Scott wrote:
On Jan 28, 7:16=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Audio Empire" wrote in message
I don't really understand your seeming fascination with
the relevance of market size. The average "Joe" doesn't
care about quality at all (in much of anything) beyond
the concept of "adequate". Therefore any product which
caters to a market where quality (real or imagined) is
important, is going to be, by definition, a niche market.
Ferrari and Porsche occupy a niche market in the
automobile world. Laphroiag and Aberlore, as well as
Woodford Reserve and VanWinkle's occupy a niche market in
the whisky world. More people drink Budwieser than drink
Pilsn Urquell, and more people own Panasonic receivers
than own Audio Research equipment. These are all catering
to niche markets. It really doesn't matter what the hoi
polloi are doing or buying, or otherwise consuming.
I understand why someone wants to pay the big bucks to own a Porsche, or =
a
Ferrari. They are wonderful cars with great handing and performance. Thei=
r
cost is justified by the advanced technology that it takes to makes them =
do
what they do. 12 cylinders cost more than 6. Dual clutch drive trains cos=
t
more than mass-produced lightweight automatics. All wheel drive costs mor=
e
than FWD. =A0Turbochargers and superchargers cost more than natural
aspiration. Ultra wide 200 mph tires cost more than average width 120 mph
tires.
I don't understand why someone would want to pay big bucks for retro
technology with vastly reduced performance and built-in inconvenience,
except for reasons of pure emotion such as sentimentality.
I don't understand why you don't understand since it has been
explained to you numerous times on numerous threads including this
one. If you don't understand the value of better subjective sound
through better mastering and euphonic colorations then I don't know
what more to tell you. You don't get it. that is fine. there are
people who never get the better experience one gets with a Kolbe steak
over a Big Mac. But the *idea* is, in my opinion, pretty easy to
understand even if you haven't personally experienced it.
So much for Audio
Research electronics and Linn turntables. My Sansa Clip+ and Altec-Lansin=
g
IEMs (total cost: less than 60 dollars) =A0sounds as good if not better, =
and
does so both in a campsite on Lake Superior or in my listening room.
Previously in this thread you challenged my ability to make any kind
of judgment on digital audio based on the incorrect belief that i had
no digital player in my system. Well back at you. I'm pretty sure you
don't have any ARC amplification nor a Linn TT so It's kinda hard to
take this claim seriously. Besides that, "AL IEMs?" Really? If that is
your standard of excellence then I don't know what to say. You are
using a system that has such extreme inherent limitations in it's
ability to create an illusion of an original live acoustic performance
that I can not see how you can form any meaningful opinions about the
quality of various components or masterings available on CD or vinyl
as they pertain to creating an illusion of live acoustic music in
playback. If that really is your standard of excellence then any
discussion between us on such matters will be saddled with a complete
lack of common ground. With my system I can go to Disney Hall, listen
to the L.A Phil and come home and listen to well recorded orchestral
works on vinyl and hear a great deal of common ground and then make
meaningful evaluations of the various components, recordings,
masterings etc in terms of how close they come to creating an illusion
of live music in my listening room. With AL IEMs or any other such
transducer the sound is so far removed from any sort of convincing
illusion of live music that the differences between the sort of things
we are discussing here (LPs v, CDs, different masterings, Tubes v.SS
etc) simply don't have the same frame work.
There are recorings which work on IEMs / headphones. And then the
illusion is ways beyond the capabilities of any normal high-end stereo
system.
Using the analogy of cars
that we find in this post. It would be akin to trying to evaluate
different racing tires using a tractor.
Excellent sound with utter convenience is hard to beat, especially at one
100th =A0or one 1,000th of the price.
Indeed it is but one can not get excellent sound with what you are
using compared to the ARC/Linn equipment driving high end loud
speakers correctly set up in a good listening room if one is using
live acoustic music as a reference.
Of course it can. It will suprass it by many lenghts -- All given proper
recording.
You can't even get in the ball
park. You can't even get in the same state the ball park is located
in.
180 degree opposite (with proper recording).
The big downside to the Sansa: no
bragging rights, just good music. I could show it to you in my hand and y=
ou
might not notice it!
High-end audio is supposed to be about getting the best
sound from recorded music that's possible.
Those days passed several decades ago when the high end audio business
turned into a freak show of non-sonic so-called improvements and expensiv=
e
gear that any honest technical analysis would say is either vastly
overpriced, mediocre or even abject failures.
Depends on how one measures success or failure. If one is measuring
success by the ability of the equipment to create an aural illusion of
live music the high end gear wins hands down and the Sansa clip with
the IEMs is the abject failure.
Sorry, but you're completely wrong on that front. With right recording
the aural illusion of live music created by such IEM's and just properly
made digital source (well, analog will do as well) is big ways above
anything some high end stereo setup in good listening room could ever
aplay. To even get into a shoting distance one needs something like 8-10
track played in some 3D arangement (and properly recoreded as well... on
that 8-10 tracks, of course).
And if vinyl,
SACD, DVD-A or hi-res downloads provide that and the
commercial CD, aimed at the mass market doesn't because
their marketing priorities are different, then that in no
way diminishes the importance of these "niche" products
that you seem to so offhandedly dismiss.
That's just it, vinyl, performs more poorly while SACD and DVD-A perform =
at
the same subjective level as the humble CD.
Unfortunately this is something that matters on an academic level at
best but in real world application using real world CDs and LPs and
SACDs this simply is not true with the vast majority of commercial
titles that are avialable on multiple formats. so if we want to talk
about the real world this claim is simply incorrect. Of course this
may not be easily discernable using s Sansa Clip+ and Altec-Lansing
IEMs
They are like Porsches and
Ferraris that are matched or outperformed on a road course by my Mercury
Milan. Of course in the real world of cars, Porsches and Ferraris can eas=
ily
walk away from my humble Milan. No Porsches and Ferraris that get their
doors blown off my a 6-cylinder FWD mass-market sedan exist except as
classic cars and that gets back to sentimentality. =A0That much reason st=
ill
rules the world of automobiles.
In the real world of audio my Forsell/Koetsu/ARC/Soundlabs with my
collection of LPs walks away from your Sansa Clip+ and Altec-Lansing
IEMs If one is looking for an illusion of live music in their
playback. I am looking for that. I am all about the aesthetic
experience. That is why I spend the extra money on the stuff I have.
In the real world, gived proper recoring, your $$$$$ equipment stands no
chance against simple (but good) IEMs. Unless you plug some good
headphones / IEMs into your system.
Simply, try artificial head recording, for once
Yes, I'know selection of those is so limited that they could be deemed
virtually unavailable. But you talk here in absolute terms...
rgds
\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)