[Adrian]

Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is a Denon DP-35F Turntable with a Denon DL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USB Phono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.

Do you have any thoughts on what is "wrong"? And, what can I do about
it? You guys have given me great advice in the past.
Many thanks

Adrian

[Todd H.]

Adrian writes:

Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is a Denon DP-35F Turntable with a Denon DL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USB Phono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

That's a moving coil cartridge. They're generally lower output that
moving magnet cartridges.

If I had to guess, without doing too much research for you, I'd wager
that the USB PHono Plus was designed with MMC's in mind, and not the
small output MCC that you have.


--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette |
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/bmiawmb

[Adrian]

On Dec 10, 1:01 pm, (Todd H.) wrote:
Adrian writes:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is aDenonDP-35F Turntable with aDenonDL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USBPhono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

That's a moving coil cartridge. They're generally lower output that
moving magnet cartridges.

If I had to guess, without doing too much research for you, I'd wager
that theUSBPHono Plus was designed with MMC's in mind, and not the
small output MCC that you have.

--
That seems to be the consensus. Does anyone have a recomentation for
a more appropriate cartridge.

Thanks

Adrian

[Silk]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:11:02 -0800, Adrian wrote:

That seems to be the consensus. Does anyone have a recomentation for a
more appropriate cartridge.

Audio Technica AT95. If you can still get them.

[Geoff]

Adrian wrote:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is a Denon DP-35F Turntable with a Denon DL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USB Phono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.

Do you have any thoughts on what is "wrong"? And, what can I do about
it? You guys have given me great advice in the past.
Many thanks

You need the transformer that (maybe) comes with your cartridge, or a phono
preamp with a specialised MC (Moving Coil) input. Your MC cartridge has a
very low output compared the the more usual MM (Moving Magnet) cartridges -
I doubt a USB phono interface would sport this.


geoff.

[Adrian]

On Dec 10, 1:21 pm, "geoff" wrote:
Adrian wrote:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is aDenonDP-35F Turntable with aDenonDL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USBPhono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.

Do you have any thoughts on what is "wrong"? And, what can I do about
it? You guys have given me great advice in the past.
Many thanks

You need the transformer that (maybe) comes with your cartridge, or a phono
preamp with a specialised MC (Moving Coil) input. Your MC cartridge has a
very low output compared the the more usual MM (Moving Magnet) cartridges -
I doubt aUSBphono interface would sport this.

geoff.

So, time to find a Moving Magnet cartridge.

Thanks for helping.

[Geoff]

Adrian wrote:

So, time to find a Moving Magnet cartridge.

Thanks for helping.

MC cartridges often offer benefits over MC. Why not buy a phono preamp with
a MC/MM switch ? Probably a cheaper option.

geoff

[Arny Krueger]

"geoff" wrote in message

Adrian wrote:

So, time to find a Moving Magnet cartridge.

Thanks for helping.

MC cartridges often offer benefits over MC. Why not buy a
phono preamp with a MC/MM switch ? Probably a cheaper
option.


Whether MC cartriges have any inherent benefits over MM cartridges has
always been controversial.

One of the finest MM cartridges ever made still costs less than $100. It's
hard to get a good MM preamp for $100, and MC preamps are generally far more
expensive.

[tony sayer]

In article , Arny Krueger
scribeth thus
"geoff" wrote in message
m
Adrian wrote:

So, time to find a Moving Magnet cartridge.

Thanks for helping.

MC cartridges often offer benefits over MC. Why not buy a
phono preamp with a MC/MM switch ? Probably a cheaper
option.


Whether MC cartriges have any inherent benefits over MM cartridges has
always been controversial.

One of the finest MM cartridges ever made still costs less than $100.

Which is please?...


--
Tony Sayer

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Adrian
wrote:

Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is a Denon DP-35F Turntable with a Denon DL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USB Phono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.


Do you still have the amplifier you used to use when you played vinyl
all the time? It will have an input stage better suited to your
low-output cartridge. Use that as a preamp, feeding Tape Out into
Line In on the ART, switching out the RIAA stage.

[Adrian]

On Dec 10, 2:05 pm, Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Adrian

wrote:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is aDenonDP-35F Turntable with aDenonDL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USBPhono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.

Do you still have the amplifier you used to use when you played vinyl
all the time? It will have an input stage better suited to your
low-output cartridge. Use that as a preamp, feeding Tape Out into
Line In on the ART, switching out the RIAA stage.

Yes I do have the receiver. However, it will awkward to set it up
just now. Since I see this as a project that will go on for some time
I amthinking about a new cartridge.

Adrian

[jakdedert]

Adrian wrote:
On Dec 10, 2:05 pm, Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:47:33 -0800 (PST), Adrian

wrote:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!
My equipment is aDenonDP-35F Turntable with aDenonDL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USBPhono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.
Do you still have the amplifier you used to use when you played vinyl
all the time? It will have an input stage better suited to your
low-output cartridge. Use that as a preamp, feeding Tape Out into
Line In on the ART, switching out the RIAA stage.

Yes I do have the receiver. However, it will awkward to set it up
just now. Since I see this as a project that will go on for some time
I amthinking about a new cartridge.

Adrian
You don't have to 'set it up' per se...just plug it in, in the vicinity
of the turntable and computer...ie you don't need speakers, antenna or
anything else. Put it under your monitor....

Space might be an issue, but you're just setting it up as a preamp for
your computer...one cord for power, one double RCA to the preamp, and
start ripping while you're figuring out your cartridge issues.

jak

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:13:11 -0800 (PST), Adrian
wrote:

Do you still have the amplifier you used to use when you played vinyl
all the time? It will have an input stage better suited to your
low-output cartridge. Use that as a preamp, feeding Tape Out into
Line In on the ART, switching out the RIAA stage.

Yes I do have the receiver. However, it will awkward to set it up
just now. Since I see this as a project that will go on for some time
I amthinking about a new cartridge.

What's to set up? Just put it somewhere near the turntable and
computer. It dousn't need speakers or anything.

[Dave W.]

On 10 Dec, 20:47, Adrian wrote:
Time has come to digitize my Vinyl collection. Having successfully
copied tape material to CD, I thought this would be easy!

My equipment is a Denon DP-35F Turntable with a Denon DL-300
Cartridge, a New ART "USB Phono Plus" interface and a Dell Latitude
D810 Notebook equipped with RIP Vinyl.

This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is clean but not
strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono turned to the max. But, the
meter in RIP barely rises about the quarter way mark. If I look at
the signal in Audacity it is pretty "thin". I could comfortably use
at least 3dB more.

Do you have any thoughts on what is "wrong"? And, what can I do about
it? You guys have given me great advice in the past.
Many thanks

Adrian

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you have it
digitised there is no problem. Before saving it to any 'lossy'
compression method, simply amplify it in Audacity. This is a
mathematical operation, and the 'clean signal' will be end up being as
loud as you want it to be.

Jack.

[Geoff]

Dave W. wrote:

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you have it
digitised there is no problem. Before saving it to any 'lossy'
compression method, simply amplify it in Audacity. This is a
mathematical operation, and the 'clean signal' will be end up being as
loud as you want it to be.


However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation noise. It
is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

geoff

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:30:45 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation noise. It
is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

Waste of space really, off vinyl. Or off any other real-world source
where levels are under control.

[David Looser]

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:30:45 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation noise.
It
is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

Waste of space really, off vinyl. Or off any other real-world source
where levels are under control.

I agree. The background noise on the vinyl will dither the quantisation
quite effectively. Whilst ideally one would record with the peak signal just
failing to hit 0dBFS, in practice even with a 16 bit ADC when digitising
vinyl anything up to around 12dB of gain could be retrospectively applied to
the digital signal without audible quantisation noise becoming apparent.

David.

[Steven Sullivan]

In rec.audio.tech David Looser wrote:
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:30:45 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation noise.
It
is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

Waste of space really, off vinyl. Or off any other real-world source
where levels are under control.

I agree. The background noise on the vinyl will dither the quantisation
quite effectively. Whilst ideally one would record with the peak signal just
failing to hit 0dBFS,

Not necessarily ideal, due to the possibility of intersample peaks. It's advisable to
record with peak samples a dB or three shy of 0 dBFS, unless you have accurate peak monitors
that show you what the *output* level is.


___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Geoff]

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:30:45 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation
noise. It is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

Waste of space really, off vinyl. Or off any other real-world source
where levels are under control.

If he is recording at a lower than optimum level then it is well worth using
the extra bits, to reduce the detrimental effect of bringing up the level
once digitised.

It is a long time since amounts of data like that have been significant.
And once on CD he can delete the computer data anyway. Sheesh.

geoff

[David Looser]

"geoff" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:30:45 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the quantisation
noise. It is best to optimise your recording level first.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording at 24 bits
resolution.

Waste of space really, off vinyl. Or off any other real-world source
where levels are under control.

If he is recording at a lower than optimum level then it is well worth
using the extra bits, to reduce the detrimental effect of bringing up the
level once digitised.

It's very unlikely that there will be any audible difference using 24-bit
unless the level is increased significantly (20dB or more) because the
background noise from the vinyl will dither the quantisation. What matters
far more is to use a high-quality RIAA amp and a low-distortion ADC.

It is a long time since amounts of data like that have been significant.
And once on CD he can delete the computer data anyway. Sheesh.

But many audio recording programs only work in 16 bit. There is no advantage
to using 24-bit for this purpose so it's not worth the extra hassle.

David.

[Arny Krueger]

"geoff" wrote in message


Dave W. wrote:

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.

But what is digitized? Is it really a pure signal, or is there a noise floor
that can intrude on the faint signal coming into the RIAA preamp? A MC
preamp or transformer raises the signal above the noise floor of the MM
preamp. Since there is currently no MC preamp or transformer, the noise
floor of the MM preamp is probably the weakest link.

Before saving it
to any 'lossy' compression method, simply amplify it in
Audacity. This is a mathematical operation, and the
'clean signal' will be end up being as loud as you want
it to be.

Problem here is that there's always an analog domain noise floor, if only in
the existing analog-to-digital converter. In this case I expect that the MM
RIAA preamp is the weakest link. I base this on many experiences with them.
Even with 16 bit converters, a MM RIAA preamp is the weakest link.

Let me give a real world numerical example. If I adjust a good MM RIAA
preamp so that the preamp clips at a slightly higher level than a
high-trackability cartridge mistracks on a test record, the needle-up noise
floor will be 70+/- dB down. Since the noise floor of a good 16 bit
converter is more like 96 dB down, the weakest link is the MM RIAA preamp.

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the
quantisation noise. It is best to optimise your recording
level first.

Agreed. And that's why there are such things as MC pre-preamps and
transformers.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording
at 24 bits resolution.

A 24 bit converter does no more good - it just gives a higher resolution
rendition of the noise in the MM RIAA preamp.

[Adrian]

On Dec 11, 9:06 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message



Dave W. wrote:
If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.

But what is digitized? Is it really a pure signal, or is there a noise floor
that can intrude on the faint signal coming into the RIAA preamp? A MC
preamp or transformer raises the signal above the noise floor of the MM
preamp. Since there is currently no MC preamp or transformer, the noise
floor of the MM preamp is probably the weakest link.

Before saving it
to any 'lossy' compression method, simply amplify it in
Audacity. This is a mathematical operation, and the
'clean signal' will be end up being as loud as you want
it to be.

Problem here is that there's always an analog domain noise floor, if only in
the existing analog-to-digital converter. In this case I expect that the MM
RIAA preamp is the weakest link. I base this on many experiences with them.
Even with 16 bit converters, a MM RIAA preamp is the weakest link.

Let me give a real world numerical example. If I adjust a good MM RIAA
preamp so that the preamp clips at a slightly higher level than a
high-trackability cartridge mistracks on a test record, the needle-up noise
floor will be 70+/- dB down. Since the noise floor of a good 16 bit
converter is more like 96 dB down, the weakest link is the MM RIAA preamp.

However as you amplify it, yo will also bring up the
quantisation noise. It is best to optimise your recording
level first.

Agreed. And that's why there are such things as MC pre-preamps and
transformers.

The effect can be reduced by ensuring you are recording
at 24 bits resolution.

A 24 bit converter does no more good - it just gives a higher resolution
rendition of the noise in the MM RIAA preamp.

Excellent help. Thanks Arny. I am going to look for an appropriate
cartridge.

Any suggestions? :-)

Thanks

Adrian

[Richard Crowley]

"Dave W." wrote ...
Adrian wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is
clean but not strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono
turned to the max.

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you have
it digitised there is no problem.

Lets review the bidding....

* Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* Signal is "clean but not strong"

Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.

Of course, Adrian could decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Dave W." wrote ...
Adrian wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is
clean but not strong. I have the gain on the USB Phono
turned to the max.

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.

Lets review the bidding....

* Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* Signal is "clean but not strong"

Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.

Agreed.

Of course, Adrian could decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.

I'd vote for solution number 1, more specificially this cartridge:

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-Hi...983 46&sr=8-1

Cheapest way out and solves more problems.

[Adrian]

On Dec 11, 10:37 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message







"Dave W." wrote ...
Adrian wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is
clean but not strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono
turned to the max.

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.

Lets review the bidding....

* Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* Signal is "clean but not strong"
Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.

Agreed.

Of course, Adrian could decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.

I'd vote for solution number 1, more specificially this cartridge:

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-Hi...etic-Cartridge...

Cheapest way out and solves more problems

Thanks. Under serious consideration.

[jakdedert]

Adrian wrote:
On Dec 11, 10:37 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message







"Dave W." wrote ...
Adrian wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is
clean but not strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono
turned to the max.
If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.
Lets review the bidding....
* Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* Signal is "clean but not strong"
Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.
Agreed.

Of course, Adrian could decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.
I'd vote for solution number 1, more specificially this cartridge:

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-Hi...etic-Cartridge...

Cheapest way out and solves more problems

Nope, cheapest is to simply use your receiver for a preamp...nothing
else to buy.

jak

Thanks. Under serious consideration.

[Adrian]

On Dec 11 2007, 10:37*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message







"Dave W." *wrote ...
*Adrian*wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. *The signal is
clean but not strong. *I have the gain on theUSBPhono
turned to the max.

If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you
have it digitised there is no problem.

Lets review the bidding....

* *Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* *Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* *Signal is "clean but not strong"
Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.

Agreed.

Of course,Adriancould decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. *But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.

I'd vote for solution number 1, more specificially this cartridge:

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-Hi...etic-Cartridge...

Cheapest way out and solves more problems.

Solution implemented. The results, to quote Pop Larkin are "Perfick",
or at least somewhat as close as we ever get to perfect in the world
of audio reproduction. :-)

Many thanks

Adrian

[Adrian]

On Dec 11, 10:36 am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Dave W." wrote ...

Adrian wrote:
This past weekend I copied three albums. The signal is
clean but not strong. I have the gain on theUSBPhono
turned to the max.
If, as you say, the signal is clean, then as long as you have
it digitised there is no problem.

Lets review the bidding....

* Low-output MC cartridge feeding an inexpensive RIAA
phono preamp designed for MC.
* Gain on the preamp "turned to the max".
* Signal is "clean but not strong"

Therefore, by definition, the captured signal is NOT
"clean" after amplifying it (plus the noise) to the
nominal level.

Of course, Adrian could decide that it is good enough
for his purposes, and that is fine. But conventional
wisdom would suggest that the solution might be...
1) Use a conventional MM cartridge
2) Use a step-up transformer or pre-pre-amp for MC
3) Use a preamp designed for MC.

Points well taken. I want to do this right. Option one is my currect
preference. I believe in KISS, keep it simple, stupid!

Adrian