered
to the reader is usually complete (sometimes going so far as presenting the
schematics of their testing apparutus!) and the logic is clear.

"MZ" wrote in message
...

But all of this is moot anyway. The fact is that in today's amplifiers,
even the cost-cutting manufacturers are putting out products that
reproduce
the input signal with incredible accuracy.

Yeah, those class D amps sound awesome.

Other publications, such as j.AES or Wireless/Electronics World, have an
entirely different audience, and instead of hiring writers to review the
cutting edge of consumer electronics, they accept independent submissions
that undergo a rigorous review process based on the logic of their
methodology and the importance of their findings.

In other words, they watch the music rather than listen to it.

Yeah, those class D amps sound awesome.

They do, within the confines of the frequency band they're designed for.

Other publications, such as j.AES or Wireless/Electronics World, have an
entirely different audience, and instead of hiring writers to review the
cutting edge of consumer electronics, they accept independent submissions
that undergo a rigorous review process based on the logic of their
methodology and the importance of their findings.

In other words, they watch the music rather than listen to it.

Wireless world tends to be an electronics publication, so the papers
contained within them tend to be focused on electronics. The Journal of
the Audio Engineering Society focuses on audio engineering, so yes, they
tend to have articles based on things having to do with audio engineering,
which includes music of course (listening tests can be found in this
journal). Then there are journals concerned strictly with
psychoacoustics, which obviously focuses on perception. You get the idea.

"scott and barb" . wrote in message
nk.net...
Oops, time to start up again.I never claimed that Stereophile and The
absolute Sound were anything other than a source of debate about the
topic.If one can get past their biases for one moment,Explain to me why an
amp should sound the same with different circuits,Component manafacturers,
and component values.Obviously Les should read or perhaps talk to amp
designers and or audio mags,or rely on the ones who are able to hear
differences.Perhaps that is the true problem here...

Yes, the true problem here became apparent a couple weeks ago.

"jeffc" wrote:




"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
The idea that individuals will wsuggest that they personally "heard" sonic
differences between amplifiers is not new .....because few will take the
time
to match balance and level. Small differences in input sensitivity can make
audible differences in output levels and I've seen 2 dB channel balance
errors
depending on output level which will make device "appear" to sound
different
when one is just not operating optimally.

Then again, some do take the time.

And those who have taken the time and conducted bias controlled listening tests
have yet to find a nominally competent amplifier operating normally in its
linear range that sounds different from any other such device.

Indeed I once proctored a test where a dealer in Florida who said he'd pay the
plane fare for anybody who would come to his store in Florida and watch him
prove he could distinguish amplifiers in blind test.
One of my friends was dying to take him up on the challenge. I said to expect
that this individual, if he had actually conducted bloind tests to be prepared
for him to want to test amplifiers without level controls so that level
matching would be difficultand it would be wise to supply his own device that
actually had level controls.

Indeed when we got to his shop the dealers devices of choice had no level
controls. So the used Yamaha integrated amplifier my friend brought along was
very useful. When the Yamaha was level matched (at the speaker terminals
(Dunlavy) of the Dealers reference system with a pair of $10k+ Pass Monoblocks)
the dealer was unable to reliably distinguish between them using his personally
selected recordings.

So when someone declares he had "heard" sound quality differences between
amplifiers you'll understand why I will remain skeptical until stronger
evidence than a simple declaration is produced.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...

Then again, some do take the time.

And those who have taken the time and conducted bias controlled listening
tests
have yet to find a nominally competent amplifier operating normally in its
linear range that sounds different from any other such device.

Some have, some havnen't.

Indeed I once proctored a test where a dealer in Florida who said he'd pay
the
plane fare for anybody who would come to his store in Florida and watch
him
prove he could distinguish amplifiers in blind test.
One of my friends was dying to take him up on the challenge. I said to
expect
that this individual, if he had actually conducted bloind tests to be
prepared
for him to want to test amplifiers without level controls so that level
matching would be difficultand it would be wise to supply his own device
that
actually had level controls.

Oh, so you failed to find a difference in a test, therefore no differences
ever exist. Furthermore, your anecdotal evidence is somehow more important
than someone else's. I see.

So when someone declares he had "heard" sound quality differences between
amplifiers you'll understand why I will remain skeptical until stronger
evidence than a simple declaration is produced.

And you'll understand why I remain skeptical for the same reason.

Oh, so you failed to find a difference in a test, therefore no differences
ever exist.

If you're making the assertion that a difference exists, then the burden
of proof is on you.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Oh, so you failed to find a difference in a test, therefore no
differences
ever exist.

If you're making the assertion that a difference exists, then the burden
of proof is on you.

No it's not. If you're making the assertion that no differences exist, then
the burden of proof is on you. Good luck proving that.

"jeffc" wrote:
"Nousaine" wrote in message
...

Then again, some do take the time.

And those who have taken the time and conducted bias controlled listening
tests
have yet to find a nominally competent amplifier operating normally in its
linear range that sounds different from any other such device.

Some have, some havnen't.

That's not true. No one has reported a bias controlled listening test that
shows that "amp sound" other than that known from operating faults (clipping,
etc) and known linearity errors (frequency response) actually exists. None.

Indeed by 1990 there had been over 2 dozen bias controlled listening tests
published in the popular press (See "The Great Debate: Is Anyone Winning?" from
the Proceedings of the AES Conference "The Sound of Audio" for a synopsis) and
it was found that power amplification devices level and response matched to +/-
0.1 dB over the sudio spectrum and not driven inot clipping more than 1% of the
time were sonically indistinguishable from each other.

Indeed I once proctored a test where a dealer in Florida who said he'd pay
the
plane fare for anybody who would come to his store in Florida and watch
him
prove he could distinguish amplifiers in blind test.
One of my friends was dying to take him up on the challenge. I said to
expect
that this individual, if he had actually conducted bloind tests to be
prepared
for him to want to test amplifiers without level controls so that level
matching would be difficultand it would be wise to supply his own device
that
actually had level controls.

Oh, so you failed to find a difference in a test, therefore no differences
ever exist. Furthermore, your anecdotal evidence is somehow more important
than someone else's. I see.

There's plenty more evidence where that comes from. The difference between this
anecdote and yours is that the details and conditions have been supplied to a
level of detail that makes it possible to be replicated.

You have fallen into the area of discussion that the Golden Ears use. When you
have no evidence to add you simply resort to argument.


So when someone declares he had "heard" sound quality differences between
amplifiers you'll understand why I will remain skeptical until stronger
evidence than a simple declaration is produced.

And you'll understand why I remain skeptical for the same reason.

OK why not pack up your amplifier that has its own sound and bring it over here
and we'll conduct a blind test and you can prove to the rest of the world of
your case? Afterward we'll make the results, description and details public
and you can be a hero. There are loads of Golden-Ears who will applaud you.

Or you can take the Richard Clark $10,000 amplifier comparison challenge.

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...

You have fallen into the area of discussion that the Golden Ears use. When you
have no evidence to add you simply resort to argument.

Hardly. I already heard a difference between 2 amps. When you see evidence you
don't like, you simply discredit it, which is quite convenient.

OK why not pack up your amplifier that has its own sound and bring it over
here
and we'll conduct a blind test and you can prove to the rest of the world of
your case?

Because I returned the amp I didn't buy years ago to the stereo dealership, and
the one I did buy got hit by a lightning strike. But even if I did keep both
amps (why the hell would I do that? as I'm sure you're aware), why the hell
would I want to pay to pack up my amplifiers and send them anywhere? If I did
still have both amps, you could come over and listen if you want, when it's
convenient for me.

Or you can take the Richard Clark $10,000 amplifier comparison challenge.

It might be interesting, but I doubt I could tell a difference. I've usually
failed to tell a difference between good amps.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
The idea that individuals will wsuggest that they personally "heard"
sonic
differences between amplifiers is not new .....because few will take the
time
to match balance and level. Small differences in input sensitivity can
make
audible differences in output levels and I've seen 2 dB channel balance
errors
depending on output level which will make device "appear" to sound
different
when one is just not operating optimally.

Then again, some do take the time.



And in those tests where the proper controls have been implemented the
results have all basically been that amps sound the same.

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

And in those tests where the proper controls have been implemented the
results have all basically been that amps sound the same.

In other words, since you can't hear any differences yourself, then all the
tests that say there are none are correct, and all the others are false.

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Les" wrote in message
...

And in those tests where the proper controls have been implemented the
results have all basically been that amps sound the same.

In other words, since you can't hear any differences yourself, then all
the
tests that say there are none are correct, and all the others are false.

I have never seen properly conducted tests where the results proved that
people can hear a difference. Show me some from credible sources and then we
can talk about it. All the others that I have been privy to are false from
the outset because they failed to provide proper controls. I know that both
Tom and Eddie have conducted or otherwise been a part of controlled tests,
why don't we have them share thier results?

So why don't you attempt to answer my question? I've asked it several times
and yet you snip it out of every post so let me ask it again, this is the
same one I asked Scott, maybe he will at least make an attempt at a
reasonable response.

"How can you hear a difference
between amps (operating within thier design limits, ie not clipping) when
all of the specification differences and operating differences are below
that of human hearing? IOW there is insignifigant differences, meaning that
we cannot hear them, then what is it that you are hearing?"


Les

And in those tests where the proper controls have been implemented the
results have all basically been that amps sound the same.

In other words, since you can't hear any differences yourself, then all the
tests that say there are none are correct, and all the others are false.

Cite these "others" that you refer to.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
And in those tests where the proper controls have been implemented the
results have all basically been that amps sound the same.

In other words, since you can't hear any differences yourself, then all
the
tests that say there are none are correct, and all the others are false.

Cite these "others" that you refer to.

Read any stereo magazine.