[Jeff Findley]

"Keith G" wrote in message
news

Me too, but what puzzles me is that instead of *demanding* that people
concede 'CD is better' for any particular reason (??) none of the digital
bigots ever seem to want to know why anyone might *prefer* to play vinyl?
(Outside this ng, in the real world, plenty of people do it seems....??)

Almost within touching distance of where I'm sitting, there are two CD
racks full of the sort stuff I like to (and do) play. It is though they do
not exist - I *never* think to play them! I just looked, there is even a
'boxed set' called 'Smooth Classics FM, do not disturb' and it hasn't
been - it's still sealed in a cellophane wrapper!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cellophane.jpg

It must have been there some years now and one of the *few* things I like
on Carsick FM is the 'Smooth Classics at Seven' prog..!!??

In fact, I suspect over half of them have never been played even once
since they were bought - why is that...??

(I think it's a 'natural selection' based on a genuine preference that has
bugger-all to do with technical differences!)

I grew up in the 80's, so I'm of the Walkman generation. The first thing I
did to any album (record or CD) was to transfer it to cassette tape so I
could take it with me in my Walkman clone and in my car. It's awfully hard
to play an LP in a car. So portability became an issue early on with me
even if it did result in some loss of quality. Besides, there is so much
outside noise in a car or when "walking" that it didn't matter anyway.

Today, it's a hell of a lot easier to buy a CD, rip it and send it to my
NetMD or convert it into an MP3 for portability than it is to record an LP
on the PC and then send that to my NetMD or MP3 player.

Beyond that, while snap, crackle, and pop might be o.k. as a cereal, I
really don't want to hear it in my music. It's also *far* more annoying to
me than analog audio tape hiss, which I don't really like in my music
either. Getting away from tape hiss is why I use MD and MP3 for portable
music.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

[Arny Krueger]

"Jeff Findley" wrote in
message

I grew up in the 80's, so I'm of the Walkman generation. The first thing I
did to any album (record or CD) was to
transfer it to cassette tape so I could take it with me
in my Walkman clone and in my car. It's awfully hard to
play an LP in a car. So portability became an issue
early on with me even if it did result in some loss of
quality. Besides, there is so much outside noise in a
car or when "walking" that it didn't matter anyway.

Today, it's a hell of a lot easier to buy a CD, rip it
and send it to my NetMD or convert it into an MP3 for
portability than it is to record an LP on the PC and then
send that to my NetMD or MP3 player.

Beyond that, while snap, crackle, and pop might be o.k.
as a cereal, I really don't want to hear it in my music.

If snap crackel and pop were all that the LP format did to music it would be
bad enough, but it isn't.

I don't know how people can mention High Fidelity and LP in the same breath,
given how good our mainstream media formats can be.

It's also *far* more annoying to me than analog audio
tape hiss, which I don't really like in my music either.

Well Dolby and metal tape did a lot for the hiss thing with cassette tape,
but there are a host of other audible artifacts. In the days of cassette
walkmen, I used a Sony WM3 and metal tape.

Getting away from tape hiss is why I use MD and MP3 for
portable music.

Either done right can sonically outperform cassette tape and LP, quite
easily.

Jeff

[Stephen Worth]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:17 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Me too, but what puzzles me is that instead of *demanding* that people
concede 'CD is better' for any particular reason (??) none of the digital
bigots ever seem to want to know why anyone might *prefer* to play vinyl?

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece, and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD. Those are valid
reasons to prefer vinyl over CD.

When it comes to sound quality, both CD and LP are capable of
reproducing high fidelity sound. Whether or not they actually do
that depends on the mastering and manufacturing.

The CD format is definitely more convenient for storage and handling
than LPs.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Arny Krueger]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message

On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:17 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Me too, but what puzzles me is that instead of
*demanding* that people concede 'CD is better' for any
particular reason (??) none of the digital bigots ever
seem to want to know why anyone might *prefer* to play
vinyl?

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records.
They are very inexpensive, usually about two bucks
apiece, and there's a wide variety of music on LP that
isn't available on CD. Those are valid reasons to prefer
vinyl over CD.

When it comes to sound quality, both CD and LP are
capable of reproducing high fidelity sound.

I seriously question whether the low level of performance of the LP format
can be called "High Fidelity" in 2006.

Whether or
not they actually do that depends on the mastering and
manufacturing.

No, the LP format has serious basic flaws that have never been resolved.

The CD format is definitely more convenient for storage
and handling than LPs.

The CD format has more than an order of magnitude less noise and distortion
the LP format. The LP format has audible noise and distortion. The CD
format does not.

[Keith G]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:17 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:



Me too, but what puzzles me is that instead of *demanding* that people
concede 'CD is better' for any particular reason (??) none of the digital
bigots ever seem to want to know why anyone might *prefer* to play vinyl?
(Outside this ng, in the real world, plenty of people do it seems....??)

No, in the real world very few people prefer playing vinyl.



Here we go again....




The number
of people around the world that are into hifi is a small percentage of
the music-buying public,


So what? One percent of a million quid/bucks is still a tidy sum....



and vinyl mavens are a tiny fraction of that.
So you're part of the fringe of a fringe. :-)



No-one's talking percentages/fractions (or both) - the word I used is
'plenty'. If you want percentages, every single local 'audio' person I know
uses vinyl, so that's 100% and most of my 'audio' visitors do - let's say
80% (four fifths)....OK?

If you do not think there are *plenty* of people using vinyl, go bid on some
of the vinyl goodies on eBay and see how hard you can get smashed on, say, a
nice MC cart or tonearm in perfect condition.....



What I keep pointing out is that there are well-known and readily
measurable problems with vinyl, problems that do not exist with CD. If
you prefer vinyl, it's because you actually prefer added distortion.


Nope, that won't wash either - for me the LP is a longer-established music
carrier than the CD and it is my 'norm'. If you say (I don't necessarily
agree) that audible distortion has been removed with a CD then I would ask
what else has been removed with it? I would suggest a palpable sense of
'realism' for starters - for me, CD is sterile or even *fake* by
comparison...



That's perfectly fine. Prefer whatever you want. However, don't then
try to claim that vinyl is superior.


Yes, we've heard that a few times before in ukra (where I'm posting) - first
off, I don't need your permission for my preferences and I certainly don't
need your instructions as to what or what not to claim. IMO, vinyl *is*
superior, or I wouldn't use it - I don't care who disagrees with that or
what they prefer and might claim themselves...

stands back and awaits the usual torrent of irrelevant technobabble...

[Keith G]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:17 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Me too, but what puzzles me is that instead of *demanding* that people
concede 'CD is better' for any particular reason (??) none of the
digital
bigots ever seem to want to know why anyone might *prefer* to play
vinyl?

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece, and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD. Those are valid
reasons to prefer vinyl over CD.


Certainly some of the valid reasons - other valid reasons are actually
preferring to listen to them and handling them....



When it comes to sound quality, both CD and LP are capable of
reproducing high fidelity sound. Whether or not they actually do
that depends on the mastering and manufacturing.


Yep, I suppose....



The CD format is definitely more convenient for storage and handling
than LPs.


Nope, try carrying a dozen of each (in turn) for any distance (assuming
jewel cases)....

[Adam Sampson]

Stephen Worth writes:

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece, and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD.

Quite -- that's why I'm into vinyl. It's hard to find interesting
second-hand CDs for much less than four pounds here in the UK, which
puts me off buying music "on spec"; on the other hand, I can go into a
charity shop and pick up four to eight LPs for the same amount, and
I've discovered a lot of interesting music that way. I don't expect
the quality to be anywhere near that available on CD, although I'm
occasionally pleasantly surprised by a well-pressed record in really
good condition...

There's also the historical interest angle: until 1984 or so, LP was
*the* mainstream high-fidelity medium. I can understand how CD can
produce good-quality audio -- that's just the application of
sufficient electronic magic -- but being able to get reasonable sound
quality by dragging a diamond across a sheet of plastic still strikes
me as a pretty cool trick.

(Speaking as a vinyl enthusiast on a student budget, though, I do
really wish someone made an affordable record-cleaning machine!)

--
Adam Sampson http://offog.org/

[Keith G]

"Adam Sampson" wrote in message
...
Stephen Worth writes:

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece, and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD.

Quite -- that's why I'm into vinyl. It's hard to find interesting
second-hand CDs for much less than four pounds here in the UK, which
puts me off buying music "on spec"; on the other hand, I can go into a
charity shop and pick up four to eight LPs for the same amount, and
I've discovered a lot of interesting music that way. I don't expect
the quality to be anywhere near that available on CD, although I'm
occasionally pleasantly surprised by a well-pressed record in really
good condition...

There's also the historical interest angle: until 1984 or so, LP was
*the* mainstream high-fidelity medium. I can understand how CD can
produce good-quality audio -- that's just the application of
sufficient electronic magic -- but being able to get reasonable sound
quality by dragging a diamond across a sheet of plastic still strikes
me as a pretty cool trick.

(Speaking as a vinyl enthusiast on a student budget, though, I do
really wish someone made an affordable record-cleaning machine!)




Cool trick? Is it *ever*....!!!

Adam, the record (fabulous *mint* 1972 Supraphon pressing) this track came
from cost me 50p, IIRC...

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Der%20Engel.mp3

It was playing when I read your post - I transferred it to my 'computer
setup' to grab a couple of tracks for you. (Doesn't do them any favours from
a *static* POV, believe me, so there's enough **** to keep the digital
bigots happy....!! ;-)

If you like it and want it on CD, you can get it for anything from 7.99 to
17.99 from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_nr_...assical&page=1


Words here (Der Engel):

http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/fss/je...ras/wesen2.htm

Not your sort of thing?

Play it over until it is.....

[Keith G]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 21:03:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:



If you do not think there are *plenty* of people using vinyl, go bid on
some
of the vinyl goodies on eBay and see how hard you can get smashed on, say,
a
nice MC cart or tonearm in perfect condition.....

So? That doesn't prove there are "plenty" of people using vinyl.

And again I will point out that vinyl is the darling of a teeny, tiny
percentage of music buyers.




What I keep pointing out is that there are well-known and readily
measurable problems with vinyl, problems that do not exist with CD. If
you prefer vinyl, it's because you actually prefer added distortion.


Nope, that won't wash either - for me the LP is a longer-established music
carrier than the CD and it is my 'norm'. If you say (I don't necessarily
agree) that audible distortion has been removed with a CD then I would ask
what else has been removed with it? I would suggest a palpable sense of
'realism' for starters - for me, CD is sterile or even *fake* by
comparison...

The distortion isn't "removed" with CD, it is never there in the first
place.

Your "norm" is distorted. That "palpable sense of realism" is just
added distortion.


??

Do you ever eat that cheese - you know, the blue mouldy one you pay extra
for....

[Jeff Findley]

"Adam Sampson" wrote in message
...
Stephen Worth writes:

There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece, and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD.

Quite -- that's why I'm into vinyl. It's hard to find interesting
second-hand CDs for much less than four pounds here in the UK, which
puts me off buying music "on spec"; on the other hand, I can go into a
charity shop and pick up four to eight LPs for the same amount, and
I've discovered a lot of interesting music that way. I don't expect
the quality to be anywhere near that available on CD, although I'm
occasionally pleasantly surprised by a well-pressed record in really
good condition...

The lack of really cheap used CD's shows how sought after they are compared
to LP's.

Here in the US, for a used CD I typically pay 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of new
CD's (which seem to run about $15 to $20 US). If I get lucky, I'll find a
used CD I like in the "bargain bin" for maybe $1 to $3 US, which is a great
deal. In the same shops, LP's run about $0.50 to $3 US, and I do pick up
one from time to time.

There's also the historical interest angle: until 1984 or so, LP was
*the* mainstream high-fidelity medium. I can understand how CD can
produce good-quality audio -- that's just the application of
sufficient electronic magic -- but being able to get reasonable sound
quality by dragging a diamond across a sheet of plastic still strikes
me as a pretty cool trick.

I started collecting CD's back in about 1985, years before I bought my first
CD player. I'd borrow a friend's stereo and copy the CD to cassette tape
for listening since this was the Walkman era. Finally in about 1991/1992 I
won a CD player at a Christmas/New Year party thrown by my wife's boss. By
that time I had a collection of maybe 12 to 20 CD's and two to three dozen
LP's and 45's.

(Speaking as a vinyl enthusiast on a student budget, though, I do
really wish someone made an affordable record-cleaning machine!)

Clean the LP really good, record it on a PC as a WAV, then burn to a CD-R
and play the CD instead of the LP. You'll save wear and tear on the LP's
and eliminate the constant cleaning. Plus you can then easily transfer the
audio to an MP3 player or a NetMD via USB. I've done this for several dozen
LP's, mostly ones I got from my grandparents after their turntable finally
stopped working and they didn't want to repair it anymore. I gave them back
copies of the LP's on CD-R along with a little bookshelf CD player with a
remote control.

Just about any PC will do, as long as you've got a decent sound card in it.
All the software I use for this is freeware/shareware (Audacity, CD Wave,
and DePopper). Here in the US, I typically pay about $0.10 US for a blank
CD-R, which is still far cheaper than even a bargain LP. If you don't do
any noise reduction, you even preserve the "authentic LP sound". ;-)

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

[Steven Sullivan]

In rec.audio.tech Glenn Richards wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Back in the 1980s when people used to buy the LP and the CD of the
same album, play them both and compare the results, they weren't
really comparing the two media. Instead, they were comparing the
(generally quite separate) mastering decisions--EQ, limiting,
etc.--behind the two products, plus the particular characteristics of
their LP and CD playback equipment.

So what that posting is basically saying is that CD is capable of far
better quality sound than vinyl, but due to sloppy mastering (loudness
wars anyone?) vinyl generally sounds better? Because it hasn't been
compressed to within an inch of its life?


Yes, for popular music since about 1993 or so, that *could* be the case,
*if* you find the dynamic range compression used in modern pop CD
mastering (which some find to be 'euphonic', ie good-sounding) more
objectionable than that the 'euphonic' distortions of LP. Of course even
today, not all pop CDs are so compressed, nor are all of them compressed
to the same degree. But all LP systems will display 'euphonic' distortion.

Compared to pop music, digital compression is more rarely applied to jazz
CDs, and more rarely still to classical CDs. It is unlikely you will find
classical LPs that match the dynamic range of the corresponding CD.


___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Stephen Worth" wrote in message


No, the LP format has serious basic flaws that have never been resolved.

The CD format is definitely more convenient for storage
and handling than LPs.

The CD format has more than an order of magnitude less noise and
distortion the LP format. The LP format has audible noise and distortion.
The CD format does not.

The LP has 2 significant advantages over the CD:

1. The cover art is much more persuasive

2. You can play a neat game where you cover over the label and try to guess
what piece is recorded by looking at the velocity pattern under a bare
lightbulb. It only works with the classical canon, but with a little
practice you can get quite good at it. As I recall, the easiest one to
guess was the Pines of Rome by Respighi.

Norm Strong

[Adam Sampson]

"Jeff Findley" writes:

(Speaking as a vinyl enthusiast on a student budget, though, I do
really wish someone made an affordable record-cleaning machine!)
Clean the LP really good, record it on a PC as a WAV, then burn to a
CD-R and play the CD instead of the LP.

Yep, that's what I do for anything I'm likely to play regularly --
albeit without the "burn to a CD" stage unless I'm doing it for
someone else, since all my digital audio comes straight off the PC
these days.

The problem is with the first step; I often get second-hand records
that are extremely dusty, dirty or otherwise grotty, and there's only
so much that can be done with a dry brush. I'd like some non-messy way
of wet-cleaning and vacuuming records like the Moth or Nitty-Gritty
machines do. I'm currently keeping an eye on Freecycle for a suitable
vacuum cleaner to convert into a DIY RCM along the same lines:
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html

--
Adam Sampson http://offog.org/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Here in Ohio wrote:
Nope, that won't wash either - for me the LP is a longer-established
music carrier than the CD and it is my 'norm'. If you say (I don't
necessarily agree) that audible distortion has been removed with a CD
then I would ask what else has been removed with it? I would suggest a
palpable sense of 'realism' for starters - for me, CD is sterile or
even *fake* by comparison...

The distortion isn't "removed" with CD, it is never there in the first
place.

Your "norm" is distorted. That "palpable sense of realism" is just
added distortion.

You're wasting your time arguing with Mr G. He considers vinyl through
home made single driver horns with (at least) the top and bottom octaves
missing - driven by an SET amp with goodness knows how much distortion -
gives perfect results in his tiny but excessively lively listening room.
Of course at his age, his hearing is probably the true limiting factor.
Those who disagree - ie most - have no place on this, his own personal
newsgroup. ;-)

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
There's a very good reason why people collect LP records. They are
very inexpensive, usually about two bucks apiece,

S/H, ... as are many S/H CD's. Except a S/H CD has some chance of still
being playable!
The funny thing is that new vinyl is actually more expensive than CD!

Now add in the cost of a decent turntable/cartridge and replacement
sylii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(not to mention a record cleaning machine and the requisite fluids)

Where exactly is the saving?????


and there's a wide
variety of music on LP that isn't available on CD.

And vice versa.

Those are valid
reasons to prefer vinyl over CD.

No, those are valid reasons to play whatever you want to listen to at the
time.

When it comes to sound quality, both CD and LP are capable of
reproducing high fidelity sound.

The CD format is definitely more convenient for storage and handling
than LPs.

No doubt about that.
The only benefit of vinyl IMO is the cover art :-)

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
But all LP systems will display 'euphonic' distortion.

Not so. I find much of the distortion on vinyl records anything but
"euphonic"!

MrT.

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Here in Ohio wrote:
Nope, that won't wash either - for me the LP is a longer-established
music carrier than the CD and it is my 'norm'. If you say (I don't
necessarily agree) that audible distortion has been removed with a CD
then I would ask what else has been removed with it? I would suggest a
palpable sense of 'realism' for starters - for me, CD is sterile or
even *fake* by comparison...

The distortion isn't "removed" with CD, it is never there in the first
place.

Your "norm" is distorted. That "palpable sense of realism" is just
added distortion.

You're wasting your time arguing with Mr G. He considers vinyl through
home made single driver horns with (at least) the top and bottom octaves
missing - driven by an SET amp with goodness knows how much distortion -
gives perfect results in his tiny but excessively lively listening room.
Of course at his age, his hearing is probably the true limiting factor.
Those who disagree - ie most - have no place on this, his own personal
newsgroup. ;-)



Oh dear......

Do stop your snivelling, Plowie - you're like a snot-nosed little kid
whining that the big boys won't let you have a kick of the ball.....

Dry yer eyes and have a look at this (I fished you out of my ****ter
specially):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...5705&rd=1&rd=1


Tell me if you think it would be any good for 'out and about'
recording....??

I'm looking at things like the Edirol R-09

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/edirolr-09.htm


...but not sure if I want to punt 300 quid on summat that might be a bit
disappointing (or might only be a flash in the pan)....??

[Steven Sullivan]

In rec.audio.tech Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
But all LP systems will display 'euphonic' distortion.

Not so. I find much of the distortion on vinyl records anything but
"euphonic"!


Oh, for the ability to make 'quote fingers' online.


___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article , Keith G
wrote:
You're wasting your time arguing with Mr G. He considers vinyl through
home made single driver horns with (at least) the top and bottom
octaves missing - driven by an SET amp with goodness knows how much
distortion - gives perfect results in his tiny but excessively lively
listening room. Of course at his age, his hearing is probably the true
limiting factor. Those who disagree - ie most - have no place on this,
his own personal newsgroup. ;-)



Oh dear......

Do stop your snivelling, Plowie - you're like a snot-nosed little kid
whining that the big boys won't let you have a kick of the ball.....



Thank you for taking the bait and proving your enormous ego insists you
reply to anything mentioning yourself - even after making a song and dance
about who's in your killfile...

--
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Keith G]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
You're wasting your time arguing with Mr G. He considers vinyl through
home made single driver horns with (at least) the top and bottom
octaves missing - driven by an SET amp with goodness knows how much
distortion - gives perfect results in his tiny but excessively lively
listening room. Of course at his age, his hearing is probably the true
limiting factor. Those who disagree - ie most - have no place on this,
his own personal newsgroup. ;-)



Oh dear......

Do stop your snivelling, Plowie - you're like a snot-nosed little kid
whining that the big boys won't let you have a kick of the ball.....



Thank you for taking the bait and proving your enormous ego insists you
reply to anything mentioning yourself - even after making a song and dance
about who's in your killfile...



Another wasted opportunity, Plowie - did you miss this bit:

"Dry yer eyes and have a look at this (I fished you out of my ****ter
specially):"

??

I dunno, you ain't ever going to amount to anything in this life if you
can't get that rotten attitude of yours sorted....

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

shakes head slowly....

;-)

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

S/H, ... as are many S/H CD's. Except a S/H CD has some chance of still
being playable!

Shipping and Handling? As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles. In fact, if you
are willing to pick up, you can get whole collections for free. I have
a storage facility full of thousands of great free records to prove it.

Now add in the cost of a decent turntable/cartridge and replacement
sylii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's possible to put together a good sounding vinyl playback setup used
for under $250. That isn't a great deal of money.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles.

That's cool. Don't think I ever bought a mint one new. They were all
flawed in some way.

--
*Reality is the illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[jakdedert]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles.

That's cool. Don't think I ever bought a mint one new. They were all
flawed in some way.

I *know* I never bought a mint one, new. I used to sell them. Even on
the highly-touted audiophile brands like Sheffield, I never had/heard
one without at least a couple of flaws per side....

jak

[Arny Krueger]

"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

Stephen Worth wrote:

As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles.

What is the formal definition of "mint condition LP".

If its one that is completely unused and never opened since pressed that
allows considerable latitude.

Back in the days when vinyl was all we had, I needless to say bought 100s of
LPs that were allegedly new. I think that many of them were actually
factory-fresh, simply because of the volumes in which they were sold in
those days. If someone was opening them and adding dirt, they had a
full-time job. ;-)

It wasn't all that unusual for a LP to come out of the factory-sealed liner
with some kind of foriegn material or plastic fragments associated with it.

That's cool. Don't think I ever bought a mint one new. They were all
flawed in some way.

Agreed. I never had a LP that didn't have a tic or pop by the end of playing
the first side. Discwasher, Zerostat, Dust Bug I had them all and used them
religiously. I washed records in mild soapy water, sprayed them with
propriatory cleaning elixors, and made my own mixtures of USP alcohol,
distilled water and later on added photo wetting agent. Never heard a side
play without a tic or a pop or quite a few of them.

I *know* I never bought a mint one, new. I used to sell them. Even on
the highly-touted audiophile brands like Sheffield, I never had/heard one
without at least a couple of flaws per side....

That was my experience.

[jakdedert]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

Stephen Worth wrote:

As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles.

What is the formal definition of "mint condition LP".

If its one that is completely unused and never opened since pressed that
allows considerable latitude.

Back in the days when vinyl was all we had, I needless to say bought 100s of
LPs that were allegedly new. I think that many of them were actually
factory-fresh, simply because of the volumes in which they were sold in
those days. If someone was opening them and adding dirt, they had a
full-time job. ;-)

It wasn't all that unusual for a LP to come out of the factory-sealed liner
with some kind of foriegn material or plastic fragments associated with it.

That's cool. Don't think I ever bought a mint one new. They were all
flawed in some way.

Agreed. I never had a LP that didn't have a tic or pop by the end of playing
the first side. Discwasher, Zerostat, Dust Bug I had them all and used them
religiously. I washed records in mild soapy water, sprayed them with
propriatory cleaning elixors, and made my own mixtures of USP alcohol,
distilled water and later on added photo wetting agent. Never heard a side
play without a tic or a pop or quite a few of them.

I *know* I never bought a mint one, new. I used to sell them. Even on
the highly-touted audiophile brands like Sheffield, I never had/heard one
without at least a couple of flaws per side....

That was my experience.

Amen...

When CD's came out, I thought for some reason that they'd soon be
cheaper--or at least as cheap--as LP's.

Silly me.

I actively boycotted the format, (indeed almost all retail, recorded
music) up until the early 90's in protest. To this day, I rarely buy a
new disk. Thankfully, the industry learned their lesson when DVD became
the format of choice for video. IME, they don't cost any more than VHS
did...often less, with comparable technical advancement of Lp over CD.

I guess I taught 'em a thing or two....

jak

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
Shipping and Handling? As for playability, it is EASY to find LPs in
mint condition for a dollar a disk here in Los Angeles. In fact, if you
are willing to pick up, you can get whole collections for free. I have
a storage facility full of thousands of great free records to prove it.

Now add in the cost of a decent turntable/cartridge and replacement
stylii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's possible to put together a good sounding vinyl playback setup used
for under $250. That isn't a great deal of money.

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play *mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!
Not so much of a problem now that I only use a TT for transcribing to CD
though. Unfortunately the cost of a record cleaning machine still makes it
uneconomical for most people to play records, even if they are free.
There is a reason why S/H vinyl is cheap after all, nobody else wants it,
and with good reason!

MrT.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play *mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!

You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Riga... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.

As for flawless LPs... you guys are WAY too anal retentive. You
should spend more time listening to music, not a tiny click here
and there. There's a lot of great music on LPs (as well as 78s)
that will never be released on CD.

Music is what counts. LPs are perfectly capable of reproducing
music very well.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
jakdedert wrote:
When CD's came out, I thought for some reason that they'd soon be
cheaper--or at least as cheap--as LP's.

Silly me.

I actively boycotted the format, (indeed almost all retail, recorded
music) up until the early 90's in protest. To this day, I rarely buy a
new disk. Thankfully, the industry learned their lesson when DVD became
the format of choice for video. IME, they don't cost any more than VHS
did...often less, with comparable technical advancement of Lp over CD.

I guess I taught 'em a thing or two....

That's the way to do it. It's a fact of life that everything is priced to
what the market can bear with no relation to manufacturing costs.

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
As for flawless LPs... you guys are WAY too anal retentive. You
should spend more time listening to music, not a tiny click here
and there.

And the distortion. Varying quality from one end to the other. Wow and
flutter.

There's a lot of great music on LPs (as well as 78s)
that will never be released on CD.

Some, admittedly. Whether it's great or not is a matter of opinion. It
can't be that 'great' if it's not been released on CD.

Music is what counts.

Then discuss that on a music newsgroup. There are hundreds covering all
sorts. This one is about audio - ie the reproduction of sounds.

LPs are perfectly capable of reproducing music very well.

They were capable when there was nothing better. Now there is they're
relegated to second best.

--
*Upon the advice of my attorney, my shirt bears no message at this time

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mr.T]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Riga... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.

Yes, and the S/H prices of those are far more than a new CD player.
Unfortunately a stylus from the seventies will rarely be usable either, and
a new cartridge of reasonable quality costs more than a CD player and wears
out quicker.

As for flawless LPs... you guys are WAY too anal retentive. You
should spend more time listening to music, not a tiny click here
and there.

I was so glad when we got an alternative where that was not an inherent
fault that had to be put up with though.

There's a lot of great music on LPs (as well as 78s)
that will never be released on CD.

I know, that's the only reason why I still use a TT.
The reverse is more true these days however.

Music is what counts. LPs are perfectly capable of reproducing
music very well.

Yes, when that was all we had, I bought many.

MrT.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , News
wrote:

It can't be that 'great' if it's not been released on CD.

78s and LPs were produced for over 8 decades. The 20th century
represents a vast ocean of music- and one of the richest periods
of musicmaking of all time. Simply cataloguing the discography
of the 20th century is a Herculean task that continues to this day.
To assume that if something hasn't been released on CD, it must
be inferior is profoundly ignorant.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Unfortunately a stylus from the seventies will rarely be usable either, and
a new cartridge of reasonable quality costs more than a CD player and wears
out quicker.

A good cartridge can be bought for $50. I included that in the estimate
I quoted- $250 for a good vinyl playback system. ($100 turntable,
$50 shipping, $50 phono preamp, $50 cartridge) You can get a CD
player cheaper, but buy a couple of dozen CDs along with it and you
will have spent a lot more than a turntable setup and a comparable
amount of used records.

Classical music in particular is a bargain on LP. Beautiful sounding
pressings with great performances routinely sell for a dollar or two a
disk.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Laurence Payne]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 06:47:00 -0800, Stephen Worth
wrote:

78s and LPs were produced for over 8 decades. The 20th century
represents a vast ocean of music- and one of the richest periods
of musicmaking of all time. Simply cataloguing the discography
of the 20th century is a Herculean task that continues to this day.
To assume that if something hasn't been released on CD, it must
be inferior is profoundly ignorant.


Yeah. Once we learned how to press that "record" button, or drop that
cutting stylus, we forgot how to stop :-) A LOAD of stuff got
recorded. How much of it is worth keeping is another matter.

[Stephen Worth]

In article , Laurence Payne
lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

Yeah. Once we learned how to press that "record" button, or drop that
cutting stylus, we forgot how to stop :-) A LOAD of stuff got
recorded. How much of it is worth keeping is another matter.

I'm pretty familiar with just about the entire span of recording
history. My collection of records, CDs and digital files goes back 100
years, and includes music of all types from every time period since. I
can tell you that the proportion of crap to good stuff in roughly the
first half of the 20th century was much less than it has been since.
There were more varieties of quality music, a more vital musical
interchange of ideas, and much better musicians.

There are plenty of crappy records, but the idea that all of the good
music from the 20th century has already been released on CD is
completely absurd.

See ya
Steve

--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/

[Arny Krueger]

"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play
*mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!

You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Rega... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.

Trouble is, $250 isn't what it costs to put together a credible vinyl setup,
following the instructions above.

First - a rega turntable. Looking at the current relevant closed auctions on
ebay I get the following numbers for a usable as sold Rega TT + arm:

$238
$549
$340 (composite of sep auctions for arm + TT, no arm)
$197
$768
$610
$475
$340
$448
$475
$341

We can see that just the turntable + arm alone is very likely to blow the
$250 stated budget. Eyeball average is about $350

Most people don't have good preamps of sufficient grade, so I'll throw in a
$75 allowance for a good used preamp.
Some of the turntables above included a cartrdge, some didn't, I'll throw in
a $50 allowance for half a good cartrdige.

Bottom line, it will take about $500 on the average to have a credible vinyl
playback system based on a low-mid grade Rega turntable. Strikes a chord
because that's what I have and the average prices I quote are close to what
my setup cost me.

As for flawless LPs... you guys are WAY too anal retentive.

Sue us for being used to CD quality audio.

You should spend more time listening to music, not a tiny click here
and there. There's a lot of great music on LPs (as well as 78s)
that will never be released on CD.

78s won't play on the $500 Rega setup.

Music is what counts. LPs are perfectly capable of reproducing
music very well.

It seems like used and bargain label CDs are the more economical way to go.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
It can't be that 'great' if it's not been released on CD.

78s and LPs were produced for over 8 decades. The 20th century
represents a vast ocean of music- and one of the richest periods
of musicmaking of all time. Simply cataloguing the discography
of the 20th century is a Herculean task that continues to this day.

To assume that if something hasn't been released on CD, it must
be inferior is profoundly ignorant.

Is it? What is great to you may be rubbish to others. If there was a
commercial opening for this 'great' music it would have been released on
CD, in the main.

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Rob]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Stephen Worth" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr.T
MrT@home wrote:

Possibly good enough for those $1 LP's I guess, but I wouldn't play
*mine*
on a crap box. Hell a new stylus costs me that much!
You can get higher end turntables from the 70s used for much
less than the cost of low end new turntables. You just have to
look. Dual, Thorens, Rega... they're all out there and they're far
from being crap boxes.

Trouble is, $250 isn't what it costs to put together a credible vinyl setup,
following the instructions above.

snip bits about 250USD

I recently bought a pretty decent TT/cart for 35UKP plus p&p:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/jvcjl-a40

Rob

[Glenn Richards]

Walt wrote:

Or to put a finer point on it, imagine the third generation cassette
copy of "Abba's greatest hits" that spent the summer on the back
dashboard of my car. Transfer it to CD, and you'll find that the CD
sounds just like the third-generation sun-damaged Sweedish crooning on
the tape. What conclusions would you draw from that fact?

That "So Long" was basically a re-hash of Waterloo, and that ABBA didn't
get really really good until 1981's "The Visitors"? ;-)

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

[Rob]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Stephen Worth wrote:
It can't be that 'great' if it's not been released on CD.

78s and LPs were produced for over 8 decades. The 20th century
represents a vast ocean of music- and one of the richest periods
of musicmaking of all time. Simply cataloguing the discography
of the 20th century is a Herculean task that continues to this day.

To assume that if something hasn't been released on CD, it must
be inferior is profoundly ignorant.

Is it? What is great to you may be rubbish to others. If there was a
commercial opening for this 'great' music it would have been released on
CD, in the main.


A friend recently gave me a bunch of LPs to put on to CD - women singers
and musicians of the 1920-40s (Victoria Spivey, Trixie Smith, Hociel
Thomas and many more). Alas there doesn't seem to be a commercial
opening for this type of music - so if you're reliant on CD you'd never
hear it. Unless you bump into a nice chap like me :-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Rob wrote:
Is it? What is great to you may be rubbish to others. If there was a
commercial opening for this 'great' music it would have been released on
CD, in the main.


A friend recently gave me a bunch of LPs to put on to CD - women singers
and musicians of the 1920-40s (Victoria Spivey, Trixie Smith, Hociel
Thomas and many more). Alas there doesn't seem to be a commercial
opening for this type of music - so if you're reliant on CD you'd never
hear it. Unless you bump into a nice chap like me :-)

I'm sure there is material never released on LP too - 78 rpm only. Talking
book material on cassette, 16rpm, etc.

--
*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.