[Scott[_6_]]

On Oct 5, 6:27=A0pm, bob wrote:
On Oct 5, 4:13=A0pm, Scott wrote:

On Oct 5, 11:08=A0am, bob wrote:
I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question?

That is a fair question. But it really doesn't take a great deal of
research to figure this stuff out. I =A0had no trouble with my dealer's
set abilities in the art of turntable/arm/cartridge set up. He went to
the trouble of explaining things to me and showing me how he did it.

Right, but in that situation you've got to make a judgment about
whether you think this guy knows what he's talking about. You probably
have enough background to make a reasonable judgment. A less
experienced audiophile might not.

I didn't have much of a background at all. But the dealer had an
excellent reputation and there was no getting around the fact that the
many rigs he had on display were playing records very very well.
Things worked out quite well.



IF there is a concern about arm/cartridge resonances all it takes is
the old Hifi News test record to give you the answer. The instructions
on the record jacket tell you how to use it and it is really simple.

And a better answer than just trusting a dealer to know. Probably
better than trusting your own calculations, assuming you know how to
do them.

Yeah, that test record let's you know what you got and it is quite
easy to use.



But I really doubt there are mnay if ANY high end dealers sending
people out the door with mismatched arms and cartridges.

Well there's your dealer, whom you feel is trustworthy. Then there's
the guy who, when I went in to talk about turntables ended up trying
to sell me isolation points (for a CD player!) and a green pen. I
wouldn't trust him to connect a patch cord, and I suspect you wouldn't
either.

That dealer does not sell green pens but he does sell isolation points
and high end high priced cables. His ability to match a cartridge to
an arm and set it up is quite independent of his beliefs on cable
sound. TT set up is a pretty specific skill set and you find out
pretty quickly if you are doing it well with the use of the test
record. Since those days I have learned the ins and outs of the whole
process. My beliefs on cable sound do not have any effect on my skills
in TT set up or arm/cartridge resonance issues.


I don't think your dealer is an anomaly, but I don't think mine is,
either. I suspect that high-end dealers run the gamut, and caveat
emptor is the rule of the day.

But to your knowledge has your dealer actually ever sent anyone out
the door with a mismatched arm and cartridge? That does seem to be the
crisis that I think does not actually exist.



snip

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

This is just poor logic IMO. One can say the same thing about any
number of other beliefs. I won't go into that becaue religion is a
touchy subject but we do trust the judgement of many people in this
world who do believe in things that are outside the boundaries of
science.

You've got a faulty analogy hiding in there. I'm not talking about
trusting a Creationist to fix your car. I'm talking about trusting a
Creationist to teach your kid biology.


I have a bity of a problem with that analogy. Setting up a TT does not
require ANY knowledge of science. It is entirely mechanical. Depending
on the arm it is more about manual dextarity than anything about
science or superstition. It is a lot more like fixing a car. Actually
it's a lot simpler than that. Also comparing a belief in the sound of
cables to creationism is way out of line IMO.

Audio dealers are supposed to
know audio. A guy who believes that part of his product line has
magical qualities doesn't qualify, in my book. Which excludes just
about the whole lot, I'm afraid.

So in your opinion a person who beleives in cable sound is incapable
of being skilled enough to match an arm to a cartridge and properly
set up a turntable rig?



snip

The problem is that it is very limiting in options. You can get
something like this from Rega. Beyond that I'm not sure what
manufacturer would offer a complete package ready to play out of the
box.

To some extent, this is about price points. Almost every table sold
for under a grand comes complete with arm and cartridge installed.
Above entry-level, you're probably right, although I think there are
at least a few companies making both tables and carts who might do
this. One consideration which I think (or at least hope) you'll agree
with is that a modest rig well set up is better than a great rig
poorly set up.

Yes. I would agree with that.



I think we both agree that if you're going to spend thousands of bucks
on a analog rig, you ought to take the time to learn to match the
system and set it up right.


It certainly is not a bad idea.


snip

Blame him for what? Of course it would be really funny to blame
Fremer, the guy who put out a do it yourself DVD on TT set up. That
would have been really funny.

Oh yeah, anyone can buy Michael Fremer's DVD on TT set up and learn
all about these things and more. "The horror, the horror" ;-)

Anyone can self-publish a DVD of himself slobbering for 3 hours. I've
read enough of Fremer's extrusions that I'd put him in the category of
my dealer, above, not yours.

Really? What specifically in his DVD or extrusions you have read would
you say is misguided or technically wrong? Or just plain slobbering? I
have not seen the entire DVD but I did see Fremer do a presentation/
sales pitch of the DVD and while the information was old news to me it
was entirely accurate and important if one is doing their own set up.



I blame Atkinson, first and foremost, for giving Fremer a platform to
misinform his readers.


Whoa! What misinformation has Fremer given potential buyers of arms
and/or cartridges that would lead to a mismatch or improper set up?
That is what we are talking about here.

And second, for failing to measure analog gear
the way he does other components. Doing that would at least add some
counterweight to the baloney that currently dominates the magazine's
analog coverage.


In what way? I certainly would not have a problem with them adding a
nice set of measurments but I don't see how it's going to do anything
to counter the subjective impressions of the reviewers.
That must be what you are refering to when you say "baloney." I have
never caught Fremer making any technical mistakes in his descriptions
of the analog products he reviews. Have you?