[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

In 1972 (ten years earlier) I worked with 16 bit, 200
KHz DACs that had 1/2 bit linearity and monotonicity.

I'm curious about this experience. In what way were you
using this gear?

It was part of an EAI 680 hybrid computer system. The other major component
was an IBM 1130 computer. We used it to solve differential equations and do
simulations, some of which related directly to audio. We also used it as a
digital record/playback system for recordings of music. It sounded pretty
good!

[John Nunes]

On 8/11/2010 4:34 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

You actually HAVE one of these?

The less expensive one, called a Dragon CT. It doesn't tell you how
much the record is off, but it corrects to the same degree.

I read that other than it's ability to
somewhat correct eccentric records, it's not a very good turntable.

Did you actually read the page I posted? Centering to .01mm is not an
"ability to somewhat correct eccentric records." (emphasis mine)

Do you believe everything you read or hear? In the highly myth laced
audio biz, that's not very wise at all.

I "heard" that if you take this bolt, and put it on the chassis, your
car will start."

;-)

Since it
doesn't correct for warp wow (as far as I remember), it only does half the
job in my opinion. Do you have any comment on the perception that it's not a
very good 'table or the fact that it doesn't correct for warps (with some
kind of vacuum hod-down)? I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of someone
who actually has one.

They are both very good tables. Just because it doesn't have cult
status in the current scheme of things doesn't mean the contrary.
Current cult status is often based on ideas that have no falsifiability
and one "just has to believe" - like religion. Been there, done that,
not satisfying, not rational, and wastes a lot of money in what can be
an already expensive hobby.

I use a soft sticky mat with a clamp to help control non-flat records.
Some are not redeemable, even with vacuum hold down. Such is life with
an obsolete, highly flawed storage medium that has a lot of music to
draw from.

[John Nunes]

On 8/12/2010 3:56 PM, Dick Pierce wrote:

Of the several HUNDRED LP recordings I have Baroque organ and
harpsichord music, I would say about 30% of them exhibit pitch
instability that is audibly detectable, some almost to the point
of annoyance, and the exhibit this no matter what turntable they
are played on. I'm not talking warp wow, since I store can care
for them well. I'm not even talking, in many cases, off-center
punches, because the tone arm exhibits no detectable periodic
horizontal movement. I'm talking audible pitch instability which
seems to be intrinsic to the record itself.

Then what would be the mechanism for this?

So, let me get this straight, according to you, the solution
to the pitch instability found in records is, to quote you
now, that "one simply doesn't play them."

That's your solution to LP pitch instability?

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against musically important
historic recordings because they aren't exciting or interesting "audio"
material. Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving about
"musicality" and so on.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 12, 3:56=A0pm, Dick Pierce wrote:
Audio Empire wrote:
I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. =A0It's called pitch stability. =A0Sneezes and co=
ughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. =A0Screwing up the pitch stabilit=
y is.

Yessssss, and...??????? Modern turntables in good working order don't h=
ave
pitch instability and while eccentric and warped records don't, they're
pretty rare and one simply doesn't play them.

Really? What kind of *!%%* attitude is that?

You're saying that the I should "simply not play" the LP I
have of Toscanini's Beethoven 9th because it is "eccentric,
warped and pretty rare?" The original Columbia recordings I have
of Albert Schweitzer performing the Bach Schubler Chorales should
as well be relegated to the dust bin?

Of the several HUNDRED LP recordings I have Baroque organ and
harpsichord music, I would say about 30% of them exhibit pitch
instability that is audibly detectable, some almost to the point
of annoyance, and the exhibit this no matter what turntable they
are played on. I'm not talking warp wow, since I store can care
for them well. I'm not even talking, in many cases, off-center
punches, because the tone arm exhibits no detectable periodic
horizontal movement. I'm talking audible pitch instability which
seems to be intrinsic to the record itself.

For many of them, no CD equivalent exists, for others, the
pitch instability simply does not exist in ANY detectable fashion
on the CD version.

So, let me get this straight, according to you, the solution
to the pitch instability found in records is, to quote you
now, that "one simply doesn't play them."

That's your solution to LP pitch instability?


I think you make some very valid points Dick. I really think it was a
bit of a slip there on Audio Empire's part. I don't think he meant to
suggest others not play such records only that he chooses not to and
if "one" finds those distortions intolerable *then* one can make the
same choice. This speaks to a point we can't over look in any analysis
of the variius media. *If* there is a particular title one can't live
without and it is only released in a crappy version be LP, CD or SACD
then one has no choice bu to live with problematic sound quality with
that title. The inherent sonic signatures of the various media are
only an issue when we have a choice. And even then more often than not
other factors that are not directly related to the media have greater
impact on such choices. The solution to pitch instability per se is
not really the big issue. The big issue is the solution to what is
going to give any given listener the best aesthetic experience for any
given title that person chooses to own. Even when there are options
the options will rarely offer the perfect solution. So our solutions
come in the form of best set of compramises in mosts cases. The
dismissal of any format is a self imposed limitation on these choices.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 13, 4:04=A0pm, John Nunes wrote:


Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against musically important
historic recordings because they aren't exciting or interesting "audio"
material. =A0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving about
"musicality" and so on.

Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening. I suggest you
take a look at the music being reissued by audiophile labels and then
get back to us.


http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=3Dlabels
Check out the following
Alto
Alto (Decca)
Alto (EMI)
Analogue Productions
Analogue Productions (Blue Note)
Analogue Productions (Fantasy)
Analogue Productions (Impulse)
Analogue Productions (Verve)
Analogue Productions Blues
Analogue Productions Jazz
Analogue Productions Revival
Athena
BoxStar (Hungaroton)
BoxStar (Liberty)
Cisco
Cisco (Capitol)
Cisco (Columbia)
Cisco (Ewe)
Cisco (King Super Analogue)
Cisco (RCA Living Stereo)
Cisco (RCA)
Cisco (Shout Factory)
Cisco (Three Blind Mice)
Cisco (Vanguard Records)
Classic Records
Classic Records (A&M)
Classic Records (Ardent)
Classic Records (Arista)
Classic Records (Atlantic)
Classic Records (Audio Fidelity)
Classic Records (Bizarre)
Classic Records (Blue Note)
Classic Records (Brunswick)
Classic Records (Capricorn)
Classic Records (Chess)
Classic Records (Colgems)
Classic Records (Columbia)
Classic Records (Decca)
Classic Records (DVD 24/96)
Classic Records (Eel Pie)
Classic Records (EMI)
Classic Records (Everest)
Classic Records (Herald Records)
Classic Records (Imperial)
Classic Records (Impulse)
Classic Records (Island)
Classic Records (Jazz Planet)
Classic Records (Mercury Living Presence)
Classic Records (Monument)
Classic Records (New World)
Classic Records (Polydor)
Classic Records (RCA Living Stereo)
Classic Records (RCA Victrola)
Classic Records (Real World)
Classic Records (Reprise)
Classic Records (Rock The House)
Classic Records (Roulette)
Classic Records (Sony)
Classic Records (Sugar Hill Records)
Classic Records (Takoma)
Classic Records (Track)
Classic Records (Transition)
Classic Records (Vanguard)
Classic Records (Vapor Records)
Classic Records (Verve)
Classic Records (Virgin)
Clearaudio (Deutsche Grammophon)
DCC
Friday Music
King Super Analogue
Klavier
Mobile Fidelity
Music Matters (Blue Note)
Mosaic
ORG - Original Recordings Group
Pure Audiophile
Pure Pleasure Records
Pure Pleasure Records (Black & Blue)
Pure Pleasure Records (Black Lion)
Pure Pleasure Records (Blue Horizon)
Pure Pleasure Records (Blue Note)
Pure Pleasure Records (Blue Sky)
Pure Pleasure Records (Candid)
Pure Pleasure Records (Capitol)
Pure Pleasure Records (CBS)
Pure Pleasure Records (Choice)
Pure Pleasure Records (Columbia)
Pure Pleasure Records (CTI)
Pure Pleasure Records (Dara)
Pure Pleasure Records (Epic)
Pure Pleasure Records (Go Jazz)
Pure Pleasure Records (Groove Merchant)
Pure Pleasure Records (Gull)
Pure Pleasure Records (Imperial)
Pure Pleasure Records (Isabel)
Pure Pleasure Records (L & R)
Pure Pleasure Records (Liberty)
Pure Pleasure Records (Manhaton)
Pure Pleasure Records (Okeh/Epic)
Pure Pleasure Records (Pacific Jazz)
Pure Pleasure Records (RCA Victor)
Pure Pleasure Records (RCA)
Pure Pleasure Records (Roulette)
Pure Pleasure Records (Storyville)
Pure Pleasure Records (Tumi)
Pure Pleasure Records (United Artists)
Pure Pleasure Records (Vanguard)
Pure Pleasure Records (Village Life)
Pure Pleasure Records (World Pacific)
Rhino
Speakers Corner (A&M)
Speakers Corner (ABC)
Speakers Corner (Arista)
Speakers Corner (Asylum)
Speakers Corner (Bang)
Speakers Corner (Bell)
Speakers Corner (Blue Horizon)
Speakers Corner (Blue Thumb)
Speakers Corner (CBS)
Speakers Corner (Chess)
Speakers Corner (Clef)
Speakers Corner (Columbia)
Speakers Corner (Cotillion)
Speakers Corner (Decca)
Speakers Corner (Deram)
Speakers Corner (Deutsche Grammophon)
Speakers Corner (DJM)
Speakers Corner (Dot)
Speakers Corner (EmArcy)
Speakers Corner (Fontana)
Speakers Corner (Gordy)
Speakers Corner (Harmonia Mundi)
Speakers Corner (Impulse)
Speakers Corner (Kama Sutra)
Speakers Corner (Label Bleu)
Speakers Corner (London)
Speakers Corner (Mercury Living Presence)
Speakers Corner (Mercury)
Speakers Corner (Motown)
Speakers Corner (MPS)
Speakers Corner (Norgran)
Speakers Corner (Philips)
Speakers Corner (RCA Living Stereo)
Speakers Corner (RCA)
Speakers Corner (Sussex)
Speakers Corner (Tamla)
Speakers Corner (Verve)
Speakers Corner (Warner Bros.)
Speakers Corner (Westminster)
S & P Records
Sundazed
Testament
Water Lily

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 13, 4:04=A0pm, John Nunes
wrote:


Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=A0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving
about "musicality" and so on.

Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the question.

Audited sales figures would address the question.

[John Nunes]

On 8/14/2010 5:28 PM, Scott wrote:
On Aug 13, 4:04=A0pm, John wrote:


Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against musically important
historic recordings because they aren't exciting or interesting "audio"
material. =A0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving about
"musicality" and so on.

Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening. I suggest you
take a look at the music being reissued by audiophile labels and then
get back to us.

(snip)

You missed the point. Sorry if I was not clear. How much on your list
is stuff that sounds really lousy in strictly an audio sense, (such as
re-issued 78's for one good example) but is priceless (a metaphor)
musically and historically?

There is just one Furtwangler recording on the Acoustic Sounds site.

There is just one (called "preowned" - like used car salesman lingo for
"used" - heh) of an Albert Schweitzer Bach recording.

There are only three recordings of Caruso.

There are only two recordings of Marcel Dupre's organ playing.

There are only three recordings of Turk Murphy's jazz band.

There are zero recordings of Wanda Landowska performing. (sorry Dick
Pierce - she was a pioneer in harpsichord
revival, even if her playing or instrument isn't up "modern" standards
;-) )

There are zero recordings of Amalia Rodrigues.

There are zero recordings of Charles Tournemire's live improvisations.

There are zero recordings of Scott Joplin's piano rolls.

There are zero recordings involving Alfred Deller.

There are zero recordings of Helmut Walcha's playing.

Those are some pretty good indicators for the kind of material I was
referring to. I could sit here all night doing this, which would be a
waste of time.

There's a small, but acceptable collection of Stokowski recordings.

Ditto for some Bernard Hermann.

Bottom line: If I want a recording that is of only musical and
historical interest, I sure don't go to audiophile influenced sources.
It's common CD reissues, obscure used shops, ebay, Craigslist, estate
sales, friends, friends of friends, etc. Perhaps your reply is to be
expected, after all this is a "high-end" discussion group. But
high-enders often hand wave about how "the music is what's important."
But when it comes to recordings that have precious historical musical
content ONLY, they generally aren't interested.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:25:30 -0700, John Nunes wrote
(in article ):

On 8/11/2010 4:34 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

You actually HAVE one of these?

The less expensive one, called a Dragon CT. It doesn't tell you how
much the record is off, but it corrects to the same degree.

I read that other than it's ability to
somewhat correct eccentric records, it's not a very good turntable.

Did you actually read the page I posted? Centering to .01mm is not an
"ability to somewhat correct eccentric records." (emphasis mine)

Do you believe everything you read or hear? In the highly myth laced
audio biz, that's not very wise at all.

Hey, don't get so hostile, I merely related what I have heard/read and wanted
to ask you (as an owner) if you agreed with that assessment. I never said or
even intimated that I had any preconceived notions about these products. Were
that true, I wouldn't have asked your opinion.

I "heard" that if you take this bolt, and put it on the chassis, your
car will start."

That's not very helpful.

Since it
doesn't correct for warp wow (as far as I remember), it only does half the
job in my opinion. Do you have any comment on the perception that it's not a
very good 'table or the fact that it doesn't correct for warps (with some
kind of vacuum hod-down)? I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of
someone
who actually has one.

They are both very good tables. Just because it doesn't have cult
status in the current scheme of things doesn't mean the contrary.
Current cult status is often based on ideas that have no falsifiability
and one "just has to believe" - like religion. Been there, done that,
not satisfying, not rational, and wastes a lot of money in what can be
an already expensive hobby.

I use a soft sticky mat with a clamp to help control non-flat records.
Some are not redeemable, even with vacuum hold down. Such is life with
an obsolete, highly flawed storage medium that has a lot of music to
draw from.

Thank you for your comments.

[Audio Empire]

On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 06:30:39 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 13, 4:04=A0pm, John Nunes
wrote:


Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=A0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving
about "musicality" and so on.

Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the question.

I wondered about that too. Basically, to me, speed instability problems will
remove the enjoyability of a recording faster than about anything else. That
includes restricted frequency response, high levels of background noise, and
high distortion levels.

Audited sales figures would address the question.


Not really necessary in my opinion. Records are expensive to master and
manufacture these days. Were there not a large enough, sustainable market to
be profitable, there wouldn't be so many labels in the LP reissue business.
Now how long these businesses will remain viable, is another question and one
that nobody can answer, but for the here and now, vinyl seems to be enjoying
a mini renaissance.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 15, 6:30=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John Nunes
wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving
about "musicality" and so on.
Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the question.

Sure it does. Economics 101. Supply and demand. The supply wouldn't
exist were it not for the demand.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 15, 6:33=A0am, John Nunes wrote:
On 8/14/2010 5:28 PM, Scott wrote:

On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John =A0wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against musically important
historic recordings because they aren't exciting or interesting "audio=
"
material. =3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving a=
bout
"musicality" and so on.

Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening. I suggest you
take a look at the music being reissued by audiophile labels and then
get back to us.

(snip)

You missed the point. =A0Sorry if I was not clear. =A0How much on your li=
st
is stuff that sounds really lousy in strictly an audio sense, (such as
re-issued 78's for one good example) but is priceless (a metaphor)
musically and historically?

"Really lousy?" You just moved to goal posts. But there are a fair
number of titles available from that list that are anything but sonic
spectaculars. They were picked for the music not the sound.


There is just one Furtwangler recording on the Acoustic Sounds site.

There is just one (called "preowned" - like used car salesman lingo for
"used" - heh) of an Albert Schweitzer Bach recording.

There are only three recordings of Caruso.

There are only two recordings of Marcel Dupre's organ playing.

There are only three recordings of Turk Murphy's jazz band.

There are zero recordings of Wanda Landowska performing. (sorry Dick
Pierce - she was a pioneer in harpsichord
revival, even if her playing or instrument isn't up "modern" standards
;-) )

There are zero recordings of Amalia Rodrigues.

There are zero recordings of Charles Tournemire's live improvisations.

There are zero recordings of Scott Joplin's piano rolls.

There are zero recordings involving Alfred Deller.

There are zero recordings of Helmut Walcha's playing.

Those are some pretty good indicators for the kind of material I was
referring to. =A0I could sit here all night doing this, which would be a
waste of time.

Of course you could sit there and cherry pick. If you consider the
percentage of *all* recordings represented by that list (which was
hardly an all inclusive list) then the fact that it had 10 that fell
within your cherry picking would be, in my view, pretty impressive.
There is an awful lot of music represented in that list that perhaps
you don't find historically important but others do.



There's a small, but acceptable collection of Stokowski recordings.

Ditto for some Bernard Hermann.

Bottom line: =A0If I want a recording that is of only musical and
historical interest, I sure don't go to audiophile influenced sources.
It's common CD reissues, obscure used shops, ebay, Craigslist, estate
sales, =A0friends, friends of friends, etc. =A0Perhaps your reply is to b=
e
expected, after all this is a "high-end" discussion group. =A0But
high-enders often hand wave about how "the music is what's important."
But when it comes to recordings that have precious historical musical
content ONLY, they generally aren't interested.

It seems you missed my point. I wasn't saying that these labels have
blanketed *your* concept of historically important recordings. I was
merely showing you that your assertion isn't supported by what is
offered by these audiophile labels. For every Sheffield like sonic
spectacle there are several dozen titles picked for their "musical"
content. I think the list demonstrates a pretty significant lack of
said prejudice. We could get into some debate as to what is and is not
"important." Alfred Deller? But it would be too much of a tangent.

[Audio Empire]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:04:07 -0700, John Nunes wrote
(in article ):

On 8/12/2010 3:56 PM, Dick Pierce wrote:

Of the several HUNDRED LP recordings I have Baroque organ and
harpsichord music, I would say about 30% of them exhibit pitch
instability that is audibly detectable, some almost to the point
of annoyance, and the exhibit this no matter what turntable they
are played on. I'm not talking warp wow, since I store can care
for them well. I'm not even talking, in many cases, off-center
punches, because the tone arm exhibits no detectable periodic
horizontal movement. I'm talking audible pitch instability which
seems to be intrinsic to the record itself.

Then what would be the mechanism for this?

I don't pretend to know what Pierce is referring to, but I've run across
records that had such ills as tape "scape" flutter, wow, low frequency
flutter as well as actual tape irregularities. How these ills made it onto
lacquer, I'll never know. Once such extreme example was the soundtrack LP to
the movie "The Blue Max". Great Jerry Goldsmith score rendered unlistenable
by terrible scrape flutter, yet the CD reissue is PERFECT and exhibits none
of the aforementioned flutter.

So, let me get this straight, according to you, the solution
to the pitch instability found in records is, to quote you
now, that "one simply doesn't play them."

That's your solution to LP pitch instability?

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against musically important
historic recordings because they aren't exciting or interesting "audio"
material. Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving about
"musicality" and so on.

That's a pretty irrelevant comment. Recordings with bad wow and/or flutter,
are simply not very enjoyable. I can listen to 78's and enjoy them, but I
can't take any recording, LP or tape (or a CD for that matter) that exhibits
audible amounts of wow and/or flutter.

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:17:15 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):

On Aug 15, 6:30=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John Nunes
wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand waving
about "musicality" and so on.
Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the question.

Sure it does. Economics 101. Supply and demand. The supply wouldn't
exist were it not for the demand.


That's exactly right. Like I mentioned in another post, there are a goodly
number of businesses mastering and manufacturing phonograph records these
days. In large part, the records they make are much more carefully mastered
and manufactured than they were in vinyl's heyday. And, they are expensive;
expensive to buy, and expensive to make. If there weren't enough buyers to
maintain the market, most of these concerns would go away. The fact that they
are still here, and report that their business is good (even in this
depression) tells us pretty much all we need to know about the business as it
stands today.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 15, 6:30=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John Nunes
wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand
waving about "musicality" and so on.
Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the
question.

Sure it does. Economics 101. Supply and demand.

The supply wouldn't exist were it not for the demand.

You can't tell that to a boy who was raised in Detroit among huge lots of
brand new cars that nobody wanted to buy.

You can't tell that to a boy who worked in a store that sold records and saw
how records that were pressed but did not sell were handled.

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:07:04 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 15, 6:30=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John Nunes
wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand
waving about "musicality" and so on.
Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued by
audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the
question.

Sure it does. Economics 101. Supply and demand.

The supply wouldn't exist were it not for the demand.

You can't tell that to a boy who was raised in Detroit among huge lots of
brand new cars that nobody wanted to buy.

You can't tell that to a boy who worked in a store that sold records and saw
how records that were pressed but did not sell were handled.



All I can say is that wrt the records, that was then , this is now. Cars? As
long as Detroit's car marketing mantra is to "offend no one" then they won't
please very many people either, and most of their over-priced,
under-engineered, and poorly made cars will continue to sell poorly against
the Japanese, Koreans, and soon, the Chinese.

[Arny Krueger]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:07:04 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 15, 6:30=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 13, 4:04=3DA0pm, John Nunes
wrote:

Many (most?) audiophiles have a prejudice against
musically important historic recordings because they
aren't exciting or interesting "audio" material.
=3DA0Funny that, with all the purple prose and hand
waving about "musicality" and so on.
Nothing like the smell of burning straw in the
evening.

Agreed.

I suggest you take a look at the music being reissued
by audiophile labels and then get back to us.

Information about offerings does not address the
question.

Sure it does. Economics 101. Supply and demand.

The supply wouldn't exist were it not for the demand.

You can't tell that to a boy who was raised in Detroit
among huge lots of brand new cars that nobody wanted to
buy.

You can't tell that to a boy who worked in a store that
sold records and saw how records that were pressed but
did not sell were handled.

All I can say is that wrt the records, that was then ,
this is now.

The reason that some recordings did not sell in the volumes that were
expected was a combination of optimism and human error.

If you can reliably demonstrate that optimism and human error are somehow
vastly reduced in these days, then you get your point.

Cars? As long as Detroit's car marketing
mantra is to "offend no one" then they won't please very
many people either, and most of their over-priced,
under-engineered, and poorly made cars will continue to
sell poorly against the Japanese, Koreans, and soon, the
Chinese.

American cars in total outsell Japanese, Korean, and German cars in total
within the US, which is their intended primary market. What *has* happened
is that Japanese, Korean, and German cars and car sales used to be a joke,
and now they are very serious competitors.

American cars as a rule are less costly than competive foreign models.
American car manufacturers have improved their designs and production
quality to the point where they are often fully competitive with foreign
products.

The shame is that American quality and design was so poor so long, and that
it took such disasterous losses to awaken american execuitives to the new
reality.

I worked for GM and Chrysler in the 60s and 70s and one word comes to mind:
Arrogance.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 17, 11:03=A0am, Dick Pierce wrote:
Scott wrote:

=A0 John Nunes wrote
=A0 There are zero recordings of Amalia Rodrigues.
=A0 There are zero recordings of Charles Tournemire's live
=A0 improvisations.
=A0 There are zero recordings of Scott Joplin's piano rolls.
=A0 There are zero recordings involving Alfred Deller
=A0 There are zero recordings of Helmut Walcha's playing.

How about adding to the list the works of Couperin, Roberdais,
Sweelink, Bruhns, Kerll, in other words, almost the entire
repertoire of Baroque keyboard music prior to Bach.


Guess I should have mentioned Hrmonia Mundi which while not purely an
audiophile label they clearly target audiophiles with their product.



=A0 Those are some pretty good indicators for the kind of material I wa=
s
=A0 referring to. =3DA0I could sit here all night doing this, which wou=
ld
=A0 be a waste of time.
=A0
=A0 Of course you could sit there and cherry pick.

Are you kidding? REALLY?

No



Every time I have gone to buy a record or a CD, the process
I used was "cherry picking" by nearly ANY reasonable definition
of the word.

Yeah, OK. What does that have to do with what is being discussed? We
are talking about the musical content of historical signiicance
offered by audiophile labels. Not what you personally buy when you go
to the record store.



I NEVER once bought a recording primarily because it came from
some "audiophile" label or because it was on media or another.
I bought it SOLELY because of its musical significance to me.

OK. Utterly irrelevant but OK.



=A0 If you consider the percentage of *all* recordings represented
=A0 by that list (which was hardly an all inclusive list) then the
=A0 fact that it had 10 that fell within your cherry picking would
=A0 be, in my view, pretty impressive.

You keep bringing up this "cherry picking" thing like it's
some bad,


Well it is when one is trying to make a point about the musically
historical content offered by audiophile labels. It fails to represent
the reality of what is offered by these labels that is of historical
significance. That is what we are talking about Dick. We are not
talking about what you like or what i like or any other individual.


If that genre is NOT available on a particular media or not
branded with some special badge, then that media or badge
gets left in the dustbin.

Again I would have to point to Harmonia Mundi. Not sure any other
label covers that genre better than they do.



Do I cherry pick? You bet your ass I do: THAT'S WHAT LISTENING
TO MUSIC IS ABOUT.


That is great Dick but it simply isn't on topic.



And, by all indications, you cherry pick at least as carefully
as I do.

Yeah of course when picking music for me as a consumer. Not when I am
trying to make a point about offerings of the audiophile labels as a
group though.



It's just, for me, the medium is of almost no significance if
that's the only source of the music I desire.

For example, there are no current (let's call 'current' within
the last quarter century) LPs all that I can find of the music
of Baroque keyboard composers such as Altenburg, Armsdorf, Babou,
Banchieri, Cabanilles, Clerembault, d'Andrieu, D'Aquin, Kellner,
Kerll, Lubeck, Marchand, Paradisi, Scheidemann, Strungk, Seixas,
Zachau, those being some among the 90-odd composers that I have
collections of their music. They are better represented on CD,
and I am able to download high-quality MP3s of multiple
performances of these works totalling some 7000 unique works
lasting several days of first rate performances.

Do I cherry pick? Damn right: I like cherries. If the best
looking, best constructed, finest sounding fruit basket in
the universe ain't got no cherries, I ain't interested.

Yeah. I cherry pick. I just don't pick pretty cherries
that taste like lemons.

Wanna make something out of it?

LOL No Dick, I don't want to fight with you about your choice of
music.



=A0 There is an awful lot of music represented in that list that perhaps
=A0 you don't find historically important but others do.

And the sword, she be versatile in her bidirectionality.

It's not even "historically importanr." It's MUSICALLY important
that's the issue.

You might want to take that up with the guy who made an issue about
"historically important" music.



And even though YOUR musical interests, whatever they might be
allow YOU to cherry pick from those labels, they don't allow
me, so I and many others pick our musical fruit elsewhere and,
apparently for different reasons.


I'll have to concede that point Dick. My tastes are much better served
by the audiophile labels than yours seems to be.