[Jerry[_5_]]

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

snip
: Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main
other
: then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could
do on ANY
: system?..
:
: I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...

I don't suppose you have ever come across a murder either, does
that mean that murders don't happen either?

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

snip
: Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things,

Only an issue if the panel is sited in a typical UK location
within the house...

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle. Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?


Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?


Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
message m...
:
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
:
: In article ,
: Michael A. Terrell wrote:
:
: There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan
of the house.
: The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and
: electric stoves.
:
: Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on
any outlet in
: the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an
individual radial
: circuit. As would water heating.
:
:
: A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is
more than
: your fragile rings can handle. Who is going to move a dryer
from room
: to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in
anywhere, but why
: would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

In the UK, cookers *are* normally supplied by their own dedicated
supply, OTOH cheapskates like Plowman don't tend not specify
dedicated supplies to other high rated appliances such as washing
machines (that heat their water) or clothes dryers, nor will they
provide a dedicated supply to appliances that suffer other
problems if isolated, such as freezers.

:
:
: Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
: The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a
typical breaker
: panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.
:
: Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it?
Why have
: different numbers according to what side of a line you live?
:
:
: Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that
tighten
: the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it
rusts. In
: some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead
of
: steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules
in the
: NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others
limit the
: maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences
all over
: Europe, which is your side of the line.

Hahahaha, people like Plowman are as rabid about 'European'
electrical standards as they are about the US standards, "Little
Britains" through and through... :~(

[David Looser]

"Jerry" wrote

Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is the
****ing point,

You do not advance your argument by the use of foul language.

just the non availability of a replacement
fuse -*as others have pointed out also*.

No, "others" were refering to internal equipment fuses.

You wholly refuse to
accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket.

Its not "terrifyingly easy" to find a screw, bolt or bit of metal that will
fit into the fuse holder. Its actually far easier to take a fuse from
another plug.

For the
same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper with
the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
protection.

No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not protected
at 30amps.

They can be, BS7671 permits radial circuits protected by 32A circuit
breakers. If you were the expert you try to claim you are you'd know that.

David.

[Jerry[_5_]]

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" wrote
:
: Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is
the
: ****ing point,
:
: You do not advance your argument by the use of foul language.

Poor diddums, news:alt.moderated.nursery-rhymes is that away
===

:
: just the non availability of a replacement
: fuse -*as others have pointed out also*.
:
: No, "others" were refering to internal equipment fuses.

Angles dancing on pinheads, if an internal fuse can be bridged
there is nothing what so ever to stop the same happening with
fuses fitted into BS1363 plugs (or even FCUs).

:
: You wholly refuse to
: accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
: style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
: when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket.
:
: Its not "terrifyingly easy" to find a screw, bolt or bit of
metal that will
: fit into the fuse holder. Its actually far easier to take a
fuse from
: another plug.

Only in that mythical land called Utopia, in the rest of the UK
it is terrifyingly easy, as you and others have admitted above,
but you are so far up your BBC theory books that you can't see
the daylight anymore.

:
: For the
: same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper
with
: the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
: protection.
:
: No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not
protected
: at 30amps.
:
: They can be, BS7671 permits radial circuits protected by 32A
circuit
: breakers. If you were the expert you try to claim you are you'd
know that.
:

Well yes, and as I said way up, an idiot could indeed hard wire a
table light into a special, dedicated (such as cooker), radial
circuit but that is hardly the designed for easy access that a
BS1363 plug has been designed to allow -people don't even need
any (proper) tools these days due to those horrid moulded on
plugs with externally accessible push-in/pull-out fuse
holders....

[David Looser]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:52:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Wad'y mean "back in the olden days"? That's the same now, except that the
radial circuit for the cooker would be rated at 45A.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Lights on a ring? never met that one. There's nothing in BS7671 to suggest
putting lights on a ring (though to be fair there's nothing to forbid it
either). What BS7671 does now require is the lights and power on any one
floor are not served by the same RCD.

David.

[David Looser]

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.

David.

[Terry Casey]

In article ,
says...

On 31/01/2012 00:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Paul wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:54:08 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Take fares? When last were you on a bus? ;-)

There are buses in places other than Landun you know. They don't have
Oyster.

Neither do I. But don't pay cash on the bus.

When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no
place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'.

You must buy a ticket before you board if there is a ticket office
available but it there is not, or it is closed, you should buy your
ticket from the driver. As in London, fares paid on board buses and
trams are higher than pre-paid tickets

Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
tickets.

No different to London (well, Croydon trams) but Revenue Protection
officers can pop up anywhere and extract penalty payments ...

I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
system is remarkably cheap.



There is a difference between cheap and theft ...

So that you know what to do next time, look here (in English):

http://www.delijn.be/en/vervoerbewijzen/types/index.htm

De Liin operates buses and trams in Flanders. If you are visiting
Wallonia, the operator is TEC (Transport En Commun) and ticket info is
here (also in English):

http://www.tec-wl.be/index.aspx?Page...72402227864348

In Brussel/Bruxelles the trams are operated by STIB/MIVB (Société des
Transports Intercommunaux de Bruxelles/Maatschappij voor het
Intercommunaal Vervoer te Brussel):

http://www.stib.be/index.htm?l=en

--

Terry

[m[_4_]]

David Looser wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

After all, the Right side is the right side...



You mean the French side

and German and...


The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right (or
more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming traffic on
the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly still followed the
old Roman rule of passing on the left.


The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have figured out
to make cars of either format on the same production line, etc.


Yes, its not a big deal. Although I have never driven across a land border
between left and right passing countries myself (its hard to drive across
the English Channel!) I have watched traffic crossing the border between
Thailand (drives on the left) and Burma (drives on the right). It all seemed
to work very smoothly.

David.



Except for the entrance to The Savoy Hotel in The Strand which is the
only place in UK (as far as I know) where traffic enters on the right of
the entrance road (so that the nice doorman can open the side door to
let the customer out)

Mike

[John Williamson[_2_]]

m wrote:
David Looser wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

After all, the Right side is the right side...



You mean the French side

and German and...


The story goes that it was Napoleon who imposed driving on the right
(or more accurately in those pre-motor vehicle days passing oncoming
traffic on the right) onto a continent that up until then had mostly
still followed the old Roman rule of passing on the left.


The good news is that most of the major car manufacturers have
figured out to make cars of either format on the same production
line, etc.


Yes, its not a big deal. Although I have never driven across a land
border between left and right passing countries myself (its hard to
drive across the English Channel!) I have watched traffic crossing
the border between Thailand (drives on the left) and Burma (drives on
the right). It all seemed to work very smoothly.

David.



Except for the entrance to The Savoy Hotel in The Strand which is the
only place in UK (as far as I know) where traffic enters on the right of
the entrance road (so that the nice doorman can open the side door to
let the customer out)

And so that the passengers and driver don't have to stretch across the
cab to exchange payment.

It took an Act of Parliament to make it so.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[m[_4_]]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



Amsterdam in the '60s had a system where no money changed hands on the
trams. You bought books of tickets in a shop. Can't remember exactly how
evasion was policed.


They were honest - unlike the 70% of passengers on the Bendy-buses who
didn't pay.
Hence having to have squads of heavily protected "revenue inspectors" at
various points supported by Police (one of whom got slashed in the
throat around here (West ealing) when confronting a fare evader.

Another reason to get rid of those silly things (and replace them with
the nice new double-deckers rather than the expensive Boris buses)

Mike

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
: Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring,

Assuming the new socket is going somewhere between two others, cut the
cable leaving some spare where the new one goes, then run in new cable to
the next. Or new cable from the two existing sockets to the new. I don't
believe in saving pennies.

now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is)

Crimped connections correctly made are by far and away the best method of
connection. Have you not noticed every single loom on a car, aircraft,
computer etc is made this way?

and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

There are JBs that conform to the regs when not accessible as regards the
regs.

Strange you're putting yourself forward as an expert in domestic wiring by
contradicting the regs. Could you give your qualifications for this?

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
S Viemeister wrote:
There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

And electric cookers?

Depends - quite a few ovens these days come with a 13 amp plug. Although
hobs normally need their own radial.

--
*Why does the sun lighten our hair, but darken our skin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Yes. And water heating.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Ring for lights? In the early days many houses were wired with just the
one ring. Next came a separate one for the kitchen.

--
*The more I learn about women, the more I love my car

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the
house. The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?


Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?


Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?

The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.

--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article , Ron
writes

If you want to see some spectacular electrical fails, check out the
facebook group called 'Dodgy technicians'

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dodgytechnicians/

Also take a look at:

http://www.electrical-contractor.net...p/forums/4/1/V
iolation_Photo_Forum.html

if the above line breaks (likely): http://tinyurl.com/84hv9y6

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article , Don Pearce
writes

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Also the immersion, on its own 16A radial. Though sometimes you could
find it wired into a ring.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article , David Looser
writes

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Single ovens usually come with a 13A plug, double ovens need a radial
circuit. Hobs usually need a radial too.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Don Pearce
writes

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Also the immersion, on its own 16A radial. Though sometimes you could
find it wired into a ring.

This was common once, but IIRC regs changed requiring new builds (or
re-wires) to have it on a radial.

IIRC, the concept of a ring requires diversity - ie no continuous high
loads. Most domestic high loads are for fairly short periods of time. But
heating usually more constant. Water heating is sort of in between - hence
the regs changing.

--
*Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[David Looser]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

I've not met an oven with a 13A plug, maybe this is a recent innovation. I
have a gas (bottled, I'm off the gas main) hob and a built-in double oven
which is connected via a 45A "cooker point" to a radial circuit with a 40A
MCB on the other end of it. Though there is a 13A socket in the cooker point
into which the microwave is plugged, so that shares the 40A with the oven.

David.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete
electric cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most
here would go for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be
run from a 13 amp socket.

I've not met an oven with a 13A plug, maybe this is a recent innovation.
I have a gas (bottled, I'm off the gas main) hob and a built-in double
oven which is connected via a 45A "cooker point" to a radial circuit
with a 40A MCB on the other end of it. Though there is a 13A socket in
the cooker point into which the microwave is plugged, so that shares the
40A with the oven.

Single ovens often come with a 13 amp plug and lead, these days. Double
ones not, as the two being used together would exceed 3 kW.

The 13 amp socket on the cooker point is an older idea - really from the
days when an extra socket in the kitchen would double the number. ;-)

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mortimer]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete
electric cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most
here would go for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be
run from a 13 amp socket.

I've not met an oven with a 13A plug, maybe this is a recent innovation.
I have a gas (bottled, I'm off the gas main) hob and a built-in double
oven which is connected via a 45A "cooker point" to a radial circuit
with a 40A MCB on the other end of it. Though there is a 13A socket in
the cooker point into which the microwave is plugged, so that shares the
40A with the oven.

My house, built in 2000, has a single oven and spark unit for lighting the
gas hob powered from adjacent 3-pin-plugs under the worktop (I only
discovered them when I needed to remove the oven for some reason). The
socket is switched via a multi-way switch unit which also has marked
switches for the built-in fridge/freezer, the immersion heater and the
washing machine. Until I found the hidden socket for the oven, I assumed
that it was hard-wired into a conventional cooker point. I'm not sure which
circuit all the kitchen appliances are on, but I think it may be a dedicated
one, not the ring main that serves the rest of the ground floor.

While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse that
unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I know you
have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather than 1 mm^2)
and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to avoid inductive
heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct current rating and
which is no longer than it needs to be, joined to the original cable using a
proper in-line junction box, is there a problem? Many internet resources say
"don't do it - get an electrician to fit a socket close to the freezer",
probably on a brand-new radial line, since it is a faff rerouting a ring
main to include an additional socket. But SWMBO's father, a qualified
electrician, said it's a load of crap having a blanket ban, and is only to
guard against numpties trying to use extension cable that is rated too low.

Is it a no-no to have a spur coming off a ring main? When I was fitting a
replacement mains socket in SWMBO's house to replace one whose faceplate had
cracked, I was surprised to find *three* cables (ie 3 live, 3 neutral, 3
earth wires). I duly connected all of them to the new socket, but should the
extra socket (wherever it may be) really be connected via the ring main?
It's a 1930s house, rewired with red/black/green wiring rather than
brown/blue/green-and-yellow, though I gather the wiring colours are only
mandatory for equipment cable and that it's quite normal to find even modern
house wiring (lighting, ring mains) in the "old" colours, so it's difficult
to deduce when the rewiring was done and therefore what building regs
applied at the time.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Mortimer wrote:
While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I
know you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather
than 1 mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to
avoid inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct
current rating and which is no longer than it needs to be, joined to
the original cable using a proper in-line junction box, is there a
problem? Many internet resources say "don't do it - get an electrician
to fit a socket close to the freezer", probably on a brand-new radial
line, since it is a faff rerouting a ring main to include an additional
socket. But SWMBO's father, a qualified electrician, said it's a load
of crap having a blanket ban, and is only to guard against numpties
trying to use extension cable that is rated too low.

Simplest way would be to buy a 13 amp extension lead with a single outlet
in one of the sheds or whatever and cut to length, re-using the plug
supplied with it. Most aren't moulded on.

Is it a no-no to have a spur coming off a ring main? When I was fitting
a replacement mains socket in SWMBO's house to replace one whose
faceplate had cracked, I was surprised to find *three* cables (ie 3
live, 3 neutral, 3 earth wires). I duly connected all of them to the
new socket, but should the extra socket (wherever it may be) really be
connected via the ring main? It's a 1930s house, rewired with
red/black/green wiring rather than brown/blue/green-and-yellow, though
I gather the wiring colours are only mandatory for equipment cable and
that it's quite normal to find even modern house wiring (lighting, ring
mains) in the "old" colours, so it's difficult to deduce when the
rewiring was done and therefore what building regs applied at the time.

You are allowed (current regs) a spur with one double socket maximum. Not
two singles.

--
*Heart attacks... God's revenge for eating his animal friends

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message , Michael A.
Terrell writes:

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
[]
**** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you?


Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


What has the Nippon Electric Company done?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book. -Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator and writer (106-43 BCE)

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message , Mortimer
writes:
[]
While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I
know you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather
than 1 mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to
avoid inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct
[]
I don't _think_ it's _inductive_ heating they're that concerned about -
just air cooling, or rather the lack of it when a cable is wound onto a
reel (and tightly, as it often is).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a
book. -Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator and writer (106-43 BCE)

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Mortimer
writes:
[]
While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I know
you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather than 1
mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to avoid
inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct
[]
I don't _think_ it's _inductive_ heating they're that concerned about -
just air cooling, or rather the lack of it when a cable is wound onto a
reel (and tightly, as it often is).
--

Indeed. It's a common error to assume that the reason that cable drums
should be unwound when in use is something to do with inductance. Possibly
because its a coil, and wire is commonly coiled up to create an inductor.
But in this case it is, as you say, simply a matter of air cooling, or more
to the point the lack of it. The inductance of an air-cored coil of
relatively few turns would be insignificant at 50Hz and in any case the
inductances of the two conductors largely cancel out.

David.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , Michael A.
Terrell writes:

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
[]
**** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you?


Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


What has the Nippon Electric Company done?


About as much as Lucas.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

David Looser wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.


What makes you think they don't? I have seen exactly ONE dryer
installed without an outlet, and it was directly under the fuse box.

Older dryer outlets & plugs were three pin, the current standard is a
four pin design, to include the safety ground.

The same goes for electric stoves, but those are usually 50A
connectors, instead of 20 or 30A.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the
house. The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.


They are a single unit here. If natural gas is availible, you can
chose either. If not, you have the chioce ov very expensive propane, or
electric stoves.


Who is going to move a dryer from room to room? The refrigerator or
freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why would you want them
anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?


Yes, three so far. You've never built a house? Or an office
building with multiple kitchens?


Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?


The same reasons different European countries have different
standards. Some areas have plenty of natural gaas, and only require a
100 to 150 A service for new construction, or upgrades. Other areas
require 200 A service. The number, and location of outlets can vary,
becasue some stic to the NEC, while others insist on extras, like on
both sides of a narrow hallway, even though it is less than 10 feet.
Some materails are banned in some areas, becasue of high humdity, or
dsalt air. Others require conduit, becasue only IBEW union workers are
allowed to do ANY electrical or electronics cabling.


The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 1/3/2012 1:53 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Phil wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger"

I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
Domain measurement systems for market.

The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
Hachette Publications property stickers on them.


** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?

Anyhow - here's a pic of one:

http://www.nessales.com/ebay/13318/A... Pic%20(0).JPG


That looks very much like one of the two units I have been working with. It
is the later model with optical digital I/O. The earlier version is
coax-based and used RCA jacks.



WOW, what a great thread. We could have a record here, just as long as
we don't keep on subject. I think DB's are nonsense, what's wrong with a
massive ring and sliced taps ??

Rheilly

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Ahem... the posting to which you reply to deals with UK ring
circuits.
Frankly, anyone who recommmends the practice of wiring as employed in
the US, is having a laugh.
American wiring plus wooden houses... jeez.

[Michael A. Terrell]

wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:32:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Are you really that stupid, or do you just play a fool on Usenet?
The US National Electrical Code is online. It goes into great detail
about what can and can not be done. Read it, and see if you can learn
anything.

Ahem... the posting to which you reply to deals with UK ring
circuits.
Frankly, anyone who recommmends the practice of wiring as employed in
the US, is having a laugh.
American wiring plus wooden houses... jeez.


Your opinion is noted. And laughed at.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

wrote in message
...

American wiring plus wooden houses... jeez.

All things considered it works very well, at a cost in copper.

My estimated death rate in the UK due to all fires was about 0.8 per
100,000 in the last year for which I have reports, and was (2006) and 0.96
in the US (2007)

I have not yet been able to get an exact comparison of death rate due to
structure fires in the same year but US homes are not the death traps that
seems to be suggested above.

US's death rate due to structure fires continues to be declining rapidly for
new buildings every year, of which we are still building quite a few. The UK
is also enjoying improvements in this area, but with slower rates of
improvement and probably lower rates of new construction. Both the UK and
the US show disappointing results for structures built in the 1950s and
1960s.

[Johny B Good]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:28:20 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article
,
wrote:
n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.


Just for completeness ( I know I'm very late to this party but it's an
important point), Those 110v transformers produce a bi-phase supply of
55-0-55 Vac. The two lives provide the 110v but the shock hazard wrt
grounding is reduced to a mere 55v which is merely very unpleasant in the
wet if the user happens to provide a path to earth.


--
Regards JB Good

[Brian Gaff]

Its about what you can get from a ringing phone line.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Johny B Good" wrote in message
newsp.waogdlbfkd9x7s@fred...
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:28:20 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article
,
wrote:
n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.


Just for completeness ( I know I'm very late to this party but it's an
important point), Those 110v transformers produce a bi-phase supply of
55-0-55 Vac. The two lives provide the 110v but the shock hazard wrt
grounding is reduced to a mere 55v which is merely very unpleasant in the
wet if the user happens to provide a path to earth.


--
Regards JB Good

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

"Johny B Good" writes:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:28:20 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article
,
wrote:
n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.


Just for completeness ( I know I'm very late to this party but it's
an important point), Those 110v transformers produce a bi-phase supply
of 55-0-55 Vac. The two lives provide the 110v but the shock hazard
wrt grounding is reduced to a mere 55v which is merely very unpleasant
in the wet if the user happens to provide a path to earth.

Wrong. It's about current. Here's an excerpt from OSHA:


Below 1 milliampere Generally not perceptible
1 milliampere Faint tingle
5 milliamperes Slight shock felt; not painful but
disturbing. Average individual can
let go. Strong involuntary reactions
can lead to other injuries.
625 milliamperes (women) Painful shock, loss of muscular
control*
930 milliamperes (men) The freezing current or let-go
range.* Individual cannot let go,
but can be thrown away from the
circuit if extensor muscles are
stimulated.
50150 milliamperes Extreme pain, respiratory arrest,
severe muscular contractions.
Death is possible.
1,0004,300 milliamperes Rhythmic pumping action of
the heart ceases. Muscular
contraction and nerve damage
occur; death likely.
10,000 milliamperes Cardiac arrest, severe burns; death
probable
--
Randy Yates
DSP/Firmware Engineer
919-577-9882 (H)
919-720-2916 (C)

[Randy Yates[_2_]]

Sorry, a lot of that paste below was gibberish. Here's
the link:

osha.gov/Publications/osha3075.pdf

--Randy

Randy Yates writes:

"Johny B Good" writes:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:28:20 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article
,
wrote:
n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.


Just for completeness ( I know I'm very late to this party but it's
an important point), Those 110v transformers produce a bi-phase supply
of 55-0-55 Vac. The two lives provide the 110v but the shock hazard
wrt grounding is reduced to a mere 55v which is merely very unpleasant
in the wet if the user happens to provide a path to earth.

Wrong. It's about current. Here's an excerpt from OSHA:


Below 1 milliampere Generally not perceptible
1 milliampere Faint tingle
5 milliamperes Slight shock felt; not painful but
disturbing. Average individual can
let go. Strong involuntary reactions
can lead to other injuries.
625 milliamperes (women) Painful shock, loss of muscular
control*
930 milliamperes (men) The freezing current or let-go
range.* Individual cannot let go,
but can be thrown away from the
circuit if extensor muscles are
stimulated.
50150 milliamperes Extreme pain, respiratory arrest,
severe muscular contractions.
Death is possible.
1,0004,300 milliamperes Rhythmic pumping action of
the heart ceases. Muscular
contraction and nerve damage
occur; death likely.
10,000 milliamperes Cardiac arrest, severe burns; death
probable

--
Randy Yates
DSP/Firmware Engineer
919-577-9882 (H)
919-720-2916 (C)

[William Sommerwerck]

The larger numbers look very wrong. You don't need anywhere nearly that much
current to kill someone.

1,0004,300 mA? Not only is it overly precise, but 1000A will cook someone,
not just kill them.

[Robert Macy[_2_]]

On Apr 7, 3:27*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
The larger numbers look very wrong. You don't need anywhere nearly that much
current to kill someone.

1,0004,300 mA? Not only is it overly precise, but 1000A will cook someone,
not just kill them.

good eye

that should have read 1000-4300 milliamperes
go to the URL
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3075.pdf