[Keith G]

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play
*mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!
You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Rega... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.

Trouble is, $250 isn't what it costs to put together a credible vinyl
setup, following the instructions above.

snip bits about 250USD

I recently bought a pretty decent TT/cart for 35UKP plus p&p:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/jvcjl-a40


That looks better each time I see a pic of it!

(The Victor Company Of Japan didn't make much over the years that I wouldn't
have been very pleased to own....!! ;-)

[Jim Lesurf]

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
[snip]

We can see that just the turntable + arm alone is very likely to blow
the $250 stated budget. Eyeball average is about $350

Most people don't have good preamps of sufficient grade, so I'll throw
in a $75 allowance for a good used preamp. Some of the turntables above
included a cartrdge, some didn't, I'll throw in a $50 allowance for
half a good cartrdige.

Another point which may be worth bearing in mind is that '78' recordings
may:

A) have been made using various non-RIAA pre-emphasis curves. So requiring
a rather flexible correct network for replay, and some suitable knowledge
or judgement on the part of the user. On this basis a normal 'good preamp'
may not suffice. (Unless the aim is to sample the results and then correct
them in the digital domain.)

B) may not actually be '78 rpm'. So may also require the replay speed to be
alterable, by ear. (Or, as above, be corrected once sampled.)

This also ignores questions like the choice of stylus size and tracking
angle... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

[Keith G]

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
[snip]

We can see that just the turntable + arm alone is very likely to blow
the $250 stated budget. Eyeball average is about $350

Most people don't have good preamps of sufficient grade, so I'll throw
in a $75 allowance for a good used preamp. Some of the turntables above
included a cartrdge, some didn't, I'll throw in a $50 allowance for
half a good cartrdige.

Another point which may be worth bearing in mind is that '78' recordings
may:

A) have been made using various non-RIAA pre-emphasis curves. So requiring
a rather flexible correct network for replay, and some suitable knowledge
or judgement on the part of the user. On this basis a normal 'good preamp'
may not suffice. (Unless the aim is to sample the results and then correct
them in the digital domain.)

B) may not actually be '78 rpm'. So may also require the replay speed to
be
alterable, by ear. (Or, as above, be corrected once sampled.)

This also ignores questions like the choice of stylus size and tracking
angle... :-)



Information and equipment is readily available for people who wish to play
78s electronically:

http://sound.westhost.com/project91.htm

http://www.esotericsound.com/elect.htm

http://www.vadlyd.dk/English/RIAA_an...PM_preamp.html


(That they will have 'suitable knowledge or judgement' goes without saying,
really....!! ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
[snip]

We can see that just the turntable + arm alone is very likely to blow
the $250 stated budget. Eyeball average is about $350

Most people don't have good preamps of sufficient grade, so I'll throw
in a $75 allowance for a good used preamp. Some of the turntables above
included a cartrdge, some didn't, I'll throw in a $50 allowance for
half a good cartrdige.

Another point which may be worth bearing in mind is that '78' recordings
may:

A) have been made using various non-RIAA pre-emphasis curves. So requiring
a rather flexible correct network for replay, and some suitable knowledge
or judgement on the part of the user. On this basis a normal 'good preamp'
may not suffice. (Unless the aim is to sample the results and then correct
them in the digital domain.)

I know some people who do this sort of thing. Often, they just use a RIAA
curve and then use sophisticated equalizers to restore the balance that got
lost due to the obvious mismatch.

B) may not actually be '78 rpm'. So may also require the replay speed to
be
alterable, by ear. (Or, as above, be corrected once sampled.)

Mostly the latter, these days.

This also ignores questions like the choice of stylus size and tracking
angle... :-)

Important questions.

Mr. Worth always seems to put on his rose-colored glasses when he talks
about vinyl. ;-)

[Rob]

Keith G wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play
*mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!
You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Rega... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.
Trouble is, $250 isn't what it costs to put together a credible vinyl
setup, following the instructions above.

snip bits about 250USD

I recently bought a pretty decent TT/cart for 35UKP plus p&p:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/jvcjl-a40


That looks better each time I see a pic of it!

(The Victor Company Of Japan didn't make much over the years that I wouldn't
have been very pleased to own....!! ;-)


It's a cracker all told. I haven't done a big comparison with the
Project, but in a quickish A-B it didn't seem obviously different -
makes yer wonder ;-)

And the thing is - it hardly shows its age. The switches and general
feel are top notch, bearings have no play and it's mechanically silent.
I dread to think what this level of engineering would cost today ...

[Keith G]

"Rob" wrote

I recently bought a pretty decent TT/cart for 35UKP plus p&p:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/jvcjl-a40


That looks better each time I see a pic of it!

(The Victor Company Of Japan didn't make much over the years that I
wouldn't have been very pleased to own....!! ;-)


It's a cracker all told. I haven't done a big comparison with the Project,
but in a quickish A-B it didn't seem obviously different - makes yer
wonder ;-)

And the thing is - it hardly shows its age. The switches and general feel
are top notch, bearings have no play and it's mechanically silent. I dread
to think what this level of engineering would cost today ...


Thousands, but that doesn't mean it isn't available to those suitably
endowed - start here, for an idea:

http://aca.gr/turntable.htm

[Keith G]

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Rob" wrote

I recently bought a pretty decent TT/cart for 35UKP plus p&p:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/jvcjl-a40


That looks better each time I see a pic of it!

(The Victor Company Of Japan didn't make much over the years that I
wouldn't have been very pleased to own....!! ;-)


It's a cracker all told. I haven't done a big comparison with the
Project, but in a quickish A-B it didn't seem obviously different - makes
yer wonder ;-)

And the thing is - it hardly shows its age. The switches and general feel
are top notch, bearings have no play and it's mechanically silent. I
dread to think what this level of engineering would cost today ...


Thousands, but that doesn't mean it isn't available to those suitably
endowed - start here, for an idea:

http://aca.gr/turntable.htm




Where you will see this, if you scroll down a bit:

"The present LP/CD ratio is 63.6% / 36.4%, among 102,000 records, owned by
A.C.A. Members."


- Tad more meaningful statistic to me than what percentage of knock-off CDs
are being bought by Chavs in pubs and at car boots, compared with the number
of dog-eared vinyl copies of Singalong Max that are being bought.....

;-)

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:

Trouble is, $250 isn't what it costs to put together a credible vinyl setup,
following the instructions above.

Look for Dual 1218, 1219. 1228s or 1229 if you want a good
turntable for less money. Riga and Thorens are well known and
sell for more at ebay, although you can find them at swap meets
and thrift stores for less. But there are LOTS of good 70s turntables
out there, many of them selling for $50 to $100.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:

A) have been made using various non-RIAA pre-emphasis curves. So requiring
a rather flexible correct network for replay, and some suitable knowledge
or judgement on the part of the user. On this basis a normal 'good preamp'
may not suffice. (Unless the aim is to sample the results and then correct
them in the digital domain.)

B) may not actually be '78 rpm'. So may also require the replay speed to be
alterable, by ear. (Or, as above, be corrected once sampled.)

The Dual turntables I mentioned above have pitch control and
interchangable headshells. That's what I use for 78s. If you are
going to play 78s, you need a good graphic equalizer and two
or three sizes of stylii. That's a bit more expensive, but not
terribly so.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:

Mr. Worth always seems to put on his rose-colored glasses when he talks
about vinyl. ;-)

Mr Worth is speaking from experience. When I first got into 78s, I
put together a great rig to play them for about $300. My audio
workstation for denoising and mastering cost a fortune to put
together, but the basic equipment to play records isn't expensive.
People just keep trying to make it more complicated than it is.

Here is an example of a low cost, good sounding system...

Dual 1228 ($75 to $100)
Used 70s preamp with phono input ($40)
New cartridge ($50)

To play 78s with this turntable add...

15 band graphic equalizer ($50)
3 mil conical cartridge and headshell ($125)

This rig will play just about anything you ask it to (Except for
Pathe hill and dale records) You can add cartridges mounted
on headshells with more stylii sizes to get better sound quality
with some 78s as you can afford it, but a 3 mil conical will
play 80% of all of the 78s out there with good sound.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , News
wrote:

Is it? What is great to you may be rubbish to others. If there was a
commercial opening for this 'great' music it would have been released on
CD, in the main.

Now you are proving to be ignorant of both music and the record
business.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , News
wrote:

I'm sure there is material never released on LP too - 78 rpm only.

I can vouch for that. There are amazing treasures on 78 that you
will never hear if you only own a CD player.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
I'm sure there is material never released on LP too - 78 rpm only.

I can vouch for that. There are amazing treasures on 78 that you
will never hear if you only own a CD player

Or 33/45 rpm only turntable - as by far the majority are.

I'm sure there's some 'treasures' on cylinders too.

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
Is it? What is great to you may be rubbish to others. If there was a
commercial opening for this 'great' music it would have been released
on CD, in the main.

Now you are proving to be ignorant of both music and the record
business.

Well, there's a nice little business opening for you if you reckon the
world is just begging for all these 'treasures'.

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
A good cartridge can be bought for $50.

Anybody who thinks a $50 cartridge is good, surely is not too worried about
music quality OR their records!

Classical music in particular is a bargain on LP. Beautiful sounding
pressings with great performances routinely sell for a dollar or two a
disk.

I'm glad you are happy with them, and your $50 cartridge then.

MrT.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Anybody who thinks a $50 cartridge is good, surely is not too worried about
music quality OR their records!

A $50 conical/spherical tip cartridge is kinder to records than the
most expensive elliptical, and it's a lot easier to keep in proper
alignment. There are quite a few good sounding cartridges in that price
range. It's a common audiophool mistake to judge sound quality by the
price.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
Anybody who thinks a $50 cartridge is good, surely is not too worried
about
music quality OR their records!

A $50 conical/spherical tip cartridge is kinder to records than the
most expensive elliptical, and it's a lot easier to keep in proper
alignment.

What crap. A mistracking cheap conical stylus does infinitely more damage to
a record groove than a high performance line contact stylus connected to a
high performance cartridge.

There are quite a few good sounding cartridges in that price range.

I'm sure they are good enough for those $1 records you buy too.

It's a common audiophool mistake to judge sound quality by the price.

It's a moronic mistake to consider a $50 cartridge playing a $1 record, is
better than CD quality. But if you're happy with crap, don't let me stop
you, I'm sure I don't care.

MrT.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

What crap. A mistracking cheap conical stylus does infinitely more damage to
a record groove than a high performance line contact stylus connected to a
high performance cartridge.

You're wrong. A conical/spherical stylus is much less temperamental
about alignment and mistracking than an elliptical. Just think about
the shape of the stylus and the way it contacts the groove and you'll
realize why this is. An inexpensive cartridge with reasonably good
alignment and proper tracking weight and anti skate will provide the
least groove wear. It's the difference between an everyday stylus and
one intended primarily for transcriptions.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

It's a moronic mistake to consider a $50 cartridge playing a $1 record, is
better than CD quality.

By the way, I never said that. I just said that you can get very good
sound and a wide variety of music for very little money with vinyl.
Both CDs and LPs are capable of high fidelity sound reproduction. The
quality of one over the other usually has more to do with mixing and
mastering than it does the format itself.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Harry Lavo]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

What crap. A mistracking cheap conical stylus does infinitely more damage
to
a record groove than a high performance line contact stylus connected to
a
high performance cartridge.

You're wrong. A conical/spherical stylus is much less temperamental
about alignment and mistracking than an elliptical. Just think about
the shape of the stylus and the way it contacts the groove and you'll
realize why this is. An inexpensive cartridge with reasonably good
alignment and proper tracking weight and anti skate will provide the
least groove wear. It's the difference between an everyday stylus and
one intended primarily for transcriptions.

See ya
Steve

There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked. Either
the TT owner can do it, or he/she can pay to have it done. So proper
alignment and proper tracking should be a given.

Given that "given", there is no contest. A line contact stylus in a
cartridge that can track two grams or less will play a lot of reps before
there is appreciable groove damage, assuming the record is well cared for
otherwise.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Harry Lavo
wrote:

There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked. Either
the TT owner can do it, or he/she can pay to have it done. So proper
alignment and proper tracking should be a given.

An elliptical tipped cartridge needs alignment every two to three
months. If a person can't do it themselves, they shouldn't use one.
Conical stylii are much more forgiving.

Tracking force has less of an effect on record wear than alignment. The
vast majority of worn records got that way from misaligned turntables
(and chipped stylus tips) not by tracking force. Those things may be a
given for you, but they're the main reasons records become worn,
particularly with inner groove distortion.

I'm convinced that misaligned turntables are a big reason that many
audiophiles complain about vinyl distortion and noise. They go out and
buy the most expensive elliptical stylus and then they track too light,
thinking that the lighter tracking force will reduce wear. Instead,
they destroy their records because the stylus bounces around lightly in
the groove tearing up the groove walls whenever it gets highly
modulated.

My point was, however, that you can get a very good sounding cartridge
for $50.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Here in Ohio
wrote:

On the other hand, there are some very inexpensive Grado cartridges
that are certainly more than good enough for vinyl.

I use Grado cartridges for my 78s. They make an excellent cartridge.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
What crap. A mistracking cheap conical stylus does infinitely more
damage to
a record groove than a high performance line contact stylus connected to
a
high performance cartridge.

You're wrong. A conical/spherical stylus is much less temperamental
about alignment and mistracking than an elliptical.

In fact cheap cartridges are more prone to mistracking whatever the stylus
shape. You would need to review the many years of research by Shure and
others into groove wear caused by mistracking, and the reasons for it Their
conclusions don't support yours, now who should we believe :-).

Just think about
the shape of the stylus and the way it contacts the groove and you'll
realize why this is. An inexpensive cartridge with reasonably good
alignment and proper tracking weight and anti skate will provide the
least groove wear.

Easy to say when you provide no proof why many years of research including
microscopic photograhs, are wrong.
The only thing I would agree with is that a cheap cartridge with a conical
stylus will usually provide less groove wear than the same cheap cartridge
with an elliptical stylus, at the same tracking weight. That's a LONG way
from your unfounded assertions though.

However even you must realise there are other penalties to be paid for using
cheap cartridges!
But as I said, use whatever tin box and thorn needle you choose, it doesn't
affect MY listening enjoyment, or the majority of people who prefer CD.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..
There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked.

In fact it is easy to demonstrate cartridge mistracking on demanding records
with all but the very best cartridges.
DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with that cheap cartridge,
one playing will damage it. The CD version on the other hand, can be played
on any cheap CD player without damage. Cheap speakers may be another matter
though :-)

MrT.

[Don Pearce]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:42:50 -0800, Stephen Worth
wrote:

In article , Harry Lavo
wrote:

There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked. Either
the TT owner can do it, or he/she can pay to have it done. So proper
alignment and proper tracking should be a given.

An elliptical tipped cartridge needs alignment every two to three
months. If a person can't do it themselves, they shouldn't use one.
Conical stylii are much more forgiving.


No they don't - once aligned they stay that way unless you change
something. And of course the kind of record player that uses conical
styli (no, not stylii thank you) doesn't offer much by way of tracking
adjustment.

Tracking force has less of an effect on record wear than alignment. The
vast majority of worn records got that way from misaligned turntables
(and chipped stylus tips) not by tracking force. Those things may be a
given for you, but they're the main reasons records become worn,
particularly with inner groove distortion.


Record wear is very little afflicted by misalignment. Record wear is
physical damage, to have that happen you need, as you suggest, a
chipped stylus, dust that gets ground in, too little tracking force
which allows the stylus to jump. All that misalignment will produce is
poor channel balance and distortion.

I'm convinced that misaligned turntables are a big reason that many
audiophiles complain about vinyl distortion and noise. They go out and
buy the most expensive elliptical stylus and then they track too light,
thinking that the lighter tracking force will reduce wear. Instead,
they destroy their records because the stylus bounces around lightly in
the groove tearing up the groove walls whenever it gets highly
modulated.


Nothing to do with misalignment. The reason why audiophiles complain
about vinyl distortion and noise is that both are inherent to the
medium. I have a good system and have aligned it as well as is
possible. The distortion comes in at about -45dB on a normal level
track. Noise, of course is there on the record - a good system simply
reproduces it more clearly.

My point was, however, that you can get a very good sounding cartridge
for $50.


It is very hard to make a good cartridge for that kind of money. The
lightness and fineness needed to keep dynamic forces low aren't cheap
to achieve.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Jim Lesurf]

In article , Stephen Worth
wrote:
In article , Harry Lavo
wrote:

There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked.
Either the TT owner can do it, or he/she can pay to have it done. So
proper alignment and proper tracking should be a given.

An elliptical tipped cartridge needs alignment every two to three
months. If a person can't do it themselves, they shouldn't use one.
Conical stylii are much more forgiving.

I'd be interested to see some references to some research/measurement
reports that support the above as a generalised assertion about "elliptical
tipped" cartridges.

What you assert also includes no qualifiers wrt conditions of use, amount
of using during the "three months", etc. Again, I'd be interested in some
assessable evidence on this.

Tracking force has less of an effect on record wear than alignment.

I would presume the relative effects would depend on the extent of the
"force" and "misalignment". As above, I'd be interested to see some
references which give evidence for the above and *quantify the levels of
force and misalignment involved*.

Can you please give, for example, some references in JAES or AES conference
reports?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
What crap. A mistracking cheap conical stylus does infinitely more
damage to
a record groove than a high performance line contact stylus connected
to
a
high performance cartridge.

You're wrong. A conical/spherical stylus is much less temperamental
about alignment and mistracking than an elliptical.

In fact cheap cartridges are more prone to mistracking whatever the stylus
shape. You would need to review the many years of research by Shure and
others into groove wear caused by mistracking, and the reasons for it
Their
conclusions don't support yours, now who should we believe :-).

Just think about
the shape of the stylus and the way it contacts the groove and you'll
realize why this is. An inexpensive cartridge with reasonably good
alignment and proper tracking weight and anti skate will provide the
least groove wear.

Easy to say when you provide no proof why many years of research including
microscopic photograhs, are wrong.
The only thing I would agree with is that a cheap cartridge with a conical
stylus will usually provide less groove wear than the same cheap cartridge
with an elliptical stylus, at the same tracking weight. That's a LONG way
from your unfounded assertions though.

In general, when someone makes a comparison between 2 versions of the same
thing, it is assumed that other things are held constant. Therefore, the
statement above, saying that conical stylii are less temperamental that
elliptical ones, assumes that the quality of the the stylus is the
same--only the shape of the tip is different.

I don't find any confusion at all.

Norm Strong

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:

I'd be interested to see some references to some research/measurement
reports that support the above as a generalised assertion about "elliptical
tipped" cartridges.

This is info that goes back to the LP era. Do some googling. You'll
find it. You might try looking for references to stylus shapes intended
for transcription as opposed to everyday use.

Think about the shape of an elliptical stylus... imagine it contacting
the groove a little bit off angle. One side will contact harder than
the other. A conical stylus is symmetrical. It can be a little twisted
one way or the other and it still contacts the groove the same.

Alignment does NOT stay the same. If you use your turntable regularly,
things move around as you handle the tonearm. Elliptical stylii need to
be aligned every three to six months with everyday use.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with that cheap cartridge,
one playing will damage it.

I don't think there's a cartridge made that will track that properly.
Telarc cut certain records WAY out of spec deliberately for the "more
is better" audiophool set.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Mr.T]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
There is no reason for ANY cartridge to be misaligned or mistracked.

In fact it is easy to demonstrate cartridge mistracking on demanding
records
with all but the very best cartridges.
DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with that cheap
cartridge,
one playing will damage it. The CD version on the other hand, can be
played
on any cheap CD player without damage. Cheap speakers may be another
matter
though :-)

I rather doubt that anything that has been pressed on a mass market LP
is capable of damaging a cartridge (unless the LP is somehow
defective).

Obviously I meant the *record* would be damaged!

In the case of the Telarc 1812, you're not listening to the cannon
shots anyway, you're listening to the limitations of the whole vinyl
system.

Exactly.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

wrote in message
. ..
In general, when someone makes a comparison between 2 versions of the same
thing, it is assumed that other things are held constant. Therefore, the
statement above, saying that conical stylii are less temperamental that
elliptical ones, assumes that the quality of the the stylus is the
same--only the shape of the tip is different.

I don't find any confusion at all.

You haven't been following the thread then. It was claimed that a $50
cartridge with a conical stylus at any tracking force, would cause less
groove damage than the most expensive cartridges available using line
contact or any other stylus shape.
(use Google if you need to review the thread)

So, if you are not confused, do you agree?
I sure don't.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with that cheap
cartridge,
one playing will damage it.

I don't think there's a cartridge made that will track that properly.

In fact I used that record to demonstrate the Shure V15VMR capabilities at
one time.
However you are partly correct, I don't know of any $50 cartridge that will
track it properly.

MrT.

[Harry Lavo]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with that cheap
cartridge,
one playing will damage it.

I don't think there's a cartridge made that will track that properly.
Telarc cut certain records WAY out of spec deliberately for the "more
is better" audiophool set.


Actually, the ADC XLM and the Shure V15III tracked that record properly, at
the top of their recommended tracking weight ranges.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article , Stephen Worth
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:

I'd be interested to see some references to some research/measurement
reports that support the above as a generalised assertion about
"elliptical tipped" cartridges.

This is info that goes back to the LP era. Do some googling. You'll find
it. You might try looking for references to stylus shapes intended for
transcription as opposed to everyday use.


I have tried searching my set of AES CDROMs that contain all the issues
of JAES, etc, prior to a couple of years ago, but found no references
which relate to your assertion that:

"An elliptical tipped cartridge needs alignment every two to three months."

I found many articles which deal with other factors, but nothing on that
which I noticed.

Alas, you have not given any references, just told me to look for them,
which looks like you have none in mind when you made your assertion.
However if you do, please let me know.


Think about the shape of an elliptical stylus... imagine it contacting
the groove a little bit off angle. One side will contact harder than
the other. A conical stylus is symmetrical. It can be a little twisted
one way or the other and it still contacts the groove the same.


The above strikes me as rather an over-simplification. :-) However
the issue I was questioning was the claim that the alignment changes
sigificantly in the timescale you state. I have found articles that
do deal with the geometry and wear, etc, but not seen anything on
that point as yet.

Alignment does NOT stay the same. If you use your turntable regularly,
things move around as you handle the tonearm. Elliptical stylii need to
be aligned every three to six months with everyday use.

Yet my experience over some decades of using LP replay systems
with non-'conical' styli did not agree with your theory. Although
it has been some time since I used LP on an 'everyday' basis. But
I did do so for many years.

For all I know, you are correct. But I haven't found any assessable
evidence, not have you provided any, nor does my experience indicate
that you are right. So unless you are able to provide some specific
reference that I - and perhaps others - could examine, I am afraid I
will have to doubt your assertion. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

[Arny Krueger]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message

In article
, Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with
that cheap cartridge, one playing will damage it.

I don't think there's a cartridge made that will track
that properly. Telarc cut certain records WAY out of spec
deliberately for the "more is better" audiophool set.

Thanks to Telarc for so clearly demonstrating one of the well-known failings
of the LP format.

In contrast, playing the CD version is well within the capabilities of just
about any CD player that is operating even marginally.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u
wrote in message
. ..
In general, when someone makes a comparison between 2
versions of the same thing, it is assumed that other
things are held constant. Therefore, the statement
above, saying that conical stylii are less temperamental
that elliptical ones, assumes that the quality of the
the stylus is the same--only the shape of the tip is
different.

I don't find any confusion at all.

You haven't been following the thread then. It was
claimed that a $50 cartridge with a conical stylus at any
tracking force, would cause less groove damage than the
most expensive cartridges available using line contact or
any other stylus shape. (use Google if you need to review
the thread)

So, if you are not confused, do you agree?
I sure don't.

Sounds like posturing to me.

Conical styli are generally a step backwards. So we have a big step
backwards into an obsolete format, followed by a step backwards within the
technology of that obsolete format.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
In article , Jim
Lesurf wrote:

I'd be interested to see some references to some
research/measurement reports that support the above as
a generalised assertion about "elliptical tipped"
cartridges.

This is info that goes back to the LP era. Do some
googling. You'll find it. You might try looking for
references to stylus shapes intended for transcription
as opposed to everyday use.

I have tried searching my set of AES CDROMs that contain
all the issues
of JAES, etc, prior to a couple of years ago, but found
no references which relate to your assertion that:

"An elliptical tipped cartridge needs alignment every two
to three months."

Indeed, there is no logical reason that this would be true.

An associated but *completely different" claim would be that the SQ of an LP
degrades more for a given misalignment with an elliptical stylus as opposed
to a conical stylus. However, if one were to test that claim there would
probably need to be some way to account for the fact that the elliptical
stylus hopefully worked better to begin with. Performance thus had further
to fall.

I found many articles which deal with other factors, but
nothing on that which I noticed.

Alas, you have not given any references, just told me to
look for them, which looks like you have none in mind
when you made your assertion. However if you do, please
let me know.

You are familiar with the word "posturting"? ;-)

Think about the shape of an elliptical stylus... imagine
it contacting the groove a little bit off angle. One
side will contact harder than the other.

Irrelevant to small misorientations of an elliptical stylus.

A conical
stylus is symmetrical. It can be a little twisted one
way or the other and it still contacts the groove the
same.

More likely in either case - when you misorient a stylus you probably had to
misorient and/or misposition the cartridge. That plays hob with things like
tracking error. Unfortunately for Worth's claim, tracking error is a bad
thing, regardless.

The above strikes me as rather an over-simplification.
:-)

Did I hear that in a high end audio salon back in the day? It is clearly a
claim based on assertion, not theoretical or experimental results.

However the issue I was questioning was the claim that the
alignment changes sigificantly in the timescale you
state. I have found articles that
do deal with the geometry and wear, etc, but not seen
anything on that point as yet.

Another approach might be to show that an elliptical stylus significantly
changes the forces on the arm in such a way that the arm either bent, or its
pivots wore out faster, or some such. Again, I don't see a lot of hope for
that even though I seem to recall that elliptical styli did require
different amounts of anti-skate. There is probably some difference in the
forces applied to the arm, but would they be enough to bend it? I don't
think so!

Alignment does NOT stay the same. If you use your
turntable regularly, things move around as you handle
the tonearm. Elliptical stylii need to be aligned every
three to six months with everyday use.

I don't know why the type of stylus would change how I handled the tone arm.


Yet my experience over some decades of using LP replay
systems
with non-'conical' styli did not agree with your theory.
Although
it has been some time since I used LP on an 'everyday'
basis. But I did do so for many years.

I was spinning vinyl back in the days when the first elliptical styli came
out. Lots of us upgraded existing cartridges to use them, even though our
existing conicals were in good shape.

For all I know, you are correct. But I haven't found any
assessable evidence, not have you provided any, nor does
my experience indicate
that you are right. So unless you are able to provide
some specific reference that I - and perhaps others -
could examine, I am afraid I
will have to doubt your assertion. :-)

Hold that thought!

[Arny Krueger]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:03:37 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message

In article
, Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

DON'T try playing a vinyl copy of the Telarc 1812 with
that cheap cartridge, one playing will damage it.

I don't think there's a cartridge made that will track
that properly. Telarc cut certain records WAY out of
spec deliberately for the "more is better" audiophool
set.

Thanks to Telarc for so clearly demonstrating one of the
well-known failings of the LP format.

The comment I had heard was that the "cannon shots" on
that record were really the sound of the cutter head
hitting its stops.

In the day of, photomicrographs of those grooves were published in at least
one of the audio ragazines. They did not seem to show any signs of clipping.

The general rule of thumb is that it is far easier to cut an agressive LP
than to track it.

[Randy Yates]

"Arny Krueger" writes:

The general rule of thumb is that it is far easier to cut an agressive LP
than to track it.

Cutting doesn't have to be done in real-time.
--
% Randy Yates % "Ticket to the moon, flight leaves here today
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % from Satellite 2"
%%% 919-577-9882 % 'Ticket To The Moon'
%%%% % *Time*, Electric Light Orchestra
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

[Arny Krueger]

"Randy Yates" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" writes:

The general rule of thumb is that it is far easier to
cut an agressive LP than to track it.

Cutting doesn't have to be done in real-time.

Agreed, and there weren't a lot of viable options in the day of.

Today, we can playback vinyl at any speed that suits our other needs, and
still listen to it with natural pitch and timbre.

Unfortunately, slow playback won't help problems due to bass excursion, and
will make the tone arm fundamental resonance issues more intrusive because
they will move up the musical scale when we listen.